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On November 08 2011 16:04 Southlight wrote:
Its cooldown is too long though (6), she really needs CDR but she also needs tanky stuff because of her bizarre role of tanky DPS without really being that innately tanky :[ Really confused about how to itemize her, especially early on :[ Bruta looks all nice on her in theory but her E gives 15% armor pen so there's no real point, and almost all of her shit does magic damage so penetration itemization is bizarre. You can try to spam Q but then she needs ASPD and CDR, the former of which she doesn't put into great effect due to needing to reposition often...
I'm tempted to get Kindlegem after Wriggles but then what? :<
Her AD scaling is not so great, but she scales well with HP.
I've been having some success with the following item build:
boots > wriggles > wit's end > warmogs > mallet > fon/atmas
General notes/experiance:
Her ganks are indeed subpar, but she has very good clear speed. So I go for an invasion most of the time and try to focus on countering the enemy jungler. Unlike lane ganks, jungle fights often start point blank, which allows her to shine and compensate for lack of gap closer. The only time I don't invade is against fast junglers with unpredictable route (lee, olaf).
Usual route: their twingols > their wraiths > my wolves > my wraiths > my twingols(optional).
Boots + pots or cloth + pots. Boots allow for greater safety if you get spotted in their jungle, as not many people can match her 450 movespeed at lvl1. Cloth allows for full clear of small camps, with boots I'm usually unable to kill the last small golem.
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Best shyvannas I've seen go solo lane and something like wits end-->trinity-->warmogs or wriggles+mallet+wits end or something. Scary as hell and can 1v2 almost like renekton after level 6.
Her W is like mundos but doesn't deal 40 true damage per second to herself and gives her speed.
And in dragon form at level 16 she gets +50 magic resist and armour for free I don't know what you mean with "not innately tanky". With just wriggles and wits end and dragon form she has insane surviability in small fights and her ultimate helps her get into big fights without having to go through a whole team to get to squishy targets.
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The second Q hit procs her passive, so really it's a 5.5 second CD at rank 5. As long as you can stick to your target and have Q at max rank your AD scaling/second is better than Renekton's. If you were to somehow get 40% CDR and stick to a target your Q would have a CD of ~2.1 seconds even with no attack speed whatsoever and bring your AD scaling per second to pre ult riven levels.
I don't think it's good enough to build pure AD Navi-style but from my point of view it really sells atmogs or atmallet builds over any other kind of build. In Shyv's case I really think Mallet > Trinity for this reason. Sheen is almost completely wasted on Shyv since the mana is useless and the AP isn't worth the gold so the proc is literally worse than buying a pickaxe. Phage and zeal can be built into other items that suit an AD-ish style better.
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On November 08 2011 22:37 phyvo wrote:
The second Q hit procs her passive, so really it's a 5.5 second CD at rank 5. As long as you can stick to your target and have Q at max rank your AD scaling/second is better than Renekton's. If you were to somehow get 40% CDR and stick to a target your Q would have a CD of ~2.1 seconds even with no attack speed whatsoever and bring your AD scaling per second to pre ult riven levels.
I don't think it's good enough to build pure AD Navi-style but from my point of view it really sells atmogs or atmallet builds over any other kind of build. In Shyv's case I really think Mallet > Trinity for this reason. Sheen is almost completely wasted on Shyv since the mana is useless and the AP isn't worth the gold so the proc is literally worse than buying a pickaxe. Phage and zeal can be built into other items that suit an AD-ish style better.
I agree on some points, but what you overlook is the sheer number of different benefits triforce offers. It gives you AD (albeit a small amount), AS/crit and the phage slow, which is not to be underrated. But the biggest part of what it offers is the burst damage. The sheen proc is not to be underestimated. Whilst the mana may be a wasted stat, it is the ONLY wasted stat, and the burst alone is worth it. Why do you think triforce is a popular lee item? He scales even worse with AP/AS/crit, yet its one of the best items for lee...
Anywho, its 150% of your base attack damage every 2 seconds - for Shyvana this means a 173.55 increase to her next attack. With her Q being reduced by attack speed and several other spells to use to activate the proc, this means that when your sticking to a target, you'll be proccing it close to the 2 second mark. No other item in the game comes close to the damage it offers, and it has the utility by offering a slow, movement speed and a plethora of stats to boot. Its expensive, but definitely worth the investment if you finish it early enough. Farm that triforce baby!
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Again, I hate it when people argue IT GIVES EVERYTHING YOU NEED to justify an item. You state the stats and positive effects it gives as if the number of effects, not the quality or magnitude of each effect, were all that's important. That's exactly the kind of argument newbies use when justifying rushing Nashor's on Skarner or Kayle. TF is obviously a better item but the reasoning is still not great aside from 2 second TF procs and possibly burst being greater than DPS.
Now I could be wrong, after all the end measure of effectiveness is how it plays out in game. But at the same time I think it takes more than just a few games to decide the usefulness of an item for a champ unless the item is really horrible or really good because the noise in every game is quite high.
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The only thing Triforce gives Shyvana that's noticeable is the proc, in which you might as well get Sheen, or you might as well really just get an Infinity Edge or something (works out to around the same amount of damage aggregate due to, AFAIK, Sheen not proccing off the second hit of Q). I've mentioned it in the Irelia thread as well but I simply don't like Triforce as much due to the fact that it gives you a lot of stats, but depending on your playstyle most of those stats aren't useful. I also don't feel Wit's End is useful on Shyvana because she does a lot of repositioning in teamfights, so that her ASPD isn't as useful... she gets decent innate passive mitigation via armor/MR (though trivial) so that it's really just more efficient to get HP... which unfortunately is expensive :[
Edit:
It definitely may depend on your team comp, but especially if you run off jungle I don't think Triforce is effective on Shy at all due to needing to be beefy.
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Tank items + hogging red buff is probably the best way to make use of all of shyvanna's abilities.
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On November 09 2011 01:02 Juicyfruit wrote:
Tank items + hogging red buff is probably the best way to make use of all of shyvanna's abilities.
Hahah, the issue I ran into yesterday at shit-tier solo q (my first solo q games!) was that her late-game scaling is so god-awful that tanky Shyvanna feels utterly worthless. Other team was like OMG SHYVANA CARRY and I was like holy shit with how fed I am this is retarded. The issue may have been the second Warmog (instead of like IE) so maybe Atmog is still just "the way to go" mid-game, but yeah. Yargh.
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Haha is it really that bad? I guess she's more of a mid-game hero but I can't really imagine her sucking because dragon form + W is like a potential 170 magic dps with a 0.4AD scaling (at least I think the trail + the innate burn aura stack), which is more damage than almost anyone else can do at that stage even if she just ran around in circles, l0l.
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Her midgame is great with that crazy 170 damage W per second, but beyond her burst she doesn't really bring anything else... so then in end-game when people have like 100 MR and your 170 magic damage with 0.4 scale and only 15% magic pen is trying to kill people with some 3000 hp things don't look so good :[ Her only real scaling skill is Q, but all it is is a bad Riven passive (+100% damage on next hit, albeit AoE, so it's like Riven's W without the CC) :/ Kinda tough. She ends up being more of a tank without CC.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
The wording from Q suggests it should apply all forms on on-hit effects on both strikes, so would it be possible to go an AD build and just AoE crit down people for the sustained damage? Just theory crafting here though.
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Is Shyvana as vulnerable to kiting as Udyr is? That's the main worry that made me choose not to buy her- getting kited around all day while having no gap closer is very un-fun.
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While in theory you can do crazy stuff like build AD and super cleave everyone (or better still, Tiamat's), in practical situations it rarely works. Q's AoE is just too restrictive for it to be reliable (small AoE and only in front of her). Even if people are clumped at the start of the fight you're only going to get off one Q before everyone has naturally spread out.
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On November 09 2011 02:07 Zato-1 wrote:
Is Shyvana as vulnerable to kiting as Udyr is? That's the main worry that made me choose not to buy her- getting kited around all day while having no gap closer is very un-fun.
She does have a gap closer, and enough speed to stay on target.
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On November 09 2011 02:10 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 02:07 Zato-1 wrote:
Is Shyvana as vulnerable to kiting as Udyr is? That's the main worry that made me choose not to buy her- getting kited around all day while having no gap closer is very un-fun. She does have a gap closer, and enough speed to stay on target.
She has a gap closer with the CD of an ult, which is better than anything Udyr has as far as initiation goes, but as soon as someone flashes away I'd imagine she goes right back into "gonna get kited 'till kingdom come" status (of course, I don't know for sure and this was the issue of my original question). As for speed, Udyr has a speed boost as well, it's just woefully inadequate if you ask me.
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Hmm, I think the same can be said for any melee without low-cd blink though. Even nocturne/rammus can't follow up on a defensive flash after their initiation without chasing the target down with their own flash or try to truck on through with a movespeed advantage.
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Yes, hence the Atmog -> Infinity Edge idea (though that's a lot of money!). I'm not sure that Sheen procs affect both strikes, as I'd imagine it's treated the same as MF's DU and only Sheens the first and not the second. (sorry for the late response, @work).
Shyvanna has a funky thing going on where she offensively plays a bit like Trynd and Xin, you walk in and THEN pull off your blink. The issue is that her blink drags, so if you overshoot you fuck up your team, if you undershoot you miss. Bit awkward. If the other team has a blowback though (Grag Janna) it's a fucking bitch to do anything, and you end up reliant on your team. You also get punished for being kited because her W has high CD while being dependent on landing blows, so if they kite you for 3 seconds you're fucked.
I dunno why people say she's OP lol. If she's rolling she's pretty funny but she's got a few crippling problems atm ;; Still love playing her though, have always been a sucker for super high mobility heroes.
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On November 09 2011 02:27 Juicyfruit wrote:
Hmm, I think the same can be said for any melee without low-cd blink though. Even nocturne/rammus can't follow up on a defensive flash after their initiation without chasing the target down with their own flash or try to truck on through with a movespeed advantage.
Noct/Rammus can CC a target so that even if it flashes away afterwards, it'll still be in a bad spot... But that's beside the point. Udyr is very susceptible to being kited compared to other melee champions - Rammus has a long duration Taunt, Noct has a fear and a spellshield and can ignore collision, Irelia has a legit gap closer + hard CC + reduced CC duration against her, Jarvan has 3 forms of AoE CC, two of which move him, Riven can use Broken Wings to pretty much ignore slow effects for a short time and has two short CCs, Gangplank has two forms of slow + orange, Lee Sin is super mobile, etc.
Having established that Udyr's kit makes him more susceptible to being kited than most melee champions, my question is: does Shyvana fit into that "comparably easy to kite" category in the experience of those who've played her? I imagine she's less critically weak vs. poke as she's capable of initiating with her ult, but the combination of "need to stay in melee to be effective" + "have sub-par CC for a melee champion" + "have no way to better deal with CC being used against me" + "have no spammable gap-closer" seems like a losing proposition for me.
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As long as you have red buff her constant speed boost allows her to stay in range, provided there isn't a snare or a push-back (Janna/Grag). So yes, it's difficult to "target" someone, as you often hit whatever you can hit. Mid-game this is offset by playing like Singed (don't need to hit someone in particular as long as you hit someone and poop fire everywhere) but late-game when flamepoop does nothing she ends up being more of an anti-tank... hence the awkward itemization.
Edit:
Specifically, the issue is that Udyr has 0 way of catching up once snared; Shyvana has an extra. If the extra gets countered though then she's in more dire straights than any other melee hero because her speed boost wears off and its cooldown is bloody long.
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On November 09 2011 03:15 Southlight wrote:
As long as you have red buff her constant speed boost allows her to stay in range, provided there isn't a snare or a push-back (Janna/Grag). So yes, it's difficult to "target" someone, as you often hit whatever you can hit. Mid-game this is offset by playing like Singed (don't need to hit someone in particular as long as you hit someone and poop fire everywhere) but late-game when flamepoop does nothing she ends up being more of an anti-tank... hence the awkward itemization.
Edit:
Specifically, the issue is that Udyr has 0 way of catching up once snared; Shyvana has an extra. If the extra gets countered though then she's in more dire straights than any other melee hero because her speed boost wears off and its cooldown is bloody long.
Okay, that makes sense. I'm being more careful than usual when it comes to buying champions, because I think Shyvana's classic skin is awful so if I were to buy her and play her I'd also have to buy her Ironscale skin :p
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