Patch 1.0.0.136: Fury of the Dragonborn: Updated tooltip to more accurately reflect actual values in game. Burnout: Fixed a bug that caused it to last longer than intended. Dragon's Descent: Passive armor and magic resist bonus reduced to 10/15/20 from 15/20/25. Several item changes affecting Shyvana - life steal nerf (on scepter, wriggles and BT) and a new item added to build from Hexdrinker - Maw of Malmortius. Patch 1.0.0.134:Fixed a bug where Flame Breath could shred the armor of shred-immune units ( Dragon, Baron Nashor). Dragon's Descent allied ultimate HUD indicator will now go grey immediately after using. Patch 1.0.0.130 No Shyvana champion changes. Jungle remake, health potion changes and wriggles proc damage reduced. Patch 1.0.0.129 No Shyvana champion changes. Item change: Wriggle's Lantern lifesteal down to 15% from 18%. New masteries introduced. Various summoner spell tweaks. Patch 1.0.0.128 - Shyvana released.
Shyvana is a champion that I have enjoyed incredibly since release. She’s awesome fun, has great graphics, a sweet dance and turns into a dragon! She’s a threat to anyone and a great addition to most teams. An all-around solid pick that can be played in several different and fun ways.
I play Shyvana mostly as a solo top, and a tanky dps. Her role is to get up in the enemies face, and focus down a single target in a team fight. She can take some punishment, and makes a good pusher.
I always find it funny when people say things like “Oh Shyvana is bad, don’t pick her” or “I’ve yet to see a decent Shyvana” I haven’t had a bad game with her yet, farm well and you’ll be in a strong position no matter what.
The aim of this guide is to lead you through her abilities and their subtleties, itemisation focusing on the why of items and the core build that I’ve had success with, her play style, including laning, team fights and other general information, a look at where Shyvana fits into the team and wheither or not you should be a jungle Shyvana.
Passive: Fury of the Dragonborn: Twin Bite: Each auto attack reduces the cooldown of Twin Bite by 0.5 seconds. Burnout: Each auto attack extends the duration of Burnout by 1 second to a maximum of 6 extra seconds. Flame Breath: Each autoattack that hits debuffed targets will deal 15% of the ability's damage as extra magic damage. Dragon’s DescentEach of her autottacks will generate 2 Fury. This will allow for Shyvana to prolong the duration of Dragon Form by attacking. Things to know about your passive: + Show Spoiler +
None of the effects work on towers.
Twin Bite (Q): (Active): Shyvana next autoattack will strike twice in one swift movement. The second attack will deal physical damage equal to a percentage of her total attack damage. Both attacks will trigger on-hit effects and Fury of the Dragonborn effects. Dragon Form: Twin Bite will damage all units in front of Shyvana when she uses her next autottack instead of just her target. Each unit hit will be dealt on-hit effects and grant Fury twice. Scaling: + Show Spoiler +
It proc’s items, like Wit’s End and Madred’s (both). It resets your attack timer. It works on towers. It cleaves in dragon form. The cleave counts as 2 hits per target, synergising with your ult, giving rage for each, and increasing the timer for W.
Burnout (W): (Active): During the next 3 seconds, Shyvana will deal magic damage each second to nearby enemies and her movement speed will be greatly increased. Shyvana's movement speed bonus itself will be reduced multiplicatively by 15% for every second that passes. Dragon Form: Shyvana now scorches the earth where she walks, leaving a trail of fire for 5 seconds that will continually deal magic damage to enemies that pass over it. Scaling: + Show Spoiler +
Remember the speed buff fades faster than the damaging effect and that it fades over time. Your Q gives you 2 attacks worth of time increase from your passive.
Flame Breath (E): (Active): Shyvana unleashes a fireball forward in a line that will hit the first enemy it hits, dealing magic damage to it and debuffing them by reducing their armour by 15% for 4 seconds. Dragon Form: Flame Breath engulfs all units in a cone in front of Shyvana. Scaling: + Show Spoiler +
Pretty standard, you want it up if you’re fighting someone mostly for the armour pen. If your zoned from your minions for some odd reason, you can use it for last hitting. You can poke with it too, but tbh it’s not particularly damaging if you’re following the skill order I take.
Dragon’s Descent (R): (Passive): Shyvana reinforces her scales, increasing her armour and magic resistance. These defensive bonuses are doubled while in Dragon Form. (Active): Shyvana transforms into a dragon and dashes to a target location. Enemies along her path take magic damage and are pushed toward her target location. This ability has no cooldown but to use it Shyvana needs 100 Fury. Shyvana generates 1 Fury every 1.5 seconds while in Human Form. While in Dragon Form, she will lose 6 fury every second and once the Fury bar is empty she will return to her normal state. Scaling: + Show Spoiler +
You carry people a set distance, so sometimes flying the maximum length isn’t the best idea. Learn how far you carry someone and aim to land with them (In most cases). You can use it to chase over walls (obviously) but it has a longer range than flash so it can make chasing over walls etc very easy.
You can use it to completely shutdown a chase. If the enemy team is chasing yours, sometimes the best thing to do is carry them all away from your team. Using it to escape: You can fly one wall, flash the next or visa versa and make some huge distance. Combine this with your W and it makes you very hard to catch. If you take flight with your W active, you’ll leave a trail in the area you’ve flown over.
When you hit level 6, you instantly gain 100 fury. Also, your fury builds up whilst dead, and dying doesn’t reduce it to zero. Dragon's Descent has a minimum duration of 16,66 seconds if no auto attacks are made. With an attack speed of 1, the maximum duration is 25 seconds. With 1.5 it's 33,33 seconds. With an attack speed of 2.5, the maximum duration is 100 seconds, assuming that she is constantly attacking. These calculations do not take in account, that Twin Bite doubles the amount of Fury gained and can hit multiple targets in dragonform.
R>W>Q>E, taking one point in E at level 4 is my preferred order. W scales the hardest with level rank, and also the increased movement speed you get from levelling it is nice. Taking Q second to reduce the cooldown and increase the damage is better than E because the E is mostly for the armour debuff.
Summoner Skills: Masteries: My preference is an offensive mastery build: Other masteries work too, depending on your role. What is very important is taking Arcane Knowledge, as your W, E and R deal magic damage. This magic pen increases your damage significantly. The thing with the new masteries is that there are many different combinations that would work. This is just a basic one thats built around offense, you might want to change it for the movement speed and buff duration from util. or for some extra health from def. Experiment and find which masteries work best for you. Runes: I play with a very aggressive rune setup, and my item choices allow me to do this. I use: Quints: 3.33 ARP x3 Marks: 1.7% AS x9 Seals: 1.08 health/lvl x9 Glyphs: 0.64% AS x9 You could choose to use scaling AS runes, armour yellows or flat health yellows too.
Flash: Yes. Almost always flash is the best choice of summoner spell, Shyvana is no exception. You don’t really want to be using your ult as an escape, so having flash lets you use your ult, and flash away for some very strong intiates and other situational play.
Ignite: Is usually my second summoner spell of choice. The ability to shut down the healing of another is very strong (especially in those tanky dps fights) and the burst of ignite can help you secure some kills in lane that otherwise wouldn’t happen.
Exhaust: A strong second choice to ignite, and something that you should definitely consider if nobody else on your team is taking it. As Shyvana your usually all up in people’s faces, which means you can exhaust almost anyone at any time in a team fight, and that can make a critical difference.
Teleport: A good choice. I don’t like teleport because it locks you into a “passive” lane especially if your enemy has an aggressive summoner spell (ignite/exhaust) in its place. Teleport is a very good choice for a solo top lane, as it allows you to assist your team in dragon fights or pushing lanes. It gives you much better opportunity to farm, but in my opinion is not a particular good spell in solo Q because it’s much harder to co-ordinate a good teleport.
The other summoner spells have situations that they can be a useful pick in, but it would be up to personal discretion to decide that based on the game. Flash + one of those 3 is very standard, and there is little reason to vary from that.
- Strong laner (Good early game damage/flat damage) - Can be played as a dps or tank, with several builds and styles available for each - Ult is good at moving enemies for the benefit of your team -> to setup others ults or to move someone away. Can also be used to break enemy ults, such as Malz or Kat. - Fast jungle - Good pusher and farmer
Wit’s End – A good “all round” choice, adding significantly to your damage and giving some survivability. Madred’s bloodrazor – The strongest “offensive” choice, but still gives some armour, continuing along the “tanky dps” path. Frozen Mallet – Adds a fair amount of health, a strong slow (incase tri isn’t enough?) and has good synergy with Atma’s Atma’s Impaler – A great choice against any heavy physical team, and a strong choice if you build a health item to go with it. Bloodthrister – Gives the most attack damage of any item in the game, and a huge amount of lifesteal. This will add significantly to your damage output and increase your survivability. Black Cleaver – A good choice of item as it gives more attack speed, and some useful armour pen, in a form that synergises well with what you have (quints + masteries)
So this leads to several different build around the same core: Fully offensive: + Show Spoiler +
Wriggles + Beserkers + Triforce + Guardian + Madred’s + Black Cleaver -> Swap your Wriggles for Bloodthirster very late game. This build will give you insane damage, with a good amount of survivability. A perfectly viable way of playing.
is a very good item. The reason why I don’t use it is because I want my triforce asap. I take wriggles as the one “intermediate” item before triforce as it gives HUGE sustainability, survivability and pushing power. I see Ghostblade as an item I’d want to have as early as possible, yet I don’t want to divert from triforce to get it. It’s a brilliant item, and good on Shy just like many others. Its stat’s synergise well. If it’s something you use regularly, you could fit it in after triforce, if you don’t feel the need for an immediate Guardian, or possibly before if you don’t mind waiting for the CC, burst and movement triforce provides.
Similar reasoning to ghostblade. It’s a good item, not nearly as good as ghostblade, but the magic pen is not to be underestimated. Personally I can’t justify building it before triforce or instead of wriggles. When I’ve tried taking it early, its good, but losing the sustain of the wriggles you’d have hurts.
As already mentioned, a large amount of Shyvana’s damage is magical, AP isn’t completely wasted on her, and if you have a large number of proc items (Madred’s especially) you’ll notice the extra damage. I haven’t done the maths on it to see when its viable, it’s a reasonable choice, but personally one that I don’t consider.
Shyvana scales very well with attack speed. Yet this isn’t my item of choice. Sure the proc is great, but it doesn’t synergise as well with your Q as say, Wit’s End. Also, it provides no other stats of use, just plain attack speed. Personally I’d take Wit’s End over this any day.
isn’t a terrible choice of items. The spell vamp/life steal are both good stats, the AP isn’t wasted either. My biggest problem with this item is the cost involved in getting one is large. After the recent nerf, it doesn’t give as much attack damage as one might like as Shyvana. Shyvana already wants such expensive items, maybe this is something you could build as a last item, but its hard to justify it over other items or building it earlier.
Sorcerer’s shoes + malady + wit’s end + Sword of the Divine + Madred’s bloodrazor + Hextech Gunblade -> swap malady for a voidstaff. This build would give you a very mixed damage source, and a lot of damage at that. The reason why I don’t like it is because to maximise your early game damage you want shoes + malady first, but this doesn’t leave you with much sustainability or survivability, especially in comparison to a wriggles opening.
Berserker’s + Wriggles + Bloodthirster + Guardian + Infinity Edge + Last Whisper -> Swap Wriggles for Bloodthirster This build would give you straight up insane damage. You’d be doing a lot of burst damage with your Q and your W would be leaving a trail of death more so than usual. A viable build, but really ignores the synergy of your abilities with attack speed.
Building 100% tank on Shyvana isn’t the best idea. She doesn’t have much CC, and as such needs some damage to pose a threat so that you’ll actually be somewhat focused and therefore useful in the role of a tank. Doing something like: Ghostblade + Wriggles + Merc treads + frozen mallet + Atma’s + Force of Nature or Frozen mallet + Atma’s + Warmog’s + Force of Nature + Wit’s End + Merc treads Gives you the amount of damage you need to maintain a threatening nature, whilst making you an incredibly durable tank.
Berserker’s + Blood thirster + Bloodthirster + Madreds + Black Cleaver + Tri force I haven’t done the math on specific builds, there would be other builds that beat the damage output of this build *at certain stages in the game* but late game, this would wreck pretty much everything.
In most cases you’ll be fighting a melee champion top lane. The extra armour from wriggles makes it a strong choice. Even against a non-melee champion, the armour makes a difference at low levels if you’re fighting them (auto attacks + minion damage adds up quickly). Wriggles give you a free ward – something never to be underrated. Shyvana pushes the lane a lot when farming, especially if your using your abilities.
Having river warded 100% of the time means you’ll never die to ganks. Later on the ward can be incredibly useful as you team begins to run out of space to carry them, and in the usual way wards are useful as the game progresses. The sustainability of wriggle’s is never to be overlooked. In a team fight, it will keep you in there much longer than your enemies will antipiate. The sustain it provides in lane is awesome.
Last but not least is the control it gives you over the jungle, dragon and baron. It allows you to ward these, but also to do any of them a lot quicker than expected. Your Q can “double proc” wriggles meaning you can waste dragon/baron. The proc also increases your lane pushing speed making you an even stronger tower threat.
Guardian adds a good balance of armour and magic resist. Combine this with your passive armour/mr from your ult, and then the increased amount you receive from Dragon form, and your suddenly a lot more tank than most expect.
The guardian also has an odd effect on a lot of player’s where they would prefer not to focus you, because the rez punishes them for doing so (assuming your team is hot on your heels). Should you die in dragon form, and get rezed by guardian, you continue to be in dragon form, which means it synergises even better than anticipated.
For the price, guardian’s provides a solid amount of stats and a rather nice passive effect that you can take strong advantage of. The ability to initiate with your ult and have no second thoughts is great, knowing that even if you get bursted to nothing, you’ll end up rezzed in the middle of their team, and angry dragon with your team all of them and in a great position (assuming your ult was a good decision!)
I use my core build for several reasons: - The ability to deviate into several different pathways late game - Synergy with Shyvana’s abilities - Synergy with my rune choices - Cloth + 5 pots opening allows you to win every solo top lane, unless they also start cloth and pots, and you make a critical mistake - A balance – survivability, damage and sustainability in a perfect balance. Gives you a powerful 1v1, team fight capability or a sustainable lane
Jungling is quite possible as Shyvana. You’ll need to take smite, and it’s something you should be taking as a jungler anyway. The way I go about jungling with Shyvana: Swap your yellow runes to flat armour Take Offensive Mastery and Plentiful Bounty in offense tree (+ dmg to minions and improved smite) Start with a vamp scepter Same skill order, starting at wolves. Ask for a leash Proceed to wraithes, smite the blue one. Mini golems then return home. Buy cloth armour and a pot. Proceed to blue, offer it to your mid lane. Clear the smaller camps, and return home. Buy boots and potions, kill red and clear a few smaller camps. Start looking for a gank, you’ll be 6 with a red buff.
It’s the most efficient use of gold. It’s a great sustain route, which means you can be available to assist in lanes at almost any points. So if someone is fighting it out for first blood, head on over. Or if someone needs help, gank with the intent of forcing the enemy to back up somewhat.
Shyvana is a strong jungler once she gets a few levels in her (basically 5 onwards). Sub 6, her ganks aren’t particularly strong, which is why I leave off red until I’m ready for it. With Shyvana your ganks are about your strong damage, and your ult, rather than any CC you offer like some other junglers. Farm the jungle and be in the right spots at the right time.
Choosing Shyvana as a jungler isn’t the best decision and it isn’t the worst. You’d jungle as Shyvana if: You’ve already picked and nobody else takes a jungle. Your team could specifically use Shyvana, and a jungler. Your team is happy enough having a high damage, low cc jungle that is better at controlling the jungle than ganking or has some strong cc to assist in ganks. If you’re thinking about using Shyvana as a jungler, carefully consider why, as she is definitely better as a solo top. (She makes great use of the farm, and can beat down most people pretty easily. She offers great ganking opportunities to her jungler if she is in a top lane, as she has strong damage to go with any cc they offer.)
Simply stated Shyvana is a beast in the "new" jungle. The new jungle rewards clear speed incredibly, and allows you to adjust your routes so you can be in different places than you may have previously been. Ive been opening boots + 3 potions, with a bit of help on blue you can do wolves -> blue (Use your first potion as you start this, depending on your leash) -> wraithes -> red -> wolves -> wraithes -> golems. The benefit of this route is it puts you all over the jungle, meaning if someone is looking to be having trouble, or getting ganked, race there! If not, finish your route, buy a vamp scep + ward(s) + potion and continue to jungle quickly looking for good ganking opportunities. Shyvana can farm the new jungle well, and ganking doesnt cost her as much as other junglers because she is such a fast clearer. Typically I end up between the mid and duo lane in terms of levels, if you get some successful ganks, you'll be higher than mid. The most important thing is to not overcommitt to ganks, you don't want to die in a gank (more so than before) because of the respawn rate on the jungle. Previously it was "ok" to trade down a kill in a 1v1 lane, where you'd take an assist + kill compared to an assist, but now I feel that it's better to retreat and continue farming the jungle.
Shyvana is a VERY good farmer and it is incredibility important to capitalise on this fact. Having a wriggles allows you to stand in a minion wave and AoE them down quickly with W. If someone gets near you, you can threaten them with death and continue to farm!
Forging an advantage by making use of your amazing farming abilities is what will set you apart as a great Shyvana. I’ve had CS well into the 200’s by 25 minutes. If you want to scale ridiculously into the late game, farm your lane well early on, and don’t stop farming as the game progresses.
Level 2 is the earliest you want to be deliberately aggressive. If you push the wave the right amount level 1, you can hit level 2 and be aggressive with a solid minion advantage between waves. This means you won’t take too much damage from the enemy minions and if they fight back and chase you, they’ll take a lot more damage than that might expect. Wait for them to come in for a last hit, activate W, catch up, hit them once, Q once and see how they react.
That combo is a significant amount of damage and they might feel the need to either run straight up, or trade. Should they choose to run, you can let them go, avoiding minion damage etc. and just repeat the harass when cooldowns and minion position permits. Or you can chase hitting into their back, letting your W do more damage.
Should they respond by attempting to trade, the best answer is to drop back behind your minions. They’ll commit some effort to trading back, then as the minions aggro onto them, turn around and fight, using a potion and your ignite. If you do this correctly, you might score a kill, if not you’ve got a very strong advantage already.
Similar play to above works well here. Get the feel for your opponent, poke where you can. Stand in the minion wave and last hit, if they try and stop you, activate W, hit, Q. Starting with 5 potions should give you complete control of the minion line in a war of attrition. Try to avoid fighting someone straight up if they have started Doran’s and have a similar health level to you. Focus on last hitting and whittling them down.
Become more aggressive. Your ult allows you to: escape if necessary, burst them should a fight start, close a distance to start that fight, carry them into a gank, carry them into your minions, carry them up against their tower for a dive and generally push them around.
Once you have your wriggles, sustain yourself, and be aggressive in between. Don’t let up, win control of the farm, force them off the farm under the tower if you’re doing particularly well.
Save your ult! Its burst and movement can be useful for initiating the fight 1v1, but usually it’s better to save it for that moment when they try to get away, or to carry them in an unexpected way, or to give you that last little bit of burst. It’s also useful for closing a flash distance, leaving your flash open to get out from under a tower if need be. Remember your ult makes your W leave a trail, so if your low and they are too, backing up can be a good idea, as chasing you gets them punished.
Don’t give up! Shyvana is very strong at taking on multiple champions at a time. Her ult gives her fantastic AoE damage which you can use to your advantage. You Q will suddenly be giving you a lot more lifesteal than you expect, for example 2v1, 4 hits lifesteal anyone?
Under a tower, running away from your tower then ulting those diving you back towards it is very strong. Use your W to move away from them, forcing them to chase in the fire, then before it fades turn to Q, boosting the duration and maximising your damage. Remember that you can get away from a large number of situations with a flash or flight and then a W speed boost, or even doing all three.
Don’t be scared to initiate, especially once you have GA. Your ult allows you to go right to the back and turn on the team, killing the AD or AP carry and AoEing the team as you do so. You can play a more passive role if you team has a tank, using your ult to peel for your team. Your role in team fights is to focus down a single target then move on.
As such, choosing your targets is important. AD carries tend to be the most vulnerable, followed by supports and AP carries. Use your ult to get to your desired target and make a mess. It’s important that if your target does legitimately give you the slip, you rapidly switch to the next appropriate target.
Being in the centre of an enemy team requires that you keep up the lifesteal to sustain such a play. Your ability to chase down people is high, due to your W and triforce slow. Make use of it, it’s not just your ult that makes you a strong chaser. Get the hang of when to use your ult and when to save it for that moment. Remember that in a losing fight, Shyvana’s ult can be the difference between the enemies getting an ace and only 2 kills. Remember that your Q offers a significant amount of burst lifesteal, so running into a bush on low HP to bait enemies and turning for an auto + Q can give you a sudden burst of health and cost your enemies a large amount of time. Shyvana can maximise damage in team fights by constantly attacking, extending the duration of her ult. Then, by making fully use of that ult, by keeping as many targets as possibly in front of her.
Most of her AoE dmg is frontal (Q and E) so by trying to keep several targets close, and in front it maximises damage and allows for an easier time switching targets once your desired target is dead. Remember, constantly attacking gives you sustain from your lifesteal and a longer ult and W duration, these are all important so don’t chase someone faster than you through the middle of an enemy team.
Shyvana is a fantastic pusher. Having Wriggle’s allows you to push waves, her Q allows you to push towers very well, and you’ll have a reasonable amount of AD and a pretty good AS. Her W AoE’s waves very quickly at higher levels. Make use of your amazing pushing ability by frequently pushing out lanes to the tower in midgame, and pushing the tower with Q if the opportunity presents.
The best thing about Shyvana as a pusher is her ability to escape. She moves incredibly quickly with her burst movement from W. Having a Wriggle’s allows you to have decent vision nearby and you can always use your ult to further your escape. You can 1v1 almost every champion reliably which means you needed worry about over extending unless several people are coming to punish you for it. Pushing in the mid game allows you to get some heavy farm, draws the enemy to your presence and allows your team to punish them for that.
When your team needs a strong solo top, Shyvana is a great choice. She fits into a role of tanky dps, or can be played as a full tank. She does very good single target damage, and is great a picking out and sticking to a target. She offers good AoE damage and the movement component of her ult can give your team a strong edge. Shyvana is good against the vast majority of solo top lanes which makes her a stable pick.
I feel it’s too early yet to talk about what heroes she specifically counters at top and those she is countered by. To be honest I feel that she doesn’t have any direct counters top, which is why she’s a strong pick. Olaf can be tricky to deal with for the first few levels, whereas Jax is quite easily dealt with and might be an example of someone Shyvana counters.
Cheers for reading my guide. Feedback below would be appreciated as it’s the first I’ve done. My little brag: + Show Spoiler +
In the first few days of playing her, managed to fill up the match history with Shyvana wins :D
TL:DR? Shyvana is a fun champion, play her and find out for yourself!
EDIT: Updated for Patch 1.0.0.129 and added a new masteries layout reflecting the changes to masteries and put a limited discussion to go with it EDIT: Updated for Patch 1.0.0.130 and added a discussion on the new jungle, and how I've been going about it. EDIT: Up to date for Patch 1.0.0.136 with latest changes listed
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to run GA as your single defensive item in builds where you're only getting one--you get natural resists from you ultimate and its HP/healing that you're lacking. Defensive stats are multiplicative off each other, meaning you want to buy the defensive stat that you're LACKING, not stack the ones that you already get passively. If you need a single defensive item, it should be either Warmog's or Mallet.
I've been going Boots->Wriggles->Mercs->Sunfire and it seems pretty effective. Huge life boost, and allows her to do more AoE damage with or without your ulti up. I usually follow it up with a Mallet. More of a tanky option, allows you to find and stick to enemy carries, or peel assassins/bruisers off of your carriers pretty effectively as well.
On November 06 2011 02:22 iCanada wrote: Have you thought about building a Sunfire Cape?
I've been going Boots->Wriggles->Mercs->Sunfire and it seems pretty effective. Huge life boost, and allows her to do more AoE damage with or without your ulti up. I usually follow it up with a Mallet. More of a tanky option, allows you to find and stick to enemy carries, or peel assassins/bruisers off of your carriers pretty effectively as well.
/shrug
Almost all of the combine cost on Sunfire is paying for the AoE damage passive--you basically get no stat increase over Chain Vest + Giant's Belt. Warmog's + Atmas or Mallet + Atma's are a much better way to spend your gold--more cost-effective survivability, and probably similar increase in damage.
On November 06 2011 02:19 TheYango wrote: It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to run GA as your single defensive item in builds where you're only getting one--you get natural resists from you ultimate and its HP/healing that you're lacking. Defensive stats are multiplicative off each other, meaning you want to buy the defensive stat that you're LACKING, not stack the ones that you already get passively. If you need a single defensive item, it should be either Warmog's or Mallet.
Adding a health item on top of a GA is a very good way to actually become tank. But the idea of a GA by itself is that it gives you a reasonably balanced amount of arm/MR to get started. With that core, you have enough health to still make use of your high resistances, but if you want to be more tanky, fill it out with some more health.
By having a reasonable amount of arm/MR it stops you from being instantly bursted to death when you fly into a large group of people. From there, your lifesteal kicks in to sustain you "enough" for a lot of fights. The other thing to remember with GA is the rez it offers. I tend to be a lot more aggressive with my initiation of fights, knowing that I'll almost certainly die for my effort, but my team will be in a much stronger position. Then, you get rezzed, suddenly in the middle of a teamfight thats going well :D
As for sunfire cape - its a great item, and a good choice against a melee centric team, but its not usually something I build with Shy, as mention above, your paying for the damage. Id usually buy a giants belt, then build an Atma's and finish the belt into something else. Sunfire would be a choice, but rarely do you want THAT much armour (ie GA + sunfire + atma's + wriggles armour)
On November 06 2011 02:11 MoonBear wrote: While your effort is appreciated, all guides in the LoL Subforum need to follow this template.
Also, since you need to be in people's face to get your AoE Dragon spam on, any particular reason you go Greaves>Mercs?
Yes, I tend not to necessarily build attack speed with Shy, but she works very well with it. Obviously against some teams, merc would be vital, but against most, I get away with greaves. The biggest advantage to building greaves is that they are signficantly cheaper. Which means you get them faster, and having boots 2 earlier is always good, and that it is a very efficient source of attack speed.
Against a heavy magic team with lots of cc, Merc's would always be the superior pick. But in general, I like having my boots earlier and having that bit of extra attack speed greaves offer
For jungle Shyvana I just run aspd red blue, AD quints (might change to aspd), flat armor yellows, open cloth armor + 5 pots and then wolf -> blue -> wraith -> double -> back -> wolf -> red -> w/e you want. Wriggles -> Boot -> Treads -> HP is the way I've been building, either Funfire or Atmogs. I also don't hesitate to take an early oracles for clearing, and she's great at counterjungling because she has such great escape and ridiculously fast creep clear. The cloth+5 allows her to maintain high hp until Wriggles so she's robust, I know Stonewall has that jungle video of Vamp first but I don't like it; it's slower and more dangerous.
I like it. The reason why I suggested starting with a Vamp is because you can manage it, and save yourself a good number of pots doing it. It is slower, but you can close that difference quite quickly with Shy.
Starting boots/pots makes a fair bit of sense though, and all the points Stonewall makes about Shy's terrible ganks and control jungling are spot on. I'll have to give it a shot the way hes doing it, looks pretty beast!
I've personally found that Trinity Force is pretty garbage on Shyvana. I've also found that I need Warmog's immediately after I get Wit's End. The thing Shyvana does best is disrupt the enemy team and draw threat. You need defensive items like Warmogs, Atmas, and Frozen Mallet to not instantly die. Having Trinity as part of your core will greatly delay your key defensive items.
Imo, general build for her goes something like: Wriggle's -> Mercs -> Wit's End -> Warmogs -> Atmas/Phage -> Frozen Mallet. Sell Wriggle's for BT if game goes long enough.
Boot-first worked fine, I like it, although it does slow down jungle after the first wraith+double jack. I think you need a really strong leash to do it really safely. End-game I've been favoring Atmogs, as I feel like her scaling is too bad (on the AD-side) to itemize for it entirely. Usually the weakness of Atmog is the midgame but her midgame is so ridiculous that you can actually surprisingly get away with it.
I don't like his runeset though, primarily because I've been opening on wolf and then going blue. Been favoring AD quints, aspd red/blue and armor yellow.
i don't really understand the point of vamp first no pots leaves you vulnerable and delays your razer. razer seems key on shyvana because of the double proc chance on Q i can see why boots first is good but vamp first makes 0 sense to me br0s
i still haven't gotten a really good set of masteries/runes to work on her yet though gonna keep trying
Played Shyvana for the first time yesterday and zoomzoom dargan is pretty fun. I guess I see Caller's appeal to MS Garen but it's still spec'd horribly. I digress...
Boots first, is this build dependent entirely on your team giving you a huge leash or what's the path here? I can't imagine her doing a full clear with an opening less than Cloth + 5.
On November 07 2011 05:42 NeoIllusions wrote: Played Shyvana for the first time yesterday and zoomzoom dargan is pretty fun. I guess I see Caller's appeal to MS Garen but it's still spec'd horribly. I digress...
Boots first, is this build dependent entirely on your team giving you a huge leash or what's the path here? I can't imagine her doing a full clear with an opening less than Cloth + 5.
I need a decent leash on golem but even with a minimal one I can generally do Wolf -> Blue -> enemy wraith -> enemy minigolem and trololol back home without a hitch.
Edit: Alternatively you can just jack their wraiths after blue and then clear your own wraith -> minigol, after a quick level 3 gank on mid (can often force a Flash).
Im a crappy lol newb and I find her awesomely fun. Her ability to adjust itemized is bar none my fave ability in noob pub. Great article and I really learned some stuff from it. My only complaint is her suggested items are total crap and might turn people off her because if you build her the way they suggest you will suck horridly.
EDIT: to be clear my only complaint is not with the guide but with the suggested items when you play with her by riot
On November 08 2011 14:17 Southlight wrote: God her scaling is atrocious :[
Seems like ultimately, her scaling is all about spamming her Q a lot, and everything else being incidental. W happens to scale with AD, but i guess it eventually turns into mostly a movement speed buff. That aoe cleave stuff on Q is really nice though - seems like she cant possibly scale THAT poorly with something like that to rely on?
Its cooldown is too long though (6), she really needs CDR but she also needs tanky stuff because of her bizarre role of tanky DPS without really being that innately tanky :[ Really confused about how to itemize her, especially early on :[ Bruta looks all nice on her in theory but her E gives 15% armor pen so there's no real point, and almost all of her shit does magic damage so penetration itemization is bizarre. You can try to spam Q but then she needs ASPD and CDR, the former of which she doesn't put into great effect due to needing to reposition often...
I'm tempted to get Kindlegem after Wriggles but then what? :<
On November 08 2011 16:04 Southlight wrote: Its cooldown is too long though (6), she really needs CDR but she also needs tanky stuff because of her bizarre role of tanky DPS without really being that innately tanky :[ Really confused about how to itemize her, especially early on :[ Bruta looks all nice on her in theory but her E gives 15% armor pen so there's no real point, and almost all of her shit does magic damage so penetration itemization is bizarre. You can try to spam Q but then she needs ASPD and CDR, the former of which she doesn't put into great effect due to needing to reposition often...
I'm tempted to get Kindlegem after Wriggles but then what? :<
Her AD scaling is not so great, but she scales well with HP.
I've been having some success with the following item build: boots > wriggles > wit's end > warmogs > mallet > fon/atmas
General notes/experiance:
Her ganks are indeed subpar, but she has very good clear speed. So I go for an invasion most of the time and try to focus on countering the enemy jungler. Unlike lane ganks, jungle fights often start point blank, which allows her to shine and compensate for lack of gap closer. The only time I don't invade is against fast junglers with unpredictable route (lee, olaf).
Usual route: their twingols > their wraiths > my wolves > my wraiths > my twingols(optional).
Boots + pots or cloth + pots. Boots allow for greater safety if you get spotted in their jungle, as not many people can match her 450 movespeed at lvl1. Cloth allows for full clear of small camps, with boots I'm usually unable to kill the last small golem.
Best shyvannas I've seen go solo lane and something like wits end-->trinity-->warmogs or wriggles+mallet+wits end or something. Scary as hell and can 1v2 almost like renekton after level 6.
Her W is like mundos but doesn't deal 40 true damage per second to herself and gives her speed.
And in dragon form at level 16 she gets +50 magic resist and armour for free I don't know what you mean with "not innately tanky". With just wriggles and wits end and dragon form she has insane surviability in small fights and her ultimate helps her get into big fights without having to go through a whole team to get to squishy targets.
The second Q hit procs her passive, so really it's a 5.5 second CD at rank 5. As long as you can stick to your target and have Q at max rank your AD scaling/second is better than Renekton's. If you were to somehow get 40% CDR and stick to a target your Q would have a CD of ~2.1 seconds even with no attack speed whatsoever and bring your AD scaling per second to pre ult riven levels.
I don't think it's good enough to build pure AD Navi-style but from my point of view it really sells atmogs or atmallet builds over any other kind of build. In Shyv's case I really think Mallet > Trinity for this reason. Sheen is almost completely wasted on Shyv since the mana is useless and the AP isn't worth the gold so the proc is literally worse than buying a pickaxe. Phage and zeal can be built into other items that suit an AD-ish style better.
On November 08 2011 22:37 phyvo wrote: The second Q hit procs her passive, so really it's a 5.5 second CD at rank 5. As long as you can stick to your target and have Q at max rank your AD scaling/second is better than Renekton's. If you were to somehow get 40% CDR and stick to a target your Q would have a CD of ~2.1 seconds even with no attack speed whatsoever and bring your AD scaling per second to pre ult riven levels.
I don't think it's good enough to build pure AD Navi-style but from my point of view it really sells atmogs or atmallet builds over any other kind of build. In Shyv's case I really think Mallet > Trinity for this reason. Sheen is almost completely wasted on Shyv since the mana is useless and the AP isn't worth the gold so the proc is literally worse than buying a pickaxe. Phage and zeal can be built into other items that suit an AD-ish style better.
I agree on some points, but what you overlook is the sheer number of different benefits triforce offers. It gives you AD (albeit a small amount), AS/crit and the phage slow, which is not to be underrated. But the biggest part of what it offers is the burst damage. The sheen proc is not to be underestimated. Whilst the mana may be a wasted stat, it is the ONLY wasted stat, and the burst alone is worth it. Why do you think triforce is a popular lee item? He scales even worse with AP/AS/crit, yet its one of the best items for lee...
Anywho, its 150% of your base attack damage every 2 seconds - for Shyvana this means a 173.55 increase to her next attack. With her Q being reduced by attack speed and several other spells to use to activate the proc, this means that when your sticking to a target, you'll be proccing it close to the 2 second mark. No other item in the game comes close to the damage it offers, and it has the utility by offering a slow, movement speed and a plethora of stats to boot. Its expensive, but definitely worth the investment if you finish it early enough. Farm that triforce baby!
Again, I hate it when people argue IT GIVES EVERYTHING YOU NEED to justify an item. You state the stats and positive effects it gives as if the number of effects, not the quality or magnitude of each effect, were all that's important. That's exactly the kind of argument newbies use when justifying rushing Nashor's on Skarner or Kayle. TF is obviously a better item but the reasoning is still not great aside from 2 second TF procs and possibly burst being greater than DPS.
Now I could be wrong, after all the end measure of effectiveness is how it plays out in game. But at the same time I think it takes more than just a few games to decide the usefulness of an item for a champ unless the item is really horrible or really good because the noise in every game is quite high.
The only thing Triforce gives Shyvana that's noticeable is the proc, in which you might as well get Sheen, or you might as well really just get an Infinity Edge or something (works out to around the same amount of damage aggregate due to, AFAIK, Sheen not proccing off the second hit of Q). I've mentioned it in the Irelia thread as well but I simply don't like Triforce as much due to the fact that it gives you a lot of stats, but depending on your playstyle most of those stats aren't useful. I also don't feel Wit's End is useful on Shyvana because she does a lot of repositioning in teamfights, so that her ASPD isn't as useful... she gets decent innate passive mitigation via armor/MR (though trivial) so that it's really just more efficient to get HP... which unfortunately is expensive :[
Edit: It definitely may depend on your team comp, but especially if you run off jungle I don't think Triforce is effective on Shy at all due to needing to be beefy.
On November 09 2011 01:02 Juicyfruit wrote: Tank items + hogging red buff is probably the best way to make use of all of shyvanna's abilities.
Hahah, the issue I ran into yesterday at shit-tier solo q (my first solo q games!) was that her late-game scaling is so god-awful that tanky Shyvanna feels utterly worthless. Other team was like OMG SHYVANA CARRY and I was like holy shit with how fed I am this is retarded. The issue may have been the second Warmog (instead of like IE) so maybe Atmog is still just "the way to go" mid-game, but yeah. Yargh.
Haha is it really that bad? I guess she's more of a mid-game hero but I can't really imagine her sucking because dragon form + W is like a potential 170 magic dps with a 0.4AD scaling (at least I think the trail + the innate burn aura stack), which is more damage than almost anyone else can do at that stage even if she just ran around in circles, l0l.
Her midgame is great with that crazy 170 damage W per second, but beyond her burst she doesn't really bring anything else... so then in end-game when people have like 100 MR and your 170 magic damage with 0.4 scale and only 15% magic pen is trying to kill people with some 3000 hp things don't look so good :[ Her only real scaling skill is Q, but all it is is a bad Riven passive (+100% damage on next hit, albeit AoE, so it's like Riven's W without the CC) :/ Kinda tough. She ends up being more of a tank without CC.
The wording from Q suggests it should apply all forms on on-hit effects on both strikes, so would it be possible to go an AD build and just AoE crit down people for the sustained damage? Just theory crafting here though.
Is Shyvana as vulnerable to kiting as Udyr is? That's the main worry that made me choose not to buy her- getting kited around all day while having no gap closer is very un-fun.
While in theory you can do crazy stuff like build AD and super cleave everyone (or better still, Tiamat's), in practical situations it rarely works. Q's AoE is just too restrictive for it to be reliable (small AoE and only in front of her). Even if people are clumped at the start of the fight you're only going to get off one Q before everyone has naturally spread out.
On November 09 2011 02:07 Zato-1 wrote: Is Shyvana as vulnerable to kiting as Udyr is? That's the main worry that made me choose not to buy her- getting kited around all day while having no gap closer is very un-fun.
She does have a gap closer, and enough speed to stay on target.
On November 09 2011 02:07 Zato-1 wrote: Is Shyvana as vulnerable to kiting as Udyr is? That's the main worry that made me choose not to buy her- getting kited around all day while having no gap closer is very un-fun.
She does have a gap closer, and enough speed to stay on target.
She has a gap closer with the CD of an ult, which is better than anything Udyr has as far as initiation goes, but as soon as someone flashes away I'd imagine she goes right back into "gonna get kited 'till kingdom come" status (of course, I don't know for sure and this was the issue of my original question). As for speed, Udyr has a speed boost as well, it's just woefully inadequate if you ask me.
Hmm, I think the same can be said for any melee without low-cd blink though. Even nocturne/rammus can't follow up on a defensive flash after their initiation without chasing the target down with their own flash or try to truck on through with a movespeed advantage.
Yes, hence the Atmog -> Infinity Edge idea (though that's a lot of money!). I'm not sure that Sheen procs affect both strikes, as I'd imagine it's treated the same as MF's DU and only Sheens the first and not the second. (sorry for the late response, @work).
Shyvanna has a funky thing going on where she offensively plays a bit like Trynd and Xin, you walk in and THEN pull off your blink. The issue is that her blink drags, so if you overshoot you fuck up your team, if you undershoot you miss. Bit awkward. If the other team has a blowback though (Grag Janna) it's a fucking bitch to do anything, and you end up reliant on your team. You also get punished for being kited because her W has high CD while being dependent on landing blows, so if they kite you for 3 seconds you're fucked.
I dunno why people say she's OP lol. If she's rolling she's pretty funny but she's got a few crippling problems atm ;; Still love playing her though, have always been a sucker for super high mobility heroes.
On November 09 2011 02:27 Juicyfruit wrote: Hmm, I think the same can be said for any melee without low-cd blink though. Even nocturne/rammus can't follow up on a defensive flash after their initiation without chasing the target down with their own flash or try to truck on through with a movespeed advantage.
Noct/Rammus can CC a target so that even if it flashes away afterwards, it'll still be in a bad spot... But that's beside the point. Udyr is very susceptible to being kited compared to other melee champions - Rammus has a long duration Taunt, Noct has a fear and a spellshield and can ignore collision, Irelia has a legit gap closer + hard CC + reduced CC duration against her, Jarvan has 3 forms of AoE CC, two of which move him, Riven can use Broken Wings to pretty much ignore slow effects for a short time and has two short CCs, Gangplank has two forms of slow + orange, Lee Sin is super mobile, etc.
Having established that Udyr's kit makes him more susceptible to being kited than most melee champions, my question is: does Shyvana fit into that "comparably easy to kite" category in the experience of those who've played her? I imagine she's less critically weak vs. poke as she's capable of initiating with her ult, but the combination of "need to stay in melee to be effective" + "have sub-par CC for a melee champion" + "have no way to better deal with CC being used against me" + "have no spammable gap-closer" seems like a losing proposition for me.
As long as you have red buff her constant speed boost allows her to stay in range, provided there isn't a snare or a push-back (Janna/Grag). So yes, it's difficult to "target" someone, as you often hit whatever you can hit. Mid-game this is offset by playing like Singed (don't need to hit someone in particular as long as you hit someone and poop fire everywhere) but late-game when flamepoop does nothing she ends up being more of an anti-tank... hence the awkward itemization.
Edit: Specifically, the issue is that Udyr has 0 way of catching up once snared; Shyvana has an extra. If the extra gets countered though then she's in more dire straights than any other melee hero because her speed boost wears off and its cooldown is bloody long.
On November 09 2011 03:15 Southlight wrote: As long as you have red buff her constant speed boost allows her to stay in range, provided there isn't a snare or a push-back (Janna/Grag). So yes, it's difficult to "target" someone, as you often hit whatever you can hit. Mid-game this is offset by playing like Singed (don't need to hit someone in particular as long as you hit someone and poop fire everywhere) but late-game when flamepoop does nothing she ends up being more of an anti-tank... hence the awkward itemization.
Edit: Specifically, the issue is that Udyr has 0 way of catching up once snared; Shyvana has an extra. If the extra gets countered though then she's in more dire straights than any other melee hero because her speed boost wears off and its cooldown is bloody long.
Okay, that makes sense. I'm being more careful than usual when it comes to buying champions, because I think Shyvana's classic skin is awful so if I were to buy her and play her I'd also have to buy her Ironscale skin :p
Second warmog? Infinity edge? lol... what are you thinking man?
Phantom dancer or wit's end would be a thousand times better than either of those. Attack speed procs her E so her autos are basically getting a 40 damage on hit steroid, which then benefits from Q and is aoe if you go dragon.
On November 09 2011 05:37 Juicyfruit wrote: Attack speed is pointless if you aren't up in someone's face attacking nonstop.
Any kind of stun/kiting will make that stat worthless.
not true on kiting. attack speed speeds up your attack animation, which helps while trying to animation cancel and chase someone while they're kiting.
Yeah I mispoke there. I meant to say peeling, not kiting :<
On November 09 2011 05:39 UniversalSnip wrote: which makes infinity edge a good pick
I don't know whether I'd actually but infinity edge, but it's does make you less counterable by stuns and shit compared to AS since instead of hitting like wet noddle but very fast, you do a very strong 3-hit combo with auto + Q and then if you get stunned after that, at least you're stunned while waiting for your cooldowns to come back up y'know.
She has minimal cc, and her ulti (which I would think is her "initiate"), knocks people slightly away from you instead of pulling people towards your team. Good skill for escaping, good skill to fly over walls with. Initiating as a tanky DPS, might want to take another approach.
edit: exhaust ftw on her, imo. gives her that little extra push :v
On November 09 2011 05:37 Juicyfruit wrote: Attack speed is pointless if you aren't up in someone's face attacking nonstop.
Any kind of stun/kiting will make that stat worthless.
not true on kiting. attack speed speeds up your attack animation, which helps while trying to animation cancel and chase someone while they're kiting.
She has a pretty good attack animation though, at least in terms of pre-attack. Though to be honest I can't tell during dragon form if it's any different because COLORBLINDATTACK holy fawk. As mentioned though, my biggest issue with ASPD is the amount of repositioning you end up doing, for instance having to overshoot target so that you can turn around and E/Q. In that sense I can see the mspd being useful off PD, but considering that she feels more like an MF ult (wherein you stacked BTs before to maximize the AD scaling of her ult, before she got nerfed to oblivion) it's honestly debatable (uncertain either way) whether trying to aspd weaker Q-procs more often is better than just nuking the ever living shit out of people in one blow.
If that explains my mindset regarding IE to Tapi's later post. Especially if you can get a nasty double crit off Q for an AoE explosion.
The only time Shyvana gets kited is if you're playing her to initiate team fights. She can be kited if you jump into small skirmishes but honestly you should have the good sense to know, "if I jump in there I won't be able to kill that Ashe before she just runs and kites me all day." She definitely doesn't have the same problems that Udyr has with being kited.
In big team fights Shyvana's team needs someone who can initiate well. Like Galio or something. You dragon dive into the enemy team immediately after someone initiates and deal all of that absurd damage while being naturally tanky (and hopefully you have a Warmogs by the time big team fights break out). Even if you feel like you aren't doing enough damage late game you should be doing enough to pressure their carries out of the fight or to force them to focus you and in either of those situations your teams carries should be able to just clean up unless they're bad. You can definitely carry with Shyvana but I think she's a bit more team dependent than other tanky DPS champions which might make her kind of bad in solo queue. Still, if you have a competent initiator and a competent AD carry I think she's stupidly strong in solo queue.
And I have to agree with what was sad on the last page. I think Trinity is pretty garbage on her. Would rather build Phage into Frozen Mallet for more Atmas damage and more HP because of how bad Sheen is on her (you're basically wasting at least 1260 gold worth of stats if you go Trinity). Wit's End is gonna give you more AS and also some MR. Atmas is going to give you more damage and give you armor and even give you more crit chance. On Shyvana at least I feel like Trinity is a great way to piss away 4k gold for less damage and less tankyness.
Trinity force is very cost effective to make up for the fact that no champion in the game really wants every stat. Not using the mana or AP is not a reason not to want sheen because lots of champions don't really use either and still get it.
On November 09 2011 06:23 Slayer91 wrote: Trinity force is very cost effective to make up for the fact that no champion in the game really wants every stat. Not using the mana or AP is not a reason not to want sheen because lots of champions don't really use either and still get it.
I'd rather get Frozen Mallet than Trinity though. I just don't think the 4k gold can justify getting Trinity when in that same time span I can have Wit's End and the start of Warmogs. She doesn't make use of 1/3 of the stats from Trinity and there are better options, which is why I don't think it makes sense to get it on her.
On November 09 2011 05:53 Voxae wrote: She has minimal cc, and her ulti (which I would think is her "initiate"), knocks people slightly away from you instead of pulling people towards your team. Good skill for escaping, good skill to fly over walls with. Initiating as a tanky DPS, might want to take another approach.
edit: exhaust ftw on her, imo. gives her that little extra push :v
I think if she had some initiation she'd be borderline (or even completely) OP. But without any CC she's basically a tanky DPS champion that can't initiate which is why I think a lot of people considered her a bit underwhelming. She's a lot more team reliant than other tanky DPS champions imo.
If anything she's like a tanky support damage-dealing... thing. That AoE 15% armor shred is nothing to scoff at for AD teammates ;< She's a fantastic counterjungler (if terrible ganker pre-6) and can hammer some of the early powerhouses (she can take jungle LS straight up for instance) so she has a very awkward role, hahah.
On November 09 2011 02:33 Southlight wrote: Yes, hence the Atmog -> Infinity Edge idea (though that's a lot of money!). I'm not sure that Sheen procs affect both strikes, as I'd imagine it's treated the same as MF's DU and only Sheens the first and not the second. (sorry for the late response, @work).
Just tested it. Sheen and Triforce only affect the first hit.
Makes me a little bit sad. Cause i think she needs that slow from Phage or stuff. Buying a Frozen Mallet until lategame costs imo too much. I love that champ btw.
On November 09 2011 05:53 Voxae wrote: She has minimal cc, and her ulti (which I would think is her "initiate"), knocks people slightly away from you instead of pulling people towards your team. Good skill for escaping, good skill to fly over walls with. Initiating as a tanky DPS, might want to take another approach.
edit: exhaust ftw on her, imo. gives her that little extra push :v
You can use Shyvana to initiate, just you need to it smartly.
For example, you can ulti from behind the other team toward your team, pulling them towards you.
On November 09 2011 05:37 Juicyfruit wrote: Attack speed is pointless if you aren't up in someone's face attacking nonstop.
Any kind of stun/kiting will make that stat worthless.
not true on kiting. attack speed speeds up your attack animation, which helps while trying to animation cancel and chase someone while they're kiting.
She has a pretty good attack animation though, at least in terms of pre-attack. Though to be honest I can't tell during dragon form if it's any different because COLORBLINDATTACK holy fawk. As mentioned though, my biggest issue with ASPD is the amount of repositioning you end up doing, for instance having to overshoot target so that you can turn around and E/Q. In that sense I can see the mspd being useful off PD, but considering that she feels more like an MF ult (wherein you stacked BTs before to maximize the AD scaling of her ult, before she got nerfed to oblivion) it's honestly debatable (uncertain either way) whether trying to aspd weaker Q-procs more often is better than just nuking the ever living shit out of people in one blow.
If that explains my mindset regarding IE to Tapi's later post. Especially if you can get a nasty double crit off Q for an AoE explosion.
Q's got nothing to do with it, she's got an on hit steroid. Like teemo. When was the last time you built infinity edge teemo?
Teemo doesn't need to worry about being kited, has no burst even WITH infinity edge, and no AD scaling whatsoever.
Shyvana's E is an on-hit effect, yes, but it's very very weak unless you level it up first, and even if you max it it's still pretty terrible since she's not a ranged hero naturally designed around kiting. Moreover, unlike teemo, it's not perpetual on-hit damage since you need to hit someone with E and then wack them within 4 seconds.
On November 09 2011 06:30 overt wrote: I think if she had some initiation she'd be borderline (or even completely) OP. But without any CC she's basically a tanky DPS champion that can't initiate which is why I think a lot of people considered her a bit underwhelming. She's a lot more team reliant than other tanky DPS champions imo.
Yup, she is @__@; I also find her w really easy to get out of sticky situations with, and I do still do decent damage with her which made her appeal to me a lot, so I've been playing her a lot.
On November 09 2011 08:13 iCanada wrote:You can use Shyvana to initiate, just you need to it smartly.
For example, you can ulti from behind the other team toward your team, pulling them towards you.
Yeah, I know. Usually the other team is smart enough to not try anything cute when one member of the enemy team is missing (and alive..) though. Or atleast, that's been my experience .___.;;
Yea I try to be cute with Flash Ult but that fuckin dragon is slower than Sona's ult, so hard to aim, usually not even worth it. I tend to try to ram clumps into walls but otherwise I just play REALLY patient with activating the ult. Try to get as much mileage out of a fight pre-ult and then just blow shit up once I get proper positioning. Unfortunately I've also rammed people THROUGH a wall, which is just fantastic (hint: not).
Edit: Love her for the same reason. Her mobility is orgasmic. One of the few junglers I feel comfortable grabbing a relatively early Oracles (post-6) and just being a mapcontrol bitch.
On November 09 2011 08:46 Juicyfruit wrote: Teemo doesn't need to worry about being kited, has no burst even WITH infinity edge, and no AD scaling whatsoever.
Shyvana's E is an on-hit effect, yes, but it's very very weak unless you level it up first, and even if you max it it's still pretty terrible since she's not a ranged hero naturally designed around kiting. Moreover, unlike teemo, it's not perpetual on-hit damage since you need to hit someone with E and then wack them within 4 seconds.
Bad comparison.
It's 40 damage per hit! That's FINE, lol, especially since you can proc it aoe.
Whatever, build her however you want, but i edge and so on make no sense. Just build a wit's end.
On November 09 2011 08:46 Juicyfruit wrote: Teemo doesn't need to worry about being kited, has no burst even WITH infinity edge, and no AD scaling whatsoever.
Shyvana's E is an on-hit effect, yes, but it's very very weak unless you level it up first, and even if you max it it's still pretty terrible since she's not a ranged hero naturally designed around kiting. Moreover, unlike teemo, it's not perpetual on-hit damage since you need to hit someone with E and then wack them within 4 seconds.
Bad comparison.
It's 40 damage per hit! That's FINE, lol, especially since you can proc it aoe.
Whatever, build her however you want, but i edge and so on make no sense. Just build a wit's end.
Sure but when you get that at level 18 it doesn't really look so good >.<
For comparison Shyv's on hit is by far the worst in the entire game (40 damage is tiny and it has a 0.09 AP ratio when standard is 0.2) unless you count champions who don't actually have any on hit abilities. Building around the most lackluster part of a champ's meh-est ability is definitely not a smart idea when Q is on a lower cooldown, resets your auto attack, and has a juicy 2.0 AD ratio (which also procs on hits, yes).
it's better than tf's E lol. I'm not saying you should stack attack speed, but if you want some late game damage yeah a recurve item or adding a phantom to atmogs is gonna give you a lot more utility than... infinity edge. or a second warmogs.
Some really interesting dicussion going on about the merits of different items, and tbh thats why I love playing Shyvana. Because everything that's been mentioned would work, and quite well. Shy can be played in so many different ways, which is what makes her fun. Personally I'm an advocate of triforce, mostly because it lets me wreck AD carries quickly and helps me stick on them, but for sure mallet + atma's would do some similar work.
As for Shyvana's mobility, I love it. The movement speed increase from W feels like a lot - it can get you away from fights early on, or to them. Later on, it means without some sort of instant movement escape (flash etc.) people wont get away from you. And if they do, well you can turn into a dragon baby. I've had minimal trouble with people kiting me, due to the ability to close gaps easily with your ult. The trick is knowing when you can afford to be aggresive (Your ults up, is their escape down? Maybe your flash is up too?) and abusing that.
The problem comes in focused cc in team fights, where you can be quite quickly disabled and killed if you've overexposed yourself into their team. Knowing when to get right up in the thick of their team and when to hold back a little is a skill that needs to be worked on to perfect Shyvana. But tbh, if your team is anywhere near by, they can usually punish an enemy team who's used so many cc's disabling you... Which is the idea! If they ignore you, wreck the carries, if they dont, your carries wreck them.
What do you guys think about getting ghostblade or bloodrazor on her? i'm thinking of building a single "big" damage item and then going tanky for the rest of the slots, ghostblade gives CDR/attack dmg and some crit, the armor pen might be a questionable stat but ghostblade active should be a clutch steroid when used in conjunction with W..
Bloodrazor can be build off ur initial razor, it gives armor, attack speed and some dmg and 4% hp per hit, yeh the 4% is magic dmg, then again so is every other spell from her..
I think attack speed is overrated on her. From my point of view, the 25% attack speed from runes is more than enough to spam Q + animation cancel, and much more than that and your Q starts becoming a burden on your DPS. One extra attack speed item tops, though that'll probably end up being wit's end since it's so goddamn cost-effective and all of the stats are juicy.
A moderate amount of attack speed and a sizeable amount of CDR is probably the best theoretically, I don't really know yet. I do know that bloodrazor is prooobably not worth it. Ghostblade is interesting but I'm not sure when you'd be building it since wriggles is great for jungle and you can't really delay BT or Warmogs for top.
You know your ridiculously far ahead when the Morde on the enemy team gets your ghost and turns it into a quadra kill at the 20 minute mark = / First death too! Taught me not to let Morde get my ghost again at least >.>
So when I saw some people on wikia talking about Burnout stacking with it's own ult effect I was thinking "You gotta be kidding" and tested it out. Turns out it does, so pro move is cast burnout and run in front of your target to double up on the AoE. If you aren't moving you don't lay down the AoE and are missing out on a ton of magic damage.
IMO clinches the idea for me that AD > other stats and that frozen mallet/red buff are really important, probably more important than PD.
On November 09 2011 15:31 Juicyfruit wrote: I think attack speed is overrated on her. From my point of view, the 25% attack speed from runes is more than enough to spam Q + animation cancel, and much more than that and your Q starts becoming a burden on your DPS. One extra attack speed item tops, though that'll probably end up being wit's end since it's so goddamn cost-effective and all of the stats are juicy.
A moderate amount of attack speed and a sizeable amount of CDR is probably the best theoretically, I don't really know yet. I do know that bloodrazor is prooobably not worth it. Ghostblade is interesting but I'm not sure when you'd be building it since wriggles is great for jungle and you can't really delay BT or Warmogs for top.
Q at max rank with max CDR has a 3.1 second CD (3.6-0.5 seconds because second hit procs passive). To exactly fit 2 autos in before Q comes off CD (so you chain Qs) you need 2.1/2 = 1.05 AS, but with less AS you still get more or less a full Q every two attacks which is pretty super dang huge.
The problem is getting CDR. Even with Q shyv isn't blue buff hogging material. GB is awkward because it's bad, but bruta early could be fine. Ionian boots seem like suicide but they seem like the only good option outside of CDR runes/masteries (which hardly cut it since they're so late game oriented).
With 18% CDR from just boots/offense you'd instead be looking at wanting about 1.1 AS for Q every 4 autos and 1.47 for Q every 3 autos. IDK though, I'm really not sure CDR is worth it over just piling more AD/survivability/attack speed on, hard to say because the itemization sucks so hard.
For reference, with 25% attack speed she starts around 0.8-0.9AS at level 1, since her base attack speed is nice.
Depending on their cc/escape, black cleaver theoretically provides some of the best stats for shyvanna, which combined with 31 armor pen setup gives her an effective 90armor pen. It also gives just enough attack speed to compensate for the lack of AS runes.
Bloodthister is another interesting idea because her dragon Q lifesteals from everything at once.
I don't like frozen mallet because she should be getting red buff if she's doing good, and she should be grabbing tankier items if she's not ,_,
If Burnout didn't stack it'd be pretty worthless to be honest, lol. 85 damage is almost 20% less than Mundo's shit, and you don't see anyone in a hurry to max that.
At least in jungle I run aspd red and blue, so I have decent aspd :<
On November 09 2011 13:07 Shizuru~ wrote: What do you guys think about getting ghostblade or bloodrazor on her? i'm thinking of building a single "big" damage item and then going tanky for the rest of the slots, ghostblade gives CDR/attack dmg and some crit, the armor pen might be a questionable stat but ghostblade active should be a clutch steroid when used in conjunction with W..
Bloodrazor can be build off ur initial razor, it gives armor, attack speed and some dmg and 4% hp per hit, yeh the 4% is magic dmg, then again so is every other spell from her..
I hate Bloodrazor on most champions. It won't help you kill squishies any better than other builds (which should be your primary concern) and since most of the champions who have high health will also have a lot of MR it'll be pretty bad against them. If you want to build her full tank and just get one damage item I'd have to suggest Atmas or maybe Trinity even though I don't like it on her (but if you're only getting ONE damage item Trinity is good). I wouldn't build her full tank though, she gets 50 free Armor/MR and if you build Atmogs (and every Shyvana build should imo) she's pretty damn tanky.
On November 10 2011 03:05 Juicyfruit wrote: For reference, with 25% attack speed she starts around 0.8-0.9AS at level 1, since her base attack speed is nice.
Depending on their cc/escape, black cleaver theoretically provides some of the best stats for shyvanna, which combined with 31 armor pen setup gives her an effective 90armor pen. It also gives just enough attack speed to compensate for the lack of AS runes.
Bloodthister is another interesting idea because her dragon Q lifesteals from everything at once.
I don't like frozen mallet because she should be getting red buff if she's doing good, and she should be grabbing tankier items if she's not ,_,
I need to try AS runes. Was thinking of getting Black Cleaver in a game too but haven't tried it yet. It sounds good on paper dunno when I'd fit it into my build though. Maybe get it instead of Wit's End although I'm not sure if I want to part with Wit's. I guess BC could be a good item for after Warmogs but eh.
I get Bloodthirster in any game that lasts too long. Whether I lane or jungle her I usually get Wriggle's for the lane sustain or the obvious benefits of jungling. I like to sell Wriggle's for BT if the game goes long enough because life steal is pretty helpful when you have like 300 AD on a tanky DPS champion who's going to be standing in the middle of the entire enemy team.
I've always been curious why Wit's End is universally recommended on Shyvana, I usually get Black Cleaver instead. I haven't played too many games with her though so maybe Wit's End is definitively better, has anyone tried builds without using Wit's End and might have some insight on this?
On November 10 2011 06:30 c.Deadly wrote: I've always been curious why Wit's End is universally recommended on Shyvana, I usually get Black Cleaver instead. I haven't played too many games with her though so maybe Wit's End is definitively better, has anyone tried builds without using Wit's End and might have some insight on this?
Your mid game is a lot weaker. Not sure if your late game would be better or not but Wit's End is amazing mid game because AS is good on Shyvana and mid game also happens to be the time that AP carries shine so the MR from Wit's is very handy.
You could probably replace it with something else like BC but eh...I didn't like replacing Wit's with BC due to the weaker mid game and I'm not sure what else I could put in Wit's place.
Q at max rank with max CDR has a 3.1 second CD (3.6-0.5 seconds because second hit procs passive). To exactly fit 2 autos in before Q comes off CD (so you chain Qs) you need 2.1/2 = 1.05 AS, but with less AS you still get more or less a full Q every two attacks which is pretty super dang huge.
<snip etc etc boring math>
Before anyone gets confused, the numbers I calculated were wrong, lol. For one they were seconds per attack (in game it's attacks/second), for another some were just bad. So with 40% CDR for Q every 2 attacks you ideally would have .95 AS or 44% total IAS. With 18% CDR from boots/offense mastery the numbers would have been 1.65 AS (150% IAS) for 4 autos per Q and 1.02 AS for 3 autos per Q (56% IAS). Shyv gets 1.7% IAS per level for 30% total at 18.
IDK if anyone cares but I hate saying something stupid that's not true.
I don't like Wit's End, as it's weak, doesn't synergize with her playstyle, and she gets enough innate defenses that she benefits more from HP. If you need MR you can just be like Araragi and get a single Negatron, though you rarely need it.
Edit: phyvo can you explain that in peasant terms? I'm totally confused at what your conclusion is @_@
If you go for a slow attack speed build like atmogs/IE/BT having just enough attack speed so that your Q comes off CD just after your second, third, or fourth auto you'll probably help your DPS better than buying just the wrong amount of attack speed so that Q comes off cooldown in the middle of your auto attack rather than at the end.
As for the numbers in particular, they don't necessarily show anything except that the ideal IAS for free Q autos can be calculated fairly easily. I'd do a full DPS spreadsheet but doing that crap takes so much time, like a day per champ, it's a pain in the butt, and in the end *usually* it tells me stuff everyone already knows.
Have more or less settled on 21/0/9, Smite/Flash, Armor quint + yellow and aspd red + blue (though I might shift quints again not sure, will need to juggle numbers). Boot + 3 pot opening Wolf -> Blue, you want a really good leash on blue, if you can get a quick blue with minimal HP loss you can really hammer the other jungler.
-> enemy wraith if HP permits, then your own wraith and minigol, unless you have spare HP and/or against slow jungler (ie. Fiddle/WW) then you can just snag their minigol, by the time they realize both are gone if they try to come to your wraith you can catch them (and beat them 1v1) else you have a fresh creep set on your side.
If you just nab wraith -> clear then after backing you can usually buy Vamp and then do Wolf -> Red -> w/e you want. Priority of items after Boot is Vamp > LS > Cloth obviously, but you preferably buy at least one health pot to try to top off for ganks.
#1 is to counterjungle until 6 (and beyond) - the faster you get to 6, and the slower the opponent gets to 6, the better. Post-6 you have some nifty red-buff ganks due to having double flash + ghost.
Wriggle -> Treads (can get Oracle before finishing Treads if you feel safe due to double flash) -> Giant's Belt -> Chainvest -> Atma's Impaler -> Warmog -> Bloodthirster is the order I generally go, although to be honest I have no idea which BF Sword item is actually the best due to games rarely getting that deep.
Opposing junglers you hate: Olaf (can actually beat you straight-up early on wtfhax), Rammus, Udyr (clears as fast), Trynd (snare > ghost, can't really take 1v1 due to ult) Opposing junglers you destroy: LS, Fiddle, WW, Noc, Cho, etc.
Prior to the jungle hotfix, I could run Boots+3 opening jungle Shyvana and just never stop farming all day long. Now, with the slightly higher damage coming out of the mobs, I can't seem to do a clear of the jungle without a decent pull at wolves and blue. I was running 21/0/9 for movement speed and extra damage. However, I tend not to play Shyvana as a damage dealer and play her more as a tanky dps. Sorta mirroring Saint's build of Boots->Wriggles->Boots 2->Wit's End->Atmog->Triforce. I don't often get to the end, but I have before a couple times.
I really want to make this Boots opening work without having to rely on a strong pull at blue/wolves. But I think it might take changing masteries, but I don't want to give up movement speed. Anyone have some new jungle starts/routes they like on Shyv?
TL;DR:
Spec: 21/0/9 Runes: ArPen Quints, ASpd Reds/Blues, Armor Yellow Boots + 3 Route: Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Golems->Wolves->Wraiths->Red (ideally, but now I seem to run out of steam at Golems).
Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
On December 12 2011 18:53 Gaslo wrote: Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
I can't imagine how Shyv would be able to beat Riven... I guess W max and use it to harass? With enough points in it you *might be able to outtrade Riven...but iunno...
Recently I've been wondering if Black Cleaver or some other glass cannon-y build would be good on Shyvana. Seeing how she gets SO MUCH free defensive stats from her ulti, it doesn't make all that much sense to build her tanky due to diminishing returns on defensive stats. I don't really play Shyv tho so just theorycraftin here
On December 12 2011 18:53 Gaslo wrote: Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
I can't imagine how Shyv would be able to beat Riven... I guess W max and use it to harass? With enough points in it you *might be able to outtrade Riven...but iunno...
Recently I've been wondering if Black Cleaver or some other glass cannon-y build would be good on Shyvana. Seeing how she gets SO MUCH free defensive stats from her ulti, it doesn't make all that much sense to build her tanky due to diminishing returns on defensive stats. I don't really play Shyv tho so just theorycraftin here
I watched Westrice play lane Shyvana and it's all about the E. I believe you still max W first but you have to land your E's. If you do, the damage + the 15% armor debuff + the on-hit extra damage is just too strong. I think he went Wriggles into Boots 2 into Wit's End. Once you get that attack speed you just chunk people so hard. W + E is just really strong in trades. If you miss your E's though you're probably going to get pushed around quite badly.
On December 12 2011 18:53 Gaslo wrote: Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
I can't imagine how Shyv would be able to beat Riven... I guess W max and use it to harass? With enough points in it you *might be able to outtrade Riven...but iunno...
Recently I've been wondering if Black Cleaver or some other glass cannon-y build would be good on Shyvana. Seeing how she gets SO MUCH free defensive stats from her ulti, it doesn't make all that much sense to build her tanky due to diminishing returns on defensive stats. I don't really play Shyv tho so just theorycraftin here
I watched Westrice play lane Shyvana and it's all about the E. I believe you still max W first but you have to land your E's. If you do, the damage + the 15% armor debuff + the on-hit extra damage is just too strong. I think he went Wriggles into Boots 2 into Wit's End. Once you get that attack speed you just chunk people so hard. W + E is just really strong in trades. If you miss your E's though you're probably going to get pushed around quite badly.
Sure, hitting the E's helps a lot, but you can do it from point blank if your getting into an actual fight, or poke with it at other times. Even if you dont hit it, your still pretty strong. Basically Shyvana trades ridiculously well because she can get to (w sprint) and burst (AA + double AA from Q) a person really easily. In a straight up fight she beats most people because her sustained damage is high (w/e) and can surprise with the burst/distance closure from her ult. She's a very strong top laner and I cant think of any lanes I straight up lose.
On December 12 2011 18:53 Gaslo wrote: Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
I can't imagine how Shyv would be able to beat Riven... I guess W max and use it to harass? With enough points in it you *might be able to outtrade Riven...but iunno...
Recently I've been wondering if Black Cleaver or some other glass cannon-y build would be good on Shyvana. Seeing how she gets SO MUCH free defensive stats from her ulti, it doesn't make all that much sense to build her tanky due to diminishing returns on defensive stats. I don't really play Shyv tho so just theorycraftin here
wat, defensive stats dont suffer diminishing returns. She's basically like udyr and has to more/less run at ppl to engage with them, and so ends up taking a lot of damage on the way in. Dont see any way around building some bulk on her.
On December 12 2011 18:53 Gaslo wrote: Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
I can't imagine how Shyv would be able to beat Riven... I guess W max and use it to harass? With enough points in it you *might be able to outtrade Riven...but iunno...
Recently I've been wondering if Black Cleaver or some other glass cannon-y build would be good on Shyvana. Seeing how she gets SO MUCH free defensive stats from her ulti, it doesn't make all that much sense to build her tanky due to diminishing returns on defensive stats. I don't really play Shyv tho so just theorycraftin here
wat, defensive stats dont suffer diminishing returns. She's basically like udyr and has to more/less run at ppl to engage with them, and so ends up taking a lot of damage on the way in. Dont see any way around building some bulk on her.
When you build Shyv tanky, just stack health. No need to get MR/Defence because your passives gives you them. So just grab a Warmogs.
I do think Shy can outlane pretty well any champ if you play it right. I think E is easily her best skill by far. Increaeses 'W' damage too. Great to harrass as well, I like to get it pretty early (by three) or even first if I am laning against a ranged champ.
On December 12 2011 18:53 Gaslo wrote: Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
I can't imagine how Shyv would be able to beat Riven... I guess W max and use it to harass? With enough points in it you *might be able to outtrade Riven...but iunno...
Recently I've been wondering if Black Cleaver or some other glass cannon-y build would be good on Shyvana. Seeing how she gets SO MUCH free defensive stats from her ulti, it doesn't make all that much sense to build her tanky due to diminishing returns on defensive stats. I don't really play Shyv tho so just theorycraftin here
wat, defensive stats dont suffer diminishing returns. She's basically like udyr and has to more/less run at ppl to engage with them, and so ends up taking a lot of damage on the way in. Dont see any way around building some bulk on her.
When you build Shyv tanky, just stack health. No need to get MR/Defence because your passives gives you them. So just grab a Warmogs.
I do think Shy can outlane pretty well any champ if you play it right. I think E is easily her best skill by far. Increaeses 'W' damage too. Great to harrass as well, I like to get it pretty early (by three) or even first if I am laning against a ranged champ.
Are you sure? So you are telling me the 15% extra magic damage on every AA works on every tick of her W as well?
On December 12 2011 18:53 Gaslo wrote: Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
I can't imagine how Shyv would be able to beat Riven... I guess W max and use it to harass? With enough points in it you *might be able to outtrade Riven...but iunno...
Recently I've been wondering if Black Cleaver or some other glass cannon-y build would be good on Shyvana. Seeing how she gets SO MUCH free defensive stats from her ulti, it doesn't make all that much sense to build her tanky due to diminishing returns on defensive stats. I don't really play Shyv tho so just theorycraftin here
wat, defensive stats dont suffer diminishing returns. She's basically like udyr and has to more/less run at ppl to engage with them, and so ends up taking a lot of damage on the way in. Dont see any way around building some bulk on her.
What I mean by that is that with Wriggles/Aegis and her ulti Shyvana hits ~200 armor/mres easily. Buying any more armor/mres suffers huge diminshing returns as each point of armor/mres barely gives you any increase in survivability. Shyvana should probably be stacking HP and damage imo.
On December 12 2011 18:53 Gaslo wrote: Does Shyvana really win against Riven on lane? I was listening to Westrices stream, and i thought he said something like "i tried it, Riven cant even touch Shyvana". I was doing something else at the time, so i am not sure though.
Because if its true, and this dragonlady is the solution to the problem that has been making me cry for some time now, i know where i will put my RP:s.
And how is her laning against other champions? Does she win any lanes 100-0, lose any?
I can't imagine how Shyv would be able to beat Riven... I guess W max and use it to harass? With enough points in it you *might be able to outtrade Riven...but iunno...
Recently I've been wondering if Black Cleaver or some other glass cannon-y build would be good on Shyvana. Seeing how she gets SO MUCH free defensive stats from her ulti, it doesn't make all that much sense to build her tanky due to diminishing returns on defensive stats. I don't really play Shyv tho so just theorycraftin here
wat, defensive stats dont suffer diminishing returns. She's basically like udyr and has to more/less run at ppl to engage with them, and so ends up taking a lot of damage on the way in. Dont see any way around building some bulk on her.
When you build Shyv tanky, just stack health. No need to get MR/Defence because your passives gives you them. So just grab a Warmogs.
I do think Shy can outlane pretty well any champ if you play it right. I think E is easily her best skill by far. Increaeses 'W' damage too. Great to harrass as well, I like to get it pretty early (by three) or even first if I am laning against a ranged champ.
Are you sure? So you are telling me the 15% extra magic damage on every AA works on every tick of her W as well?
It sure feels like it does. There aren't many trades you lose when they have the debuff and you're rocking W. That includes Riven for most of the game, actually. Only one you lose to is Mundo with his fireball shield. Stupid mundo...
21/9/0 Red - 9x ASpd Yel - 9x Armour Blu - 9x MR/Lvl Qui - 3x MSpd
Starting Boots+3Pots or Vamp Scepter - I've been wanting to try this setup out for a few nights now, but for some reason Shyv has been a bit of a craze and she's always picked before me -.-
I'm wanting to try out a Boots, Wriggles, Bruta, Boots 2, Wits end, Atmogs, Ghostblade out, is their any reason people don't pick bruta up on her? It all seems to be relevant, AD is worth alot due to scaling + double strike ARpen is always nice and CDR is HUGE for her DPS, what do you guys think?
Just went jungle shyvana in a normal, first time ever jungling her, started boots +3 gotta a really shitty pull on blue, 1 auto attack, and i had went wolves first so i ended up going wolves-blue-wraiths-wolves B wraiths red gank top.
Ended up doing well I went wriggles -> wits end ->mercs -> giants belt -> chain mail then finished atmas and was working on warmogs when game ended.
was 7-3-9
felt pretty fun and decent for me having 0 clue what i was doing
I always find myself getting a dorans shield or two on shyv. Dunno why, feels like some health regen in the jungle is just needed to efficiently use your health pool in ganks. Something like boots-->1-2 dshields-->wits end then like frozen mallet atmas or something.
Shyvana is one of those champs I'd actually want at least phage on because of how hard she sustains damage but has trouble staying in range especially when you can't keep your W up.
I'd naturally go 9/21/0 on shyvana, because a hybrid who relies on a mix or autos, magic damage autos, spells and physical damage spells has a hard time getting the most out of offensive tree, while the stats in defensive tree are all great on her.
On January 17 2012 23:58 Slayer91 wrote: I always find myself getting a dorans shield or two on shyv. Dunno why, feels like some health regen in the jungle is just needed to efficiently use your health pool in ganks. Something like boots-->1-2 dshields-->wits end then like frozen mallet atmas or something.
Shyvana is one of those champs I'd actually want at least phage on because of how hard she sustains damage but has trouble staying in range especially when you can't keep your W up.
I'd naturally go 9/21/0 on shyvana, because a hybrid who relies on a mix or autos, magic damage autos, spells and physical damage spells has a hard time getting the most out of offensive tree, while the stats in defensive tree are all great on her.
Hmm... right now I'm getting an early vampscepter on her for the sustain but I'll try a DShield instead. Phage makes loads of sense, also atm I'm trying to get an Oracle as soon as I hit 6 cause her pre 6 gank rivals WW and her post 6 gank rivals... um... Udyr? Well, better, but still welp.
Why does no one build any CDR on her at all? At least a Kindlegem (instead of HoG) or a Brutalizer should make sense in theory. Also my guess is that Aegis -> Warmogs should perform reasonably well on her if the game doesn't go that well.
Right now I'm basicly just maxin W, afkfarmin and getting random components of Wits/Warmogs/Atmas, somehow get that crap way before the enemy jungle and win game. =S
But I gotta say, wow, her teamfights presence feels retardedly strong. It's SUP BITCHES all over the place. <3
Edit: Anyone playing her top regularly? My gut says that's where she really shines and so far she feels to me like a more annoying version of singed. ;X
Nothing good to build out of kindlegem, bruta doesn't make much sense becaues of her hybrid damage. Glacial is a mana item. All the good cdr items usually have something to do with mana. SV is kinda crappy in general. Too bad.
I know I have asked this before but the answer wasn't answered because he was not sure so I will ask again here.
Does burnout ticks count for the 15% magic damage on her E as well? Basically everytime burnout ticks on a target marked with her E, does the target take the 15% extra magic damage?
been playing top lane shyvana a ton lately and its fun as fuck
rush wriggles/boots. level up w and powerfarm outside their tower, then just pick your nose and throw fireballs at them while they try to cs on tower. rinse and repeat until you have around 6k gold.
I'm wondering about how to build her, had two good Shyvs on my teams and since she's free this weak and I need to pick up a 3rd jungler amongst the fast ones. With, or without wriggles? HoG seems like a no-brainer, then attack speed (Wit's and Cleaver seem like good choices), some HP (mallet or warmogs), and AD to finish once you're tanky thanks to your passive? I read in the thread that BT looks appreciated.
I guess I can't go wrong with boots+3 -> wriggles -> HoG -> Aegis, but it seems severely sub-optimal. Also, W->Q->E ? Guides on stuff like solomid and mobafire all say to build shit like triforce and MBR so I'm not going to trust them.
On January 22 2012 07:09 Alaric wrote: I'm wondering about how to build her, had two good Shyvs on my teams and since she's free this weak and I need to pick up a 3rd jungler amongst the fast ones. With, or without wriggles? HoG seems like a no-brainer, then attack speed (Wit's and Cleaver seem like good choices), some HP (mallet or warmogs), and AD to finish once you're tanky thanks to your passive? I read in the thread that BT looks appreciated.
I guess I can't go wrong with boots+3 -> wriggles -> HoG -> Aegis, but it seems severely sub-optimal. Also, W->Q->E ? Guides on stuff like solomid and mobafire all say to build shit like triforce and MBR so I'm not going to trust them.
I like boots+3->Wriggles->Mallet rush->whatever you want(wits end/Ionic spark/atmas/Randuin blah blah blah). Mallet is core, after that just adapt.
I've been having trouble in my first few tries, notably because of her lack of cc to gank. Should I try to persuade my teammates to pick strong laners, or at least some with CC, so that I can gank the less possible before 6 or at least be more efficient during these? When doing boots+3 I can do the wraiths->red->double gols->wraiths->wolves->blue route, too. I have to stop after wolves, with only about 450 gold (that I use to buy a vamp scepter and be sustainable ad infinitum as long as I don't gank). Does this route require a good leash, or am I doing something wrong (9-21-0, AS reds, armor yellows, mr/level blues and a mix of AS/MS quints)?
I've really felt weak and easily killed in teamfights, but that's probably because people focused me everytime (and somebody got totally fed on the enemy team while I've lagged behind the lanes). I know I didn't aa enough to take advantage of the Q cd and W duration, too, but there's probably something I should adapt from my playstyle heavily affected by Maokai/Trundle.
Shivana is not a jungler, she is a counterjungler, if M5 has shown us something today against SK. That counterjungling was sick, Shivana was running far into wolves even x_x
Yep, I stole quite a number of blues (got ganked on my (long) way to a red because "it's not easy to see if it's not warded" by bot lane—who also assumed I should know whenever they need a gank, even when 30s before they had pushed to enemy tower while top was 3-man ganked, so... ), some wraiths, but as ganks were requested often I ended up not even being able to keep my own jungle cleared (and when I had the time to, laners came and grabbed them right before my eyes).
Hence the question about team comp, since the need for frequent ganks seems not only to have put me behind, but also to have hindered my ability to play Shyv's role, so I'm wondering if not-strong enough lanes play a role too or if it's entirely me doing it wrong.
On January 22 2012 10:43 Alaric wrote: I've been having trouble in my first few tries, notably because of her lack of cc to gank. Should I try to persuade my teammates to pick strong laners, or at least some with CC, so that I can gank the less possible before 6 or at least be more efficient during these? When doing boots+3 I can do the wraiths->red->double gols->wraiths->wolves->blue route, too. I have to stop after wolves, with only about 450 gold (that I use to buy a vamp scepter and be sustainable ad infinitum as long as I don't gank). Does this route require a good leash, or am I doing something wrong (9-21-0, AS reds, armor yellows, mr/level blues and a mix of AS/MS quints)?
I've really felt weak and easily killed in teamfights, but that's probably because people focused me everytime (and somebody got totally fed on the enemy team while I've lagged behind the lanes). I know I didn't aa enough to take advantage of the Q cd and W duration, too, but there's probably something I should adapt from my playstyle heavily affected by Maokai/Trundle.
1. Your team should have some CC, but there is no need to go overboard with them. 2. Shyvana has 3 strength in my opinion, she is very very fast, she is tanky and she clears jungle extremely fast because of her high aoe damage. This makes her an excellent duelist and a counter jungle as well as a great candidate for early oracles because how difficult it is to kill her. You should not be farming your jungle unless you can help it, instead you should be hunting down the other jungle and put as much pressure as possible. Few junglers can duel you and even if the other team finds you, Shyvananananana can get away due to her zoom zoom.
So zoom zoom away.
so I'm wondering if not-strong enough lanes play a role too or if it's entirely me doing it wrong.
I think if you are able to take their jungler out of the equation then it puts less pressure on all your lanes. They need to understand that and play more aggressively. Jungle is essentially a lane in itself, you can only win your lane so hard and then win others' lane.
On January 19 2012 07:37 requiem wrote: sounds like a recipe to get ganked unless while picking your nose you aren't using W at all, still easy to get ganked
wriggles = permaward, and your ult is like 1.5x the distance of flash. plus i run ghost so i'm pretty much ungankable.
only problem is if your lane gets camped pre-6 or even pre-wriggles.
On January 22 2012 11:17 Alaric wrote: Yep, I stole quite a number of blues (got ganked on my (long) way to a red because "it's not easy to see if it's not warded" by bot lane—who also assumed I should know whenever they need a gank, even when 30s before they had pushed to enemy tower while top was 3-man ganked, so... ), some wraiths, but as ganks were requested often I ended up not even being able to keep my own jungle cleared (and when I had the time to, laners came and grabbed them right before my eyes).
Hence the question about team comp, since the need for frequent ganks seems not only to have put me behind, but also to have hindered my ability to play Shyv's role, so I'm wondering if not-strong enough lanes play a role too or if it's entirely me doing it wrong.
It sounds more like your main issue was inefficient ganking. You should only be going for lanes that are gankable, regardless of whether they're winning or losing or asking for ganks. Since Shyvana's ganking power isn't that great while her jungle speed is obscene, the standard you set for whether it's worth your time to gank should be even higher than usual, as you could always be power farming the jungle. It's easy to fall in the trap of trying to help a lane that's getting crushed and yelling for ganks, but if you won't be able to do much by showing up, then tell them to suck it up.
Your other option is you can just counter jungle hard enough/stalk the other jungler hard enought hat he simply can't have a ganking presence himself. How is a Maokai supposed to gank the living hell out of your team if he is always at half health or less because a Shyvana keeps laying a bruising on him?
Honestly, I think most of my "Ganks" as Shyvana are more baits into the enemy jungle that I know is warded. The thing about Shy is that she is really strong in actually fights, but she can't actually force a fight. So if you put yourself in a spot where the other team has to fight or thinks their chances are too good to not fight, you are golden. Picture this, you have enemy blue warded and see Maokai doing it, go in there and get him nice and low, and chances are the closest laner on the enemy team is going to come to help (that, or you just kill them/take their buff and lols) and you can just ping like mad and counter gank with whoever is laning for your team in the closest lane.
Aside from that, I just will show my face at each lane two-three times and land a combo of E->W->auto->Q. 99 times out of 100 they get away, but if you show that you are a global presence they have to play cautious regardless; you can make an enemy scared whether you can actually hurt them or not. Forget about going and actually setting up rigorous ganks, just randomly show up when your entire jungle is cleared and have at er... seems silly but it takes 15 seconds and you often have nothing else to do but foray into the enemy jungle anyway, which it is much easier to do if their laners can't be a presence because you just pushed em out of lane.
So what should we be building after wriggles/boots/mallet/wits?
Tossing around Warmogs/Atma's for obvious reasons, but there is also Sunfire for sitting in the middle of their team, and Ionic Spark to consider for more dragon time, faster tower teardowns, and more AOE while still giving you a bit of health...
I don't think Aegis is all that great on her by that time, but I just finished my placement matches into ~1100s so I have no delusions of being the greatest player ever.
[QUOTE]On January 22 2012 11:19 warscythes wrote: [QUOTE]On January 22 2012 10:43 Alaric wrote: I've been having trouble in my first few tries, notably because of her lack of cc to gank. Should I try to persuade my teammates to pick strong laners, or at least some with CC, so that I can gank the less possible before 6 or at least be more efficient during these? When doing boots+3 I can do the wraiths->red->double gols->wraiths->wolves->blue route, too. I have to stop after wolves, with only about 450 gold (that I use to buy a vamp scepter and be sustainable ad infinitum as long as I don't gank). Does this route require a good leash, or am I doing something wrong (9-21-0, AS reds, armor yellows, mr/level blues and a mix of AS/MS quints)?
I've really felt weak and easily killed in teamfights, but that's probably because people focused me everytime (and somebody got totally fed on the enemy team while I've lagged behind the lanes). I know I didn't aa enough to take advantage of the Q cd and W duration, too, but there's probably something I should adapt from my playstyle heavily affected by Maokai/Trundle.[/QUOTE]
Ganks with shyvanna are sub-par compared to other junglers. Her main goal is to completely destroy the enemy jungle. Most junglers, includin the newly popular mundo jungle, start wolves--> blue and go for their red. Starting w/ boots lets you get to their red faster than they can get to wraiths. Your aoe plus your q makes you one o the best duelists in the jungle. Essentially: farm their jungle more than your jungle. NOTE: make sure your lanes ward the right places (tribush bot, tri at mid, and river at top) so that you dont get counterjungled. Nothing feels worse than taking their shit then realizing they just took yours instead.
To all the experienced Shyvanas out there: Would it be possible to use spellvamp quints to sustain in the jungle with W(similar to M5's jungle mundo), and skip wriggle's for a fast phage for more ganking potential? I just purchased and really enjoy playing her, but in the lower levels of solo queue, where there is 0 coordination, I feel like I can't counter jungle or gank well enough to justify picking her over someone else. It doesn't seem like wriggle's is necessary on her for anything besides the sustain, as her clear speed is good enough already. It feels like redbuff and early phage on shyvana might actually make her ganks decent. Any thoughts?
On February 08 2012 07:09 Conroe64 wrote: To all the experienced Shyvanas out there: Would it be possible to use spellvamp quints to sustain in the jungle with W(similar to M5's jungle mundo), and skip wriggle's for a fast phage for more ganking potential? I just purchased and really enjoy playing her, but in the lower levels of solo queue, where there is 0 coordination, I feel like I can't counter jungle or gank well enough to justify picking her over someone else. It doesn't seem like wriggle's is necessary on her for anything besides the sustain, as her clear speed is good enough already. It feels like redbuff and early phage on shyvana might actually make her ganks decent. Any thoughts?
for a couple weeks i pushed starks as my first item for the same reason - it would give me all the sustain and attack speed i would need, eliminating the need for wriggles. after stark's got changed i defaulted to wriggle's and immediately remembered why i never should have moved away from it - the proc. the ability to get a proc on an auto, then a double proc on a Q and take a buff in 4 hits, is tooooo strong. i've taken buff camps in 3 seconds. absolutely nothing can stop you from taking buffs if you have wriggles
On February 08 2012 07:09 Conroe64 wrote: To all the experienced Shyvanas out there: Would it be possible to use spellvamp quints to sustain in the jungle with W(similar to M5's jungle mundo), and skip wriggle's for a fast phage for more ganking potential? I just purchased and really enjoy playing her, but in the lower levels of solo queue, where there is 0 coordination, I feel like I can't counter jungle or gank well enough to justify picking her over someone else. It doesn't seem like wriggle's is necessary on her for anything besides the sustain, as her clear speed is good enough already. It feels like redbuff and early phage on shyvana might actually make her ganks decent. Any thoughts?
Wriggles is like a must-have item for junglers. Faster clears, faster dragons/barons, free ward, lifesteal, armor, and damage. Try getting early dragon w/o wriggles. It takes forever and leaves you guys way open for attack. Personally, the spell vamp quints aren't really worth it. 6% spell vamp with your w heals almost nothing. Even if you went for utility tree, you would still only get about 10% spell vamp, which will heal you MAYBE for about 10 health a second earlier. Falls off SUPER hard late game too. Personally, not worth it. Stick with wriggles
Ok, thanks for the responses. I just assumed Shyv would be similar to Skarner, who doesn't need wriggles to jungle effectively. Well, at least I don't have a reason to drop 6k ip on new quints now.
I decided that Mallet isn't really worth it. Instead I've just been going Phage+Belt then grabbing Atma's right then. Then you turn then you can just get Warmogs/Trinity as you feel like it. The perma slow nice I guess, but it is pretty hard for Phage/Trinity to fail when you can get 3 hits in a second in.
I also like grabbing Wits right after Wriggles, you do so much damage so early. A thing of beauty.
So who is "safe" against shyvana's counter jungling?
BY safe i mean - can trade hits with her equaly when they meet in jungle. Maybe lee sin? Shyvana totally dominates my riven and rammus when she finds me in jungle :/
On February 10 2012 18:52 Makavw wrote: So who is "safe" against shyvana's counter jungling?
BY safe i mean - can trade hits with her equaly when they meet in jungle. Maybe lee sin? Shyvana totally dominates my riven and rammus when she finds me in jungle :/
Udyr skarner and lee are all excellent jungle duelists. Maybe fiddlesticks too because she cant interrupt drain, but he is vulnerable to buffs being stolen because he is so slow.
Trundle should be able too. He's not that slow on buffs once he's got wriggles thanks to an auto-attack reset and an AS steroid, plus even with CC you can't always catch him (not 1v1 anyway), so for Shyv who can only speed up herself... Also his ult doesn't care that much aout her free resists. Just wait until she turns into dragon form.
On February 10 2012 20:17 Alaric wrote: Trundle should be able too. He's not that slow on buffs once he's got wriggles thanks to an auto-attack reset and an AS steroid, plus even with CC you can't always catch him (not 1v1 anyway), so for Shyv who can only speed up herself... Also his ult doesn't care that much aout her free resists. Just wait until she turns into dragon form.
With equal health/levels there's no way Trundle can stand up to her pre-6, after that perhaps because her tankiness is sort of removed with his ult, but even then if he doesn't pillar and force a trade/get free hits while she flees she can wait theu lt off and still probably beat him 1v1.
On February 10 2012 20:17 Alaric wrote: Trundle should be able too. He's not that slow on buffs once he's got wriggles thanks to an auto-attack reset and an AS steroid, plus even with CC you can't always catch him (not 1v1 anyway), so for Shyv who can only speed up herself... Also his ult doesn't care that much aout her free resists. Just wait until she turns into dragon form.
With equal health/levels there's no way Trundle can stand up to her pre-6, after that perhaps because her tankiness is sort of removed with his ult, but even then if he doesn't pillar and force a trade/get free hits while she flees she can wait theu lt off and still probably beat him 1v1.
Rather false. His Q neuters her damage. Hard.
What is true, however, is that Trundle gets pretty mana starved if he's forced to W or E, and he'll be forced to W if he wants to keep up with shyv's W damage.
What can you do as Volibear top vs Shyvana. tried starting cloth 5 but her W just shreds me making any trading impossible. starting Null mantle didnt help either since with just 2 pots she can still reliably harass you down.
She just pushes the lane strait into my tower and while W gives her all cs i miss a couple under the tower. Junglers have been pretty bad about ganking her but considering its solo Q its hardly a good option to trust in your jungler to have a chance in winning the lane.
On February 11 2012 05:49 Gorsameth wrote: What can you do as Volibear top vs Shyvana. tried starting cloth 5 but her W just shreds me making any trading impossible. starting Null mantle didnt help either since with just 2 pots she can still reliably harass you down.
She just pushes the lane strait into my tower and while W gives her all cs i miss a couple under the tower. Junglers have been pretty bad about ganking her but considering its solo Q its hardly a good option to trust in your jungler to have a chance in winning the lane.
This has pretty much been the problem I ran against too. If you let her push, she shoves to your turret super fast with her w. If you push, she just clears the wave anyways. You can't trade favorably with her because of her innate tankiness and insane damage output.
On February 10 2012 20:17 Alaric wrote: Trundle should be able too. He's not that slow on buffs once he's got wriggles thanks to an auto-attack reset and an AS steroid, plus even with CC you can't always catch him (not 1v1 anyway), so for Shyv who can only speed up herself... Also his ult doesn't care that much aout her free resists. Just wait until she turns into dragon form.
With equal health/levels there's no way Trundle can stand up to her pre-6, after that perhaps because her tankiness is sort of removed with his ult, but even then if he doesn't pillar and force a trade/get free hits while she flees she can wait theu lt off and still probably beat him 1v1.
Rather false. His Q neuters her damage. Hard.
What is true, however, is that Trundle gets pretty mana starved if he's forced to W or E, and he'll be forced to W if he wants to keep up with shyv's W damage.
Eugh, most of damage shyvana does is from her W and E damage anyway. It's gonna steal like what, 10 AD? Thats like 18 damage from her Q and 10 per auto hit, not a big deal. Trundle definitely can't 1v1 shyv in the jungle.
On February 10 2012 20:17 Alaric wrote: Trundle should be able too. He's not that slow on buffs once he's got wriggles thanks to an auto-attack reset and an AS steroid, plus even with CC you can't always catch him (not 1v1 anyway), so for Shyv who can only speed up herself... Also his ult doesn't care that much aout her free resists. Just wait until she turns into dragon form.
With equal health/levels there's no way Trundle can stand up to her pre-6, after that perhaps because her tankiness is sort of removed with his ult, but even then if he doesn't pillar and force a trade/get free hits while she flees she can wait theu lt off and still probably beat him 1v1.
Rather false. His Q neuters her damage. Hard.
What is true, however, is that Trundle gets pretty mana starved if he's forced to W or E, and he'll be forced to W if he wants to keep up with shyv's W damage.
Id say that avoiding fighting her in the jungle entirely is a good idea. Obviously that isnt always possible. Nobody really "wins" straight up against Shy, as suggested, some do pretty well though. If the Shy is very aggressively counter jungling you, the best way to deal with it is wards. If you ward entrances, say blue and wraithes entrance, you'll catch her going into your jungle most of the time. Then, you coordinate a gank with your lanes on her in your own jungle. Its important to warn your lanes that counter jungling might be an issue if your one of the more susceptible junglers to her countering, so that they know when you ping for help, you need them to hurry to your aid.
On February 11 2012 05:49 Gorsameth wrote: What can you do as Volibear top vs Shyvana. tried starting cloth 5 but her W just shreds me making any trading impossible. starting Null mantle didnt help either since with just 2 pots she can still reliably harass you down.
She just pushes the lane strait into my tower and while W gives her all cs i miss a couple under the tower. Junglers have been pretty bad about ganking her but considering its solo Q its hardly a good option to trust in your jungler to have a chance in winning the lane.
This has pretty much been the problem I ran against too. If you let her push, she shoves to your turret super fast with her w. If you push, she just clears the wave anyways. You can't trade favorably with her because of her innate tankiness and insane damage output.
On February 11 2012 07:37 L wrote: Trade as W ends. That's half of laning against her.
This. Her W is a pretty big deal, if you enage her with it down, you'll have a large advantage. Her E is another important point, the armour shread can significantly increase her damage against you. I suspect that in general, Voli v Shy will be a really hard lane to win as Voli. Work on creeping under the tower as best you can, and learning the right times to trade. Ask your jungle for more ganks! :D
On February 12 2012 20:06 arb wrote: Was thinking of buying either shyv or skarner for my next jungle,(have most of the others except for those 2 + nocturne) and dunno which one to get
any suggestions? or is it really just a play style type thing? Really like the way shyvana seems like she plays though
I'd recommend Shy for sure, obviously I'm somewhat bias, but she is a very fun champ. Skarner is a reasonably strong solo Q champ, but if the enemy team is coordinated, he becomes less effective. I really enjoy Shy because of her versatility, you can stay in your own jungle farming if thats what your comfortable with, or counter jungle to really mess with others. She does well with a strong understanding of other jungle champs and their power curves and routes, so that you know when best to counter jungle. She promotes map and jungle control, by being very mobile, and if you can learn to use this, shes very strong. The most fun with Shy is her mid game, you can have a really fun time in the mid game where shes at her strongest. Usually a strong mid game leads to a reasonable late game (If the game actually gets that far) which means shes still strong as the game progresses.
Skarner is a very different champ to Shy. He clears pretty well, but because of his strong slows and his ult, you can take advantage of that best by ganking a lot more. In my opinion Skarner has a much harder mid and late game to learn, as he is a very positional champion (keeping people off your own carries versus diving carries and initiating fights with your ult). He is a very strong champ, especially in solo Q, but I feel that hes harder to learn, and harder to master. He cant carry a game on his back like Shy can, (Or, not nearly as well anyway) but with a good team and good play, he makes a very valuable addition to a team.
Oh, and Shyvana turns into a dragon. Seriously, shouldnt that have decided it for you?
On February 10 2012 20:17 Alaric wrote: Trundle should be able too. He's not that slow on buffs once he's got wriggles thanks to an auto-attack reset and an AS steroid, plus even with CC you can't always catch him (not 1v1 anyway), so for Shyv who can only speed up herself... Also his ult doesn't care that much aout her free resists. Just wait until she turns into dragon form.
With equal health/levels there's no way Trundle can stand up to her pre-6, after that perhaps because her tankiness is sort of removed with his ult, but even then if he doesn't pillar and force a trade/get free hits while she flees she can wait theu lt off and still probably beat him 1v1.
Rather false. His Q neuters her damage. Hard.
What is true, however, is that Trundle gets pretty mana starved if he's forced to W or E, and he'll be forced to W if he wants to keep up with shyv's W damage.
Eugh, most of damage shyvana does is from her W and E damage anyway. It's gonna steal like what, 10 AD? Thats like 18 damage from her Q and 10 per auto hit, not a big deal. Trundle definitely can't 1v1 shyv in the jungle.
One thing Trundle can do though is draw the fight out somewhat, and get backup from a lane. Hes also one of the only champs who has a decent chance of running away from Shy, which is also a pretty big benefit. Most other champs dont have the move speed to match, but with his W, and then his E to slow, trundle has a good chance of getting away. Possibly not the best situation to be always running from someone in your own jungle, but hopefully your lanes will catch on and catch Shy out. I feel that whilst Shy probably wins in most situations 1v1 in the jungle, it wouldnt be always a win, Trundle can do reasonable damage and what items and the order that they're being built in as well as levels, may be pretty important as they're a close match.
On February 10 2012 20:17 Alaric wrote: Trundle should be able too. He's not that slow on buffs once he's got wriggles thanks to an auto-attack reset and an AS steroid, plus even with CC you can't always catch him (not 1v1 anyway), so for Shyv who can only speed up herself... Also his ult doesn't care that much aout her free resists. Just wait until she turns into dragon form.
With equal health/levels there's no way Trundle can stand up to her pre-6, after that perhaps because her tankiness is sort of removed with his ult, but even then if he doesn't pillar and force a trade/get free hits while she flees she can wait theu lt off and still probably beat him 1v1.
Rather false. His Q neuters her damage. Hard.
What is true, however, is that Trundle gets pretty mana starved if he's forced to W or E, and he'll be forced to W if he wants to keep up with shyv's W damage.
Eugh, most of damage shyvana does is from her W and E damage anyway. It's gonna steal like what, 10 AD? Thats like 18 damage from her Q and 10 per auto hit, not a big deal. Trundle definitely can't 1v1 shyv in the jungle.
10 is level 1 Q. Its 13 at 2, 15 at 3.
At level 3, that means you're losing 24 damage from Q, 13 from autos. Trundle, meanwhile, is sitting on a 20% attack speed steroid and +25 damage.
Shyv cannot make a prolonged exchange unless trundle's significantly hurt, but that's irrelevant because her EWaaQ burst is WAY higher than aaQ from trundle, and burnout lets her disengage at will. If trundle needs to force an exchange, he's forced to EW, but even EW is irrelevant because even if shyv is forced to eat 2 extra autos when getting out because of pillar/contaminate, pillar's cooldown is twice as long as burnout's, which means she can hop right back in when none of his steroids are up and dragon punch him in the face again.
Trundle can't keep tossing down contaminate and pillar without being forced to return to base, either; the more he needs to use pillar and contaminate defensively in the jungle, the less mana he has to clear and gank with. And lets be entirely honest, past the first blue, he isnt' getting any and his utility is very much dependent on his pillar's availability.
On February 16 2012 02:47 arb wrote: How's it recommended to build her now?
I've been going wriggles wits boots then situational tanky items?
or is wriggles wits boots phage atmas blah blah good?
also for runes?
using ad red armor yellow mr/l blues and as quints
or ist here something that works a bit better?
Item build hasn't changed much. Open Boots, Wriggle's, HoG, Wit's, Phage. I like Mallet on Shy because of her total lack of CC.
Runes is usually personal preference. I run AD, AD, Flat Armor, AS. I focus more counter jungling and dragon control until I have my core built up to Phage and feel somewhat tanky. saint runs AS, AD, Flat Armor, MR/Level. He aggros a lot more than I would, so MR Glyphs help him there.
On February 16 2012 02:47 arb wrote: How's it recommended to build her now?
I've been going wriggles wits boots then situational tanky items?
or is wriggles wits boots phage atmas blah blah good?
also for runes?
using ad red armor yellow mr/l blues and as quints
or ist here something that works a bit better?
Item build hasn't changed much. Open Boots, Wriggle's, HoG, Wit's, Phage. I like Mallet on Shy because of her total lack of CC.
Runes is usually personal preference. I run AD, AD, Flat Armor, AS. I focus more counter jungling and dragon control until I have my core built up to Phage and feel somewhat tanky. saint runs AS, AD, Flat Armor, MR/Level. He aggros a lot more than I would, so MR Glyphs help him there.
On February 16 2012 02:47 arb wrote: How's it recommended to build her now?
I've been going wriggles wits boots then situational tanky items?
or is wriggles wits boots phage atmas blah blah good?
also for runes?
using ad red armor yellow mr/l blues and as quints
or ist here something that works a bit better?
Item build hasn't changed much. Open Boots, Wriggle's, HoG, Wit's, Phage. I like Mallet on Shy because of her total lack of CC.
Runes is usually personal preference. I run AD, AD, Flat Armor, AS. I focus more counter jungling and dragon control until I have my core built up to Phage and feel somewhat tanky. saint runs AS, AD, Flat Armor, MR/Level. He aggros a lot more than I would, so MR Glyphs help him there.
Considering most of her damage is magic I'd think it'd be best to go for defensive runes? You do so much aoe dmg in dragon form by just staying alive and being on top of people.
On February 25 2012 15:12 0123456789 wrote: buy with ip. That's how u supposed to do it. Still have forever to abuse this ez mode champion Yes, I'm late to the bandwagon.
yeah, you have at least 3 patches left before they nerf her. i think riven nerfs took 5 patches after she got "noticed"
On February 25 2012 15:18 Itsmedudeman wrote: Considering most of her damage is magic I'd think it'd be best to go for defensive runes? You do so much aoe dmg in dragon form by just staying alive and being on top of people.
21/9/0 is the only way to go she gets so much free defense that overstacking the defense tree is a total waste
I remember watching saint's stream some time back (like a week or two) and he said he feels lategame when you have you mallet and stuff, getting a MBR+chainvest is better than getting atmas on her if you have good farm. What's the logic behind his statement?
On February 27 2012 13:38 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: I remember watching saint's stream some time back (like a week or two) and he said he feels lategame when you have you mallet and stuff, getting a MBR+chainvest is better than getting atmas on her if you have good farm. What's the logic behind his statement?
MBR probably yields more damage than just an Atmas. MBR also costs twice as much hence the "if you have good farm."
I don't get why he said 'particularly on shyvanna'. I usually get on hit stuff on champions who have innate sustain like warwick, irelia etc. Wouldn't physical damage still be better on champions whose only form of sustain is lifesteal?
On February 27 2012 15:43 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: I don't get why he said 'particularly on shyvanna'. I usually get on hit stuff on champions who have innate sustain like warwick, irelia etc. Wouldn't physical damage still be better on champions whose only form of sustain is lifesteal?
onhits typically have nothing to do with sustain, it's literally all about how much you autoattack ppl. In the case of a lot of sustainers, that is true, hence why you might think that, but if you look at like teemo or kog, who can both pretty legitimately build onhits, they have 0 sustain.
if that's the case with shyv, a couple of onhits would be a good buy, the double-hit may also be a consideration in that regard.
hmm.... I dunno about that. I mean, saint is a smart guy and all, but a HUGE chunk of shy's damage comes from her AOE and I don't think it scales with MBR bonus damage.
I don't know why you are running AP anything on Shyvanna. She is pretty flexible, but I run AD Reds, AD quints, Attack Speed Blues, and Armor Yellows and it works the best out of everything I have tried.
On February 28 2012 05:29 Caphe wrote: Is AS runes a must on a jungle shyvanna? I always feel my jungle clear is quite slow since I run flat MS and armor plus AP quints and reds.
AP quints and reds?
Why?
o.o
Gotta abuse the mediocre AP scaling on the single target skillshot with a huge CD? The mediocre AP scaling on the Ulti? I don't understand the logic behind that. At all.
I don't really understand move speed runes on her either, W is +50% movespeed. You already faster than erryone else without em.
I think AS runes optimal, but a standard jungle runepage (AD+flat armor+scaling MR) works well also. Thing is that she gets great use out of AS becuase if she killing sometjhing in jungle in five hits in the same time period of three hits with AS runes compared to AD/ArP runes she lowering her CD's more.
On February 28 2012 05:29 Caphe wrote: Is AS runes a must on a jungle shyvanna? I always feel my jungle clear is quite slow since I run flat MS and armor plus AP quints and reds.
That rune setup is pretty bad. There are 2 general schools for Shyv runes: the Diamondz and SV. Diamondz runs Ad/armor/attack speed/(armpen or ad quints, cant remember which). SV runes As/armor/mrlvl/Armpen. Diamondz is slightly stronger in 1v1, but slightly less tanky and slightly slower. SV is fast, tanky, but not QUITE as strong in a 1v1 situation.
But ya, dont run ap. Its basically worthless on her. MS quints can be good, but she doesnt really need it since she starts boots and has her w.
I thought you go AD on shyvana because it scales with her Q and W? You wouldn't run armouorpen it's just stupid. Jungle mobs barely have armour, you have lots of magic damage anyway. Even when they do have armour it's usually worse than AD early game considering how much magic damage you have.
AS I can see but I imagine AD hurts a lot harder in ganks with W and Q damage way higher. and you hit+q combo being fairly unaffected by attack speed.
On February 28 2012 06:51 Slayer91 wrote: I thought you go AD on shyvana because it scales with her Q and W? You wouldn't run armouorpen it's just stupid. Jungle mobs barely have armour, you have lots of magic damage anyway. Even when they do have armour it's usually worse than AD early game considering how much magic damage you have.
The vast majority of your damage to big creeps is going to come from auto attacks. Hence why running armor pen does make some sense.
But either way, its the runepage SV used to use and perhaps still does. Havent seen him shyv in a while.
Ad quint, ad armor mr/level is the only runepqge for shyv. Arpen is wasted, she does magic dmg that scales from ad. Ap is wasted. Ms is wasted. The majority of your damage comes from procs of madred/wriggle and your flames. No arpen, nit even in top lane
On February 28 2012 06:51 Slayer91 wrote: I thought you go AD on shyvana because it scales with her Q and W? You wouldn't run armouorpen it's just stupid. Jungle mobs barely have armour, you have lots of magic damage anyway. Even when they do have armour it's usually worse than AD early game considering how much magic damage you have.
The vast majority of your damage to big creeps is going to come from auto attacks. Hence why running armor pen does make some sense.
But either way, its the runepage SV used to use and perhaps still does. Havent seen him shyv in a while.
How much does armour pen really increase your damage in jungle? Assume that you have E on the jungle mobs, and your W AD scaling? I don't think it's that high, at least not to justify a full 21 armour pen, with 21 offense and 15 armorpen. Maybe a bit of armourpen might be efficient.
On February 28 2012 05:29 Caphe wrote: Is AS runes a must on a jungle shyvanna? I always feel my jungle clear is quite slow since I run flat MS and armor plus AP quints and reds.
AP quints and reds?
Why?
o.o
Gotta abuse the mediocre AP scaling on the single target skillshot with a huge CD? The mediocre AP scaling on the Ulti? I don't understand the logic behind that. At all.
I don't really understand move speed runes on her either, W is +50% movespeed. You already faster than erryone else without em.
I think AS runes optimal, but a standard jungle runepage (AD+flat armor+scaling MR) works well also. Thing is that she gets great use out of AS becuase if she killing sometjhing in jungle in five hits in the same time period of three hits with AS runes compared to AD/ArP runes she lowering her CD's more.
By AP I meant Armor Pent and Red Armor Pent, by MS I meant MR. Sorry for the confusion. Because I quit NA server like 6 months ago then moved to China server for much better ping(from 300 to under 80). So I forgot alot of the runes names in English . Also, on China server 90% of the population have no way to obtain more than 2 runes pages. Since Tencent(the company that run LoL in China) decided not to sell rune pages for IP or even RP. more than 6 months since the servers up and running, Tencent only sell like 1000 rune pages for a price of 40USD/5 pages. And that sold out like within a few hour back in December of last year. -_-
This page is a general page for my jungle and AD carry. The other page is for AP champ. Since a new season will begin on China server tomorrow, I want to switch full time to jungler because I know duo que with a friend that mainly play AD carry or Solo top.
Thank you guys alot for the rune input, I still can not run a full Shyvanna page cos there are only 2 pages T_T.
Well, you only get 3 bonus damage onto your w from your runes. So it really doesnt add all that much in terms of sheer clear speed in that respect, only in terms of the extra damage you get when you land a q on something.
The later the game goes the better the armpen/aspeed page is, while the ad page is a slightly cheesier early game variant.
They both work, its just a matter of how bursty you want to be vs how much sustained damge you want to do and at what stage of the game you want to optimize.
Over 9 seconds there's a 1.8 AD ratio on W, that applies on all targets, and ONLY your Q and auto hit damage is scaling at all from armour pen, excluding wits end, bonus damage from E, E damage, R damage, W damage, so I wouldn't see why armourpen would be core. It's not like she needs that extra bit of damage mid/late game lol. I'm not even convinced armourpen is that much better if at all than AD at any points of the game if you aren't constantly auto attacking every time you can. (versus running target's you're probably not)
Skarner has only 0.8 AD ratio on Q and building AD on him is definitely the best for clear speed from my opinion. (Obviously you get 2-3 Q's but it's better scaling than 2 Q's)
On February 29 2012 01:42 Slayer91 wrote: Over 9 seconds there's a 1.8 AD ratio on W, that applies on all targets, and ONLY your Q and auto hit damage is scaling at all from armour pen, excluding wits end, bonus damage from E, E damage, R damage, W damage, so I wouldn't see why armourpen would be core. It's not like she needs that extra bit of damage mid/late game lol. I'm not even convinced armourpen is that much better if at all than AD at any points of the game if you aren't constantly auto attacking every time you can. (versus running target's you're probably not)
Skarner has only 0.8 AD ratio on Q and building AD on him is definitely the best for clear speed from my opinion. (Obviously you get 2-3 Q's but it's better scaling than 2 Q's)
Its just an option, and one SV choses to run. Jungling with no pen whatsoever makes you pretty darn weak when going up against enemy champions and bigger jungle creeps. Your E is good, but its only single target when you arent in dragon form. Armpen also helps you against bigger tankier targets in teamfights. You dont really NEED any extra damage to kill a squishy, but armpen does help if you need to attack, say, an Udyr.
Again though, Diamondz runs one way, SaintVicious runs the other. Saint really likes armor pen on jungles.
What's the maths look like though? It seems like you're vastly exaggerating the numbers here, while I imagine the difference is very small. I don't see how armour pen makes a big difference against tanky targets when it helps more against squishies. In any case with wits, E, E added damage, and W, not to mention R are all magic damage I can't imagine not having armour pen makes you "weak".
Didn't saint give up on shyvana jungling anyway? I haven't seen him do it in ages. I wouldn't call him the authority on shyvana, he probably just uses the same page on most of his junglers.
Like if armour pen was so good people would be buying shit like brutalizer, lol.
You get 15% Armor Reduction from E. That's the only reason you would get APen runes. Most likely no significant effect on jungle clear times, but APen does stack nicely with the Armor Reduction.
Whether it's actually worth it... I don't know. I don't think the difference is huge.
Okay, so let's say we have level 18 shyvana with wriggles, frozen mallet//phage, about 170 AD without AD runes and 180 AD with runes. E shred is on and target is reduced to 100 armour. Let's say you're on this target for 9 seconds hitting once per second and 2x for the first hit and last hit so about 11 hits. That 1870 base AD physical damage with armour pen or 1980 damage without armor pen.
Without armour pen you're doing 990 damage With armour pen you're doing 1870x.54 = 1010 damage. So we're talking like a 2% increase in damage.
Now let's say you have wits end as well, and you went into this guy E'd him and W'd for the full duration during this exchange. You're doing 765 base damage from W, 260 + 429 from E, 462 bonus damage from wits end, and you have something like +50 bonus AD, +60 with AD runes, so an extra 90 damage without AD reds and 108 damage with AD So that's 2006-->2024 base magic damage. If the target has 100 mr it's going to be 1003/1012 bonus magic damage. So the final conclusion in this case is that armour pen marks over AD runes in a lategame scenario are giving you 11 damage out of like 2kish, so a 0.5% increase in damage.
I know this is extremely back of the envelope calculation but we're giving up this early game speed from AD runes because we're going to be "pretty darn weak" lategame, when you're losing like 0.5% damage?
On February 29 2012 02:00 Slayer91 wrote: What's the maths look like though? It seems like you're vastly exaggerating the numbers here, while I imagine the difference is very small. I don't see how armour pen makes a big difference against tanky targets when it helps more against squishies. In any case with wits, E, E added damage, and W, not to mention R are all magic damage I can't imagine not having armour pen makes you "weak".
Didn't saint give up on shyvana jungling anyway? I haven't seen him do it in ages. I wouldn't call him the authority on shyvana, he probably just uses the same page on most of his junglers.
Like if armour pen was so good people would be buying shit like brutalizer, lol.
Here's some charts based on pre runes. Granted, these charts are based on either Full AD or Full ArP, but a mixed set would logically come out in the middle I believe.
It's not a case of armour pen being better than AD. It's shyvana who does like 50% magic damage and has AD ratios and junglers better early with AD versus getting armour pen for a slightly stronger lategame.
Ad/armpen split is actually more efficeint than full of either.
Slayer- I honestly dont think it matters that much. Each has advantages. One doesnt HAVE to be better than the other. If you want to be bursty and are worried about people running from you, run ad. Not that big a deal lol.
The main thing on someone like shyvana is that the rune page at least makes SENSE. Armor pen and AS make sense. They will scale well with whatever you buy. AD wont scale as well, but it has early game advantages. Just pick whichever makes sense to you.
Has anyone had experience with an early Bilgewater cutlass on a jungling Shyvana? I feel like the active slow really makes her ganks a lot stronger, but I'm not a high level player and I don't have very much experience on the matter.
On March 07 2012 13:55 TheHumanSensation wrote: Has anyone had experience with an early Bilgewater cutlass on a jungling Shyvana? I feel like the active slow really makes her ganks a lot stronger, but I'm not a high level player and I don't have very much experience on the matter.
Only if you're fairly ahead. The (garenteed) 50% 3 second slow wouldn't be very strong if you are behind and too much gold would be put into offense if you don't have the level/item advantage to stay tanky enough and fight
On March 07 2012 13:55 TheHumanSensation wrote: Has anyone had experience with an early Bilgewater cutlass on a jungling Shyvana? I feel like the active slow really makes her ganks a lot stronger, but I'm not a high level player and I don't have very much experience on the matter.
Exaust. I really dont think she needs flash, even if you counterjungle, simply because your w is really really good, and once you hit 6 you should literally NEVER die when invading.
IIRC you should only be opening boots on shy if you have the life vamp quints. Otherwise you dont get the necessary sustain to take red, and then make a lvl 2 gank with the buff. Overall I can appreciate the effort put into writting this thread but I feel that it does not do enough to maximize Shyvanna's potential and strong points through the late game. 4-5k HP dragon late game is much better then moderate HP with a bit more dmg, especially when you can build Atma's later on and convert you tankyness into DPS anyways. Changing the items you are using is gonna greatly increase your overall effectiveness imo.
On March 16 2012 00:47 MapleFractal wrote: IIRC you should only be opening boots on shy if you have the life vamp quints. Otherwise you dont get the necessary sustain to take red, and then make a lvl 2 gank with the buff. Overall I can appreciate the effort put into writting this thread but I feel that it does not do enough to maximize Shyvanna's potential and strong points through the late game. 4-5k HP dragon late game is much better then moderate HP with a bit more dmg, especially when you can build Atma's later on and convert you tankyness into DPS anyways. Changing the items you are using is gonna greatly increase your overall effectiveness imo.
Again thanks for effort put forth.
I dont know what you are doing wrong, but something is VERY wrong if you cant do wraiths->red without wasting slots on useless quints.
And Shyvana's strength is not her late game. It is her midgame. She is better than any other jungle with a wriggles, boots, wits, and phage and level 2 ultimate. In order to go full late game tank you need to throw away the single best part about shyvana. And late game having dps is better than pure tank on shyvana anyway because you already have natural tankiness. You should NEVER buy more tankiness than what it takes for you to survive a fight. If you need more than a frozen mallet, wits, wriggles, and then some sort of secondary tank item you are either very behind because you played mid game horribly wrong, or teamfighting incredibly poorly.
On March 16 2012 00:47 MapleFractal wrote: IIRC you should only be opening boots on shy if you have the life vamp quints. Otherwise you dont get the necessary sustain to take red, and then make a lvl 2 gank with the buff. Overall I can appreciate the effort put into writting this thread but I feel that the items you are using is gonna greatly increase your overall effectiveness imo. it does not do enough to maximize Shyvanna's potential and strong points through the late game. 4-5k HP dragon late game is much better then moderate HP with a bit more dmg, especially when you can build Atma's later on and convert you tankyness into DPS anyways. Changing Again thanks for effort put forth.
I dont know what you are doing wrong, but something is VERY wrong if you cant do wraiths->red without wasting slots on useless quints.
And Shyvana's strength is not her late game. It is her midgame. She is better than any other jungle with a wriggles, boots, wits, and phage and level 2 ultimate. In order to go full late game tank you need to throw away the single best part about shyvana. And late game having dps is better than pure tank on shyvana anyway because you already have natural tankiness. You should NEVER buy more tankiness than what it takes for you to survive a fight. If you need more than a frozen mallet, wits, wriggles, and then some sort of secondary tank item you are either very behind because you played mid game horribly wrong, or teamfighting incredibly poorly.
Actually Vampirism runes to add 6% lifesteal to total 9% lifesteal without any lifsteal items. It helps greatly in keeping your health high while jungling early and eliminates the need or want to start cloth 5 pots AND is very good for duels and ganks. I disagree with starting boots/3 pots opening w/o the vamp quints, if you wanna start cloth/5 then it doesnt matter, your right. Im not disputing his item choices for mid or core build. You always build the 3 you recommended as well. HOWEVER, BC and BT are only even affordable IF your domination all game long. And you cannot count on that being the case all the time. If you dont agree with basic rune set up there are other viable options to start with but given the option of Boots/3pots or Cloth/5pots. Bots will always win out. AD or MS Quints can be fun but if you try these you will see a difference immediately, try them out see for yourself. Or go read some actual pro guides/watch high level players play Shyvanna.
On March 16 2012 03:47 chalice wrote: when do you first back with boots+3 and no successful gank?
playing with shyvana or udyr i feel like i've failed if i back before 1050g and boots+3 doesn't seem to let you stay out that long.
Shyvana wants to build wriggles, so get pieces for that. Udyr can get boots2 and philo/hog before wits. Typically you back either when low, or after a round of small camps so wraiths are down.
am i over-valuing the increase in clear speed from rushing madred's? i always figured the difference with and without was so drastic that getting vamp first never occurred to me
On March 16 2012 04:02 chalice wrote: am i over-valuing the increase in clear speed from rushing madred's? i always figured the difference with and without was so drastic that getting vamp first never occurred to me
Shyv doesnt need wriggles for the speed, she just really likes all the stats and control that it gives. You dont clear all that much faster with it than without it, but you will stay healtheir with vamp+cloth than madreds.
On other jungles like gp or ww, madreds is certainly a good thing to rush for. But I personally feel the benifit from vamp is greater on Shyv and, say, nocturne. Plus its cheap.
I don't really see why you would get Wit's over finishing Frozen Mallet first. She doesn't really need attackspeed or MR and the constant slow from Mallet makes her way better at killing people.
On March 16 2012 08:08 arnath wrote: I don't really see why you would get Wit's over finishing Frozen Mallet first. She doesn't really need attackspeed or MR and the constant slow from Mallet makes her way better at killing people.
She needs both actually. Wits is a much bigger dps increase than mallet is, and you will need the mr since wits is realistically your only mr buy till late late game.
And as is actually really good on her. It resets your burst (q) and lets you cleave tanks, not just squishies. Remember, her E does bonus damage the more you hit someone. More as=more bonus damage.
Is there anyone who can beat her in jungle? In terms of clear speed and 1v1 fights? My friend was jungling today as Warwick. Not only did he get his jungle raped, but she got such an advantage she went top and babysat her Kennen so I couldn't do jack. Tips?
On March 16 2012 12:50 Mondeezy wrote: Is there anyone who can beat her in jungle? In terms of clear speed and 1v1 fights? My friend was jungling today as Warwick. Not only did he get his jungle raped, but she got such an advantage she went top and babysat her Kennen so I couldn't do jack. Tips?
As for beating her? No. Udyr is as fast and as powerful as she is and mundo is slightly faster, but not enough to actually punish her.
The best way to counter her is to just pick someone fast and keep your own jungle cleared. If she trys to counter you and your shit is down, then you come out ahead.
On March 16 2012 12:50 Mondeezy wrote: Is there anyone who can beat her in jungle? In terms of clear speed and 1v1 fights? My friend was jungling today as Warwick. Not only did he get his jungle raped, but she got such an advantage she went top and babysat her Kennen so I couldn't do jack. Tips?
Nocturne vs Shy pretty skill based. If Nocturne can spell-shield Shyvana's E then it pretty one sided fight in favor of Noct. If you take Exhaust on Noct Shy can't really counter jungle you early because before E Noct wrecks her, and when Shy has E, a smart Nocturne has W.
Noct also has about same speed as Shy come late game, but Shyv faster early game. If you paying attention it not big enough of a difference to get super behind if you able to track her down imo. Lee Sin also kills Shy 1v1 if you can avoid Shyvana's W with smart Q tactics.
On April 13 2012 20:10 Shizuru~ wrote: question: i think it is given to max out W first in jungle, but was just wondering if lvl-ing Q first over E is a good idea.
Nah, Q doesn't scale well. E does more damage if you max it first.
So, i have been jungling with Shyvana a lot, and i feel like i am doing something horribly wrong. Her ganks feel completely anemic to me. Basically the only thing i can do is run at people, then they run away, and thats it. Even if i reach them, if they have flash or a single dash, they take 0 damage from me.
And i think that around my level (1300-ish), the jungler has to have some ganks to be viable. Without good ganks, you can not do anything to help that person that is losing his lane. And i have to compare shyvana with mundo, who is pretty similar to her, but has a ranged slow, and the ganks just don't compare at all. If you hit someone who is overextended in the slightest with a cleaver, which is not that hard to do, they are dead more often then not. If i am Shyvana in a similar situation, they can just run away. I like the shyvana gameplay, and her lategame is pretty fun too, just if i am reliant on my lanes to be ok completely without me i don't think i have that much impact on the game.
On April 30 2012 19:58 Simberto wrote: So, i have been jungling with Shyvana a lot, and i feel like i am doing something horribly wrong. Her ganks feel completely anemic to me. Basically the only thing i can do is run at people, then they run away, and thats it. Even if i reach them, if they have flash or a single dash, they take 0 damage from me.
And i think that around my level (1300-ish), the jungler has to have some ganks to be viable. Without good ganks, you can not do anything to help that person that is losing his lane. And i have to compare shyvana with mundo, who is pretty similar to her, but has a ranged slow, and the ganks just don't compare at all. If you hit someone who is overextended in the slightest with a cleaver, which is not that hard to do, they are dead more often then not. If i am Shyvana in a similar situation, they can just run away. I like the shyvana gameplay, and her lategame is pretty fun too, just if i am reliant on my lanes to be ok completely without me i don't think i have that much impact on the game.
What am i doing wrong?
A) Run exhaust.
B) Positioning is stupidly important. You need to get yourself in a position where they have to go through you to get to safety, ideally with you being inbetween them and their tower. This means instead of going from river you need to come from wraiths/blue mid, or tribrush top/bot.
C) Other option is the lane brush gank. Since you can't just run at people from river, you can get into the lane brushes without your opponents seeing your by making your laners push the lane to tower. Meanwhile you sneak from your tower into the far up lane brush without being seen. When your opponent pushes the lane back into a more neutral position, do the killing.
D) Get a Phage.
That being said, Shy's ganks are pretty bad if they aren't relatively vulnerable already. You guarantee'd a kill if you can get to them, but getting to them can be problematic. Other thing is that you clear so damn fast you don't have to gank efficiently, just gank whenever your jungle is clear... which should be like all the firggen time. Any time you wander into the lane, they zoned.... you zone them enough your lane gets ahead anyway. If they run away and you chunked them, suddenyl your laner has an advantage. You don't have to kill things to get advantages, and good players can easily turn marginal advantages into lane wins, into game wins.
Well, yes, but i am no good player, and i am not playing with good players. If they get a bit ahead, they just push the lane to the limit, don't ward, and get ganked by a more efficient ganker because they overextended. I have watched that happen often enough that the only thing i value in a gank is a kill.
All the other things i am already doing, but when i do the same thing with any other jungler, it just works much better. I basically took shyvana as an alternative to mundo when i can't pick him, and so far i can't see any situation where mundo is not just hands down BETTER. He has a similar clearspeed, maybe even faster, is a good duellant himself, has a speedbuff too, and he has a ranged slow to top that all off.
I think that it might just be that at my level, a pure farmy jungler is not that viable because the percentage of ganks that are successful is that much higher that you need to have at least acceptable ganks.
I find it interesting that your having some trouble, you specifically talk about your elo range and how you may think it varies. I can say from first hand experience, Shy works well in the range your at (I played Shy as a jungler almost exclusively to take myself from 1100-1300 elo, with a win rate of ~75%) I believe she's still my most played champ in ranked, despite having spent a lot of time working on other roles.
Anyway, Shy's strength I feel is her mobility. Being in the right place at the right time pays off. Make use of your awesome farming abilities to farm your jungle, their jungle, and any lane farm thats going to waste. Your ganks dont necessarily have to generate kills like you might expect from other junglers. Run into a lane, pop w, move at them, if you dont do any dmg, leave, no harm done. If you get to them, cool, they flash and get away. Move on, farm more. But the continual presence and pressure creates situations where, you might have someone who actually has no escapes left and has slightly lower HP than normal, or you catch someone out when they make a slightly riskier than normal play.
Force jungle fights, farm farm farm, and dont think of mundo like shy, because shy's ganks will never be anywhere near that. She has other strengths, play to those, instead of trying to turn a weakness into a strength.
On a final side note, one of my most favourite routes is going wolves -> blue (strong leash) -> enemy wraiths -> enemy golems -> gank top (Can work on bot too if your on the other side of the map, more risky). Incredibly fast leveling route that puts you in a position coming down on the enemy lane. If you dont get a kill, you'll probably get some serious dmg down and get a pretty nice lead for your lane. I play a boots + 3 pots doing that route to make sure you stay ahead of the enemy jungler, and be careful doing it against faster junglers or those with non conventional routes.
Shyvana and Mundo are similar, but not quite the same. Shyvana is significantly stronger in 1v1 scenarios, and as you'd expect from a champion with no CC she kills pretty much anyone that is willing to fight her. Mundo has a stronger gank, but Mundo does not have anywhere near the same presence as Shy does in the early mid game.
And I disagree, farmy junglers can be a huge presence in lower ELO games. Perhaps instead of having a huge presence by ganking you can do that by forcing fights because you are counter ganking,prowling in their jungle stealing things, or just flat out putting pressure on an objective like and early tower/dragon. You said you have promblems with your lanes getting ganked? Think ahead that the other jungler may want to gank the lane, ward for them, and be there when their jungler is there. Shyvana kills just about anyone who is willing to fight her, and for whatever reason people are always willing to fight 2v2 situations.
Your laners might give you grief for it, but dont feel bad about taking a back lane and hard pushing it to the tower and doing some big tower damage. So long as you dont start and leave it pushed (aka, the minions will be just out of tower range when your laner gets back) there is no foul done and taking an early tower can really snowball the game quickly. It means your lane can do pressure other lanes and so can you. Especially at that Elo if you can get your team thinking in "lategame!" before their team you can get some pretty big advantages.m You'll hear lots of people complain that they wanted to keep farming champions or whatever, but remember that the main goal is to kill nexuses, and killing towers gets you closer to that goal while giving you a nice marginal advantage in the interim.
After playing a few more games with her, she is indeed not as weak as i thought. Turns out that the first few games i had all my lanes were just losing simultaneously in a devastating fashion (and of course blaming me, sadly i was stupid enough to take some of that serious). You can get kind of efficient ganks if you somehow manage to get to them in the first 1-2 seconds of your w, and thus can continue to refresh it by punching them, getting enough time to do some damage.
I still think that as a complete champion, she is weaker then mundo because of her weaker earlygame due to not having any ccs to actually kill people you win against. To be honest, i don't see how Shyvana is stronger in any 1v1 scenario, given that basically everyone can just walk away from her when they start losing, while if they try that stuff with mundo, they get a cleaver in the back and die. In the teamfight stage, however, i find her to be more useful due to her having lots of AoE, and a more reliable engage with dragon form.
Also, i try to avoid doing stuff that enrages my laners, not because i feel bad when they shout at me, but because they become bad while shouting at me. And usually if i give someone a single reason to start raging, they will continue to do so for the rest of the game, and play horribly bad because they are busy typing instead of playing. It is hard enough to keep the random rage in check if they are angry at someone else, it is completely impossible if they are angry at you.
Just want to correct a few misleading statements on this page
W > q > e, with a point in e at 4. e is a 1 point wonder because it's armor reduction doesn't increase and it's a pretty slow skillshot. leveling q will create a much higher damage output as it scales better and has a lower cooldown
Mundo will beat shyv every time in a 1v1, don't try that fight. Shyv is just a lot safer because of her bailout ult.
Shyv ganks are about angles. With flat AD reds and quints, coming from even slightly behind the enemy laner is a GAURANTEED kill at level 2 because of the speed boost from w, the slow (and triple application) of red, and the humongous nuke that comes from 3 instant auto attacks with 80 ad. I take flash so I can flash after than if they flash, exhaust is also acceptable
On May 01 2012 03:52 deskscaress wrote: Just want to correct a few misleading statements on this page
W > q > e, with a point in e at 4. e is a 1 point wonder because it's armor reduction doesn't increase and it's a pretty slow skillshot. leveling q will create a much higher damage output as it scales better and has a lower cooldown
Mundo will beat shyv every time in a 1v1, don't try that fight. Shyv is just a lot safer because of her bailout ult.
Shyv ganks are about angles. With flat AD reds and quints, coming from even slightly behind the enemy laner is a GAURANTEED kill at level 2 because of the speed boost from w, the slow (and triple application) of red, and the humongous nuke that comes from 3 instant auto attacks with 80 ad. I take flash so I can flash after than if they flash, exhaust is also acceptable
No, W>E>Q is correct. Q scales with your bonus damage, not level. You take E because it scales with levels.
On May 01 2012 03:52 deskscaress wrote: Just want to correct a few misleading statements on this page
W > q > e, with a point in e at 4. e is a 1 point wonder because it's armor reduction doesn't increase and it's a pretty slow skillshot. leveling q will create a much higher damage output as it scales better and has a lower cooldown
Mundo will beat shyv every time in a 1v1, don't try that fight. Shyv is just a lot safer because of her bailout ult.
Shyv ganks are about angles. With flat AD reds and quints, coming from even slightly behind the enemy laner is a GAURANTEED kill at level 2 because of the speed boost from w, the slow (and triple application) of red, and the humongous nuke that comes from 3 instant auto attacks with 80 ad. I take flash so I can flash after than if they flash, exhaust is also acceptable
No, W>E>Q is correct. Q scales with your bonus damage, not level. You take E because it scales with levels.
Errr ... No. Iirc e is a magic damage nuke that scales off ap... You will have neither ap nor magic pen on shyv and your armor reduction is a flat 15% at all levels on e. Q will apply your massive bonus ad from runes, Wriggles, and Phage. You should also have 10% arpen from masteries and the damage from q does increase with levels... You should always have enough bonus damage to make q worth it if you follow a standard shyv build
E gives so much more burst damage than Q it's not even a very fair comparison. Having slightly more armor pen than magic pen doesn't mean squat when maxing one skill gives 70 extra burst damage and another gives like an extra 250.
He is correct in saying E scales with levels. That is, you skill it and it gives you higher burst damage than leveling Q, since the damage goes up significantly while with Q all you get is 5% of your AD on the second hit.
On the other hand if you level Q you reduce the CD a good deal, since both the second hit of Q and subsequent auto attacks reduce the CD. If you're auto attacking a dummy or (in realistic terms) just need that reduced CD to get a second Q off leveling Q is far better mathematically.
Personally IDK which is better. I like Q but everyone and their mother with any authority gets E instead.
On May 01 2012 06:08 phyvo wrote: He is correct in saying E scales with levels. That is, you skill it and it gives you higher burst damage than leveling Q, since the damage goes up significantly while with Q all you get is which gives you 5% of your AD on the second hit.
On the other hand if you level Q you reduce the CD a good deal, since both the second hit of Q and subsequent auto attacks reduce the CD. If you're auto attacking a dummy or (in realistic terms) just need that reduced CD to get a second Q off leveling Q is far better mathematically.
Personally IDK which is better. I like Q but everyone and their mother with any authority gets E instead.
Dont overlook the fact that e becomes an AOE nuke in dragon form, and that E has reduced CD on leveling too.
I didn't. E just can't compete with extra auto attacks for free on a skill that gets flat CDR procced by autos in terms of DPS, unless you're hitting 3 or more targets each time. Technically Q also is AoE in drag form too though the odds of using that AoE more than once are pretty slim. This kind of thing is impossible to theorycraft which is why I say I don't know rather than waving math at everyone's faces.
On May 01 2012 06:14 phyvo wrote: I didn't. E just can't compete with extra auto attacks for free on a skill that gets flat CDR procced by autos in terms of DPS, unless you're hitting 3 or more targets each time. Technically Q also is AoE in drag form too though the odds of using that AoE more than once are pretty slim. This kind of thing is impossible to theorycraft which is why I say I don't know rather than waving math at everyone's faces.
The thing is, Flame Breath makes all your autoattacks that hits debuffed targets deal 15% of the ability's damage as extra magic damage. So assuming you actually hit your E, you will do more damage with it than maxing Q since it effectively buffs all your autos as well, not to mention the resists reduction.
On May 01 2012 06:14 phyvo wrote: I didn't. E just can't compete with extra auto attacks for free on a skill that gets flat CDR procced by autos in terms of DPS, unless you're hitting 3 or more targets each time. Technically Q also is AoE in drag form too though the odds of using that AoE more than once are pretty slim. This kind of thing is impossible to theorycraft which is why I say I don't know rather than waving math at everyone's faces.
The thing is, Flame Breath makes all your autoattacks that hits debuffed targets deal 15% of the ability's damage as extra magic damage. So assuming you actually hit your E, you will do more damage with it than maxing Q since it effectively buffs all your autos as well, not to mention the resists reduction.
Dafaq Since when foes armor reduction make attacks do additional magic damage?
You will do more DPS only if you restrict the window you examine to the 4 seconds after you hit QWE and don't take into account multiple Qs. Look, I mathed this out with resistances and everything. Against a target dummy Q is better. 6.75 additional magic damage per hit and additional 8 DPS from fireball is simply not as good as taking your CD on your two free auto attacks from 7 seconds to 6, actual CD numbers being different because the math for skarner/xin/shyv-Q CDs is a pain in the arse (I did develop a formula for it but geez that was annoying to do).
As I said the actual practical result in game might be different but don't go telling me that Q first is worse against a target dummy, because it isn't.
On May 01 2012 08:29 deskscaress wrote: Since when foes armor reduction make attacks do additional magic damage?
E does additional magic damage when you hit foes that have the debuff. It's just part of the ability.
Wow I am an IDIOT. Never realized that e had an additional magic damage buff too. So with a hit e, you do +15% physical from the reduced armor and +15% bonus magical? Holy shit that's so good. Okay, definitely ready to try an e-max build, you have me convinced. I do bet that q is a bit better In The jungle but there's probably a good balance
- AoE on E better than AoE on Q - Upfront damage way higher on E than Q. Q catches up after you use it a second time, but it doesn't even catch up that much unless you have more AD than is expected. - The CD for E and Q matches up a lot better if you max E first.
On May 01 2012 08:40 deskscaress wrote: Wow I am an IDIOT. Never realized that e had an additional magic damage buff too. So with a hit e, you do +15% physical from the reduced armor and +15% bonus magical? Holy shit that's so good. Okay, definitely ready to try an e-max build, you have me convinced. I do bet that q is s better I. The jungle but there's probably a good balance
After you hit E, your auto + Q combo applies E three times, which adds up to 117 damage just from E procs alone within the span of 1 second.
On May 01 2012 06:07 deskscaress wrote: I'm willing to bet you guys are wrong but I'll give e max a try and report back
On May 01 2012 08:40 deskscaress wrote: Wow I am an IDIOT. Never realized that e had an additional magic damage buff too. So with a hit e, you do +15% physical from the reduced armor and +15% bonus magical? Holy shit that's so good. Okay, definitely ready to try an e-max build, you have me convinced. I do bet that q is a bit better In The jungle but there's probably a good balance
The irony... reading is a good talent toi have At least you can admit when you're wrong.
Note, however, that 15% armor reduction =/= 15% more physical damage. Against someone with 100 armor it's 8% more physical damage. And, again, you get most of that with 1 point in E (just with a higher CD).
If I ever play Shyv again I'll try it out both ways and try not to miss E.
Maxing Q after W is probably better since you will miss a lot of Es. Aspd/apen runes are not nearly as good as AD. Lifesteal quints are great, if you start boots + 3 pots without them you will be too low to do anything early but jungle. The way to gank wih her is always coming from behind and not missing your E. Phage is very good on her.
Well, I just picked shyv up about a week ago and haven't got much time to play. I understand the basics e the thing you're about to q. Counter Jungle when you know timings and know that you're safe. But where I'm lost is if, I'm not ahead, and what to buy after wriggles.
I've done a few different things. My main start has been boot 3 pot, but I just read that doing armor 5 pot is probably better [though doubtful] because you gain more sustain and can do fairly easy exhaust ganks on mid because you'll have more sustain.
Also from that point I'm not 100% sure where to go and why, I enjoy the idea of heavy counter jungle so I love my boot start and doing a level 4 gank on mid or top and trying to snowball top or mid enough that I don't have to do anything except camp bot the rest of the game. But to do so I have to go oracle and at that point I feel i'm too squishy to be much of a threat. So I usually go for wriggles then aegis but a lot of guides say to go for a gp5 after wriggles. Is this before second boot or after? If i grab mobility boots for laning phase then I mind aswell just get an oracles. I'm just lost on what to build and why. I main support so I only buy oracles if i'm behind on my lane and NEED ganks.
Secondly, who do I go for in teamfights. Do i want to debuff as many people as possible? I've snowballed as shyv and just done whatever I wanted but any time i'm not snowballed or ahead in any way I feel completely lost. The last game we played I was vsing nunu so i was farmed less than I usually was and their adc was able to put 1/10 damage chunks on me while I had aegis and wardens mail with the gp5 and ninja tabi. I just feel lost the 10% of the games i'm not ahead.
team fights: You dont really have any peeling power, so the idea is to dive carries, stick to them and make it so that their team needs to peel you/kill you first. If you're appropriately tanky, the carry wont be able to kill you quickly, but also wont be able to ignore you. Make sure you don't go in too far without your team, you can use your ult to peel, and frozen mallet to peel for your carries if you don't have the liberty of diving stuff.
Having a single generic build isn't the best, but if you're going to have one, something like above is pretty good. Early dorans give you pretty beast dmg and survivability early on, allowing for some strong early plays. Aegis early on gives you a moderate damage increase, and a large improvement to your survivability, but also a big increase to team survivability. If you get it early, you'll also be bringing that aura to the majority of early fights, where there are still 2v2/3v3 skirmishes going on, and your support may not have aegis/be present with that aegis. As such, its a pretty big boon.
From here you basically want to build tanky, because shy's dmg doesnt scale that well. At this point in the game, I like to grab a phage, the slow is really good. From there, you can carry on like above, but you also have options. Finish frozen mallet faster if you need the peeling or slow for diving, branch out to triforce if you're doing very well and can see that you will have the income to finish it. Wits end against a team with more magic dmg, or if you feel you want more dmg, but cant afford tri.
At the point where you have aegis, depending on how things are going, it might be worth carrying oracles for your team in the mid game to help clear wards. If you're dying a lot, or don't feel tanky enough to deal with the extra threat of holding oracles, don't waste the gold, but its something that is again good to have, as you'll be the one moving around the map the most.
Early game, wards and potions are something thats good to always carry as you move towards finishing that aegis.
Heart of gold is something that I dont build with Shy, because basically you'd be building it in place of those 2 doran's. You can get it as well as, if you're doing well, but it doesnt offer particularly large amounts of health, and whilst the income is nice, its better to improve your fighting strength early on as that is Shy's strength - early/mid game fights. You want to be as strong as possible in that 15-25 minute time frame, and HoG doesnt serve that purpose. That item slot is much better filled with the Warden's Mail as you build towards randuins, than having a HoG waiting for the gold to finish randuins. (Warden's Mail is a very good item for its price, its something that you can build early if the enemy has numerous AD threats that are doing well. Straight after aegis or phage can work a treat against them)
So is wriggles strictly for counter jungle play? I would assume an early wriggles would let you get an early oracles and just deny vision and counter jungle and overall just be a disruption in laning phase. I like the idea of playing really aggressive in the jungle and just trying to follow their jungler around the map forcing lanes to react to me and making ganking less desirable because it'll always be a 2v2 with me ahead of their jungler because of how much counter jungling I've been doing. I would feel a wriggles > dorans but instead of going a hog I should just go for a few dorans blades? I've been not going for heart of gold on my supports recently and instead building doran shields just because the item is more cost effective on some bruisers, and paying the extra 350 gold for 20 more hp and gold/10 just doesn't seem worth it so I don't know why I didn't apply it to my jungling.
Thanks for replying I didn't really think of going for dorans even though I usually do that if i'm snowballing a leesin. @__@
Ah sorry about being a bit slow with this reply, but wriggles is a good item. It will provide some decent stats for fighting against a lot of other junglers (yay armour) and it does speed up clear times on camps - but it depends which camps. If your doing buff camps or golems, wriggles is significant. If you're taking wraithes or wolves, then its less important as most of your dmg against those camps comes from your W in AoE.
I was definitely an advocate for wriggles when I first started playing Shy - it makes her jungle somewhat safer - you can run to a camp and get significant health return rather than just staying level or making a small gain like you would with dorans. It comes down to play style, I've outlined how I currently like to play her. If you intend to spend the vast majority of your time making risky plays in the enemy jungle, wriggles is good. Along with more wards and health potions.
I would personally stick to dorans - and take a few extra wards. Enter the enemy jungle, ward strategic spots and then hang nearby - and tackle them as they fight a camp, or when they are lower than you, rather than just blindly counter jungling. You wouldnt need a wriggles for this type of play. If you're trying to rush camps out from under them when you know they're somewhere else, a wriggles will help you do it faster. But if its THAT close, then maybe you shouldn't be trying to rush that camp anyway, seeing as there's a chance that you'll get no wriggles procs, and get caught with your pants down.
Wriggles does make sneaking a dragon possible if they don't have it warded - but this presents other risks in of itself.
Slot efficency is the final thing to consider - wriggles definitely has that over dorans blades, especially if you're building up to an aegis, which can fill a bunch of slots as well... add in boots, and the need to carry wards, and wriggles suddenly becomes an attractive option given that it has a ward, and takes one less slot than 2 dorans. The early game build up is not as strong imo though. dorans blade >> vamp + potion in terms of fighting another champion early on. So, depending on how early you want to be fighting in the enemy jungle, well, wriggles could restrict that timing, especially if you fall behind.
Always trade-offs, wriggles is a great item, shy uses it well with her Q for extra chance at procs, and that you might want to be building AS for even more synergy.
Well its not at that point where I'm having troubles to be honest its a bit after my first item, start boots 3 then i need some sort of sustain for jungle whether that be wriggles or dorans its just from there I'm not completely sure what to build, do i get damage if my team is behind to make ganks better. Should I play a counter jungle counter gank style. If i do this I'm banking on my team at least going even in lanes before the ganks happen which is rare in 1500's play either one side is drastically better than the other and it's all on the jungler to gank if its not your side that is better.
Which is the more solid or more "proper" way to play. Which will allow me to consistently get wins regardless of how well my teamates are while still doing my job in the jungle. I've pretty much got down on when to ward camp bot to tax them before my oracles is up mainly because I play support and I know when they have to ward. There is a lot of questions that I don't know because generally I can't do my job properly, either i get oracle early and am too scared to gank or i get it too late and the laning phase is already passed. Too many lanes snowball heavily if I don't gank, but I feel I want to play a counter gank style so I can counter jungle heavily and force ganks and then be there when the gank happens to give a bonus to my lane however I feel lanes lose too early for this style to work and shyvana ganks pre 6 seem kind of trash if i dont have exhaust up.
Thus I've been going wriggles into aegis 80% of my games but I feel its a bit too late. I'm not sure how I would be able to slow down laning phase or prevent people from wanting to teamfight if they just take the first tower as early as possible. Double dorans seems quicker because the gold cost but the ward cost and speed seems like it would tax me more.
Phage hexdrinker aegis and starks or whatever its called now. Skip dblades get an early vamp if your worried but shyvana sustained dps is pretty beast and phage is a necessity. I used yto go wits before the nerf now I like hex and new starks. Having brain fart on name lol.
Ive also gone gunblade with bilgewater first into aegis and it actually felt really strong would have to test more
On November 17 2012 04:35 Bladeorade wrote: Wriggles poopy imo.
Phage hexdrinker aegis and starks or whatever its called now. Skip dblades get an early vamp if your worried but shyvana sustained dps is pretty beast and phage is a necessity. I used yto go wits before the nerf now I like hex and new starks. Having brain fart on name lol.
Ive also gone gunblade with bilgewater first into aegis and it actually felt really strong would have to test more
On November 17 2012 04:35 Bladeorade wrote: Wriggles poopy imo.
Phage hexdrinker aegis and starks or whatever its called now. Skip dblades get an early vamp if your worried but shyvana sustained dps is pretty beast and phage is a necessity. I used yto go wits before the nerf now I like hex and new starks. Having brain fart on name lol.
Ive also gone gunblade with bilgewater first into aegis and it actually felt really strong would have to test more
Do jungle without sustain?
Killing things faster is good enough sustain. Shy clears fast enough that she doesn't really take damage, and just buy pots for the rest. If you're really having issues, buy a Vamp and just hold it until you build it into a Zeke's. Armor and clear speed should take care of the rest.
Edit: of course this all changes in a few weeks when new jungle comes out.
On November 17 2012 04:35 Bladeorade wrote: Wriggles poopy imo.
Phage hexdrinker aegis and starks or whatever its called now. Skip dblades get an early vamp if your worried but shyvana sustained dps is pretty beast and phage is a necessity. I used yto go wits before the nerf now I like hex and new starks. Having brain fart on name lol.
Ive also gone gunblade with bilgewater first into aegis and it actually felt really strong would have to test more
Do jungle without sustain?
Without sustain what do you mean? I buy potions every back. I run AD marks/quints armor yellows and MR/level blues and have no issues. If you are for some reason (idk why) buy a vamp and save it for:
On November 17 2012 04:35 Bladeorade wrote: Wriggles poopy imo.
Phage hexdrinker aegis and starks or whatever its called now. Skip dblades get an early vamp if your worried but shyvana sustained dps is pretty beast and phage is a necessity. I used yto go wits before the nerf now I like hex and new starks. Having brain fart on name lol.
Ive also gone gunblade with bilgewater first into aegis and it actually felt really strong would have to test more
Do jungle without sustain?
Killing things faster is good enough sustain. Shy clears fast enough that she doesn't really take damage, and just buy pots for the rest. If you're really having issues, buy a Vamp and just hold it until you build it into a Zeke's. Armor and clear speed should take care of the rest.
Edit: of course this all changes in a few weeks when new jungle comes out.
Started boots 3, bought a ruby crystal and a vamp scepter on my 1st back. (i got a kill.) Proceeded into Phage -> Zekes -> Aegis -> Tabi -> Frozen Mallet because I needed more health -> Hex drinker -> Won game
Zeke's is definitely another cool item I hadn't mentioned for Shy, another aura to bring to the party! But I'd agree with Blade on phage - it's really good.
How is the love affair with Zeke's going? Only start I can find that works without machete is cloth5, assuming the worst from my leash(aka there being none).
No longer has attack speed but still decent. I think machete into madreds. And sit on it is ok. Phage price nerf hurt. Zephyr seems good. I think madreds phage wriggles is best now unfortunately. I really hate wriggles. Zephyr or wits for AS. Idk gotta play around more shyv seems meh in general now jungling . Ill prolly stick to top
I've just bought Shyv and spammed a bunch of jungle games with her just to try to get a feeling for playing a farming jungler (I didn't jungle much previously).
At my ELO people suck at farming, so I was usually able to keep up with CS (though I don't know how closely average jungle minion value is to average lane minion value).
While Shyv seems pretty strong in 1v1s and late-game teamfights, I definitely felt like her sticking power was lacking. Does anyone here still play a lot of Shyv?
Also, is counter-jungling with her still a worthwhile thing to do in solo queue? It seemed like the camp respawn times were short enough that it wasn't much of an advantage for myself to steal enemy camps, and the risk of getting caught seems pretty high.
Finally, how do people think she compares with Mundo in s3? I had the feeling that late-game Mundo is just more of a threat in team fights and had better early ganks, though Shyv did seem stronger early to mid game if it comes to a head-on fight.
I think Vi really outclasses shyv now in her niche of really fast, bruiser jungle. Vi is definitely way faster clear, more flexible mobility, and her ganks are alot stronger, especially after 6. Teamfighting they are pretty similar initators, both have a nice armor shred, but Vi has the option to have a big disable. Vi also absolutely solo wrecks dragon super safely, which is a huge benefit if you arent coordinated or are trying to carry scrubs. Vi also has really nice AD ratios so you are a lot more flexible in that you CAN build assasin level damage on her if you need to, but also gets synergy with large health pools making her free shield mega fat.
Vi also has no need for expensive hybrid pen runes
On February 14 2013 04:39 sob3k wrote: I think Vi really outclasses shyv now in her niche of really fast, bruiser jungle. Vi is definitely way faster clear, more flexible mobility, and her ganks are alot stronger, especially after 6. Teamfighting they are pretty similar initators, both have a nice armor shred, but Vi has the option to have a big disable. Vi also absolutely solo wrecks dragon super safely, which is a huge benefit if you arent coordinated or are trying to carry scrubs. Vi also has really nice AD ratios so you are a lot more flexible in that you CAN build assasin level damage on her if you need to, but also gets synergy with large health pools making her free shield mega fat.
Vi also has no need for expensive hybrid pen runes
Vi clearing faster than Shyv? That's certainly not what it felt like to me; maybe I was running the wrong runes. I also don't think Shyv needs hybrid pen runes, at least I've never had any problems (or felt slow) without them.
I agree that Vi seems to outclass Shyv in general, I just enjoy trying to find strong picks that aren't FotM, so I was looking to Shyv to see whether she still is as strong a jungler as she used to be. It feels like she's suffered from the fact that everyone can jungle more easily now, plus the general mobility/cc creep that makes it even harder for her to stick to targets.
Shyvana suffered most from the Oracle's nerf. Before you could pick one up and zoom zoom around with W and terrorize every lane and jungle camp. Thus her lack of gapcloser or ranged CC wouldn't be a problem before because she could just exert tremendous vision control.
On February 14 2013 06:16 Requizen wrote: She has fine single target damage between an armor shred, AS steroid, and a reset/double attack. She can blow up single mobs really fast just fine.
Yes but her clear time suffered because when the health was more evenly distributed throughout the camp everything would die to W and the big one to autos + W. Now that the health is mostly in the big creep she still kills the small ones, but takes longer on the big ones so she takes more damage and is a bit slower.
That is how I felt anyway, I used to love jungling Shyv. She seemed quite lackluster when I tried her earlier this season. I also dislike wriggles on her and really liked the old Zekes to Wriggles being a requirement (or at least madreds,) effects my judgement.
Ok guys. I'm trying out top lane Shyvana a lot those days. With a BotrK rush. Seriously, this is SO FUN, it gives her a much needed slow, insane damage, and very high HP regen during fights.
Any tips on the build beside BotrK ? I try to build mallet when I get the occasion, if not I prefer Randuin for the smooth build path. I don't really know how to build her tanking effectively.
What about Locket or Zeke's? I'm not sure how much you value team utility, but CDR for your W is so good for sticking to people, HP is just so good right now, doubly good because Shyv has free resists.
On February 14 2013 06:16 Requizen wrote: She has fine single target damage between an armor shred, AS steroid, and a reset/double attack. She can blow up single mobs really fast just fine.
Yes but her clear time suffered because when the health was more evenly distributed throughout the camp everything would die to W and the big one to autos + W. Now that the health is mostly in the big creep she still kills the small ones, but takes longer on the big ones so she takes more damage and is a bit slower.
That is how I felt anyway, I used to love jungling Shyv. She seemed quite lackluster when I tried her earlier this season. I also dislike wriggles on her and really liked the old Zekes to Wriggles being a requirement (or at least madreds,) effects my judgement.
I wonder if the correct response to this is to skimp levels on W instead of maxing it? Maybe with a few more points in E you can even it back out, W still killing the smalls while your single target damage is higher on the big one.
I'll try it out a bit, I'm thinking R>W=E>Q.
Edit: nevermind Zeke's if your're going BOTRK, you already have a vamp item.
Okay so reporting back on Shyvana after the most recent botrk change, this is in the jungle:
Started Machete 5 into vamp into bilgewater, boots 1 into botrk. Went mercs because I was facing a lot of AP and CC then proceeded to Warmogs, Frozen Mallet and was working on Randuins when we won. I went 8-0-13 so clearly this build was a little expensive but I had so much gold haha.
I really liked botrk I feel it is a good replacement for Old Zekes and the AoE %hp on top of aoe armor shred is really strong. It really increases her damage and I felt it helped me snowball.
This of course just from 1 game but I have a lot of experience with Shyvana last season.
On March 02 2013 11:40 Bladeorade wrote: Okay so reporting back on Shyvana after the most recent botrk change, this is in the jungle:
Started Machete 5 into vamp into bilgewater, boots 1 into botrk. Went mercs because I was facing a lot of AP and CC then proceeded to Warmogs, Frozen Mallet and was working on Randuins when we won. I went 8-0-13 so clearly this build was a little expensive but I had so much gold haha.
I really liked botrk I feel it is a good replacement for Old Zekes and the AoE %hp on top of aoe armor shred is really strong. It really increases her damage and I felt it helped me snowball.
This of course just from 1 game but I have a lot of experience with Shyvana last season.
That that with Q-max?
EDIT: Just did some testing, and just farming the jungle gets you Cutless in like 7 minutes starting Machete+5 and then just Q maxing. Q-W-Q-E, R>Q>E>W
You farm way faster than they Camps could possibly farm, and just one point in W kills small wraiths til about the 10 minute mark. I could see just the sheer amount of free ganking time you have being really strong in terms of putting out map pressure. Even with Cutlass you not a big big threat, but someone can't exactly hard engage top/mid when you can dragon in and win the fight with your run fast & cutlass slow.
It only increases scaling from 80% to 100% ad while e increases damage a ton reduces cooldown and.is applied in a larger aoe.in ult form while increasing your single target dps a ton with magic dmg and on hit magic.
Q already gets reduced cooldown from autos.and doesnt deal nearly as much damage
I´m wondering if Wit´s is still worth getting on her? Afterall she benefits a ton from the AS, and the on-hit damage is great with her q. Maybe against ap-laners or teams? Or do you think it´s completely nerfed to the ground and I would be better off just building a hexdrinker?
Edit: Talking about laning her btw, wasn't really obvious ^^
On April 04 2013 11:09 Solaris.playgu wrote: I´m wondering if Wit´s is still worth getting on her? Afterall she benefits a ton from the AS, and the on-hit damage is great with her q. Maybe against ap-laners or teams? Or do you think it´s completely nerfed to the ground and I would be better off just building a hexdrinker?
Edit: Talking about laning her btw, wasn't really obvious ^^
Wit's got raped, Recurve got raped, get BORK if you're looking for AS+OnHit. Besides, also fixes the problem that Shyvana has of no sustain.
Hexdrinker or Giant's Belt or Aegis are better if you need resilence vs. magic damage.
So i've started playing shyvana top in ranked and it's going much better than I thought it would.
Can be vulnerable early to ranged harass but just straight up BotRK rush with maybe a dblade thrown in and you become an unstoppable split pushing, counter jungling and 1v1 dueling monster. Then I usually get defensive boots, tiamat/hydra and mallet and by then we have won the game.
R>W>E>Q with 21/9/0 and AD/AD/armor/mr.
I'm only silver though so anyone got thoughts on how to improve the build?
On May 19 2013 12:45 dogmatix wrote: So i've started playing shyvana top in ranked and it's going much better than I thought it would.
Can be vulnerable early to ranged harass but just straight up BotRK rush with maybe a dblade thrown in and you become an unstoppable split pushing, counter jungling and 1v1 dueling monster. Then I usually get defensive boots, tiamat/hydra and mallet and by then we have won the game.
R>W>E>Q with 21/9/0 and AD/AD/armor/mr.
I'm only silver though so anyone got thoughts on how to improve the build?
Strangely enough I see Dyrus playing Shyvana top with a similar approach (bork rush), but I really just dont get how she's good vs the more popular top picks.
She all-ins incredibly well, but has issues with champs who can disengage from her when she wants to fight. She really has to sit on someone with W and E active to put out the damage she wants to, but its a TON of damage when she does it successfully. WE Auto Q (more autos while chasing with W) is a ridonkulous amount of damage, but against, say, Renekton or Jayce they will just disengage from you when you use WE and then come back in 2 seconds later when your shit wears off, and you can't do anything.
Because you don't have built in sustain, but your early fight power is so strong, you basically are looking to just dump on them in an all-in early to get control of the lane.
You're also kinda vulnerable to jungle ganks pre-6 because even though you have good wave control, you kinda chill in the middle of the enemy creeps for an extended period of time to push hard, and you like going all-in 1v1 which means you have to be careful about getting baited into a 2v1.
If you get behind, get your vamp scepter then just tank up with Locket and possibly Zeke's (Shyvana is a great Zeke's carrier!) and look to bring your huge base aoe damage and meatiness into teamfights.
Favorite teammates: Orianna, Diana - Shyvana does huge aoe damage in dragon form, especially as a top laner who has the freedom to buy some offensive items (up there with Rumble and MF) but she needs "help" clustering people up. Like Rumble, she can provide the aoe damage half of "Press R to win" but you REALLY need your allies to bring the "CC" part - though the 'carry' effect of Dragon's Descent works really well with ball delivery for Command:Shockwave.
What are people building on Shyv nowadays? I haven't checked up on her since beginning of S3. Still rushing phage or does Cutlass' active fit the bill? Boot/Spirit Buff are obvious.
I don't think Shyvana need Spirit items, because she doesn't require mana regen, nor AOE clearing. Also CDR is kinda waste on her (Dragon form only scales with AS), so Spirit Golem is meh.
Now I buy Madred at 1st recall if i expect dealing with physical damage, or buy Vamp Scep (Cutlass later). Then buy Warmog/Locket, get Aegis/Bulwark, then Randuin/BotRK.
My standard's been Wriggle's -> Boots 2 -> Locket/Warmog. Situational after that, and I'll stay on Madred's and skips Wriggle's if I'm meaningfully behind.
On June 26 2013 11:47 walrus wrote: I don't think Shyvana need Spirit items, because she doesn't require mana regen, nor AOE clearing. Also CDR is kinda waste on her (Dragon form only scales with AS), so Spirit Golem is meh.
Now I buy Madred at 1st recall if i expect dealing with physical damage, or buy Vamp Scep (Cutlass later). Then buy Warmog/Locket, get Aegis/Bulwark, then Randuin/BotRK.
Saint had a video where he went LS2 and picked up Boots/Vamp on back. Seemed pretty strong.
On June 26 2013 11:47 walrus wrote: I don't think Shyvana need Spirit items, because she doesn't require mana regen, nor AOE clearing. Also CDR is kinda waste on her (Dragon form only scales with AS), so Spirit Golem is meh.
Now I buy Madred at 1st recall if i expect dealing with physical damage, or buy Vamp Scep (Cutlass later). Then buy Warmog/Locket, get Aegis/Bulwark, then Randuin/BotRK.
shyvana is going to be my next "project" to relearn after i get my udyr fix out of the way. but from my knowledge of s2 shyvana, i want to say that i think that "cdr is a waste on her" is pretty wrong.
while you're right that dragon form DOES scale with AS, you have to remember that her AS, in a way, also scales with CDR. as she will get 2 hits worth of dragonrage from using her Q, having her Q on cd for a shorter time means faster dragon as well
additionally, dragonform is not necessarily her best skill anyway. i think having W always available (for chasing or fleeing) is a huge necessity on her, and CDR definitely helps there.
anyway, gonna do testing on silver-level shyvana soon and i'll be posting here.
Zeke's should be a really strong item on Shy, and I can see her also getting Aegis from the jungle. Unfortunately Shy benefits from high farm, which is not really something a jungler is getting in the current meta.
I feel that if you do play her as a farm jungler though, a aegis/zeke's/mallet core would make her pretty fantastic at peeling and provide a lot of team stats. The new wits end is also fantastic on her (old wits end was great anyway) and I could see Zephyr working pretty sweet as well if you were going for non-merc boots. I've been wanted to try some form of boots start with util masteries for ls/spell vamp, and seeing if its possible to play her as a farm jungler and skip a standard jungle item in favour of Zeke's
If you're going to build a jungle item though, I feel that wriggles and golem both have a place. Wriggles (or razors) feel really nice on Shy for clear, but clearing is something she's never had problems with
Anybody try have hybrid marks and quints? I want to test out 6 hybrid/3 as marks & 3 hybrid quints for the 12 armorpen + higher magic damage on early ganks but I don't have 6k ip to drop on the quints. =[
BotRK is great and all, but also really expensive on jungle income. It is a fantastic choice for a damage item if you can afford it, but I've always built Shy moderately tanky, so finding the gold for BotRK would be tricky.
As for the hybrid runes, it's a pretty significant investment as you point out, if you don't regularly play Shy or other champs who use them, it's probably not worth it. Personally I'm a massive fan of movement speed quints on Shy.
On July 20 2013 20:01 Wetty wrote: BotRK is great and all, but also really expensive on jungle income. It is a fantastic choice for a damage item if you can afford it, but I've always built Shy moderately tanky, so finding the gold for BotRK would be tricky.
As for the hybrid runes, it's a pretty significant investment as you point out, if you don't regularly play Shy or other champs who use them, it's probably not worth it. Personally I'm a massive fan of movement speed quints on Shy.
With her passive, I feel she can be a bit more aggressive in early item choices. Cutlass helps her ganking greatly.
On July 20 2013 20:01 Wetty wrote: BotRK is great and all, but also really expensive on jungle income. It is a fantastic choice for a damage item if you can afford it, but I've always built Shy moderately tanky, so finding the gold for BotRK would be tricky.
As for the hybrid runes, it's a pretty significant investment as you point out, if you don't regularly play Shy or other champs who use them, it's probably not worth it. Personally I'm a massive fan of movement speed quints on Shy.
With her passive, I feel she can be a bit more aggressive in early item choices. Cutlass helps her ganking greatly.
Hm. I found phage wasn't too bad still, I haven't yet tried Cutlass early though. Still running Smite/Exhaust and having a TON of success with the exhaust as a peeling tool in teamfights midgame.
I haven't tried Hybrid marks, but AD marks/quints give you a crazy fast clear. (Remember, W has a reasonable bonus AD ratio.)
Spirit of Ancient Golem is amazing on her (CDR was always rather strong) and I've just been building phage -> standard jungler (Aegis/Locket) after that.
Wit's is pretty good but I feel like I need to be really fed before I can fit it in. Perhaps on toplane Shyv.
Skill order is pretty clearly W>Q>E now though. With the autoproc damage always at 2%, even level 1 E contributes a lot of damage.
And she melts dragon, if only she had sustain! (So I guess I really should try out cutlass, huh.)
I'm thinking Cutlass + Ancient Golem -> another defense item [Aegis or something] -> BORK when I can finish it.
I also tried out zeke's on her, but we were also snowballing out of control that game, so it's hard to say if the zeke's was great or just good enough that it didn't ruin a snowballing game.
I tried doran start on her that game as well, but even with 4% lifesteal quints and doran's, I didn't feel healthy enough to do a lot after the initial sweep. Then I recalled and went top just as trundle was getting chased to 2nd turret and turned the fight around to get trundle doublebuffs and their jungler just became a nonfactor at that point.
Been playing a little bit of shyvanna and she feels SO GOOD NOW.
The best thing is her E going through creeps it just feels so much better.
Also w/ creeps spawning faster and stuff she can farm SO fast. I was like 2 lvls ahead of a nautilus by like lvl 5 who was ganking to mild effect. End of the game I was 18 he was 13.
I do like wriggles a lot on her though. I like to secure dragon reaaally early. Buy a pink and pink it myself and then solo it or do it w/ support @ lvl5 or something. Shyvanna is so great for dragon control esp. when she has wriggles.
That said new wriggles shorter ward timer is annoying.
I loved playing shyvanna in the jungle. She clears very fast and can easily 1v2 if you get ahead early game. Only problem is that her ganks are really weak with no CC. And I am really not good at relying on counterganking - does anyone have a video on this=?
Here's how I think of counterganking (but would appreciate someone better than I to comment in case I'm misinforming you.)
Your #1 priority is to farm. You should only counterjungle in the following situations 1) You see opponent jungler gank in a lane far away from jungle. You can now run into their jungle 2) Nearby lanes (esp. mid) are pushed. This means they can come help out if you encounter the enemy jungler. 3) You have good wards in the jungle. TBH you should probably carry 1-2 if you're planning on counterjungling, and put them down in spots so you have a little time to make your getaway if someone comes.
Some combo of 1-3 of these are usually for the best.
DONT counter jungle if 1) You could probably get more farm from your own jungle anyway 2) There is any risk of dying
Another thing to keep in mind: You really need to think critically about where the jungle is right now. Say it's 2:55 and you just finished your 2nd buff. Guess what, the other jungler is probably only slightly behind you and is planning to gank somewhere. Evaluate your lanes: are any pushed and in a logical place for the opposing jungler to gank? You might wanna head over there and camp the lane brush. Maybe they will gank and you can countergank (Shyvanna is excellent in 2v2s thanks to tankiness and DPS output). If not, maybe you can wait for the lane to push back. But don't wait too long because you can't forget priority #1!!!
Lets say it's 7:00. Their blue buff is probably coming up. Great time to head into their jungle if your mid lane does not need blue buff immediately.
Wards in the opponent's jungle can be key for finding the jungler + figuring out which camp he is at or whether he is going b. Take advantage of every glimpse of the jungler you see, you might be able to catch them off gaurd w/ your midlaner!
Again, keep in mind that your 1st priority as Shyv is to get farmed because she scales poorly w/o items because she has not disables.
Side note: I like running ghost sometimes. Ghost + red buff makes shyv a solid ganker.
I actually strongly disagree with "Don't counter jungle if you could get more farm from your own jungle anyway" Anything you take out of the enemy jungle is also taken away from them (unless they walk into your jungle at a mirror time) and thus has increas
Don't counterjungle a nonbuff while leaving your buffs up, but otherwise you are fair HUNTING the enemy jungler while clearing his camps as long as your laners have even a SLIGHT advantage over their opponents. You don't need your laners to help, you just need enemy laners to not be in good shape to help BETTER than your own laners laners.
Shyv doesn't need tons of farm, her base stats are amazing. She wants to bully the other jungler out of the game.
Shyvanna is a really abusive top laner in some matchups! She can basically pull a singed by shoving you to turret constantly, then proxying your waves, stealing your jungle, or roaming to mid lane.
Anyone without sustain or that has a mana dependency is generally going to have a rough time. Worth trying!
whenever I used to play w/ a shyvanna toplane on my team for whatever reason she would always go like 3-0-0 laning phase and dominate her lane.
She is really good top and her all-in potential is pretty good w/ ghost, but if she falls behind she is screwed.
sylverfyre: counterjungling is risky buisiness in soloQ. Unless you feel very confident in your relative strength of yourself, your laners, and how pushed the lanes are, I would not even think about counterjungling. If you do feel confident with these concepts, I don't think you need me to explain to you how to counterjungle!
Otherwise, I think it's best to stick w/ your own jungle as shyvanna. The guidelines I gave were pretty much foolproof ways of getting into and out of there jungle while staying alive/ahead.
I disagree that shyv doesn't need tons of farm. Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't. It entirely depends on the status of the game.
For example: You are against a Mao who is ganking all the time but farming slowly and you are up 2 levels on him because he has been ganking and you have been farming. When a fight at dragon rolls or you are there when he ganks bot, you are going to CRUSH that teamfight with the extra CS and levels. Maybe Mao secures a kill or a few summoners but you are guaranteed to outfarm anyone in a straight up farm-off.
The way I play shyv is I try to be as efficient as possible when farming. If someone is blatantly overextended, yes, I will gank. But otherwise I just farm patiently, wait for the opponent jungler to gank, and go counterjungle + ward their jungle or gank myself. When you play shyvanna it's basically up to them to make mistakes because once you hit lvl 6 and you have a lantern and a pink ward, you only have to let jungle go top for you to secure dragon. They might snowball a lane but as shyv you're going to be snowballing the game.
So i've been playing a lot of Shyvana lately since I got Ironscale skin which I think is sexy as hell. I started playing her in the jungle and though I love her clear times and overall power, I wasn't very successful there since she doesn't have the greatest ganks and really needs items to perform as an initiator in teamfights since she has no way to escape or avoid damage after dragon form.
I decided to try her out in top lane and I feel like she is actually very strong there right now. I use these runes and masteries :
3 Hybrid Penetration quintessences 6 Hybrid Penetration marks + 3 Attack Speed marks 9 Flat Armour seals 9 Flat Magic Resist glyphs (don't have scaling ones but i'd probably run those instead if I did)
9/21/0 Masteries
For items I will build Shyvana quite tanky. The only dps item I will get unless the game goes to 6 slots is BotRK because it synergizes nicely with her health shred with attack speed and the passive ability. Furthermore, the active on it is great for Shyvana to allow her to stick to her target more easily. In most games I will get a Randuins Omen and a Spirit Visage/Locket as well. I like Randuins in particular on her because she has such fantastic initiation and can hit multiple people with the active, which once again, allows you to stick on your targets better. If the game goes very long then I will pick up another tank item, Thornmail if appropriate or perhaps a Guardian Angel if there is not so much ad on the enemy team. For a 6th slot I generally like Wit's End for some more attack speed which is nice for Shyvana's cooldowns and health shred.
In lane I only have trouble with bruisers with a huge amount of sustain like Renekton or Yorick. You can trade well enough with these guys usually coming out on top, but without any sustain of your own you will end up losing in the long run. Ranged opponents like Jayce or Kennan can be irritating pre-6 but after that you should be too strong for them to hurt you much.
In teamfights I think Shyvana is a really fantastic initiator because she can corral people with her ultimate and group them up. She is incredibly tanky with top lane farm and because of her high base stats and abilities does a huge amount of aoe damage. Because of that she works very well in an aoe comp, and with champions like Orianna and Lulu who can shockwave people into your aoe or Wild Growth you to knock-up/slow them.
In short, I think Shyvana is much better in the top lane then the jungle because I think she requires farm to properly initiate in teamfights without melting instantly. This is her best quality and she can't utilize it on a junglers budget.
What do other people think about Shyvana in the top lane?
So after having a blast with Shyvana in the jungle her build was fairly obvious. The standard Golem + Locket is practically designed for her. The problem is when top lane, or when I feel I need a damage item on her I'm still confused as to what to get. Riot apparently recommends Hydra but I'm not really sold, Feels like you want attack speed and Wits End is pretty weak right now so that leaves Triforce or Blade of the Ruined King.
So what damage item does everyone else usually get? for top lane I usually go like Sunfire + Belt + damage item then finish warmogs/randuins/mallet depending. Or is it just a flat AD item like Hydra to help your burnout?
I think BotRK is fantastic on her. It grants attack speed like wit's end and does health shred which complements her E for around 7% hp per aa total. The active helps her stick to targets as well. Hydra is redundant on her because burnout already clears minions so quick.
I've played against Shyvana top a few times, and I've felt it was pretty obnoxious. Jungler didn't ever try to gank her, so she just shoved all day long and then stole their wraiths and golems, leading to a massive level disparity pretty quickly. I feel like her E helps her shred some of the tanky tops you usually see (Renekton, probably Shen).
I should probably start experimenting with her more top lane. My one concern is the jungler/mid need more cc to compensate for her lack of it.
I actually really like Hydra on her, although this is mostly from ARAM experience, so I'm not really sure if that would transfer to SR. I usually run attack speed marks when I do that, and get a brutalizer. Hydra active+twin bite+ lots of flat AD + flat armor pen=squishy that dies really fast. I suspect having two offensive items on SR wouldn't be optimal though.
For burst, I suspect Hydra beats out BotRK and Triforce though, at the cost of stickiness. I think you can probably rely on Randuin's and/or Frozen Mallet for that though. I'll do some math on this later (if I remember :>).
On October 15 2013 08:38 zer0das wrote: I've played against Shyvana top a few times, and I've felt it was pretty obnoxious. Jungler didn't ever try to gank her, so she just shoved all day long and then stole their wraiths and golems, leading to a massive level disparity pretty quickly. I feel like her E helps her shred some of the tanky tops you usually see (Renekton, probably Shen).
I should probably start experimenting with her more top lane. My one concern is the jungler/mid need more cc to compensate for her lack of it.
I actually really like Hydra on her, although this is mostly from ARAM experience, so I'm not really sure if that would transfer to SR. I usually run attack speed marks when I do that, and get a brutalizer. Hydra active+twin bite+ lots of flat AD + flat armor pen=squishy that dies really fast. I suspect having two offensive items on SR wouldn't be optimal though.
For burst, I suspect Hydra beats out BotRK and Triforce though, at the cost of stickiness. I think you can probably rely on Randuin's and/or Frozen Mallet for that though. I'll do some math on this later (if I remember :>).
In the pro/am games I've been seeing, Shyvana will grab a quick cutlass in lane phase before going tanky and use the active to aid ganks. From there it's Sunfire/SV trololololol all day. Frozen Mallet is aweful.
Hydra would be pretty amusing if DragQ still triggered AOE on all targets like Tiamat did in S2.
I haven't played it myself, but from watching top streamers get demolished by Shyvana, most seemed to go unkillable+some damage. I guess that's Defense heavy masteries? Only one heavy hitting Shyvana seen, but OTOH it snowballed ridoncilously.
On October 15 2013 04:32 Pantagruel wrote: I think BotRK is fantastic on her. It grants attack speed like wit's end and does health shred which complements her E for around 7% hp per aa total. The active helps her stick to targets as well. Hydra is redundant on her because burnout already clears minions so quick.
BotRK feels much better than Hydra on her, the AS and % damage together with E and W makes you kill shit so fast
On October 15 2013 04:32 Pantagruel wrote: I think BotRK is fantastic on her. It grants attack speed like wit's end and does health shred which complements her E for around 7% hp per aa total. The active helps her stick to targets as well. Hydra is redundant on her because burnout already clears minions so quick.
BotRK feels much better than Hydra on her, the AS and % damage together with E and W makes you kill shit so fast
On October 15 2013 04:32 Pantagruel wrote: I think BotRK is fantastic on her. It grants attack speed like wit's end and does health shred which complements her E for around 7% hp per aa total. The active helps her stick to targets as well. Hydra is redundant on her because burnout already clears minions so quick.
BotRK feels much better than Hydra on her, the AS and % damage together with E and W makes you kill shit so fast
On April 10 2014 12:40 walrus wrote: So I gave Shyvana a try after patch 4.5 came Vietnamese server.
Her clearing speed is very good with Lantern. The point is I can't get Feral Flare on time (my timing is 20 min).
Could anuybody post his timing?
Shyvana has one of the fastest clear times as a jungler, so you shouldn't have any problem getting a Feral Flare. She has disappointing ganking power compared to other popular junglers such as Vi and Wukong, so most of your early game to mid game will be spent on farming anyways. 20 minutes seems unusually long to reach the 25 stacks required for Feral Flare.
Shyvana has one of the fastest clear times as a jungler, so you shouldn't have any problem getting a Feral Flare. She has disappointing ganking power compared to other popular junglers such as Vi and Wukong, so most of your early game to mid game will be spent on farming anyways. 20 minutes seems unusually long to reach the 25 stacks required for Feral Flare.
My teammates constantly begged me for a gank. =( But if I focus more on farming, I will get it at around 15 min mark.
When getting Lantern, should I Recall immediately if having enough money for Madred? Or keep farming until no potion left?
Shyvana has one of the fastest clear times as a jungler, so you shouldn't have any problem getting a Feral Flare. She has disappointing ganking power compared to other popular junglers such as Vi and Wukong, so most of your early game to mid game will be spent on farming anyways. 20 minutes seems unusually long to reach the 25 stacks required for Feral Flare.
My teammates constantly begged me for a gank. =( But if I focus more on farming, I will get it at around 15 min mark.
When getting Lantern, should I Recall immediately if having enough money for Madred? Or keep farming until no potion left?
Wriggle's/Feral stacks accumulate starting from Hunter's Machete, so just recall back to base when you deem fit. I usually have enough for Madred's, boots, a few pots, and usually a ward on my first back.
Shyvana has one of the fastest clear times as a jungler, so you shouldn't have any problem getting a Feral Flare. She has disappointing ganking power compared to other popular junglers such as Vi and Wukong, so most of your early game to mid game will be spent on farming anyways. 20 minutes seems unusually long to reach the 25 stacks required for Feral Flare.
My teammates constantly begged me for a gank. =( But if I focus more on farming, I will get it at around 15 min mark.
When getting Lantern, should I Recall immediately if having enough money for Madred? Or keep farming until no potion left?
If you want to buy madred early you can do: Blue > Wolves > Wraith > Golem > Ward Red > Back & Buy Madred > Red
I think anything else, you should just farm till your low health
I get a 14-15 minute feral flare after doing a gank or two.
Also: does anyone else have an issue where sometimes when you ult it won't knockback your target even though they appear to be dead center of your ult? I swear at least once or twice a game the knockback just doesn't happen and a sure kill is just gone because now I'm a screen away and my target didn't travel with me for no apparent reason.
EPT![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflegends/images/f/f6/ShyvanaSquare.png)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflegends/images/1/19/FuryoftheDragonborn.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflegends/images/b/b1/TwinBite.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflegends/images/2/29/Burnout.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflegends/images/5/5d/FlameBreath.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflegends/images/7/70/Dragon%27sDescent.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Jn8Tn.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JLN7L.jpg)
. Also, on China server 90% of the population have no way to obtain more than 2 runes pages. Since Tencent(the company that run LoL in China) decided not to sell rune pages for IP or even RP. more than 6 months since the servers up and running, Tencent only sell like 1000 rune pages for a price of 40USD/5 pages. And that sold out like within a few hour back in December of last year. -_-![[image loading]](http://i48.tinypic.com/ojl3kn.jpg)
