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The Non Ideal Jungle: Dealing with Counterjungling

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Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 04:00:40
March 15 2012 00:36 GMT
#1
The Non Ideal Jungle aka T_D's 6k post

Any guide for a jungle champion will tell you the rune set up, masteries, and item build you should be using. It will also tell you the path you should take, how many times you need blue, and whether or not you can go into the enemy jungle.

What it WONT tell you is what to do if you get screwed over, either in champion select or as the game unfolds. That’s what I am going to try to spend my 6k post trying to explain.

Now, everything described below is intended for a solo q format. Arranged 5 differs because you are able to better coordinate with your team, which allows you more freedom when picking and playing. Solo q is a crapshoot. Play it as such.

Getting Counterpicked

For some reason counterpicking junglers is one of the least talked about, and least thought about, part of picking a team. While not on the level of, say, picking your top, a jungle counterpick can certainly hit just as hard (and is about as easy) as a mid counterpick, and in many cases much more effective than trying to counterpick a bot lane.

There are generally 2 ways to counterpick a jungle: speed and power.

Speed is easy to grasp. It SUCKS to try to run WW against a competent Shyvana or Udyr. Whoever can clear jungle spawns will have an innate advantage in jungle, just like not having mana creates an innate advantage in lane. While some matchups, like the one listed above, are easy to grasp, others are not.

Just being faster doesn’t really mean that much. It is the degree that matters. Mundo will clear slightly faster than Shyvana, but because both are very quick, you cannot really take advantage of your speed early on. How early in the match you are is another big factor when looking at speed. Nocturne, for example, will speed up considerably as he gains levels in his q. Skarner, on the other hand, is slowed because of his mana constraints. These factors have a huge influence on how much jungle control you can have as the game goes on.

Power gets to be a little more tricky. It is much harder to correctly grasp the relative power of one champion to another because of how much effect builds have. A Lee Sin with boots is very different from a Lee Sin with a dorans blade, for example. Power is also generated through leveling and farm. If you are behind in levels or farm, even if you are playing a champion with greater 1v1 power, you will probably die.

An important thing to note about power, however, is that while speed is a passive benefit and can be used as such (i.e., taking your creeps simply because you cannot get to a camp in time) trying to counterpick someone through sheer power means that you have to actually find them in the jungle and try to bait a fight. While the gain can be higher (getting kills and completely shutting someone out of the game) it is also much riskier: instead of being able to sneak around, you directly expose yourself to the enemy team.

How can I tell if I just got counterpicked:

This can actually be a bit difficult. Not only does it vary based on the champions selected, it also involves being able to discern the mindset of the opposing player. For example, you don’t know if a Lee Sin has exhaust because he intends to find you in your jungle and kill you, or if he intends to gank the everliving hell out of your lanes. One has direct relevance to the way you need to play out your game. The other is someone else’s problem.

That being said, the general rule of thumb I would advise would be to always assume that they are gunning to take you out. Trust me, you would rather play under that assumption and be wrong than be wandering to your red, only to find a Shaco with a JITB sitting in the bush. It’s not fun (unless YOU are the Shaco. In which case it is VERY fun).

That aside, here is a grid I made a while ago ranking champs on various characteristics. I wouldn’t claim its perfect, but it does a decent job of demonstrating where champions fit. The relevant categories for this discussion are Clear Speed, 1v1, and Counterjungle. I separate speed from actual counterjungle because someone like Amumu, while pretty quick, isn’t really a huge counterjungle threat.

THIS IS JUST A ROUGH ESTIMATE AND MASSIVE GENERALIZATION OF EVERY CHAMPION. BESIDES, THIS IS ABOUT COUNTERJUNGLING. THIS IS ONLY HERE FOR A ROUGH ESTIMATION OF SPEED AND POWER. I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO PULL THIS OUT, BUT I WILL

As for the actual key for the chart:
+++ is excellent
++ is average
+ sucks
B means requires blue for at least 1 clear to hit that speed.
W means they will likely have a wriggles to assist with dragon.
Being split (i.e. Nocturne’s gank rating) means there are factors that cause that rating to change (for Noct, it’s the level his ult is at).
Getting +++ in Drag control means you can solo drag
Getting +++ in late game tank requires having a skill that boosts your tankiness (anyone is tanky if they just get tank items). This also takes into account what you buy. Trynd, Riven, and J4 arent going atmogs.

[image loading]

It’s the best way I can come with to try to show or explain how champions interact, because, as I already pointed out, there are quite a few factors that make gauging which champ is faster or stronger change drastically. This means that while the chart is meant to give you a ballpark idea of how strong a champ is relative to others, there is a very strong possibility it is wrong. There is no substitute for game experience. Jungle enough, and you will figure out where champions stand relative to each other. I cant do it for you.

(And no, I am not going to fucking argue the grid. Keep your opinions on ranks to yourself. Neo and Craton already looked it over anyway. Blame them if you don’t like it)

I think I just got counterpicked. What do?

Stage 1: Items

If you are scared of getting countered, stop and think when you buy your items. If the enemy team has a Lee Sin or a Shaco, it is probably a bad idea to open Vamp Scepter. Grab boots+3, or if you are feeling very scared, go cloth+5. It isn’t efficient, but efficiency doenst mean squat if you are dead. This is the case for any time you are going to be fighting 1v1, even if you are the stronger one. Things don’t always go according to plan. That’s why pots rock. (Unless, of course, you are going for a dorans blade cheese. But that’s a completely different story)

It’s harder to itemize if someone is faster than you and going to be trying to invade, mostly because you really cant itemize speed. Just get what you normally do. But remember, they will be in your jungle, which means you may have to fight them, so re-read the paragraph above about items to get.

Stage 2: Go on the offensive

One of my biggest pet peeves in LoL is playing out a game intending to let an enemy team do exactly what they want to do, but attempting to minimize the damage. I think this is a horrible way to play. In my opinion, its much better to make sure they cant do what they want to do in the first place. Or, in this case, make it so that letting the enemy do what they want isn’t going to hurt you.

My favorite thing to do when playing a weaker jungle is to jack the enemy red (or blue if they start at red) at level 1, with your entire team. Why? Because it works. Provided you can get your team to move together, it is low risk. And if you are able to pull it off, the worst that can happen to you from that point on in the initial jungle phase (i.e. before first back) is that you are going to be equal with the stronger jungle in terms of exp and gold. If I am WW and take an Udyr’s red, even if he gets my red after he does his blue, we are going to be even. And if he decides not to invade? Well, then I have 2 red buffs, am ahead of him, and on a fast track to level 6.

Now, invading is always risky. You need to make sure your team moves together. You always want to ensure that you aren’t seen by the enemy until YOU want to bee seen. You also want to be careful when invading against teams with strong level one fights. Best way to do that is to assume that they are invading your stuff and go where they aren’t. Which can be tricky. But most of the time level one teams prefer to be on the offensive (Blitzcrank, for example) than being on the defensive. Just make sure that you always move as a group so that if you are engaged on, hopefully you can either escape or make it an even trade.

Sometimes this strategy backfires. But most of the time, if you can do it properly, you will be just fine.

Also: make sure to brief your team. If you expect the enemy to be in your jungle, make sure your team is ready to move at the sight of an enemy. Counterjungling, just like drops or a DT rush in BW, is a risky strategy. It takes time out away from the enemy, but they are attempting to make sure that it hurts you more than it hurts them. If you can turn this on them, you come out ahead. It doesnt even mean getting a kill: just chasing them off before they can do any damage will put you significantly ahead.

Stage 3: Bribe someone to ward for you.

Pretty simple. The easiest way to shut down getting counter jungled is to ward.

[image loading]

Blue side: Have your support drop a ward at your wraiths (lower pink) and at the upper red. Congratulations! You have just completely protected your own jungle, as well as covered every gank path for the purple side jungler to get to bot lane.

Purple side: This is a bit more difficult because you will be hard pressed to convince your top to buy a ward for you, or for your support to drop 2 wards top. The best thing that you can do is have someone drop a ward at either the upper pink or upper green. You wont be able to tell if the enemy jungle enters if they go up through top side, but you will at least know your wraiths are safe and that you have a safe escape path to get back to your solo mid for backup.

Stage 4: Get to the point you picked the character for

This is pretty simple. If you picked a slow character, its most likely because they get stronger as they level (Shen, WW, GP). Your primary goal is to farm your ass off till you hit that point. If you can hit a gank and get some kill exp or lane farm, all the better. But your goal is to hit that point as soon as you can. Everything you do should be geared toward making that come faster.

If you picked a character who is weaker early on, simply get enough levels and farm to ensure you wont die in a 1v1 fight, or can at least survive long enough for help to arrive.

Stage Infinity: Constantly evaluate your own strength and speed relative to your opponent’s.

Always remember that just because you started off weaker than they did, it does not mean that you will always be weaker. As soon as you can, look to turn on them. If you become faster, jack wraiths on your way to (or from) a gank mid. If they keep invading you but you are stronger (or know that you can count on your team for help) fight them.

Unfortunately, I cannot tell you when this happens. Only experience will tell you when this starts to happen. Best I can do is just tell you to try, fail a bunch, and eventually you will learn.

Playing from behind: losing jungle control

So that is dealing with getting counterpicked and playing it off so as not to get super far behind. But what happens when you DO get boned.

I am not going to lie. This is, by far, the worst feeling in LoL. There is nothing as depressing as losing all jungle control and having the enemy team wander into your jungle any time because they know they have nothing to fear. They kill you, take your buffs, and your team is constantly blaming you for failing really hard. It sucks. Its also one of the hardest things to come back from. That’s why you want to be proactive to prevent it from getting worse.

Lets pretend you get behind. The enemy jungle is able to clear the entirety of your red side. Or worse, you get killed in your own jungle. The first thing that you MUST do is take steps to make sure it does not get any worse.

First, make sure that you ward the entrances to your jungle. If you go back up to the map above, you will notice that ideally, every lane should cover your entrances for you. Make sure you get them to do so. Beg if you have to. Buy a ward and plop it at whatever entrance is unwarded.

The effect of this is two-fold. First, it lets you farm in peace without having to worry about getting jumped, which means you can to catch up by cutting little things from your build. Buying 1 less potion, staying in jungle a little bit longer at less than full health in order to get an extra camp before the enemy jungle steals it. Little things that will let you catch back up. The second reason is because it gives you a good idea of where the enemy is at all times, which means if you see them enter your jungle, you can kill them, which is just about the fastest way you can catch back up.

Besides warding, make sure you get as much farm as you can. This means farm all the camps everywhere. Look for farm opportunities when your laners leave. You need all the help you can get to try to force your way back into the game.

Lastly, buy smart. Junglers already need to be smart with how they spend gold because of how little they get relative to lanes. If you are behind, spend smarter. Try to get Gp10 and extend the game. Don’t go for damage (which is expensive); go for tankiness (which isn’t). Even if you can’t kill people, at least you will stop dying. If you can come back and stretch the game out long enough, then you can buy damage. But your primary goal is to make sure that the game continues long enough for you to cancel out your deficit.


How to avoid this situation entirely

Simple: pick smart. Don’t deliberately pick into bad match ups. If they pick a Shyvana, stay away from GP or WW, go with Udyr, Mundo, Skarner, even Nocturne is fast enough at early levels to prevent falling behind very badly.

The best way to make counterjungling have no effect is to just keep your own jungle clear. If you pick someone who is fast enough to do that, you will come out ahead because of wasted travel time.

If the enemy picks a power hero, don’t pick someone frail like Amumu. Pick a strong, speedy clearer who will be able to quickly scale past the damage from the enemy jungle. This means doing something like picking Shyvana or Udyr against a Lee Sin or Shaco.

If, on the other hand, you are picking first, try to get heroes that aren’t easily countered. Shyv, Udyr, and Mundo are probably the best at this: fast clear, and good 1v1.

Picking smart does limit your options. But it doesn’t mean that you cant ever play some champions. You just need to be sure that your team is going to be able to help you, or that the enemy jungle is going to be unable to
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
March 15 2012 00:57 GMT
#2
Isn't malphite's clear pretty fast if you have blue and are maxing E?
SnK-Arcbound
Profile Joined March 2005
United States4423 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 01:03:20
March 15 2012 01:02 GMT
#3
You ignore amumu's 10 flat reduced damage from his E. Jarvan get's free stats from his E, and a shield. Effectively you are only counting some shields and damage reduction and not others. Same with Riven. Heals also aren't considered equally.

Stealing enemy buffs only works if you can then prevent the enemy jungler from finding out and taking yours, otherwise you're now even, which means warding both sides of your corresponding buff, and not getting cv'd/warded/showing which buff you took.

Also amumu shits on both lee sin and shaco. Even more so in team fights, where they rely on their mobility that a <8 second stun and ult stops. He loses to champions that get free stuff with their autoattacks or things that don't lower his e's cooldown (like udyr or skarner).

I won't comment on opinion things, but there are many factual errors in your post.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
March 15 2012 01:04 GMT
#4
On March 15 2012 10:02 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
You ignore amumu's 10 flat reduced damage from his E. Jarvan get's free stats from his E, and a shield. Effectively you are only counting some shields and damage reduction and not others. Same with Riven. Heals also aren't considered equally.

Stealing enemy buffs only works if you can then prevent the enemy jungler from finding out and taking yours, otherwise you're now even, which means warding both sides of your corresponding buff, and not getting cv'd/warded/showing which buff you took.

Also amumu shits on both lee sin and shaco. Even more so in team fights, where they rely on their mobility that a <8 second stun and ult stops. He loses to champions that get free stuff with their autoattacks or things that don't lower his e's cooldown (like udyr or skarner).

I won't comment on opinion things, but there are many factual errors in your post.

From my experience lee sin and shaco can invade amumu's jungle at lvl 2 and straight up kill him np. Amumu's really easy to kill until he gets some items/levels under his belt.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 01:09:39
March 15 2012 01:07 GMT
#5
UUUGh. I knew I shouldnt have bothered to include that graph. Now no one is actually going to bother reading the damn article because they are too busy trying to debate shit Im not going to debate.

And SNK- I literally say that stealing a buff makes you even. Thats why you do it. If you know you are at high risk to get yours stolen, the worst thing that can happen to you if you get theirs is that you end up even. Best case is you get 2. If you dont steal it, then the worst case is you end up behind, best case is you end up even. Thats the trade off.

But kindly point out any factual errors there are. The only things I saw in your post were opinions.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Mondeezy
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1938 Posts
March 15 2012 01:46 GMT
#6
What a beast ass guide. I'll read the whole thing when I'm done with games for tonight, thanks!
LoL NA: Mondeezy - TL - Riven <3
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
March 15 2012 01:59 GMT
#7
Good guide. Well Posted. I want to hear more about matchups. Maybe add another column that says "When they pick X your best pick is Y"
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
57 Corvette
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada5941 Posts
March 15 2012 02:01 GMT
#8
I read most of it, and since I am low elo and suck at jungling its really helpful.

You lack of jungle kayle in your graph/list though.
Survival is winning, everything else is bullshit.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
March 15 2012 02:04 GMT
#9
And also jungle Yttrasil. I mean, jungle Rumble
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 02:08:03
March 15 2012 02:07 GMT
#10
You lack Veigar jungle. I'm sad jkjk :D Awesome 6k post. I might do something epic for my 3k post, maybe as well.
liftlift > tsm
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
March 15 2012 02:26 GMT
#11
On March 15 2012 10:59 Terranasaur wrote:
Good guide. Well Posted. I want to hear more about matchups. Maybe add another column that says "When they pick X your best pick is Y"

The problem with that is there really is no hard and fast rule, and a lot of the time if you play something off well you will counter the rule. For example, if I get a read steal as WW against Shyvana, and then manage to get my own red on top of that, I will have a significant advantage for quite a while, even though she should beat me.

In general though, if the enemy picks Shyv/WW/Udyr/Olaf and you dont want to have to worry about being slow, just grab one of those as well.

Power gets to be a bit awkward and much harder to actually pick against. Basically, if you think you are gonna get rushed on, the better option is simply to buy cloth 5 and last in that 1v1 situation till help arrives.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
papapanda
Profile Joined April 2010
Taiwan326 Posts
March 15 2012 02:26 GMT
#12
Great guide first of all!
Are there any hard counter (strategies or characters) to shyvanna, leesin, and nocturne? Shyvanna seems to be good at everything except ganks, while the other two are simply good at everything.
When would jungling with twitch(and other seemingly mediocre junglers) be justified when champs like shaco, nautilus, and even leona can do the job of ganking pretty much just as well but outshine twitch in other categories(as defined in your chart)?
I understand when there is a high level of mindgame in pro matches doing something against the meta can give the edge but what about in normal draft games?
I definitely learned a lot from the guide about the mindset of jungling and what to do in nonideal situations not talked about in anyother guide. Thanks.
SnK-Arcbound
Profile Joined March 2005
United States4423 Posts
March 15 2012 02:30 GMT
#13
On March 15 2012 10:04 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2012 10:02 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
You ignore amumu's 10 flat reduced damage from his E. Jarvan get's free stats from his E, and a shield. Effectively you are only counting some shields and damage reduction and not others. Same with Riven. Heals also aren't considered equally.

Stealing enemy buffs only works if you can then prevent the enemy jungler from finding out and taking yours, otherwise you're now even, which means warding both sides of your corresponding buff, and not getting cv'd/warded/showing which buff you took.

Also amumu shits on both lee sin and shaco. Even more so in team fights, where they rely on their mobility that a <8 second stun and ult stops. He loses to champions that get free stuff with their autoattacks or things that don't lower his e's cooldown (like udyr or skarner).

I won't comment on opinion things, but there are many factual errors in your post.

From my experience lee sin and shaco can invade amumu's jungle at lvl 2 and straight up kill him np. Amumu's really easy to kill until he gets some items/levels under his belt.

That depends. Amumu scales incredibly well, which makes him weak a lower levels, but not against someone like shaco who only has autos. Lee sin can invade on almost anyone. It depends on what starting you use. If you go regrowth pot expect to lose, but since it's shaco and lee sin you should go cloth 5, which gives you more than enough tankiness
On March 15 2012 10:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
UUUGh. I knew I shouldnt have bothered to include that graph. Now no one is actually going to bother reading the damn article because they are too busy trying to debate shit Im not going to debate.

And SNK- I literally say that stealing a buff makes you even. Thats why you do it. If you know you are at high risk to get yours stolen, the worst thing that can happen to you if you get theirs is that you end up even. Best case is you get 2. If you dont steal it, then the worst case is you end up behind, best case is you end up even. Thats the trade off.

But kindly point out any factual errors there are. The only things I saw in your post were opinions.

Let's quote your standard then
On March 15 2012 09:36 Two_DoWn wrote:
Getting +++ in late game tank requires having a skill that boosts your tankiness (anyone is tanky if they just get tank items). This also takes into account what you buy. Trynd, Riven, and J4 arent going atmogs.

This standard is objective, because all you do is measure if one of the 4 skills a champion has reduces damage. You aren't quantifying a difference in the tankiness of the stats gained, only checking if a champion has one. I'm assuming that + is for champions that wouldn't be expected to build any tanky items, ++ is for champions who do but have no free tank stats from skills, and +++ is for champions with them. Unless you can explain otherwise, you aren't applying your standard the same by all champions, which means you made up the standard to try and back up your claim, instead of letting it guide your placements.

Next you said that you shouldn't pick amumu against a shaco or lee sin. It's easily provable that amumu beats shaco, and it gets worse as both of them get higher in levels. Let's assume a lvl 2 fight. Not including any runes or masteries or items, Shaco has 609 hp, and does 45 auto damage (after armor and e), Q does 73 damage, W does at most 215 damage, E does 53.35 damage. Amumu has 640 hp, does 44 auto damage (after armor), W does 14.5 damage a second (after amumu's passive), E does 63 damage. Unless shaco has a nest set up or gets off every shot from a box (in which case he wins almost any jungle fight against anyone), he loses a fight in the jungle assuming equal hp and enough mana to spam what they want. Things only get worse because amumu's cooldowns get lower as he levels his skills, and his damage scales higher. To put it simply mathematically amumu shits on shaco.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 03:49:14
March 15 2012 03:19 GMT
#14
+++ requires the itemization and inherent tank. Otherwise the rank has no point. + is people who dont build tank. ++ is people who build tanky or people who dont build tank but get some sort of benifit (i.e. Riven). +++ is for people who build tank AND get a benefit.

And that is the LAST time I will bring up that chart. IT IS A FUCKING GUIDELINE. Dont get butthurt if your favorite champion doesnt have the rating you want. (@ everyone, not SnK)

As for Amumu vs Shaco. Shaco choses the fight. He will hit Amumu when he is doing red. Or wraiths or minigols. Amumu will not have full hp. In an actual game scenario, Shaco has every advantage. And most importantly, Shaco can get away if he wants. A 1v1 does not have to end in a kill. It just has to prevent you from being able to continue your jungle.

A good Shaco will make Amumu's day a living hell.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
March 15 2012 03:26 GMT
#15
On March 15 2012 11:26 papapanda wrote:
Great guide first of all!
Are there any hard counter (strategies or characters) to shyvanna, leesin, and nocturne? Shyvanna seems to be good at everything except ganks, while the other two are simply good at everything.
When would jungling with twitch(and other seemingly mediocre junglers) be justified when champs like shaco, nautilus, and even leona can do the job of ganking pretty much just as well but outshine twitch in other categories(as defined in your chart)?
I understand when there is a high level of mindgame in pro matches doing something against the meta can give the edge but what about in normal draft games?
I definitely learned a lot from the guide about the mindset of jungling and what to do in nonideal situations not talked about in anyother guide. Thanks.

Personally, I dont think there is really any counter to the speed of someone like Shyv. The only real way to deal with it is to have an extremely coordinated team, have speed of your own, or have an entire gameplan that revolves around having your stuff stolen.

Lee Sin suffers because if he doesnt convert kills on you or your laners, he will fall behind because he cannot farm as fast.

You can play whatever you like in normal games. The chart is by no means law. It does not take into account team play, how good you are at that champion and a myriad of other factors. If you have fun playing something, play it.

That being said, yes, a lot of jungles do outclass others. Its why we tend to see the same jungles over and over in tournament play. They work the best at that level.

At any level below that, however, just being really good at a champion is enough to win. Jungle twitch will carry games if you know what you are doing.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
March 15 2012 03:40 GMT
#16
I wasn't arguing about malphite. I'm genuinely curious because I was under the impression that with W+E malphite's clear is pretty fast.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 03:48:46
March 15 2012 03:47 GMT
#17
On March 15 2012 12:40 Ryuu314 wrote:
I wasn't arguing about malphite. I'm genuinely curious because I was under the impression that with W+E malphite's clear is pretty fast.

He slows considerably once his blue is gone, and with it from levels 2-3 he still doesnt clear all that fast because its not good for damaging big creeps. Its one of those things you really cant demonstrate well in a format like a chart. He was either a ++ or a + and I decided that because he was so slow without blue he was closer to +.

And SNK- Im not targeting you specifically. I just dont want to be arguing the chart for the next 3 weeks because it isnt the point of the thread.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
March 15 2012 04:01 GMT
#18
On March 15 2012 12:47 Two_DoWn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2012 12:40 Ryuu314 wrote:
I wasn't arguing about malphite. I'm genuinely curious because I was under the impression that with W+E malphite's clear is pretty fast.

He slows considerably once his blue is gone, and with it from levels 2-3 he still doesnt clear all that fast because its not good for damaging big creeps. Its one of those things you really cant demonstrate well in a format like a chart. He was either a ++ or a + and I decided that because he was so slow without blue he was closer to +.

And SNK- Im not targeting you specifically. I just dont want to be arguing the chart for the next 3 weeks because it isnt the point of the thread.



Well that's what you get for making a chart.

Let's talk warding. When do you buy wards. When do you place them and where? Do you ward enemy jungle?
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 04:15:10
March 15 2012 04:14 GMT
#19
On March 15 2012 12:47 Two_DoWn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2012 12:40 Ryuu314 wrote:
I wasn't arguing about malphite. I'm genuinely curious because I was under the impression that with W+E malphite's clear is pretty fast.

He slows considerably once his blue is gone, and with it from levels 2-3 he still doesnt clear all that fast because its not good for damaging big creeps. Its one of those things you really cant demonstrate well in a format like a chart. He was either a ++ or a + and I decided that because he was so slow without blue he was closer to +.

And SNK- Im not targeting you specifically. I just dont want to be arguing the chart for the next 3 weeks because it isnt the point of the thread.

I disagree, with philo stone + glacial shroud, malphite really doesn't run out of mana, his clears that become lagged from mana is the 4th-5th clear.
liftlift > tsm
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 04:22:11
March 15 2012 04:18 GMT
#20
On March 15 2012 13:01 Terranasaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2012 12:47 Two_DoWn wrote:
On March 15 2012 12:40 Ryuu314 wrote:
I wasn't arguing about malphite. I'm genuinely curious because I was under the impression that with W+E malphite's clear is pretty fast.

He slows considerably once his blue is gone, and with it from levels 2-3 he still doesnt clear all that fast because its not good for damaging big creeps. Its one of those things you really cant demonstrate well in a format like a chart. He was either a ++ or a + and I decided that because he was so slow without blue he was closer to +.

And SNK- Im not targeting you specifically. I just dont want to be arguing the chart for the next 3 weeks because it isnt the point of the thread.



Well that's what you get for making a chart.

Let's talk warding. When do you buy wards. When do you place them and where? Do you ward enemy jungle?

I hate buying wards and only do it if I am forced to. Wriggles is boss though.

[image loading]

Bringing up our little map again, pretending we are blue side:

Your bot lane should have red covered. Your top lane should have blue. A good mid will have both greens warded. A bad one will have 1. A terrible one will have none. Ideally, you should not have to ward because your lanes will do it to protect themselves, or at the very least you will have to donate a ward to one side of mid to get your teammate to buy a ward for the other one.

As for where to put wards: basically you want to put your ward where it will give you the most complete coverage. For example, if your bot has wards up and your top does not, then dropping a ward at your wraiths completely covers your bottom jungle, whereas a ward at their wraiths tells you very little by comparison. If you have complete coverage of one area, at the very least you know where the enemy team is not. If you have the option of which side to completely cover, I would go with red side simply because it has more camps and is bigger. Plus wolves are close to mid so you can escape ganks easily.

Warding the enemy jungle is really only good if you have control of your own jungle and want to take control of the enemy's. Its an aggressive maneuver. For example, if I know my team is bigger than the enemy one I will drop a ward at their red or blue in preparation for an invade. But if you are behind, its a very bad idea, because once they pass the ward they could be anywhere in your jungle. Even the top green ward is aggressive: if the enemy jungle passes that ward, you dont know if they are ganking mid or going for your blue/wolves. If you are being invaded, I would actually recommend pulling that ward back a ways just to get a better idea of where the enemy is going.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
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