EPTThe Non Ideal Jungle: Dealing with Counterjungling - Page 2
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On March 15 2012 10:02 SnK-Arcbound wrote: You ignore amumu's 10 flat reduced damage from his E. Jarvan get's free stats from his E, and a shield. Effectively you are only counting some shields and damage reduction and not others. Same with Riven. Heals also aren't considered equally. Stealing enemy buffs only works if you can then prevent the enemy jungler from finding out and taking yours, otherwise you're now even, which means warding both sides of your corresponding buff, and not getting cv'd/warded/showing which buff you took. Also amumu shits on both lee sin and shaco. Even more so in team fights, where they rely on their mobility that a <8 second stun and ult stops. He loses to champions that get free stuff with their autoattacks or things that don't lower his e's cooldown (like udyr or skarner). I won't comment on opinion things, but there are many factual errors in your post. Dude what are you talking about, Lee Sin can start small golems and catch amumu at blue lv 2 vs lv 1, risking a smite steal and/or first blood, and Shaco just completely stomps Amumu by catching him at wraiths every time. Both Lee Sin and Shaco have pretty much guaranteed escapes against Amumu, 400000x his mobility, and control dragon a million times better. Shaco and Lee Sin are both basically counterpicks to Amumu. If Amumu's ult wasn't the best CC in the entire game it wouldn't even be a contest. Amumu vs LS/Shaco is usually a game of "survive until the teamfight phase and pray they haven't snowballed", because there is no way in HELL Amumu is going to out-gank LS/Shaco or take a dragon against them. TwoDown actually wrote an amazing piece here and you're nitpicking minor things, and on top of that you're wrong about it... | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On March 15 2012 17:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: WHERE THE CHOGATH AT THO lol... I don't think you understand how difficult Cho is for the rest of us mere mortals. Even saint says he doesn't know how to Jangle Cho. :X | ||
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Zooper31
United States5710 Posts
On March 15 2012 11:30 SnK-Arcbound wrote: That depends. Amumu scales incredibly well, which makes him weak a lower levels, but not against someone like shaco who only has autos. Lee sin can invade on almost anyone. It depends on what starting you use. If you go regrowth pot expect to lose, but since it's shaco and lee sin you should go cloth 5, which gives you more than enough tankiness Let's quote your standard then This standard is objective, because all you do is measure if one of the 4 skills a champion has reduces damage. You aren't quantifying a difference in the tankiness of the stats gained, only checking if a champion has one. I'm assuming that + is for champions that wouldn't be expected to build any tanky items, ++ is for champions who do but have no free tank stats from skills, and +++ is for champions with them. Unless you can explain otherwise, you aren't applying your standard the same by all champions, which means you made up the standard to try and back up your claim, instead of letting it guide your placements. Next you said that you shouldn't pick amumu against a shaco or lee sin. It's easily provable that amumu beats shaco, and it gets worse as both of them get higher in levels. Let's assume a lvl 2 fight. Not including any runes or masteries or items, Shaco has 609 hp, and does 45 auto damage (after armor and e), Q does 73 damage, W does at most 215 damage, E does 53.35 damage. Amumu has 640 hp, does 44 auto damage (after armor), W does 14.5 damage a second (after amumu's passive), E does 63 damage. Unless shaco has a nest set up or gets off every shot from a box (in which case he wins almost any jungle fight against anyone), he loses a fight in the jungle assuming equal hp and enough mana to spam what they want. Things only get worse because amumu's cooldowns get lower as he levels his skills, and his damage scales higher. To put it simply mathematically amumu shits on shaco. I have never died to mumu ever as shaco. EVER. He's a joke champ for Shaco. If you're both lvl2 and fighting with no items or buffs then you're stupid and doing it wrong. At lvl2 when Shaco would normally attack Mumu they will both have blue buff or Shaco will have red and Mumu will have blue, at that point Mumu will lose the battle. How so? Attack Mumu doing a camp, start attacking immediately or Q into him, immediately drop box. He can either choose to start running out of box fear range and take several auto attacks without attacking back or he can choose to stay and fight and lose horrendously through box fear and the incoming shots. Camp bush with box, Mumu gets feared and you start attacking him, Q attack into him if you want and arn't scared about gettng 1v2'd in the enxt 6-8sec. At that point Mumu lost the fight when he got feared and took 2 auto attacks and several box shots before he's unfeared. Of course Mumu can still get away if hes near a tower and blows flash or his teammates have quick reactions but no way in hell does Shaco ever lose that fight. The choices for Shaco are free kill, forced Mumu flash, or make laners waste time to go on a wild goose hunt in their jungle. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On March 15 2012 17:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Dude what are you talking about, Lee Sin can start small golems and catch amumu at blue lv 2 vs lv 1, risking a smite steal and/or first blood, and Shaco just completely stomps Amumu by catching him at wraiths every time. Both Lee Sin and Shaco have pretty much guaranteed escapes against Amumu, 400000x his mobility, and control dragon a million times better. Shaco and Lee Sin are both basically counterpicks to Amumu. If Amumu's ult wasn't the best CC in the entire game it wouldn't even be a contest. Amumu vs LS/Shaco is usually a game of "survive until the teamfight phase and pray they haven't snowballed", because there is no way in HELL Amumu is going to out-gank LS/Shaco or take a dragon against them. TwoDown actually wrote an amazing piece here and you're nitpicking minor things, and on top of that you're wrong about it... Eh, you dont get lvl2 from minigolems anymore? So it'll be lvl1 lee vs lvl1 mumu. Or do you have time to take wraiths aswell or something? Been a while since I last jungled. Whenever I jungle against someone like a shaco I always tell my team to be ready to assist me in the jungle, works most of the time. | ||
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On Malphite: I don't really agree with your assessment of his stats. The fact that he only receives 3+ in tankiness kind of reflects this. And I very much disagree on the utility part. Not even talking about his R, which is huge (if they ever fix all the bugs), his Q and mainly his E offer a huuuge amount of utility. When you get guys who like to stack attack speed (hi there junglers with wit's end) his E just totally shreds their damage. He can 1v1 pretty well, and his Q is pretty spammable for chases (even though the slow kinda sucks at low levels). I tend to take into account the time that laners will take to cut off the counterjungler and this time will of course be extended by whatever CC you can throw at him. Which is why I totally dig Mao and Ali jungle. I don't really think it applies to solo queue since you can't trust anyone in solo queue, but in 5v5 it does make a difference. But all in all a very nice post that I will definitely take into account in my attempts at ELO gain. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On March 15 2012 13:46 wei2coolman wrote: People don't understand that jungle control comes from strong lane control, not from necessarily from the jungler, and the proceed to blame the jungler for weak jungle control. wtfffff? lanes helping counterjungling? the rule is to always blame the jungler. thats what i do. especially if its twodown. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Mao and Ali can be good in solo q (I have devistated solo q as Mao, for example). I personally feel that it is safest to pick them when the opposing team already has a slower jungle so you know that you are going to be able to do your thing without having to worry about your own jungle, espeicailly since showing yourself in lane opens you for counterjungle opportunites. Again: my biggest theory in lol is that you should never plan on letting your opponent do what he or she wants: you want to make them have to use their champions at less than their peak efficiency. Mao vs Shyv in solo q gives Shyv free reign to go around jacking whatever she wants. Mao vs Jax/gp/WW, on the other hand, abuses the fact that if the enemy ignores lanes and tries to farm, you will give every lane a huge advantage. So if they do what they want and farm constanly, they will be behind. If they try to gank, they wont be as effective as you OR doing what they want to do. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
My favorite thing to do when playing a weaker jungle is to jack the enemy red (or blue if they start at red) at level 1, with your entire team. Why? Because it works. Provided you can get your team to move together, it is low risk. And if you are able to pull it off, the worst that can happen to you from that point on in the initial jungle phase (i.e. before first back) is that you are going to be equal with the stronger jungle in terms of exp and gold. If I am WW and take an Udyr’s red, even if he gets my red after he does his blue, we are going to be even. And if he decides not to invade? Well, then I have 2 red buffs, am ahead of him, and on a fast track to level 6. I don't disagree with this being a good play, but I'd like to point out that I'd still consider WW to be behind in this situation. The reason being, that WW still splits his XP 5 ways with his teammates. All 5 players getting a tiny bit of red XP isn't going to make that much difference in lane, but Udyr being half a level to a level above Warwick will. It's definitely not hugely behind, but I wouldn't count that as even by any means. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On March 15 2012 23:15 TheYango wrote: Just a note: I don't disagree with this being a good play, but I'd like to point out that I'd still consider WW to be behind in this situation. The reason being, that WW still splits his XP 5 ways with his teammates. All 5 players getting a tiny bit of red XP isn't going to make that much difference in lane, but Udyr being half a level to a level above Warwick will. It's definitely not hugely behind, but I wouldn't count that as even by any means. You should have full exp. I cant think of a scenario where a lane is close enough to leech red exp on a steal. It certainly has never happened to me to this point. | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
Let's say my jungle is invaded at blue (even worse, we give up first blood there) but I escape at 10% health. Am I using my gold to buy a ward since or do I need to worry about regaining control on my next back? Sorry if noob question ^^ Yes 5v5 or 4v5 at blue (usually ambush in brush from my experience). Thanks! | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [My Gripes with the Chart] + Pantheon speed should be +, and ganks should be +++. The no AoE and mana chugging to keep spear chucking just don't make him practically fast at jungling at all, but from a gank perspective, he's insane, even pre 6, and post 6, he has a stronger version of Noct's gank. Jarman's late damage should be ++. I know it's a minor point, but I just think it's wrong to have his late damage listed in the same range as like, Malphite and Nautilus. His standard builld should be something like wriggle's, mallet, aegis, atma's, and that does decent damage. Malphite's stats are all fucked up cause you hate him, lol. His clear speed is ++, no doubt, not even blue dependent because E costs so little. 1v1 is at least a ++, any auto-attack based jungler can't realistcally hope to beat Malphite 1v1 through his E. I can accept the other snubbings there, but those 2 aspects are messed up to me, lol. Shen late game damage +++, are you kidding me? LOL, you have Jax at a fucking ++ ffs. Come on man, really? Especially from the jungle, Shen is not trucking people the same way that Yi, Noct, Trynd are. For Skarner and Udyr, I find the speeds to be slightly out of whack there. Phoenix Udyr just clears faster than Skarner, period, doesn't even depend on whether they get blue. To me, they actually both feel like they should just be +++ speed, but if they're not, Skarner's a little slower than Udyr, so he should be the first dropped there. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On March 16 2012 00:10 mordek wrote: Great writeup thanks for taking the time to do this. Let's say my jungle is invaded at blue (even worse, we give up first blood there) but I escape at 10% health. Am I using my gold to buy a ward since or do I need to worry about regaining control on my next back? Sorry if noob question ^^ I am assuming you are talking about a full 5v5 teamfight at your blue. In this case, the best option is to try to clear as best you can without blue buff. I really dont like trying to go steal the enemy's blue as a response because that is just asking to get killed there. So if we assume the situation is thusly: Someone on my team is dead, my blue (and probably wolves) are gone, I am sitting at fountain at ~2 minutes. The best play is to just create a new plan based around starting red. Buy an extra pot if you have gold, then do red, minigols, wriaths, check your wolves, and your blue. If you are lucky they will leave a creep up, which means that they have no idea when the blue respawns and you will be pretty safe to either take it or grab it the next back. I would not buy a ward because you still have control over your jungle, you are just a bit behind. Best thing to do is to try to farm as fast as you can in order to catch up. If they keep invading you because they smell blood, then I would get an early ward and try to at least lock off one side of your jungle with complete vision. | ||
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