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Hm. I found phage wasn't too bad still, I haven't yet tried Cutlass early though. Still running Smite/Exhaust and having a TON of success with the exhaust as a peeling tool in teamfights midgame.
I haven't tried Hybrid marks, but AD marks/quints give you a crazy fast clear. (Remember, W has a reasonable bonus AD ratio.)
Spirit of Ancient Golem is amazing on her (CDR was always rather strong) and I've just been building phage -> standard jungler (Aegis/Locket) after that.
Wit's is pretty good but I feel like I need to be really fed before I can fit it in. Perhaps on toplane Shyv.
Skill order is pretty clearly W>Q>E now though. With the autoproc damage always at 2%, even level 1 E contributes a lot of damage.
And she melts dragon, if only she had sustain! (So I guess I really should try out cutlass, huh.)
I'm thinking Cutlass + Ancient Golem -> another defense item [Aegis or something] -> BORK when I can finish it.
I also tried out zeke's on her, but we were also snowballing out of control that game, so it's hard to say if the zeke's was great or just good enough that it didn't ruin a snowballing game.
I tried doran start on her that game as well, but even with 4% lifesteal quints and doran's, I didn't feel healthy enough to do a lot after the initial sweep. Then I recalled and went top just as trundle was getting chased to 2nd turret and turned the fight around to get trundle doublebuffs and their jungler just became a nonfactor at that point.
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Been playing a little bit of shyvanna and she feels SO GOOD NOW.
The best thing is her E going through creeps it just feels so much better.
Also w/ creeps spawning faster and stuff she can farm SO fast. I was like 2 lvls ahead of a nautilus by like lvl 5 who was ganking to mild effect. End of the game I was 18 he was 13.
I do like wriggles a lot on her though. I like to secure dragon reaaally early. Buy a pink and pink it myself and then solo it or do it w/ support @ lvl5 or something. Shyvanna is so great for dragon control esp. when she has wriggles.
That said new wriggles shorter ward timer is annoying.
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I loved playing shyvanna in the jungle. She clears very fast and can easily 1v2 if you get ahead early game. Only problem is that her ganks are really weak with no CC. And I am really not good at relying on counterganking - does anyone have a video on this=?
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Uhhh no good video on it AFAIK.
Here's how I think of counterganking (but would appreciate someone better than I to comment in case I'm misinforming you.)
Your #1 priority is to farm. You should only counterjungle in the following situations
1) You see opponent jungler gank in a lane far away from jungle. You can now run into their jungle
2) Nearby lanes (esp. mid) are pushed. This means they can come help out if you encounter the enemy jungler.
3) You have good wards in the jungle. TBH you should probably carry 1-2 if you're planning on counterjungling, and put them down in spots so you have a little time to make your getaway if someone comes.
Some combo of 1-3 of these are usually for the best.
DONT counter jungle if
1) You could probably get more farm from your own jungle anyway
2) There is any risk of dying
Another thing to keep in mind:
You really need to think critically about where the jungle is right now. Say it's 2:55 and you just finished your 2nd buff. Guess what, the other jungler is probably only slightly behind you and is planning to gank somewhere. Evaluate your lanes: are any pushed and in a logical place for the opposing jungler to gank? You might wanna head over there and camp the lane brush. Maybe they will gank and you can countergank (Shyvanna is excellent in 2v2s thanks to tankiness and DPS output). If not, maybe you can wait for the lane to push back. But don't wait too long because you can't forget priority #1!!!
Lets say it's 7:00. Their blue buff is probably coming up. Great time to head into their jungle if your mid lane does not need blue buff immediately.
Wards in the opponent's jungle can be key for finding the jungler + figuring out which camp he is at or whether he is going b. Take advantage of every glimpse of the jungler you see, you might be able to catch them off gaurd w/ your midlaner!
Again, keep in mind that your 1st priority as Shyv is to get farmed because she scales poorly w/o items because she has not disables.
Side note: I like running ghost sometimes. Ghost + red buff makes shyv a solid ganker.
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I actually strongly disagree with "Don't counter jungle if you could get more farm from your own jungle anyway" Anything you take out of the enemy jungle is also taken away from them (unless they walk into your jungle at a mirror time) and thus has increas
Don't counterjungle a nonbuff while leaving your buffs up, but otherwise you are fair HUNTING the enemy jungler while clearing his camps as long as your laners have even a SLIGHT advantage over their opponents. You don't need your laners to help, you just need enemy laners to not be in good shape to help BETTER than your own laners laners.
Shyv doesn't need tons of farm, her base stats are amazing. She wants to bully the other jungler out of the game.
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United States1865 Posts
Shyvanna is a really abusive top laner in some matchups! She can basically pull a singed by shoving you to turret constantly, then proxying your waves, stealing your jungle, or roaming to mid lane.
Anyone without sustain or that has a mana dependency is generally going to have a rough time. Worth trying!
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Does burnout stack on itself? To be specific, I mean dragon form ground fire and normal form spin fire?
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It used to stack (the ground fire and the spin fire while in dragon form) but I don't think it does anymore. Sadness.
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whenever I used to play w/ a shyvanna toplane on my team for whatever reason she would always go like 3-0-0 laning phase and dominate her lane.
She is really good top and her all-in potential is pretty good w/ ghost, but if she falls behind she is screwed.
sylverfyre: counterjungling is risky buisiness in soloQ. Unless you feel very confident in your relative strength of yourself, your laners, and how pushed the lanes are, I would not even think about counterjungling. If you do feel confident with these concepts, I don't think you need me to explain to you how to counterjungle!
Otherwise, I think it's best to stick w/ your own jungle as shyvanna. The guidelines I gave were pretty much foolproof ways of getting into and out of there jungle while staying alive/ahead.
I disagree that shyv doesn't need tons of farm. Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't. It entirely depends on the status of the game.
For example: You are against a Mao who is ganking all the time but farming slowly and you are up 2 levels on him because he has been ganking and you have been farming. When a fight at dragon rolls or you are there when he ganks bot, you are going to CRUSH that teamfight with the extra CS and levels. Maybe Mao secures a kill or a few summoners but you are guaranteed to outfarm anyone in a straight up farm-off.
The way I play shyv is I try to be as efficient as possible when farming. If someone is blatantly overextended, yes, I will gank. But otherwise I just farm patiently, wait for the opponent jungler to gank, and go counterjungle + ward their jungle or gank myself. When you play shyvanna it's basically up to them to make mistakes because once you hit lvl 6 and you have a lantern and a pink ward, you only have to let jungle go top for you to secure dragon. They might snowball a lane but as shyv you're going to be snowballing the game.
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So i've been playing a lot of Shyvana lately since I got Ironscale skin which I think is sexy as hell. I started playing her in the jungle and though I love her clear times and overall power, I wasn't very successful there since she doesn't have the greatest ganks and really needs items to perform as an initiator in teamfights since she has no way to escape or avoid damage after dragon form.
I decided to try her out in top lane and I feel like she is actually very strong there right now. I use these runes and masteries :
3 Hybrid Penetration quintessences
6 Hybrid Penetration marks + 3 Attack Speed marks
9 Flat Armour seals
9 Flat Magic Resist glyphs (don't have scaling ones but i'd probably run those instead if I did)
9/21/0 Masteries
For items I will build Shyvana quite tanky. The only dps item I will get unless the game goes to 6 slots is BotRK because it synergizes nicely with her health shred with attack speed and the passive ability. Furthermore, the active on it is great for Shyvana to allow her to stick to her target more easily. In most games I will get a Randuins Omen and a Spirit Visage/Locket as well. I like Randuins in particular on her because she has such fantastic initiation and can hit multiple people with the active, which once again, allows you to stick on your targets better. If the game goes very long then I will pick up another tank item, Thornmail if appropriate or perhaps a Guardian Angel if there is not so much ad on the enemy team. For a 6th slot I generally like Wit's End for some more attack speed which is nice for Shyvana's cooldowns and health shred.
In lane I only have trouble with bruisers with a huge amount of sustain like Renekton or Yorick. You can trade well enough with these guys usually coming out on top, but without any sustain of your own you will end up losing in the long run. Ranged opponents like Jayce or Kennan can be irritating pre-6 but after that you should be too strong for them to hurt you much.
In teamfights I think Shyvana is a really fantastic initiator because she can corral people with her ultimate and group them up. She is incredibly tanky with top lane farm and because of her high base stats and abilities does a huge amount of aoe damage. Because of that she works very well in an aoe comp, and with champions like Orianna and Lulu who can shockwave people into your aoe or Wild Growth you to knock-up/slow them.
In short, I think Shyvana is much better in the top lane then the jungle because I think she requires farm to properly initiate in teamfights without melting instantly. This is her best quality and she can't utilize it on a junglers budget.
What do other people think about Shyvana in the top lane?
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So after having a blast with Shyvana in the jungle her build was fairly obvious. The standard Golem + Locket is practically designed for her. The problem is when top lane, or when I feel I need a damage item on her I'm still confused as to what to get. Riot apparently recommends Hydra but I'm not really sold, Feels like you want attack speed and Wits End is pretty weak right now so that leaves Triforce or Blade of the Ruined King.
So what damage item does everyone else usually get? for top lane I usually go like Sunfire + Belt + damage item then finish warmogs/randuins/mallet depending. Or is it just a flat AD item like Hydra to help your burnout?
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I think BotRK is fantastic on her. It grants attack speed like wit's end and does health shred which complements her E for around 7% hp per aa total. The active helps her stick to targets as well. Hydra is redundant on her because burnout already clears minions so quick.
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I built Zephyr once because I had to buy early armor booties. It worked well.
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I've played against Shyvana top a few times, and I've felt it was pretty obnoxious. Jungler didn't ever try to gank her, so she just shoved all day long and then stole their wraiths and golems, leading to a massive level disparity pretty quickly. I feel like her E helps her shred some of the tanky tops you usually see (Renekton, probably Shen).
I should probably start experimenting with her more top lane. My one concern is the jungler/mid need more cc to compensate for her lack of it.
I actually really like Hydra on her, although this is mostly from ARAM experience, so I'm not really sure if that would transfer to SR. I usually run attack speed marks when I do that, and get a brutalizer. Hydra active+twin bite+ lots of flat AD + flat armor pen=squishy that dies really fast. I suspect having two offensive items on SR wouldn't be optimal though.
For burst, I suspect Hydra beats out BotRK and Triforce though, at the cost of stickiness. I think you can probably rely on Randuin's and/or Frozen Mallet for that though. I'll do some math on this later (if I remember :>).
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On October 15 2013 08:38 zer0das wrote:
I've played against Shyvana top a few times, and I've felt it was pretty obnoxious. Jungler didn't ever try to gank her, so she just shoved all day long and then stole their wraiths and golems, leading to a massive level disparity pretty quickly. I feel like her E helps her shred some of the tanky tops you usually see (Renekton, probably Shen).
I should probably start experimenting with her more top lane. My one concern is the jungler/mid need more cc to compensate for her lack of it.
I actually really like Hydra on her, although this is mostly from ARAM experience, so I'm not really sure if that would transfer to SR. I usually run attack speed marks when I do that, and get a brutalizer. Hydra active+twin bite+ lots of flat AD + flat armor pen=squishy that dies really fast. I suspect having two offensive items on SR wouldn't be optimal though.
For burst, I suspect Hydra beats out BotRK and Triforce though, at the cost of stickiness. I think you can probably rely on Randuin's and/or Frozen Mallet for that though. I'll do some math on this later (if I remember :>).
In the pro/am games I've been seeing, Shyvana will grab a quick cutlass in lane phase before going tanky and use the active to aid ganks. From there it's Sunfire/SV trololololol all day. Frozen Mallet is aweful.
Hydra would be pretty amusing if DragQ still triggered AOE on all targets like Tiamat did in S2.
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1 of my main champ together with renek and shen. I really love shyv as top or jungler.
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I used to get Hydra on her, but not I feel like BOTRK is way better as the sole dmg item.
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for top lane is 9/21 setup best or should I be going 21/9
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I haven't played it myself, but from watching top streamers get demolished by Shyvana, most seemed to go unkillable+some damage. I guess that's Defense heavy masteries?
Only one heavy hitting Shyvana seen, but OTOH it snowballed ridoncilously.
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On October 15 2013 04:32 Pantagruel wrote:
I think BotRK is fantastic on her. It grants attack speed like wit's end and does health shred which complements her E for around 7% hp per aa total. The active helps her stick to targets as well. Hydra is redundant on her because burnout already clears minions so quick.
BotRK feels much better than Hydra on her, the AS and % damage together with E and W makes you kill shit so fast
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EPT
