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On March 16 2012 08:08 arnath wrote:
I don't really see why you would get Wit's over finishing Frozen Mallet first. She doesn't really need attackspeed or MR and the constant slow from Mallet makes her way better at killing people.
She needs both actually. Wits is a much bigger dps increase than mallet is, and you will need the mr since wits is realistically your only mr buy till late late game.
And as is actually really good on her. It resets your burst (q) and lets you cleave tanks, not just squishies. Remember, her E does bonus damage the more you hit someone. More as=more bonus damage.
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Is there anyone who can beat her in jungle? In terms of clear speed and 1v1 fights? My friend was jungling today as Warwick. Not only did he get his jungle raped, but she got such an advantage she went top and babysat her Kennen so I couldn't do jack. Tips?
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I think I heard that mundo is a hair faster, and there was a debate either here or in a GC about Trundle being able to 1v1 her.
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On March 16 2012 12:50 Mondeezy wrote:
Is there anyone who can beat her in jungle? In terms of clear speed and 1v1 fights? My friend was jungling today as Warwick. Not only did he get his jungle raped, but she got such an advantage she went top and babysat her Kennen so I couldn't do jack. Tips?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320839
That should help with the raping.
As for beating her? No. Udyr is as fast and as powerful as she is and mundo is slightly faster, but not enough to actually punish her.
The best way to counter her is to just pick someone fast and keep your own jungle cleared. If she trys to counter you and your shit is down, then you come out ahead.
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On March 16 2012 12:50 Mondeezy wrote:
Is there anyone who can beat her in jungle? In terms of clear speed and 1v1 fights? My friend was jungling today as Warwick. Not only did he get his jungle raped, but she got such an advantage she went top and babysat her Kennen so I couldn't do jack. Tips?
Nocturne vs Shy pretty skill based. If Nocturne can spell-shield Shyvana's E then it pretty one sided fight in favor of Noct. If you take Exhaust on Noct Shy can't really counter jungle you early because before E Noct wrecks her, and when Shy has E, a smart Nocturne has W.
Noct also has about same speed as Shy come late game, but Shyv faster early game. If you paying attention it not big enough of a difference to get super behind if you able to track her down imo. Lee Sin also kills Shy 1v1 if you can avoid Shyvana's W with smart Q tactics.
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thoughts on mspd quints? also what masteries? for jungle
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question: i think it is given to max out W first in jungle, but was just wondering if lvl-ing Q first over E is a good idea.
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On April 13 2012 20:10 Shizuru~ wrote:
question: i think it is given to max out W first in jungle, but was just wondering if lvl-ing Q first over E is a good idea.
Nah, Q doesn't scale well. E does more damage if you max it first.
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So, i have been jungling with Shyvana a lot, and i feel like i am doing something horribly wrong. Her ganks feel completely anemic to me. Basically the only thing i can do is run at people, then they run away, and thats it. Even if i reach them, if they have flash or a single dash, they take 0 damage from me.
And i think that around my level (1300-ish), the jungler has to have some ganks to be viable. Without good ganks, you can not do anything to help that person that is losing his lane. And i have to compare shyvana with mundo, who is pretty similar to her, but has a ranged slow, and the ganks just don't compare at all. If you hit someone who is overextended in the slightest with a cleaver, which is not that hard to do, they are dead more often then not. If i am Shyvana in a similar situation, they can just run away. I like the shyvana gameplay, and her lategame is pretty fun too, just if i am reliant on my lanes to be ok completely without me i don't think i have that much impact on the game.
What am i doing wrong?
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On April 30 2012 19:58 Simberto wrote:
So, i have been jungling with Shyvana a lot, and i feel like i am doing something horribly wrong. Her ganks feel completely anemic to me. Basically the only thing i can do is run at people, then they run away, and thats it. Even if i reach them, if they have flash or a single dash, they take 0 damage from me.
And i think that around my level (1300-ish), the jungler has to have some ganks to be viable. Without good ganks, you can not do anything to help that person that is losing his lane. And i have to compare shyvana with mundo, who is pretty similar to her, but has a ranged slow, and the ganks just don't compare at all. If you hit someone who is overextended in the slightest with a cleaver, which is not that hard to do, they are dead more often then not. If i am Shyvana in a similar situation, they can just run away. I like the shyvana gameplay, and her lategame is pretty fun too, just if i am reliant on my lanes to be ok completely without me i don't think i have that much impact on the game.
What am i doing wrong?
A) Run exhaust.
B) Positioning is stupidly important. You need to get yourself in a position where they have to go through you to get to safety, ideally with you being inbetween them and their tower. This means instead of going from river you need to come from wraiths/blue mid, or tribrush top/bot.
C) Other option is the lane brush gank. Since you can't just run at people from river, you can get into the lane brushes without your opponents seeing your by making your laners push the lane to tower. Meanwhile you sneak from your tower into the far up lane brush without being seen. When your opponent pushes the lane back into a more neutral position, do the killing.
D) Get a Phage.
That being said, Shy's ganks are pretty bad if they aren't relatively vulnerable already. You guarantee'd a kill if you can get to them, but getting to them can be problematic. Other thing is that you clear so damn fast you don't have to gank efficiently, just gank whenever your jungle is clear... which should be like all the firggen time. Any time you wander into the lane, they zoned.... you zone them enough your lane gets ahead anyway. If they run away and you chunked them, suddenyl your laner has an advantage. You don't have to kill things to get advantages, and good players can easily turn marginal advantages into lane wins, into game wins.
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Well, yes, but i am no good player, and i am not playing with good players. If they get a bit ahead, they just push the lane to the limit, don't ward, and get ganked by a more efficient ganker because they overextended. I have watched that happen often enough that the only thing i value in a gank is a kill.
All the other things i am already doing, but when i do the same thing with any other jungler, it just works much better. I basically took shyvana as an alternative to mundo when i can't pick him, and so far i can't see any situation where mundo is not just hands down BETTER. He has a similar clearspeed, maybe even faster, is a good duellant himself, has a speedbuff too, and he has a ranged slow to top that all off.
I think that it might just be that at my level, a pure farmy jungler is not that viable because the percentage of ganks that are successful is that much higher that you need to have at least acceptable ganks.
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I find it interesting that your having some trouble, you specifically talk about your elo range and how you may think it varies. I can say from first hand experience, Shy works well in the range your at (I played Shy as a jungler almost exclusively to take myself from 1100-1300 elo, with a win rate of ~75%) I believe she's still my most played champ in ranked, despite having spent a lot of time working on other roles.
Anyway, Shy's strength I feel is her mobility. Being in the right place at the right time pays off. Make use of your awesome farming abilities to farm your jungle, their jungle, and any lane farm thats going to waste. Your ganks dont necessarily have to generate kills like you might expect from other junglers. Run into a lane, pop w, move at them, if you dont do any dmg, leave, no harm done. If you get to them, cool, they flash and get away. Move on, farm more. But the continual presence and pressure creates situations where, you might have someone who actually has no escapes left and has slightly lower HP than normal, or you catch someone out when they make a slightly riskier than normal play.
Force jungle fights, farm farm farm, and dont think of mundo like shy, because shy's ganks will never be anywhere near that. She has other strengths, play to those, instead of trying to turn a weakness into a strength.
On a final side note, one of my most favourite routes is going wolves -> blue (strong leash) -> enemy wraiths -> enemy golems -> gank top (Can work on bot too if your on the other side of the map, more risky). Incredibly fast leveling route that puts you in a position coming down on the enemy lane. If you dont get a kill, you'll probably get some serious dmg down and get a pretty nice lead for your lane. I play a boots + 3 pots doing that route to make sure you stay ahead of the enemy jungler, and be careful doing it against faster junglers or those with non conventional routes.
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Shyvana and Mundo are similar, but not quite the same. Shyvana is significantly stronger in 1v1 scenarios, and as you'd expect from a champion with no CC she kills pretty much anyone that is willing to fight her. Mundo has a stronger gank, but Mundo does not have anywhere near the same presence as Shy does in the early mid game.
And I disagree, farmy junglers can be a huge presence in lower ELO games. Perhaps instead of having a huge presence by ganking you can do that by forcing fights because you are counter ganking,prowling in their jungle stealing things, or just flat out putting pressure on an objective like and early tower/dragon. You said you have promblems with your lanes getting ganked? Think ahead that the other jungler may want to gank the lane, ward for them, and be there when their jungler is there. Shyvana kills just about anyone who is willing to fight her, and for whatever reason people are always willing to fight 2v2 situations.
Your laners might give you grief for it, but dont feel bad about taking a back lane and hard pushing it to the tower and doing some big tower damage. So long as you dont start and leave it pushed (aka, the minions will be just out of tower range when your laner gets back) there is no foul done and taking an early tower can really snowball the game quickly. It means your lane can do pressure other lanes and so can you. Especially at that Elo if you can get your team thinking in "lategame!" before their team you can get some pretty big advantages.m You'll hear lots of people complain that they wanted to keep farming champions or whatever, but remember that the main goal is to kill nexuses, and killing towers gets you closer to that goal while giving you a nice marginal advantage in the interim.
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After playing a few more games with her, she is indeed not as weak as i thought. Turns out that the first few games i had all my lanes were just losing simultaneously in a devastating fashion (and of course blaming me, sadly i was stupid enough to take some of that serious). You can get kind of efficient ganks if you somehow manage to get to them in the first 1-2 seconds of your w, and thus can continue to refresh it by punching them, getting enough time to do some damage.
I still think that as a complete champion, she is weaker then mundo because of her weaker earlygame due to not having any ccs to actually kill people you win against. To be honest, i don't see how Shyvana is stronger in any 1v1 scenario, given that basically everyone can just walk away from her when they start losing, while if they try that stuff with mundo, they get a cleaver in the back and die. In the teamfight stage, however, i find her to be more useful due to her having lots of AoE, and a more reliable engage with dragon form.
Also, i try to avoid doing stuff that enrages my laners, not because i feel bad when they shout at me, but because they become bad while shouting at me. And usually if i give someone a single reason to start raging, they will continue to do so for the rest of the game, and play horribly bad because they are busy typing instead of playing. It is hard enough to keep the random rage in check if they are angry at someone else, it is completely impossible if they are angry at you.
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Just want to correct a few misleading statements on this page
W > q > e, with a point in e at 4. e is a 1 point wonder because it's armor reduction doesn't increase and it's a pretty slow skillshot. leveling q will create a much higher damage output as it scales better and has a lower cooldown
Mundo will beat shyv every time in a 1v1, don't try that fight. Shyv is just a lot safer because of her bailout ult.
Shyv ganks are about angles. With flat AD reds and quints, coming from even slightly behind the enemy laner is a GAURANTEED kill at level 2 because of the speed boost from w, the slow (and triple application) of red, and the humongous nuke that comes from 3 instant auto attacks with 80 ad. I take flash so I can flash after than if they flash, exhaust is also acceptable
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On May 01 2012 03:52 deskscaress wrote:
Just want to correct a few misleading statements on this page
W > q > e, with a point in e at 4. e is a 1 point wonder because it's armor reduction doesn't increase and it's a pretty slow skillshot. leveling q will create a much higher damage output as it scales better and has a lower cooldown
Mundo will beat shyv every time in a 1v1, don't try that fight. Shyv is just a lot safer because of her bailout ult.
Shyv ganks are about angles. With flat AD reds and quints, coming from even slightly behind the enemy laner is a GAURANTEED kill at level 2 because of the speed boost from w, the slow (and triple application) of red, and the humongous nuke that comes from 3 instant auto attacks with 80 ad. I take flash so I can flash after than if they flash, exhaust is also acceptable
No, W>E>Q is correct. Q scales with your bonus damage, not level. You take E because it scales with levels.
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On May 01 2012 03:54 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 03:52 deskscaress wrote:
Just want to correct a few misleading statements on this page
W > q > e, with a point in e at 4. e is a 1 point wonder because it's armor reduction doesn't increase and it's a pretty slow skillshot. leveling q will create a much higher damage output as it scales better and has a lower cooldown
Mundo will beat shyv every time in a 1v1, don't try that fight. Shyv is just a lot safer because of her bailout ult.
Shyv ganks are about angles. With flat AD reds and quints, coming from even slightly behind the enemy laner is a GAURANTEED kill at level 2 because of the speed boost from w, the slow (and triple application) of red, and the humongous nuke that comes from 3 instant auto attacks with 80 ad. I take flash so I can flash after than if they flash, exhaust is also acceptable No, W>E>Q is correct. Q scales with your bonus damage, not level. You take E because it scales with levels.
Errr ... No. Iirc e is a magic damage nuke that scales off ap... You will have neither ap nor magic pen on shyv and your armor reduction is a flat 15% at all levels on e. Q will apply your massive bonus ad from runes, Wriggles, and Phage. You should also have 10% arpen from masteries and the damage from q does increase with levels...
You should always have enough bonus damage to make q worth it if you follow a standard shyv build
User was banned for this post.
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You cant match 80-260 with 20% ad scaling. E max second is gonna do more damage.
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E gives so much more burst damage than Q it's not even a very fair comparison. Having slightly more armor pen than magic pen doesn't mean squat when maxing one skill gives 70 extra burst damage and another gives like an extra 250.
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I'm willing to bet you guys are wrong but I'll give e max a try and report back
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EPT
