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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On the other hand if you level Q you reduce the CD a good deal, since both the second hit of Q and subsequent auto attacks reduce the CD. If you're auto attacking a dummy or (in realistic terms) just need that reduced CD to get a second Q off leveling Q is far better mathematically. Personally IDK which is better. I like Q but everyone and their mother with any authority gets E instead. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On May 01 2012 06:08 phyvo wrote: He is correct in saying E scales with levels. That is, you skill it and it gives you higher burst damage than leveling Q, since the damage goes up significantly while with Q all you get is which gives you 5% of your AD on the second hit. On the other hand if you level Q you reduce the CD a good deal, since both the second hit of Q and subsequent auto attacks reduce the CD. If you're auto attacking a dummy or (in realistic terms) just need that reduced CD to get a second Q off leveling Q is far better mathematically. Personally IDK which is better. I like Q but everyone and their mother with any authority gets E instead. Dont overlook the fact that e becomes an AOE nuke in dragon form, and that E has reduced CD on leveling too. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11432 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 01 2012 06:14 phyvo wrote: I didn't. E just can't compete with extra auto attacks for free on a skill that gets flat CDR procced by autos in terms of DPS, unless you're hitting 3 or more targets each time. Technically Q also is AoE in drag form too though the odds of using that AoE more than once are pretty slim. This kind of thing is impossible to theorycraft which is why I say I don't know rather than waving math at everyone's faces. The thing is, Flame Breath makes all your autoattacks that hits debuffed targets deal 15% of the ability's damage as extra magic damage. So assuming you actually hit your E, you will do more damage with it than maxing Q since it effectively buffs all your autos as well, not to mention the resists reduction. | ||
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deskscaress
United States399 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:24 Ryuu314 wrote: The thing is, Flame Breath makes all your autoattacks that hits debuffed targets deal 15% of the ability's damage as extra magic damage. So assuming you actually hit your E, you will do more damage with it than maxing Q since it effectively buffs all your autos as well, not to mention the resists reduction. Dafaq Since when foes armor reduction make attacks do additional magic damage? | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
As I said the actual practical result in game might be different but don't go telling me that Q first is worse against a target dummy, because it isn't. On May 01 2012 08:29 deskscaress wrote: Since when foes armor reduction make attacks do additional magic damage? E does additional magic damage when you hit foes that have the debuff. It's just part of the ability. | ||
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deskscaress
United States399 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
- Upfront damage way higher on E than Q. Q catches up after you use it a second time, but it doesn't even catch up that much unless you have more AD than is expected. - The CD for E and Q matches up a lot better if you max E first. On May 01 2012 08:40 deskscaress wrote: Wow I am an IDIOT. Never realized that e had an additional magic damage buff too. So with a hit e, you do +15% physical from the reduced armor and +15% bonus magical? Holy shit that's so good. Okay, definitely ready to try an e-max build, you have me convinced. I do bet that q is s better I. The jungle but there's probably a good balance After you hit E, your auto + Q combo applies E three times, which adds up to 117 damage just from E procs alone within the span of 1 second. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On May 01 2012 06:07 deskscaress wrote: I'm willing to bet you guys are wrong but I'll give e max a try and report back On May 01 2012 08:40 deskscaress wrote: Wow I am an IDIOT. Never realized that e had an additional magic damage buff too. So with a hit e, you do +15% physical from the reduced armor and +15% bonus magical? Holy shit that's so good. Okay, definitely ready to try an e-max build, you have me convinced. I do bet that q is a bit better In The jungle but there's probably a good balance The irony... reading is a good talent toi have At least you can admit when you're wrong. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
If I ever play Shyv again I'll try it out both ways and try not to miss E. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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D u o
Canada381 Posts
I've done a few different things. My main start has been boot 3 pot, but I just read that doing armor 5 pot is probably better [though doubtful] because you gain more sustain and can do fairly easy exhaust ganks on mid because you'll have more sustain. Also from that point I'm not 100% sure where to go and why, I enjoy the idea of heavy counter jungle so I love my boot start and doing a level 4 gank on mid or top and trying to snowball top or mid enough that I don't have to do anything except camp bot the rest of the game. But to do so I have to go oracle and at that point I feel i'm too squishy to be much of a threat. So I usually go for wriggles then aegis but a lot of guides say to go for a gp5 after wriggles. Is this before second boot or after? If i grab mobility boots for laning phase then I mind aswell just get an oracles. I'm just lost on what to build and why. I main support so I only buy oracles if i'm behind on my lane and NEED ganks. Secondly, who do I go for in teamfights. Do i want to debuff as many people as possible? I've snowballed as shyv and just done whatever I wanted but any time i'm not snowballed or ahead in any way I feel completely lost. The last game we played I was vsing nunu so i was farmed less than I usually was and their adc was able to put 1/10 damage chunks on me while I had aegis and wardens mail with the gp5 and ninja tabi. I just feel lost the 10% of the games i'm not ahead. | ||
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Wetty
Australia419 Posts
AS reds(flat) /armour yellows (flat)/MR blues (either, although scaling favourable)/movement speed quints 2 doran's blades -> boots 2 -> aegis -> phage -> wits -> mallet -> randuins exhaust/smite defensive masteries team fights: You dont really have any peeling power, so the idea is to dive carries, stick to them and make it so that their team needs to peel you/kill you first. If you're appropriately tanky, the carry wont be able to kill you quickly, but also wont be able to ignore you. Make sure you don't go in too far without your team, you can use your ult to peel, and frozen mallet to peel for your carries if you don't have the liberty of diving stuff. Having a single generic build isn't the best, but if you're going to have one, something like above is pretty good. Early dorans give you pretty beast dmg and survivability early on, allowing for some strong early plays. Aegis early on gives you a moderate damage increase, and a large improvement to your survivability, but also a big increase to team survivability. If you get it early, you'll also be bringing that aura to the majority of early fights, where there are still 2v2/3v3 skirmishes going on, and your support may not have aegis/be present with that aegis. As such, its a pretty big boon. From here you basically want to build tanky, because shy's dmg doesnt scale that well. At this point in the game, I like to grab a phage, the slow is really good. From there, you can carry on like above, but you also have options. Finish frozen mallet faster if you need the peeling or slow for diving, branch out to triforce if you're doing very well and can see that you will have the income to finish it. Wits end against a team with more magic dmg, or if you feel you want more dmg, but cant afford tri. At the point where you have aegis, depending on how things are going, it might be worth carrying oracles for your team in the mid game to help clear wards. If you're dying a lot, or don't feel tanky enough to deal with the extra threat of holding oracles, don't waste the gold, but its something that is again good to have, as you'll be the one moving around the map the most. Early game, wards and potions are something thats good to always carry as you move towards finishing that aegis. Heart of gold is something that I dont build with Shy, because basically you'd be building it in place of those 2 doran's. You can get it as well as, if you're doing well, but it doesnt offer particularly large amounts of health, and whilst the income is nice, its better to improve your fighting strength early on as that is Shy's strength - early/mid game fights. You want to be as strong as possible in that 15-25 minute time frame, and HoG doesnt serve that purpose. That item slot is much better filled with the Warden's Mail as you build towards randuins, than having a HoG waiting for the gold to finish randuins. (Warden's Mail is a very good item for its price, its something that you can build early if the enemy has numerous AD threats that are doing well. Straight after aegis or phage can work a treat against them) | ||
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D u o
Canada381 Posts
Thanks for replying I didn't really think of going for dorans even though I usually do that if i'm snowballing a leesin. @__@ | ||
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Wetty
Australia419 Posts
I was definitely an advocate for wriggles when I first started playing Shy - it makes her jungle somewhat safer - you can run to a camp and get significant health return rather than just staying level or making a small gain like you would with dorans. It comes down to play style, I've outlined how I currently like to play her. If you intend to spend the vast majority of your time making risky plays in the enemy jungle, wriggles is good. Along with more wards and health potions. I would personally stick to dorans - and take a few extra wards. Enter the enemy jungle, ward strategic spots and then hang nearby - and tackle them as they fight a camp, or when they are lower than you, rather than just blindly counter jungling. You wouldnt need a wriggles for this type of play. If you're trying to rush camps out from under them when you know they're somewhere else, a wriggles will help you do it faster. But if its THAT close, then maybe you shouldn't be trying to rush that camp anyway, seeing as there's a chance that you'll get no wriggles procs, and get caught with your pants down. Wriggles does make sneaking a dragon possible if they don't have it warded - but this presents other risks in of itself. Slot efficency is the final thing to consider - wriggles definitely has that over dorans blades, especially if you're building up to an aegis, which can fill a bunch of slots as well... add in boots, and the need to carry wards, and wriggles suddenly becomes an attractive option given that it has a ward, and takes one less slot than 2 dorans. The early game build up is not as strong imo though. dorans blade >> vamp + potion in terms of fighting another champion early on. So, depending on how early you want to be fighting in the enemy jungle, well, wriggles could restrict that timing, especially if you fall behind. Always trade-offs, wriggles is a great item, shy uses it well with her Q for extra chance at procs, and that you might want to be building AS for even more synergy. Hopefully that's somewhat helpful to you  | ||
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D u o
Canada381 Posts
Which is the more solid or more "proper" way to play. Which will allow me to consistently get wins regardless of how well my teamates are while still doing my job in the jungle. I've pretty much got down on when to ward camp bot to tax them before my oracles is up mainly because I play support and I know when they have to ward. There is a lot of questions that I don't know because generally I can't do my job properly, either i get oracle early and am too scared to gank or i get it too late and the laning phase is already passed. Too many lanes snowball heavily if I don't gank, but I feel I want to play a counter gank style so I can counter jungle heavily and force ganks and then be there when the gank happens to give a bonus to my lane however I feel lanes lose too early for this style to work and shyvana ganks pre 6 seem kind of trash if i dont have exhaust up. Thus I've been going wriggles into aegis 80% of my games but I feel its a bit too late. I'm not sure how I would be able to slow down laning phase or prevent people from wanting to teamfight if they just take the first tower as early as possible. Double dorans seems quicker because the gold cost but the ward cost and speed seems like it would tax me more. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
Phage hexdrinker aegis and starks or whatever its called now. Skip dblades get an early vamp if your worried but shyvana sustained dps is pretty beast and phage is a necessity. I used yto go wits before the nerf now I like hex and new starks. Having brain fart on name lol. Ive also gone gunblade with bilgewater first into aegis and it actually felt really strong would have to test more | ||
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D u o
Canada381 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:35 Bladeorade wrote: Wriggles poopy imo. Phage hexdrinker aegis and starks or whatever its called now. Skip dblades get an early vamp if your worried but shyvana sustained dps is pretty beast and phage is a necessity. I used yto go wits before the nerf now I like hex and new starks. Having brain fart on name lol. Ive also gone gunblade with bilgewater first into aegis and it actually felt really strong would have to test more Do jungle without sustain? | ||
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