EPT[Champion] Shyvana - Page 9
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Terranasaur
United States2085 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On February 28 2012 05:29 Caphe wrote: Is AS runes a must on a jungle shyvanna? I always feel my jungle clear is quite slow since I run flat MS and armor plus AP quints and reds. AP quints and reds? Why? o.o Gotta abuse the mediocre AP scaling on the single target skillshot with a huge CD? The mediocre AP scaling on the Ulti? I don't understand the logic behind that. At all. I don't really understand move speed runes on her either, W is +50% movespeed. You already faster than erryone else without em. I think AS runes optimal, but a standard jungle runepage (AD+flat armor+scaling MR) works well also. Thing is that she gets great use out of AS becuase if she killing sometjhing in jungle in five hits in the same time period of three hits with AS runes compared to AD/ArP runes she lowering her CD's more. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 28 2012 05:29 Caphe wrote: Is AS runes a must on a jungle shyvanna? I always feel my jungle clear is quite slow since I run flat MS and armor plus AP quints and reds. That rune setup is pretty bad. There are 2 general schools for Shyv runes: the Diamondz and SV. Diamondz runs Ad/armor/attack speed/(armpen or ad quints, cant remember which). SV runes As/armor/mrlvl/Armpen. Diamondz is slightly stronger in 1v1, but slightly less tanky and slightly slower. SV is fast, tanky, but not QUITE as strong in a 1v1 situation. But ya, dont run ap. Its basically worthless on her. MS quints can be good, but she doesnt really need it since she starts boots and has her w. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
You wouldn't run armouorpen it's just stupid. Jungle mobs barely have armour, you have lots of magic damage anyway. Even when they do have armour it's usually worse than AD early game considering how much magic damage you have. AS I can see but I imagine AD hurts a lot harder in ganks with W and Q damage way higher. and you hit+q combo being fairly unaffected by attack speed. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:51 Slayer91 wrote: I thought you go AD on shyvana because it scales with her Q and W? You wouldn't run armouorpen it's just stupid. Jungle mobs barely have armour, you have lots of magic damage anyway. Even when they do have armour it's usually worse than AD early game considering how much magic damage you have. The vast majority of your damage to big creeps is going to come from auto attacks. Hence why running armor pen does make some sense. But either way, its the runepage SV used to use and perhaps still does. Havent seen him shyv in a while. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:56 Two_DoWn wrote: The vast majority of your damage to big creeps is going to come from auto attacks. Hence why running armor pen does make some sense. But either way, its the runepage SV used to use and perhaps still does. Havent seen him shyv in a while. How much does armour pen really increase your damage in jungle? Assume that you have E on the jungle mobs, and your W AD scaling? I don't think it's that high, at least not to justify a full 21 armour pen, with 21 offense and 15 armorpen. Maybe a bit of armourpen might be efficient. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On February 28 2012 05:44 iCanada wrote: AP quints and reds? Why? o.o Gotta abuse the mediocre AP scaling on the single target skillshot with a huge CD? The mediocre AP scaling on the Ulti? I don't understand the logic behind that. At all. I don't really understand move speed runes on her either, W is +50% movespeed. You already faster than erryone else without em. I think AS runes optimal, but a standard jungle runepage (AD+flat armor+scaling MR) works well also. Thing is that she gets great use out of AS becuase if she killing sometjhing in jungle in five hits in the same time period of three hits with AS runes compared to AD/ArP runes she lowering her CD's more. By AP I meant Armor Pent and Red Armor Pent, by MS I meant MR. Sorry for the confusion. Because I quit NA server like 6 months ago then moved to China server for much better ping(from 300 to under 80). So I forgot alot of the runes names in English  . Also, on China server 90% of the population have no way to obtain more than 2 runes pages. Since Tencent(the company that run LoL in China) decided not to sell rune pages for IP or even RP. more than 6 months since the servers up and running, Tencent only sell like 1000 rune pages for a price of 40USD/5 pages. And that sold out like within a few hour back in December of last year. -_-This page is a general page for my jungle and AD carry. The other page is for AP champ. Since a new season will begin on China server tomorrow, I want to switch full time to jungler because I know duo que with a friend that mainly play AD carry or Solo top. Thank you guys alot for the rune input, I still can not run a full Shyvanna page cos there are only 2 pages T_T. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35147 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The later the game goes the better the armpen/aspeed page is, while the ad page is a slightly cheesier early game variant. They both work, its just a matter of how bursty you want to be vs how much sustained damge you want to do and at what stage of the game you want to optimize. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Skarner has only 0.8 AD ratio on Q and building AD on him is definitely the best for clear speed from my opinion. (Obviously you get 2-3 Q's but it's better scaling than 2 Q's) | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 29 2012 01:42 Slayer91 wrote: Over 9 seconds there's a 1.8 AD ratio on W, that applies on all targets, and ONLY your Q and auto hit damage is scaling at all from armour pen, excluding wits end, bonus damage from E, E damage, R damage, W damage, so I wouldn't see why armourpen would be core. It's not like she needs that extra bit of damage mid/late game lol. I'm not even convinced armourpen is that much better if at all than AD at any points of the game if you aren't constantly auto attacking every time you can. (versus running target's you're probably not) Skarner has only 0.8 AD ratio on Q and building AD on him is definitely the best for clear speed from my opinion. (Obviously you get 2-3 Q's but it's better scaling than 2 Q's) Its just an option, and one SV choses to run. Jungling with no pen whatsoever makes you pretty darn weak when going up against enemy champions and bigger jungle creeps. Your E is good, but its only single target when you arent in dragon form. Armpen also helps you against bigger tankier targets in teamfights. You dont really NEED any extra damage to kill a squishy, but armpen does help if you need to attack, say, an Udyr. Again though, Diamondz runs one way, SaintVicious runs the other. Saint really likes armor pen on jungles. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Didn't saint give up on shyvana jungling anyway? I haven't seen him do it in ages. I wouldn't call him the authority on shyvana, he probably just uses the same page on most of his junglers. Like if armour pen was so good people would be buying shit like brutalizer, lol. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Whether it's actually worth it... I don't know. I don't think the difference is huge. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Without armour pen you're doing 990 damage With armour pen you're doing 1870x.54 = 1010 damage. So we're talking like a 2% increase in damage. Now let's say you have wits end as well, and you went into this guy E'd him and W'd for the full duration during this exchange. You're doing 765 base damage from W, 260 + 429 from E, 462 bonus damage from wits end, and you have something like +50 bonus AD, +60 with AD runes, so an extra 90 damage without AD reds and 108 damage with AD So that's 2006-->2024 base magic damage. If the target has 100 mr it's going to be 1003/1012 bonus magic damage. So the final conclusion in this case is that armour pen marks over AD runes in a lategame scenario are giving you 11 damage out of like 2kish, so a 0.5% increase in damage. I know this is extremely back of the envelope calculation but we're giving up this early game speed from AD runes because we're going to be "pretty darn weak" lategame, when you're losing like 0.5% damage? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35147 Posts
On February 29 2012 02:00 Slayer91 wrote: What's the maths look like though? It seems like you're vastly exaggerating the numbers here, while I imagine the difference is very small. I don't see how armour pen makes a big difference against tanky targets when it helps more against squishies. In any case with wits, E, E added damage, and W, not to mention R are all magic damage I can't imagine not having armour pen makes you "weak". Didn't saint give up on shyvana jungling anyway? I haven't seen him do it in ages. I wouldn't call him the authority on shyvana, he probably just uses the same page on most of his junglers. Like if armour pen was so good people would be buying shit like brutalizer, lol. Here's some charts based on pre runes. Granted, these charts are based on either Full AD or Full ArP, but a mixed set would logically come out in the middle I believe. http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/5117-debunked-ad-runes-are-better-than-arpen-runes | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Slayer- I honestly dont think it matters that much. Each has advantages. One doesnt HAVE to be better than the other. If you want to be bursty and are worried about people running from you, run ad. Not that big a deal lol. The main thing on someone like shyvana is that the rune page at least makes SENSE. Armor pen and AS make sense. They will scale well with whatever you buy. AD wont scale as well, but it has early game advantages. Just pick whichever makes sense to you. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Anyways, armour pen makes no sense on a champ that does mostly magic damage and has AD ratios on her magic damage like wtf  A lot of junglers like lee sin and nocturne use armour pen well but shyvana is like udyr and skarner. | ||
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