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On January 16 2014 05:49 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 05:42 Lord Tolkien wrote:On January 16 2014 04:27 Slayer91 wrote:On January 16 2014 01:04 Lord Tolkien wrote:
While Nasus survived the lane generally (shouldn't really die), Vlad could effectively deny Nasus and controlled the tempo of the lane pretty much the entirety of the lane phase (and force a weaker item build-path on him). Same with Rumble and Kennen. The play passive and not let Vlad spam his Q+E+AAs on CD requires that you basically self-zone yourself from the wave. Depending on the jungler during the mid/late lane phase wasn't reliable (warding was mandatory in all the matchups involving pushing Nasus to turret), and given Vlad's then usual summoners (double mobility into early distortion or ghost/ignite)+pool, was fairly difficult to gank if he saw the gank coming. Just as much possibility that Vlad's jungler comes top to dive to set Nasus back before he masses up stacks.
Everything you said here should technically apply now except nasus has 15 more hp5. Somehow that is the difference between getting crushed like you described and being unharassable? If you think that you are full of shit. I played a lot more nasus than probably everyone here and I had no problems vs rumble/kennen and everyone stopped playing vlad but I think I had about even rate of problems/ no problems but I was a lot worse at nasus in those days. Self zoning yourself from the wave is standard nasus play even now against vlad you need to self zone yourself while he AoEs the wave then farm it. Also because wither works through vlad pool its very hard for him to escape, and if he does take ghost/flash, its very hard to actually get a kill off because his burst damage is nearly the same as his harass damage (ult+ignite, I think ignite does 20% more damage also) Wither works, but it's still difficult given it needs to be burnt early to initiate on Vlad, he'll be at range, and he can pool when you're in melee range (and apply a small slow), which, rough experience guestimation, is about the length of the wither. You'll end up roughly in melee range, but with no followup CC, and he's got a clear escape because ghost, or to retaliate if there's no gank. Vlad will probably opt for Mercs if he doesn't have double mobility, and he feels the wither gets too oppressive. Perhaps it's a combination of S4 mastery changes in addition to the itemization, but the current matchup on both sides certainly feels different from S2/early S3. When dealing with attrition lanes (like Nasus vs Vlad and Kennen), there is a threshold between enough harass to whittle you down, or enough regen to let you shrug it off for a long period of time. I feel it just currently leans towards the latter at this point.. On January 16 2014 01:04 Lord Tolkien wrote:
This isn't the case anymore. Dorans Shield prevents the early autoharass from Vlad (which at the very early levels is probably where most of his damage on melee champs top actually come from due to insane CDs early), and Cowl/buffed SV significantly blunts Vlad's late-lane phase power (same with Kennen, and Rumble [pre-Rumble nerfs]).
Vlad doesn't do a whole lot of auto harass and getting hp regen+more pots would actually do more to health yourself than dorans shield, you just get dshield now because its good enough that you can get away with 1 pot and you dont want tobuy any dead end items (you used to be able to build regen beads into locket/bulwark) I mean saying that -15% auto damage completely prevents auto harass is so sensationalist wtf. To make the difference of 1 hp potion you have to auto 20 times, after 3-5 autos max the lane pushes and you get to lifesteal and regen it back at tower anyway. Pushing too fast early is pretty risky anyway because then you can get lvl 3 ganked when nasus hits lvl 2 and the only escape hope is countergank D-shield with the Mastery. which means a total of 12 damage block on his early autoattacks. Additionally, the block applies after resistances. At level 1: assuming 36 armor (18.5 base+12.5 from yellows, +5 from masteries (2 from hardness, 3 from the Legendary Guardian), Vlad's measly level 1 AAs do 48 damage, which is reduced to 35 damage per auto from armor. Dshield+mastery reduces it down to 23 damage (Dshield total reduction is thus actually ~23%). That's...pretty bleh against Nasus regen+sustain. The result is that Vlad can't be as aggressive in early AA harass, because minion retaliation will basically outdamage his autos in a trade, and forces him to rely on his spells (which given CDs early does impact his early pressure. while spamming E early also drains his HP pool). 1: In the first situation, if you're going to gank with a jungler, you save W for when jungler is in range, so he has no way to get away really, maybe with some well timed flash+ghost after pool. 2: I think pre dorans shield buff block was like 4-6 reduced damage from autos, now its like 2. So the difference is prety minor here. The difference is that you're just saying "Before: Vlad does this and this and that and nasus gets zoned. After: Nasus has this armour and this regen and this sustain." You're just being absurdly biased. Most of the factors you mentioned existed before, theres only a small % difference from before and after and you'd have to have played the matchup quite a bit on both sides to notice. Right now you're just doing the same thing everyone else does which is confirmation bias toward the FOTM. The largest nasus change was the mana cost reductions on Q and R, everything else was just a bonus and people noticing him more.
1) Fair. If Vlad isn't deep warding (and often) in the matchup, he's not playing safely enough.
2) I honestly don't think Nasus needs a nerf (the wither/R range nerfs were unnecessary given his current spot), just that the matchup has shifted towards Nasus through itemization/mastery changes. Dshield wasn't used in the matchup because it wasn't efficient (no pots for the start, armor, and half the hp/10, -2 block compared to the late-S3 version post-Aatrox patch). SV itemization was improved against AP tops, and defense tree buffs.
It's also partially due to indirect Vlad nerfs, since he can't use Spectral Wraith anymore (and WotA pretty meh as a selfish item). Rumble and Kennen nerfs also had an impact on their ability to soft/lane counter Nasus.
I really don't want to argue this much more however, so I'll concede the point.
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How does vlad deep ward? There's always 2 gank paths in top lane, if you're lucky and you're purple side, you can get away with 1, buying 2 wards every 3 minutes in a hefty investment and for the first 5-7 levels you won't have any wards and past that nasus already has negatron anyway
+sweeping trinket can disrupt the plan if you double ward
you're right that vlad got a lot weaker with all the spell vamp nerfs, back when hextech revolver was OP that was a big reason you didn't want to pick nasus with vlad being popular
rumble and kennen are FAR weaker at vlad at playing the denying game. There are good arguments at least for vlad having a good chance but those 2 were never huge problem champs except for the fact that nasus probably doesn't like playing against AoE comps that much
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If on blue side (poor side to play Vlad, but workable), Tribush Ward+ward at Wraith does cover against most junglers (minus Vi and Kha currently among FotM junglers, otherwise need to ward tri and baron pit). Requires coordination with midlane, but does work to pre-empt it. If purple side, baron ward is enough (against leaping champions, need one in the river bush as well). It doesn't stop lane ganks, or blue-side ganks from the tribush next to wight (since Vlad will probably be outside the turret), but it does cover the common avenues of ganks without huge warding investments. 1 ward and 1 trinket ward is generally enough on a back to cover it for awhile, though sweeper really does neuter the safety that the wards can buy. Beyond this, jungle timers are usually still somewhat useful to figure out where the enemy jungler is (first top lane gank probably won't come before 3:00-30, the jungler should be doing his second set of buffs between 7-8 minutes).
That being said, don't see people actually using sweeper on a regular basis, or buy it on a top lane champ (they probably should in this kind of push-to-turret matchup, actually). Junglers even prefer trinket wards just because they can get consistent use out of it.
For the AP top lanes, they were never hard counters, but they use to be decent soft-ish matchups against Nasus. Not so much now.
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I often buy sweeper on jungle, thought it was standard
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A lot of jungles seem to be starting yellow trinket and switch to sweeping in the mid game when vision control is more needed.
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On January 16 2014 06:40 Slayer91 wrote:
I often buy sweeper on jungle, thought it was standard
Nightblue3 has been recommending starting Trinket ward on his jungles, actually, just because you can get consistent use out of it and guarantee buff safety, invade with it, check over the wall against baron or dragon steals, etc.
In competitive play I can definitely see it becoming a meta standard, but currently trinket ward is just consistently useful in soloQ, esp. early game.
In the current LCS game of CW vs SK, you see trinket ward on the junglers. The only sweeper(s) is(are) currently on the support(s). First jungler switch to sweeping ~25 minutes.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Here's something unusual I've noticed on my Nasus. At the end of the game, I do a shocking amount of magic damage to champions. In my last game, at full build with 700+ stacks, I ended up doing 48% of my damage to champions as magic damage. Even when I don't buy a Sunfire Cape, magic damage is usually around 35-40% of my damage to champions.
I run Hybrid Penetration marks and was going to swap them out for Armor Penetration when I could afford it, but stats like these are making me reconsider. Is it just the AP from the Sheen items that makes me do so much damage on E and R? Is AP Nasus a viable build, or is it basically a crappier version of Diana? Should I be thinking more about the magic damage components of this champion?
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AP nasus is good
in aram
:D
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Spirit fire actually does very impressive damage even without AP. Also ult is actually quite a bit of % health damage. I wouldn't ever build AP outside gauntlet or triforce though(aram aside). The base value component is just really high. Spirit fire mid-lategame does pretty awesome poke and zone control, and ult does % health drain, which is always going to be relevant.
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On August 08 2014 14:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Here's something unusual I've noticed on my Nasus. At the end of the game, I do a shocking amount of magic damage to champions. In my last game, at full build with 700+ stacks, I ended up doing 48% of my damage to champions as magic damage. Even when I don't buy a Sunfire Cape, magic damage is usually around 35-40% of my damage to champions.
I run Hybrid Penetration marks and was going to swap them out for Armor Penetration when I could afford it, but stats like these are making me reconsider. Is it just the AP from the Sheen items that makes me do so much damage on E and R? Is AP Nasus a viable build, or is it basically a crappier version of Diana? Should I be thinking more about the magic damage components of this champion?
Ap nasus only works in aram. His ratios are crap there is no reason to go for AP in items. See it like this:
If you would build ap you would do mostly magic damage but the damage total you would achieve is not as high as the Physical/Magical damage you have if you just go standard nasus
His base damage is just high thats all
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On August 08 2014 14:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Here's something unusual I've noticed on my Nasus. At the end of the game, I do a shocking amount of magic damage to champions. In my last game, at full build with 700+ stacks, I ended up doing 48% of my damage to champions as magic damage. Even when I don't buy a Sunfire Cape, magic damage is usually around 35-40% of my damage to champions.
I run Hybrid Penetration marks and was going to swap them out for Armor Penetration when I could afford it, but stats like these are making me reconsider. Is it just the AP from the Sheen items that makes me do so much damage on E and R? Is AP Nasus a viable build, or is it basically a crappier version of Diana? Should I be thinking more about the magic damage components of this champion?
I don't understand your conclusion at all. "I do a lot of magic damage" = "25 ap from sheen = GOD DAMAGE LEL" wtf??
Nasus ult at max rank does 5% of max hp per second in an AoE for 15 seconds, and his E does 450ish damage at max rank. AoE tends to rack up a lot more damage even if focused damage is a lot more important in fights. You spend most of your time Qing creeps and then you 2 shot any squishy in range so normally you only get 1 off or something, meanwhile your R and E could be getting loads of ticks off unimportant targets.
hybrid pen is pretty good actually, just keep in mind for bursting people armour is a bit better combined with E armour pen but hybrid is solid enough especially if you go E before Q on some matchups (teemo ryze and that)
the whole point of nasus is high base damages combined with tank items in trade for poor mobility.
People don't think "My Q does like 1k damage, I should go IE PD and do tons of damage" so why should you think "My magic damage is high I should get deathcap voidstaff"?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I don't mean to suggest that he should be building Deathcap. It's just really odd to me that despite all my efforts at farming Q, in the end it barely out damages me pressing R and E. I understand your point that a lot of my magic damage is "fake damage" (in the same way that Zyra/Ziggs is always on top of the damage to champion charts), but I'm just wondering if a build that makes better use of all that magic damage is viable, i.e., Abyssal + Rylai's + Liandry's. I suppose the answer is, no, because your magic damage is actually scaling off your tankiness (i.e., ability to stay in the middle of their team) and this build makes you squishier.
Mostly I'm also just wondering if this is true for others that play Nasus as well, or if I'm doing something unusual, or if it's my Hybrid Penetration marks maybe.
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On August 08 2014 23:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I don't mean to suggest that he should be building Deathcap. It's just really odd to me that despite all my efforts at farming Q, in the end it barely out damages me pressing R and E. I understand your point that a lot of my magic damage is "fake damage" (in the same way that Zyra/Ziggs is always on top of the damage to champion charts), but I'm just wondering if a build that makes better use of all that magic damage is viable, i.e., Abyssal + Rylai's + Liandry's. I suppose the answer is, no, because your magic damage is actually scaling off your tankiness (i.e., ability to stay in the middle of their team) and this build makes you squishier.
Mostly I'm also just wondering if this is true for others that play Nasus as well, or if I'm doing something unusual, or if it's my Hybrid Penetration marks maybe.
Since you answered your own question i guess there is nothing to answer.
It is not unusual to have that much damage with your E and Ult. Think about it:
How many people just stand there and take Q after Q after Q without kiting you? While spirit fire always hits and your ult always deals damage to SOMEBODY around you?
Also the phase in which you are smacking people with your rod is a lot shorter. You are mostly just building it up while trading a little bit here and there with spirit fire/Q. Also your Q is single target vs aoe magic dmg.
edit: Oh well slayer pretty much answered it already
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You're still looking at it wrong, your farming Q is nothing like itemizing damage. you don't build AD on nasus for the same reason you don't build AP on nasus. Even if you did do a lot of magic damage and your tankiness didn't matter his AP ratios aren't good enough to justify building AP, you could build magic pen in the same way LW is pretty good on Nasus.
Also you could be simply not getting many Q's off in fights which is a combination of team comps, your own itemization (im often going trinity+swiftness+alacrity/distortion these days when i get fed and they have lots of ranged guys) and how well you're playing.
Essentially how effective you are with your Q's farming and hitting targets with them is how good you are at nasus, your E and R damage will come anyway especially if you're in range to Q a lot.
I looked at a few of my nasus games match history and I'm doing about 70-75% physical damage.
Because I duo Q I'm usually crushing these games though so when you're carrying you're more likely to be able to get a lot of stuff done while when you aren't as strong you won't be in position to do as much physical from Q's and autos.
Hybrid pen vs armour pen is only a few percentage points increase either way. (I'm running AD for no good reason by the way)
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Hey guys, what champ would you say "hard counters" Nasus? I often run teleport on Nasus and farm at turret if I can't beat my opponent, so that it at least becomes a stalemate.
Vlad, Riven, and who?
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On August 20 2014 01:31 parkufarku wrote:
Hey guys, what champ would you say "hard counters" Nasus? I often run teleport on Nasus and farm at turret if I can't beat my opponent, so that it at least becomes a stalemate.
Vlad, Riven, and who?
Rumble?
Gnar would be pretty good too i guess?
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maybe nidalee, maybe darius, rumble riven definitely not
vlad not really, e max works well vs him and also nasus w slows vlad during pool so it fucks him
gnar is probably terrible against him but nobody plays him but any melee or semi melee is gonna suck against him
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I find Ryze the most difficult champion for me to deal with. Riven can be a pain if she's able to freeze the lane away from tower. Nidalee doesn't have CC to lock you down so unless you severely underestimate her burst potential you're mostly OK. Teemo is obviously brutal but max E and you can at least be meaningful. But Ryze, man, Ryze crushes me every time and scales almost as well to boot.
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you just max E against ryze he has to use his spells on creeps and he can't deal with your harass
your q stacks will kind of suck but you should outfarm him easily and you win 1v1 as well past 6 or 7
with the radius your E effective range is much more than his q
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On August 20 2014 03:48 Slayer91 wrote:
you just max E against ryze he has to use his spells on creeps and he can't deal with your harass
your q stacks will kind of suck but you should outfarm him easily and you win 1v1 as well past 6 or 7
with the radius your E effective range is much more than his q
I think E max is the way to go against any strong ranged harassing champ(I actually do chalice in this matchup). Prevents them from freezing the lane in a bad spot, let's you get farm even in the hardest lanes, and it'll still let you get somewhere around the 3-4 stacks per minute mark. These are lanes you wouldn't get much Q farm in anyways, and by pushing so hard you'll deny some of their farm to turret, and even take the turret eventually.
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EPT
