EPT[Champion] Alistar - Page 5
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dnastyx
United States2707 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 04 2011 12:18 dnastyx wrote: It depends. If you push them against a wall that can't be hopped over, they'll be stunned for the length of time that the headbutt would have pushed them. Otherwise, they can move immediately after the headbutt. Did you see the video? Because that's not what happens. Look at 5:57 for instance; Teemo is out of range of Pulverize, Alistar headbutts him. After teemo stops moving from the headbutt (no walls involved), he's still out of range of pulverize, but Alistar moves up to him while he's stunned and Q's him. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Headbutt (and I believe all movement skills) cancel existing movement orders, so if you bop someone and they don't spam click to move they'll have a shortish delay before moving. | ||
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iaeuy
United States249 Posts
Masteries: Currently running 1/7/22, but you probably dont actually need SoS because of your E. 9/0/21 probably best. Summoners: flash-ignite Runes: Currently running Mpen reds, mp5/lvl yellow and blue, hp quints because that's the best i have, but AP blues and quints are probably better because of his insane AP ratios. Skills: WEWQ, R>W>Q>E (get Q earlier if you can kill or someone ganks your lane, Q for level 1 fights) Items: dring start, buy 1-2 more drings into sheen and deathcap. Possible items after include lichbane, dfg, voidstaff. Not sure how good abyssal/zhonya are because you already have a lot of tankiness from your ult. Early game you can dominate almost all lanes by just spamming headbutt. Because of its 1-1 ratio it does pretty crazy damage with just drings. When laning, note that... - Often the enemy can't retaliate to harass because of the slight delay before you can move again after you get headbutted - If you headbutt and autoattack immediately you can get an attack off as they're being knocked back, meaning an early sheen is really strong. - IMO early on don't waste mana pulverizing every time you headbutt. It has fairly weak damage at first when not leveled, and early on you need mana all your mana on healing and spamming headbutt. - You're pretty hard to gank before 6 and near impossible after. Before 6 you can stun any melee junglers that get near you so they can't slow you with red and then knock them away. After 6 you take a ton of damage to kill and have a free cleanse. - Once they're getting low, flash-headbutt+pulv ignite+autoattacks for guarenteed kill. Even better if you pin them against a wall. - You farm like a boss after level 7ish. Q+a few seconds of trample clears creeps really well. You'll also have 2 or 3 drings, meaning infinite mana for heal and headbutt/pulv. In teamfights just flash-pulv or headbutt pulv if they're clumped. Focus on bursting down squishies. You burst them for most of their health while being stupid hard to kill if you did decent early game . If you did really well early and snowballed you can pretty much oneshot squishies with no little. Thoughts/suggestions? | ||
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lepshis
Lithuania62 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Edit: Similarly, why take valuable jungle with a hero that's slow at it anyways and is sufficient with no lane? | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
I'm questioning efficacy in a proper team. You can have an almost identical Alistar effect with roam cow, with a very minor improvement, while placing a similar lane dominator in the lane, which will place you in good position for mid-late game anyways as you have underpowered lanes on the entire other team. Sort of like Eve, except Eve can't dominate 1v1, but you have almost the same effect with roam cow. So why have solo/jungle cow and have like a 20% (if even) improvement in efficacy when you can have cow AND a hyper farmed/fed Irelia? Edit: Like, heroes like Swain, Karthus, Cass, Sion etc. do the same exact thing that Alistar does, and in some cases even better, in terms of lane control. Heroes like Irelia/Jarv/Xin have a similar amount of solo threat level. They don't "fuck up solos" as much because people play safe when they run into these guys. They know the damage output is there. On the flip side I feel like people go "oh it's cow" and play not as safe as they should. No respect. The damage output is the same, or even lower in the case of Cow, and Cow is far more susceptible to taking return fire, especially from strong early-damage range heroes like Cait and MF. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
EDIT: @ your EDIT, that's true but try laning Irelia/Xin/Jarman vs. Cow. He really beats those guys up in my experience. Early on it's like each Headbutt = 1/3 their HP and cannot be retaliated. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Edit: Oh no I can see Cow rolling those heroes, bear in mind that Amumu does too, so it doesn't surprise me that another hard tank rolls those ;p My point was more that if you see, for instance, Ashe versus Irelia you'll see the Ashe player uber safe. Whereas if you see Ashe vs Alistar you'll see the Ashe play really cheeky, get punished, and react (build-wise) really poorly. It's the same phenomenon I see with Amumu. Like that Vlad I kept killing that other night, like he could not comprehend that I was kicking his ass even after he finished Revolver, kept going for me and dying. People in this game are stupid and have a lot of pride, and it can be really hard to accept that this new hero/strategy is actually stronger and better than you. I had the same issue with Kassadin against new hereos :x I've played against and played as Solo Cow numerous times over the past ~6 months, and nothing in his repertoire really makes him "suddenly kick ass," people are just not giving him respect. Edit2: To explain my Amumu point, you won't see Ashe take potshots at an Irelia. Maybe early, but not at like level 3. Because Ashe players understand that Irelia has the power in the lane, and there is no exchange to be had - once the Irelia bounces to the Ashe the Ashe is taking punishment. But I constantly see Ashe players autoattacking me even at level 5. They don't even punch through my 70 armor + hp regen, but they feel compelled to, and don't understand that the power level is entirely on my side, that they're not gonna stop me from farming, and that they're going to take creep damage that I enjoy seeing them take. And remember, Amumu's harass damage is actually pitiful compared to most of the heroes I've listed in that other post. Why am I crushing these dumbasses? Because they play cheeky and don't give me respect, such that they let me whittle down their HP, and at level 6 Q R ignite dead. No respect. (also no one builds MR when I'm farmed up, if you notice, lol) | ||
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Craton
United States17264 Posts
On May 10 2011 02:45 Mogwai wrote: as much as I'm inclined to agree with you intellectually, experience has just been teaching me otherwise recently. Like, the double 1:1 AP ratio + double CC is like Sion on steroids in lane and then he has a more robust and more powerful carry dive once farmed up in the midgame (not dependent on shield not breaking and then has ult to guarantee his survival). I think the crux of it is really that you underestimate how much more effective he can be during the midgame fights with solid AP items and high level vs. roaming items and low level. And on top of all that, in addition to being sorta like a regular lane dominator, he's also fucking ungankable and will pretty much 100% guarantee kills on friendly ganks even through summoners. It doesn't help that you can abuse headbutt+pulverize to have a 650 range lunge that CCs for 1.5 seconds while doing 50% the HP (or more) of anything squishy. The whole headbutt+pulverize thing is just bad design, imo. It wasn't so bad when it was just CC and basically no damage, but with the current AP FotM it takes off massive chunks of HP. In any event, they'll probably nerf his ratios and hopefully make his ult scale off a defensive stat so you get rid of godmode AP alistar that does 1.5k damage to a carry or support while having impunity to being gibbed or CC'd. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 10 2011 11:01 Craton wrote: It doesn't help that you can abuse headbutt+pulverize to have a 650 range lunge that CCs for 1.5 seconds while doing 50% the HP (or more) of anything squishy. The whole headbutt+pulverize thing is just bad design, imo. It wasn't so bad when it was just CC and basically no damage, but with the current AP FotM it takes off massive chunks of HP. In any event, they'll probably nerf his ratios and hopefully make his ult scale off a defensive stat so you get rid of godmode AP alistar that does 1.5k damage to a carry or support while having impunity to being gibbed or CC'd. If they do that Alistar will be another example of Riot's ability to destroy champ's playability. I have no idea why they even changed Alistar to begin with anyways... The ironic thing is, AP Alistar was stronger before the change, what with 1:1 ratios on both Q and W. It's only recently when people have started to play him AP/play him at all. | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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iaeuy
United States249 Posts
On May 10 2011 11:21 Ryuu314 wrote: If they do that Alistar will be another example of Riot's ability to destroy champ's playability. I have no idea why they even changed Alistar to begin with anyways... The ironic thing is, AP Alistar was stronger before the change, what with 1:1 ratios on both Q and W. It's only recently when people have started to play him AP/play him at all. Nah, AP alistar is a lot better after the change. The .2 AP ratio nerf on Q is compensated for by the free trample time that you get from Q. So after the patch he's much better at farming and has far better cds at lvl 13. AP alistar before had massive down time in between each WQ combo in teamfights and the CD changes helped a lot. | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On May 10 2011 12:42 nyxnyxnyx wrote: i'd just like to point out that in addition to the often-mentioned headbutt+pulverize combo, there's the red-headed stepchild known as headbutt+autoattack. same concept, butt then autotattack, sends you hurtling towards the target, you maul the air, the guy flies back and takes headbutt+1 autoattack worth of damage. real crazy harass is it enough clicking them while you are flying towards them or is some precise timing required | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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iaeuy
United States249 Posts
On May 09 2011 06:19 iaeuy wrote: - If you headbutt and autoattack immediately you can get an attack off as they're being knocked back, meaning an early sheen is really strong. On May 10 2011 16:41 nyxnyxnyx wrote: also wanna add on sheen with the headbutt+attack is crazy :O | ||
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