Didn't see an Alistar guide, so I thought I'd write one. With the nerfing of previous fotm champs, the 2 most popular tanks nowadays (Shen and Rammus) are now banned 95% of ranked games. Therefore, I've been seeing Alistar more frequently. There's 2 main ways to play him: AD tank and AP tank - I only play AD tank, so this guide will be for that build, but I've seen a lilac crush scrubs with his AP build. If enough people ask for it, I'll try to make up a build and any differences, but I'm far less experienced with it.
Summoners
You have 2 options here: Ghost/Flash or Flash/Ignite.
Flash is a necessity. The only way you're going to catch 3 people in a single pulverize is with flash; people typically aren't dumb enough to let themselves get caught in a 2+s disable with the rest of their teammates.
Ghost vs Ignite debate. Ignite is really really strong for getting early kills, and Alistar's skillset makes him deal a huge burst of dmg early on. What this means is that I always take ignite, and I try to crush my lane with it. Additionally, Ignite has a shorter CD conducive to roaming. Ghost, on the other hand, is better for team fights because Alistar needs the mobility to consistently land his stun and his knockback in favorable ways.
Masteries
0/9/21. Key points are SoS, obvious utility points.
Runes
I'll always do mixed rune pages for as long as I play LoL, so you guys can suck it.
Reds: Armor Pen Yellows: 3 MP5/lvl, 6 Flat Armor Blues: 3 MP5/lvl, 6 Flat MR Quints: 2 MoveSpeed, 1 Flat HP (ok this one's kinda arbitrary; you can do 3 MoveSpeed and it probably doesn't matter too much, but I feel scared running around with minimum hp and Boots open)
Justifications: I'm doing an AD build, and you'll be throwing out enough physical damage early game to justify getting Arpen. As for yellows and blues, I like to keep the bare minimum of MP5s - mana is a stat that is worthless unless you have none of it, and with the MP5 nerf, I've found that this is enough to keep you going. Flat defensive runes are better for Alistar because he has his ult once he reaches 6. Movespeed quints should be obvious - you need the mobility to position yourself for your Q and W.
Item Build
1. Open Boots/2 reds/blue. 2. Boots of Mobility 3. Sheen 4. Heart of Gold if I'm not getting enough kills/assists, Zeal if I am. 5. Finish Trinity Force. 6. Kindle Gem --> Finish Spirit Visage.
After that, it's really up to you. If you got a Heart of Gold earlier, now would be the time to make it a Randuins. I would rather max out my CDR over tanking up because Alistar doesn't need as many tank items to survive, but you need CDR to stay relevant.
Skill Build
Q W W E W R, R>W>E>Q. None of Alistar's CDs are reduced by placing more points except R, and W has a shorter CD and has slightly better damage, so I max that first. I max E afterwards because is has a potentially shorter CD, which could useful to obtain a Sheen proc, and you can bait people with low health and ult on and heals.
Playstyle
I play Alistar as a mixture of roaming and lane-crushing.
Lanecrushing: With boots and MS quints, you outrun everybody - remember this. Alistar should wait till lvl2 before going for a kill - you can Q people and hit them a few times for some damage to soften them up, just remember to pot up before you go for the kill at lvl2 or 3. There's a lot of ways you can go for the kill. One way is to position yourself in the bushes so that if you headbutt them, they're stopped against the wall. Hit them once (you want to get in every rightclick that you can - your skills alone don't do that much damage, so every hit counts), then Q them. Wail on them until they're dead, and don't forget to Ignite. Another way is if they're pushing your tower, and their creep wave is almost dead. Flash on top of them, Q, then W them into your tower. This is almost a guaranteed kill even if they have flash because W's knockback effect also disables them from doing anything for a short period of time. Remember: walls are your friends. When you headbutt them, their travel distance is reduced but the stun duration is the same, giving you more time to walk up to them and punch them.
Roaming: especially effective against champs that push the lane (Heimer, Mord). Get behind them from the jungle, then headbutt towards your team. Guaranteed kill if your teammate has any sort of cc. If you're running Ignite, you can try ganking their jungler at lvl1 if they're starting at Blue. Otherwise, hit lvl2 at least in lane, and then see if mid is gankable. If you've hit 6, you can even gank from BEHIND the tower, then headbutt your target into middle of the lane, and cast your ult. Many players aren't prepared for this type of play and get really flustered, so do it for the lulz.
Damage output: in order to maximize damage, be aware of your sheen proc timing. However, sometimes you just need to get your stun off so that your team can catch up. One way to perform this at absurd range is the W->Q combo. As soon as your headbutt gets off, press Q so that before they fly away, they are knocked upwards. You're losing some damage and the positional advantage of W, but your team can catch up. If you enjoy doing this combo, the AP build might be more suitable for you because you don't lose sheen procs while doing it.
Counters
True damage destroys you. If you see an Olaf, Irelia, or Cho on the other team, PLEASE DO NOT PICK ALISTAR. Alistar has decent HP growth, but he can't afford to buy tanky items because he sacrifices too much utility. He DEPENDS on his ult to survive, and true damage completely negates it. Avoid at all costs.
That's the end of my guide. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
On February 10 2011 19:50 Jougen wrote: (...) That's the end of my guide. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Will you marry me?
Bad question?
I always considered roaming alistars cool/impressive but i always fail at them, get 0 kills and so i'm underfarmed and underleveled. What do you do when roaming fails? Do you leech XP from lanes that you roam to or just go back to your lane and sit there?
Thanks for the guide BTW, i'm bad with sidelaners, i always liked alistar so i hope this guide will help me
Don't completely roam. If you get a kill, stick around and leech to the next level if you're close; typically, the solos don't mind because you just helped them get a kill (don't take their cs though, that'll still piss them off). If you miss the kill, you can either go around and try it again (they'll be wary, so chances of success are lower, but will make them pretty fucking paranoid afterwards, even when you leave), or move onto top lane and try for it there. Don't make it obvious in which direction you're headed - play mindgames with their team by exiting the lane to go bot, then loop around to go top.
If you're poor, get a HoG and that should make up for your roaming. You can also get a PhiloStone to make a Shurelya's later, but I've never done it myself. Even when you fail, you're inducing paranoia into the enemy and giving your teammate a lane advantage, which is good by itself. That's one of the reasons why I open boots, and later gets Mobility - I can get around more quickly to where I'll be useful.
On February 10 2011 20:47 spinesheath wrote: Is Triforce really a good item on Alistar? His cooldowns aren't very short and imo the Phage proc isn't good on him either.
Sheen by itself is plenty strong early-game to increase your burst combo, especially since Alistar has extremely high base AD/growth. I'll admit that the Phage proc isn't that great on him, but the increased mobility from Zeal and the extra bit of HP all help. Triforce also helps a lot for pushing towers, since it benefits your passive too. Once you start stacking CDR, your Trinity investment is amplified too.
Yeah, I know. The problem with Teleport is you need to have the map awareness to countergank with it, so if you feel confident that you're aware of everything going on, then go for it.
Ohhh maaan just played a game where i took Alistar and my friend took Sion and we went to bot lane. Enemies got crushed hard and they were crying about "WTF bot is so gay", i ganked mid and let our corki get a kill at lvl 3, then after udyr's gank at lvl 5 (we got more lvls cause of early kills) we took down tower and then dualgaystun raped entire enemy team. Diving towers with ult just to kick enemy carry out of tower to your team is so fun ))
I always considered Ali to be really boring champ with gameplaying being purely "heal heal heal, use ult" (because last time i played him was ~ a year ago;) ) but now I definitely changed my mind, he is SO FUN. I recommend playing him to everyone.
Thanks a lot for this guide I wonder if it wouldn't be better to go W>Q>E over W>E>Q but i guess increasing mana cost of both Q AND W would be too much, having low mana disable is a useful talent toi have.
Also i guess grabbing oracle on Alistar is awesome idea sooner or later?
On February 11 2011 03:25 TheYango wrote: What are your thoughts on CDR boots?
How about Cata as an item option?
CDR boots are also really strong on Alistar. However, there's so many ways you can itemize for CDR, whereas mobility options are more limited, so that's why I stick with Mobility Boots.
As for Cata, it's a really really bad choice for Alistar due to 3 reasons I can think of right now: 1. If you roam, you'll typically have a hard time finding exp, so the passive is near worthless to you. 2. It doesn't build into anything you want. Your ult is your built-in Banshee. 3. Its stats don't really benefit you in a great way.
I find that Kindlegem is a much better option for the HP it provides and the CDR.
I wonder if it wouldn't be better to go W>Q>E over W>E>Q but i guess increasing mana cost of both Q AND W would be too much, having low mana disable is a useful talent toi have.
Also i guess grabbing oracle on Alistar is awesome idea sooner or later?
The damage increase from leveling Q isn't worthwhile enough to level it over E unless you're going an AP build. E lets you stay around and continue pushes more easily.
In a serious game, I would probably grab an oracle after finishing maybe my Sheen and my HoG. I'd rather someone else on my team get it though because I tend to play recklessly and use my ult to get out of bad situations, which only works if you're already winning the game.
Cow is definitely too fun. I've found level 1 ganks actually work too, depending on the lane. Pulverize/force summoners, walk around and do it again; lands kills if they're not careful. If they stay back, they've lost a good chunk of HP and don't have any summoners.
I hate trying to gank MF early though. Fuck that strut.
I'm convinced Alistar is the best duo lane in the game at the moment because Shen and Janna are auto-bans. He's a tanky roaming ganking babysitting healer that crushes lanes and wins teamfights and needs 0 items to achieve his primary role as an initiating tank. Like... what more could you want?
I usually include a philos stone (for a shurelia's later which is really good on alistar, dont see why you would want a spirit visage over this, his heal is neglectable when u dont get any AP except sheen) instead of HoG when I am not getting kills (and often before sheen if I can see neither lane is gonna get kills), often when nothing is going on in lanes Id go (passiviest scenario imagineable): boots +3 pot opener, philos, hog, mobillity, triforce, ghostblade / banshees, either of them which u need the most, upgrade philos / hog / get the either of ghostblade before which you didnt before.
With that setup and 21 utillity you will have 40 % cooldown reduction from items, no need to hug a blue pot for that. People should remember that if your team has other tanks you can being a carry hunter instead of a babysitter.
Remember to put alistar in with the following lane partners for some lulz: Sion, Poppy, Blitz (either of these are REALLY fucking strong, its not even funny how a grab, good headbut or ANYTHING will kill them if they dont have their summoners). Poppy is self explanatory, flash into pulv, knock back, and poppy will have their way with them if you have a good headbut or not). Sion is just standard stun rape lane but still so strng..
On March 09 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote: I usually include a philos stone (for a shurelia's later which is really good on alistar, dont see why you would want a spirit visage over this, his heal is neglectable when u dont get any AP except sheen) instead of HoG when I am not getting kills (and often before sheen if I can see neither lane is gonna get kills), often when nothing is going on in lanes Id go (passiviest scenario imagineable): boots +3 pot opener, philos, hog, mobillity, triforce, ghostblade / banshees, either of them which u need the most, upgrade philos / hog / get the either of ghostblade before which you didnt before.
With that setup and 21 utillity you will have 40 % cooldown reduction from items, no need to hug a blue pot for that. People should remember that if your team has other tanks you can being a carry hunter instead of a babysitter.
Remember to put alistar in with the following lane partners for some lulz: Sion, Poppy, Blitz (either of these are REALLY fucking strong, its not even funny how a grab, good headbut or ANYTHING will kill them if they dont have their summoners). Poppy is self explanatory, flash into pulv, knock back, and poppy will have their way with them if you have a good headbut or not). Sion is just standard stun rape lane but still so strng..
Read the guide, Joug is getting SV because of CDR and it's all explained in the guide. Your build seems to be really unreal, how to get so many items as Ali?
and I think if ur only doing it for the CDR shurelias is better everyway, utillity buff, super laning with philos (the regen really does alot especially if ur roaming)
And I did read the guide, I just find SV not worth getting for the CDR after its nerfs.. YOu should only get it on Mundo / WW fx who benefit ALOT by it.
I think Kaniol is more referring to the total cost of your items being something like 15000 gold. I don't get 15000 gold in a reasonably long game as Singed, and there is no way Alistar outfarms Singed even if you add in the gp5 items.
On March 09 2011 19:46 crate wrote: I think Kaniol is more referring to the total cost of your items being something like 15000 gold. I don't get 15000 gold in a reasonably long game as Singed, and there is no way Alistar outfarms Singed even if you add in the gp5 items.
I allways list items as priority, consider my build as what i consider as my "goal" and yes, I've tried getitng that before, didnt say you should aim for it, just said which items i get in what order.
I dont recall saying that they should allways be gotten, often you finish games only with mobility, hog, philos sheen and phage fx, its not uncommon.
If youre actually gonna comment on my item choices then comment on wether they are the optimal choice or not, not how unrealistic it is, because if you know which items are best for your champ most of the time you can allways repriotize on them. for ex after tri force, what would you get? your team is getting caught and you never have cds up? you need damage or utillity ? shurelias or ghostblade. You have trouble staying alive? Banshees for anti caster, omen for anti melee while stile having utillity.
Also, one need to understand the awesomeness of shurelias + omen + ghostblade actives. press 1-2-3 and you catch ANYBODY for the next 3 hours.
On March 14 2011 21:50 HazMat wrote: You're delaying your boots of mobility by way too much.
I think I mention that I switch it up alot, the thing I delay / dont get is actually HoG triforce, since I find myself getting philos stone and boots of mobillity the earliest.
maybe thats just wrong but my gut feeling says its fine
Does anyone have a bunch of Alistar reps they would be willing to share, or know of a good place to get reliable reps? Going off of bw logic, reps are pretty much essential to get better and they are hard to find
after playing almost exclusively alistar over the past week, trying every build imaginable, i have come to the conclusion that the following build is the definitive way to play him
health pendant + pot ask your lane partner to let you have the first 365 gold, b and buy philo stone if your bot lane partner is a good 2-skill burster (cho, blitz, jarvan, etc... not ashe, janna, etc) then farm some kills bot, else get another 350 gold and get boots and roam philo/philo/HoG or philo/HoG/HoG depending on enemy teamcomp, plus mobilities, all by about 16 minutes from there you build NLR -> sheen or deathcap -> sheen, -> lichbane your heals will be meaningful, your combo will be brutal, you'll miss the triforce stats but the additional burst damage makes this build much better IMO eventually you build shurelia's and randuins, and fill the last slot with any item of your choosing (pref an AP item tho) and you'll eventually sell mobilities for swifties because when you roam as a team, the movespeed5 doesn't help as much as the movespeed3 constantly in fights does
On March 28 2011 17:22 gtrsrs wrote: after playing almost exclusively alistar over the past week, trying every build imaginable, i have come to the conclusion that the following build is the definitive way to play him
health pendant + pot ask your lane partner to let you have the first 365 gold, b and buy philo stone if your bot lane partner is a good 2-skill burster (cho, blitz, jarvan, etc... not ashe, janna, etc) then farm some kills bot, else get another 350 gold and get boots and roam philo/philo/HoG or philo/HoG/HoG depending on enemy teamcomp, plus mobilities, all by about 16 minutes from there you build NLR -> sheen or deathcap -> sheen, -> lichbane your heals will be meaningful, your combo will be brutal, you'll miss the triforce stats but the additional burst damage makes this build much better IMO eventually you build shurelia's and randuins, and fill the last slot with any item of your choosing (pref an AP item tho) and you'll eventually sell mobilities for swifties because when you roam as a team, the movespeed5 doesn't help as much as the movespeed3 constantly in fights does
Chauster would disagree. AP or AD Cow, never tank cow.
yeah... that's an AP build. the only tank item is randuins and that's for the utility of flash->pulverize->randuins and the CDR more than the armor imo
Yeah, pretty much I guess. But you need to open Boots => Sheen for early game damage. I like Mobility right after Boots but before Sheen but Chau hates Mobility. zz
On March 29 2011 02:09 NeoIllusions wrote: Yeah, pretty much I guess. But you need to open Boots => Sheen for early game damage. I like Mobility right after Boots but before Sheen but Chau hates Mobility. zz
Zerk / Merc / Sorc isnt a bad choice either, chauster is scary good but he isnt the end and start of LoL
On March 29 2011 03:37 Mogwai wrote: I guess I'm the only person who doesn't like sheen on Alistar.
i don't either it's really expensive and only adds like 100 damage to your gank i'd rather just get another gold/5 item and play for the endgame tbh, ESPECIALLY if i'm not getting a bunch of good ganks early
yea, I guess I just don't get how people are attacking enough with Alistar lategame to feel like Triforce was worth the 4K gold they spent on it. Even with crazy movespeed I still feel like I'm spending all of my time in teamfights repositioning and using abilities.
I typically run something like boots -> philo -> boots of mobility -> HoG -> Aegis + Soul Shroud + Reverie in some order -> Omen + Banshee's or FoN in some order. I dunno, I'm pretty amateur with Cow I guess, but I still just hate the Triforce builds and don't understand why people do them .
On March 29 2011 03:59 Mogwai wrote: yea, I guess I just don't get how people are attacking enough with Alistar lategame to feel like Triforce was worth the 4K gold they spent on it. Even with crazy movespeed I still feel like I'm spending all of my time in teamfights repositioning and using abilities.
I typically run something like boots -> philo -> boots of mobility -> HoG -> Aegis + Soul Shroud + Reverie in some order -> Omen + Banshee's or FoN in some order. I dunno, I'm pretty amateur with Cow I guess, but I still just hate the Triforce builds and don't understand why people do them .
I use teamfights like that when I am AP, triforce build is pro because their carrys never saw you coming.
Oh and you actually act like a Yi with CC who cant be killed in teamfights.
And I guess you didnt play vs some pro AD alistar, its just too damn awesome.
but then he's not with your team to teamfight and teamfighting is his greatest skill -_-
if I wanted to buttsehks a carry, I'd play someone who can actually buttsehks a carry, not Alistar. I mean, why would I pick alistar and grab triforce so that I could slowly kill a carry when I could just pick jarman and build 100% tank and rape their carry three times as fast? It just seems like you're playing the character in the wrong role.
On March 29 2011 05:39 Mogwai wrote: but then he's not with your team to teamfight and teamfighting is his greatest skill -_-
if I wanted to buttsehks a carry, I'd play someone who can actually buttsehks a carry, not Alistar. I mean, why would I pick alistar and grab triforce so that I could slowly kill a carry when I could just pick jarman and build 100% tank and rape their carry three times as fast? It just seems like you're playing the character in the wrong role.
In a full on 5v5, Alistar might not look as appealing as say Jarman but Cow can pick off champions much more easily. Trinity just has a good array of stats, same reason why any melee DPS champ builds a Trinity. HP/MS/Sheen proc. And Sheen proc is amazing. Cow has great base damage. Q auto, W auto, E auto, that adds up to a lot of damage in about 5 seconds. And two of the moves are CC.
Not to mention tower push with/without team with Sheen is just stupid. 1 level of E at level 4 and you're set.
On March 29 2011 05:39 Mogwai wrote: but then he's not with your team to teamfight and teamfighting is his greatest skill -_-
if I wanted to buttsehks a carry, I'd play someone who can actually buttsehks a carry, not Alistar. I mean, why would I pick alistar and grab triforce so that I could slowly kill a carry when I could just pick jarman and build 100% tank and rape their carry three times as fast? It just seems like you're playing the character in the wrong role.
You got it wrong, alistar doesnt kill the carrys, slowly.
He fucking demolishes then and throws them into your team, and alistar with ulti + triforce + ghostblade is a yi on steroids.
or I could build CDR and be way more disruptive and just let my team rape the carry when I throw him into them. why would your team care about Alistar doubling his shitty damage output when they want to blow their load on your target anyway? I dunno, it just feels like a dumb build to me.
Triforce does really bump up the damage he does and it's not like you need survivability for the 6 seconds your ult is up. Most importantly, it practically triples your braveness, making it easier to initiate.
It's pretty funny when an Alistar 1v1's a carry with zerkers and ghostblade though. I don't know, Alistar just seems viable anyway you build him, EXCEPT for full tank.
Hey, skimmed through this thread... Saw (if I remember correctly) Shake talking about Jungle Cow? I tried it out in a few custom games after I saw this... Didn't really work out too well. I've seen it done multiple times in Ranked (~1700 elo), and most of them go cloth + 5 pot, but I don't really know their runes/masteries to be efficient. I look at their pages/setups after game, but they all run different rune/mastery setups. And I tried running mimic pages/setups, still died in jungle/wasn't able to gank at proper times. I'm pretty convinced that I just suck at Alistar or these guys I see are just amazing.
What do I run for runes/masteries to not fail as jungle cow?
On March 29 2011 09:39 awesomoboi wrote: Hey, skimmed through this thread... Saw (if I remember correctly) Shake talking about Jungle Cow? I tried it out in a few custom games after I saw this... Didn't really work out too well. I've seen it done multiple times in Ranked (~1700 elo), and most of them go cloth + 5 pot, but I don't really know their runes/masteries to be efficient. I look at their pages/setups after game, but they all run different rune/mastery setups. And I tried running mimic pages/setups, still died in jungle/wasn't able to gank at proper times. I'm pretty convinced that I just suck at Alistar or these guys I see are just amazing.
What do I run for runes/masteries to not fail as jungle cow?
Ive done jungle cow once or twice, but that was before the jungle changes a few months ago, so I'm not sure what has changed with him
basically what i did with him before was start blue with cloth armor and E for healing yourself..slowly killing golem with auto attacks(no one said cow was fast) after you have blue you can heal indefinitely so you dont really have issues jungling, though you're still super slow, once you have Pulv you could try a gank(stronger if you have headbutt as well obviously)
tbh cow can probably jungle slightly more easily than before since you can have someone leash for you now
jungle cow really hard to make work because smite takes up a precious summoner spell and he's soooo slow. much better to have a legit ganking jungler and just roam with him so your ganks are twice as likely to succeed
On March 29 2011 11:58 gtrsrs wrote: jungle cow really hard to make work because smite takes up a precious summoner spell and he's soooo slow. much better to have a legit ganking jungler and just roam with him so your ganks are twice as likely to succeed
They remove my puntstun because they haet me. I go sulk with the neutrals.
Summoners
Smite/Flash, no exceptions. Need Flash to get into good positions for your pulv still (the radius isn't big enough even after the rework), need Smite to not die in the jungle and for neutral control.
Masteries
9/0/21, standard caster style masteries. You can run 0/9/21 if you prefer, but I like having the extra pen, and the CDR helps when your pulv + headbutt have such high CDs at early levels.
Runes
Quints: HP or MS Reds: ASPD/ArPen/MPen all work, the first two speed up your jungle; the third makes your ganks do more deepz. Yellow: Armor Blue: CDR (flat) or MR/level or ASPD
Skill Order
QEEW or QEQW both work, it's just a matter of preference. Consider it terms of your gank - is the displacement + stun going to be enough that you can go for two levels in E to speed up your jungle, or will you need the little bit of extra damage on Q?
I haven't tried E first, but it might be possible to do blue with it.
R>Q>W/E>W/E after that. I prefer maxing Q/W now because of the CD decrease.
Items
Cloth + Pots Boots1 (turn into Boots5 or Boots3, depending on what you like to do~) Sheen Whatever the fuck you want; you're a cow
How2Play
Have someone leash blue. Pulverize the shit out of it and beat it to death. Smite it blah blah. Next level get E, beat the crap out of wolves and spam it to activate your passive. Trample destroys Wolves/Wraiths, so those camps should go quickly. While on some junglers, it's better to save red until after you buy boots, Alistar's gank potential comes from his displacement ability, so you can grab red on your first run through the jungle, go back for boots, and go gank a lane. Get some gold/5 items if you need them, although your farm in the jungle is usually pretty good relative to what lane/roam Alistar got, so it might not be necessary. You're not farm dependent, but it's nice on you. You also don't need buffs to gank, so if you see an early opportunity and you have Q+W up, go for it.
Puntstun is GONE, so be careful of that when you're trying to gank. Something you can try is stealing the opponent's wraiths on your second run through the jungle and coming out from behind the mid tower to gank. Obviously works better if you have ulti to tank the tower when necessary.
Counterjungling is possible, but you usually don't have enough damage to straight out kill the other jungler, although it's hilariously easy to snipe buffs if you Q+W the enemy jungler away.
Counterjungling is possible, but you usually don't have enough damage to straight out kill the other jungler, although it's hilariously easy to snipe buffs if you Q+W the enemy jungler away.
Is it just me or did the Patch really change the way Alister is to be played?
I picked him right after the patch and got 11 kills, I think the most I got pre-patch was 5. It may be that people don't realise he can just Ghost through minions off of a heal, but pre-patch my average game was 0-1/0-3/15+. W can now be used like a second flash if some one is attacking minions, but it would problebly be better to just heal and pass through the minions to keep W off cooldown. I'm starting to think that rushing a leviathan may actually be possible if you're not in the solo lane.
Just FYI, I think roam/botlane cow is still a lot better, but jungle cow is a fun gimmick. My path and setup can probably be optimized to hell and back, but this is just from a few games of testing.
jungle cow ganks like a bawss, but still sucks really hard after the first run. you gotta be donating those buffs 100% of the time after the first run IMO.
On April 28 2011 01:53 Sabin010 wrote: Is it just me or did the Patch really change the way Alister is to be played?
I picked him right after the patch and got 11 kills, I think the most I got pre-patch was 5. It may be that people don't realise he can just Ghost through minions off of a heal, but pre-patch my average game was 0-1/0-3/15+. W can now be used like a second flash if some one is attacking minions, but it would problebly be better to just heal and pass through the minions to keep W off cooldown. I'm starting to think that rushing a leviathan may actually be possible if you're not in the solo lane.
On April 28 2011 01:53 Sabin010 wrote: Is it just me or did the Patch really change the way Alister is to be played?
I picked him right after the patch and got 11 kills, I think the most I got pre-patch was 5. It may be that people don't realise he can just Ghost through minions off of a heal, but pre-patch my average game was 0-1/0-3/15+. W can now be used like a second flash if some one is attacking minions, but it would problebly be better to just heal and pass through the minions to keep W off cooldown. I'm starting to think that rushing a leviathan may actually be possible if you're not in the solo lane.
Man, twice in this game now I haven't been able to move at all with Alistar...seems to happen when I mash a couple skills and he gets locked up. This happen lately to anyone?
On April 30 2011 18:50 WaveofShadow wrote: Man, twice in this game now I haven't been able to move at all with Alistar...seems to happen when I mash a couple skills and he gets locked up. This happen lately to anyone?
LOL that happened to me once. I thought it was lag/me being retarded but I guess not
On April 28 2011 05:34 Lanzoma wrote: In other news, head-butt > pulverize combo taken out was unintended and will be patched back in.
Even after the hotfix that "fixed" this, I'm still unable to perform the combo 90% of the time. So either I'm doing it wrong, or it doesn't work properly vs. bots (was testing it in a practice game), or the combo doesn't work most of the time, now.
On May 01 2011 01:28 Juicyfruit wrote: It works perfectly.
Make it auto-smartcast, and W->Q as fast as possible.
Oh wow.
I'd never used smartcast before, so I looked up how to auto-smartcast, rebound my q-w-e keys to smartcast on those spells, and chaining Ali's W->Q is sooo easy now @_X
With Brand free to play this week, chaining his E->Q also feels a LOT faster with auto-smartcast on, I bet this is also true for several other champions like Ryze and Jarman. Thanks for the tip, I need to try auto-smartcast some more, see if I can get used to it; it sounds like it could be a straight-up superior setup.
I'm uncertain about auto-smartcasting R though, on some champions like Lux, Maokai, Fiddlesticks, Anivia, Annie and MF, it sounds like being a little slower on the cast is an acceptable tradeoff in exchange for being able to see the targeting reticle and making sure you aim your ult just right.
On May 01 2011 01:28 Juicyfruit wrote: It works perfectly.
Make it auto-smartcast, and W->Q as fast as possible.
Oh wow.
I'd never used smartcast before, so I looked up how to auto-smartcast, rebound my q-w-e keys to smartcast on those spells, and chaining Ali's W->Q is sooo easy now @_X
With Brand free to play this week, chaining his E->Q also feels a LOT faster with auto-smartcast on, I bet this is also true for several other champions like Ryze and Jarman. Thanks for the tip, I need to try auto-smartcast some more, see if I can get used to it; it sounds like it could be a straight-up superior setup.
I'm uncertain about auto-smartcasting R though, on some champions like Lux, Maokai, Fiddlesticks, Anivia, Annie and MF, it sounds like being a little slower on the cast is an acceptable tradeoff in exchange for being able to see the targeting reticle and making sure you aim your ult just right.
I rebound shift-QWER to normal cast, so I can line up cross-map Ashe arrows the usual way but still have instant-cast point blank arrows if someone jumps on me for example.
On May 01 2011 12:25 starfries wrote: I rebound shift-QWER to normal cast, so I can line up cross-map Ashe arrows the usual way but still have instant-cast point blank arrows if someone jumps on me for example.
How did you do this? If I try to bind, say, Cast Spell 1 to Shift+Q, I get an error message saying "Cast Spell 1 cannot be bound as specified".
EDIT: Nvm, found out it works if you edit it directly on the Input file @ C:/Riot Games/League of Legends/game/DATA/CFG to look like this
I know, his opponents are caught at low HP in bad places all game long, the Alistar is massively fed and the comment near the end that says "ive never played against an ali before" is pretty telling. But what the vid taught me is that apparently, even though the patch notes don't mention it, Headbutt stuns targets for a significant time after moving them now.
It depends. If you push them against a wall that can't be hopped over, they'll be stunned for the length of time that the headbutt would have pushed them. Otherwise, they can move immediately after the headbutt.
On May 04 2011 12:18 dnastyx wrote: It depends. If you push them against a wall that can't be hopped over, they'll be stunned for the length of time that the headbutt would have pushed them. Otherwise, they can move immediately after the headbutt.
Did you see the video? Because that's not what happens. Look at 5:57 for instance; Teemo is out of range of Pulverize, Alistar headbutts him. After teemo stops moving from the headbutt (no walls involved), he's still out of range of pulverize, but Alistar moves up to him while he's stunned and Q's him.
Bad reflexes most likely. Headbutt (and I believe all movement skills) cancel existing movement orders, so if you bop someone and they don't spam click to move they'll have a shortish delay before moving.
So I've been playing AP solo lane alistar, and it seems pretty strong, or at the very least, incredibly fun. You're basically Sion but better in every way. Here is my current playstyle:
Masteries: Currently running 1/7/22, but you probably dont actually need SoS because of your E. 9/0/21 probably best. Summoners: flash-ignite Runes: Currently running Mpen reds, mp5/lvl yellow and blue, hp quints because that's the best i have, but AP blues and quints are probably better because of his insane AP ratios. Skills: WEWQ, R>W>Q>E (get Q earlier if you can kill or someone ganks your lane, Q for level 1 fights) Items: dring start, buy 1-2 more drings into sheen and deathcap. Possible items after include lichbane, dfg, voidstaff. Not sure how good abyssal/zhonya are because you already have a lot of tankiness from your ult.
Early game you can dominate almost all lanes by just spamming headbutt. Because of its 1-1 ratio it does pretty crazy damage with just drings. When laning, note that... - Often the enemy can't retaliate to harass because of the slight delay before you can move again after you get headbutted - If you headbutt and autoattack immediately you can get an attack off as they're being knocked back, meaning an early sheen is really strong. - IMO early on don't waste mana pulverizing every time you headbutt. It has fairly weak damage at first when not leveled, and early on you need mana all your mana on healing and spamming headbutt. - You're pretty hard to gank before 6 and near impossible after. Before 6 you can stun any melee junglers that get near you so they can't slow you with red and then knock them away. After 6 you take a ton of damage to kill and have a free cleanse. - Once they're getting low, flash-headbutt+pulv ignite+autoattacks for guarenteed kill. Even better if you pin them against a wall. - You farm like a boss after level 7ish. Q+a few seconds of trample clears creeps really well. You'll also have 2 or 3 drings, meaning infinite mana for heal and headbutt/pulv.
In teamfights just flash-pulv or headbutt pulv if they're clumped. Focus on bursting down squishies. You burst them for most of their health while being stupid hard to kill if you did decent early game . If you did really well early and snowballed you can pretty much oneshot squishies with no little.
i've been playing like that too lately, feels pretty awesome. Tho there's nothing better than trolling with jungle ali with wrigles->bersekers->phantom->infinity.
I know, but I'm just saying that your "majority of cases" is actually not true in my experience. He just seems to fuck up most solos really hard and then comes out midgame with a deathcap and can 2 shot your carry and then activate ult and be a tank for the rest of the fight. I think there's a lot of value to solo Alistar.
I'm not questioning the efficacy of solo lane Alistar (incidentally his damage output in lane isn't really all it's cracked up to be, it just happens to throw a lot of players off their game because they feel compelled to harass him and they underestimate his damage output as opposed to if they were laning against a standard lane dominator), but you can get a similar effect or have a strong laner otherwise.
I'm questioning efficacy in a proper team. You can have an almost identical Alistar effect with roam cow, with a very minor improvement, while placing a similar lane dominator in the lane, which will place you in good position for mid-late game anyways as you have underpowered lanes on the entire other team. Sort of like Eve, except Eve can't dominate 1v1, but you have almost the same effect with roam cow. So why have solo/jungle cow and have like a 20% (if even) improvement in efficacy when you can have cow AND a hyper farmed/fed Irelia?
Edit: Like, heroes like Swain, Karthus, Cass, Sion etc. do the same exact thing that Alistar does, and in some cases even better, in terms of lane control. Heroes like Irelia/Jarv/Xin have a similar amount of solo threat level. They don't "fuck up solos" as much because people play safe when they run into these guys. They know the damage output is there. On the flip side I feel like people go "oh it's cow" and play not as safe as they should. No respect. The damage output is the same, or even lower in the case of Cow, and Cow is far more susceptible to taking return fire, especially from strong early-damage range heroes like Cait and MF.
as much as I'm inclined to agree with you intellectually, experience has just been teaching me otherwise recently. Like, the double 1:1 AP ratio + double CC is like Sion on steroids in lane and then he has a more robust and more powerful carry dive once farmed up in the midgame (not dependent on shield not breaking and then has ult to guarantee his survival). I think the crux of it is really that you underestimate how much more effective he can be during the midgame fights with solid AP items and high level vs. roaming items and low level. And on top of all that, in addition to being sorta like a regular lane dominator, he's also fucking ungankable and will pretty much 100% guarantee kills on friendly ganks even through summoners. I mean, the only shit I've seen give alistar trouble thus far has been really robust ranged attrition heros like Vlad and Nidalee. I guess time will tell though, it's only recently become a fad, so we might just be responding to it poorly atm.
EDIT: @ your EDIT, that's true but try laning Irelia/Xin/Jarman vs. Cow. He really beats those guys up in my experience. Early on it's like each Headbutt = 1/3 their HP and cannot be retaliated.
Solo cow has been around forever though, it's just become fotm right now, after his stun got nerfed. Gantz did it to us months ago, when he was actually a stronger laner because his stun lasted longer. He just does not stop proper solo heroes from reaching power levels, and I feel is doing fantastic job RIGHT NOW because people are too stubborn and stupid to acknowledge the presence of a farmed Alistar. Like, if you see a 200 creep stat Malzahar you'll see MR go up everywhere. You see a 200 creep stat Cow everyone will give him 0 respect and not build MR.
Edit: Oh no I can see Cow rolling those heroes, bear in mind that Amumu does too, so it doesn't surprise me that another hard tank rolls those ;p
My point was more that if you see, for instance, Ashe versus Irelia you'll see the Ashe player uber safe.
Whereas if you see Ashe vs Alistar you'll see the Ashe play really cheeky, get punished, and react (build-wise) really poorly.
It's the same phenomenon I see with Amumu. Like that Vlad I kept killing that other night, like he could not comprehend that I was kicking his ass even after he finished Revolver, kept going for me and dying. People in this game are stupid and have a lot of pride, and it can be really hard to accept that this new hero/strategy is actually stronger and better than you. I had the same issue with Kassadin against new hereos :x
I've played against and played as Solo Cow numerous times over the past ~6 months, and nothing in his repertoire really makes him "suddenly kick ass," people are just not giving him respect.
Edit2: To explain my Amumu point, you won't see Ashe take potshots at an Irelia. Maybe early, but not at like level 3. Because Ashe players understand that Irelia has the power in the lane, and there is no exchange to be had - once the Irelia bounces to the Ashe the Ashe is taking punishment. But I constantly see Ashe players autoattacking me even at level 5. They don't even punch through my 70 armor + hp regen, but they feel compelled to, and don't understand that the power level is entirely on my side, that they're not gonna stop me from farming, and that they're going to take creep damage that I enjoy seeing them take.
And remember, Amumu's harass damage is actually pitiful compared to most of the heroes I've listed in that other post. Why am I crushing these dumbasses? Because they play cheeky and don't give me respect, such that they let me whittle down their HP, and at level 6 Q R ignite dead. No respect.
(also no one builds MR when I'm farmed up, if you notice, lol)
On May 10 2011 02:45 Mogwai wrote: as much as I'm inclined to agree with you intellectually, experience has just been teaching me otherwise recently. Like, the double 1:1 AP ratio + double CC is like Sion on steroids in lane and then he has a more robust and more powerful carry dive once farmed up in the midgame (not dependent on shield not breaking and then has ult to guarantee his survival). I think the crux of it is really that you underestimate how much more effective he can be during the midgame fights with solid AP items and high level vs. roaming items and low level. And on top of all that, in addition to being sorta like a regular lane dominator, he's also fucking ungankable and will pretty much 100% guarantee kills on friendly ganks even through summoners.
It doesn't help that you can abuse headbutt+pulverize to have a 650 range lunge that CCs for 1.5 seconds while doing 50% the HP (or more) of anything squishy. The whole headbutt+pulverize thing is just bad design, imo. It wasn't so bad when it was just CC and basically no damage, but with the current AP FotM it takes off massive chunks of HP. In any event, they'll probably nerf his ratios and hopefully make his ult scale off a defensive stat so you get rid of godmode AP alistar that does 1.5k damage to a carry or support while having impunity to being gibbed or CC'd.
On May 10 2011 02:45 Mogwai wrote: as much as I'm inclined to agree with you intellectually, experience has just been teaching me otherwise recently. Like, the double 1:1 AP ratio + double CC is like Sion on steroids in lane and then he has a more robust and more powerful carry dive once farmed up in the midgame (not dependent on shield not breaking and then has ult to guarantee his survival). I think the crux of it is really that you underestimate how much more effective he can be during the midgame fights with solid AP items and high level vs. roaming items and low level. And on top of all that, in addition to being sorta like a regular lane dominator, he's also fucking ungankable and will pretty much 100% guarantee kills on friendly ganks even through summoners.
It doesn't help that you can abuse headbutt+pulverize to have a 650 range lunge that CCs for 1.5 seconds while doing 50% the HP (or more) of anything squishy. The whole headbutt+pulverize thing is just bad design, imo. It wasn't so bad when it was just CC and basically no damage, but with the current AP FotM it takes off massive chunks of HP. In any event, they'll probably nerf his ratios and hopefully make his ult scale off a defensive stat so you get rid of godmode AP alistar that does 1.5k damage to a carry or support while having impunity to being gibbed or CC'd.
If they do that Alistar will be another example of Riot's ability to destroy champ's playability. I have no idea why they even changed Alistar to begin with anyways...
The ironic thing is, AP Alistar was stronger before the change, what with 1:1 ratios on both Q and W. It's only recently when people have started to play him AP/play him at all.
i'd just like to point out that in addition to the often-mentioned headbutt+pulverize combo, there's the red-headed stepchild known as headbutt+autoattack. same concept, butt then autotattack, sends you hurtling towards the target, you maul the air, the guy flies back and takes headbutt+1 autoattack worth of damage. real crazy harass
On May 10 2011 02:45 Mogwai wrote: as much as I'm inclined to agree with you intellectually, experience has just been teaching me otherwise recently. Like, the double 1:1 AP ratio + double CC is like Sion on steroids in lane and then he has a more robust and more powerful carry dive once farmed up in the midgame (not dependent on shield not breaking and then has ult to guarantee his survival). I think the crux of it is really that you underestimate how much more effective he can be during the midgame fights with solid AP items and high level vs. roaming items and low level. And on top of all that, in addition to being sorta like a regular lane dominator, he's also fucking ungankable and will pretty much 100% guarantee kills on friendly ganks even through summoners.
It doesn't help that you can abuse headbutt+pulverize to have a 650 range lunge that CCs for 1.5 seconds while doing 50% the HP (or more) of anything squishy. The whole headbutt+pulverize thing is just bad design, imo. It wasn't so bad when it was just CC and basically no damage, but with the current AP FotM it takes off massive chunks of HP. In any event, they'll probably nerf his ratios and hopefully make his ult scale off a defensive stat so you get rid of godmode AP alistar that does 1.5k damage to a carry or support while having impunity to being gibbed or CC'd.
If they do that Alistar will be another example of Riot's ability to destroy champ's playability. I have no idea why they even changed Alistar to begin with anyways...
The ironic thing is, AP Alistar was stronger before the change, what with 1:1 ratios on both Q and W. It's only recently when people have started to play him AP/play him at all.
Nah, AP alistar is a lot better after the change. The .2 AP ratio nerf on Q is compensated for by the free trample time that you get from Q. So after the patch he's much better at farming and has far better cds at lvl 13. AP alistar before had massive down time in between each WQ combo in teamfights and the CD changes helped a lot.
On May 10 2011 12:42 nyxnyxnyx wrote: i'd just like to point out that in addition to the often-mentioned headbutt+pulverize combo, there's the red-headed stepchild known as headbutt+autoattack. same concept, butt then autotattack, sends you hurtling towards the target, you maul the air, the guy flies back and takes headbutt+1 autoattack worth of damage. real crazy harass
is it enough clicking them while you are flying towards them or is some precise timing required
depends on your latency / responsiveness or whatever. just experiment till u find a timing that works. for me i just W, leftclick and then rightclick. when ur practising it might help to use a sheen so the damage is a lot more obvious
On May 09 2011 06:19 iaeuy wrote: - If you headbutt and autoattack immediately you can get an attack off as they're being knocked back, meaning an early sheen is really strong.
On May 10 2011 16:41 nyxnyxnyx wrote: also wanna add on sheen with the headbutt+attack is crazy
On May 09 2011 06:19 iaeuy wrote: - If you headbutt and autoattack immediately you can get an attack off as they're being knocked back, meaning an early sheen is really strong.
being doing tank build my entire life. I get quick
tear of godess frozen heart's shield thing, 15% CDR red orb thing, 10% CDR With the 2 sources of CDR i get the full 40% damage (i scrape together 15% more with runes and masteries) reduction in battle. Now I proceed to build my AP items. I think it is very very powerful build as it is vital you get 2 cycles of headbutt/stun during a team fight.
I tend to max Q and E while ignoring W beyond lvl 1. I understand W does insane dmg but I really enjoy the farming power with trample along with pulv. To farm massive amount of creep you do this combo:
E, then walk around a little with trample Q
ALl the creeps should turn into gold.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That aside, today for the first time I tried roaming alistar....
oh yeahh... oh yeah btw for summoner spell I run clarvoyance and flash
Hi all // Been reading your forum a while and like the way things get discussed so would like to give my thoughts on THE Cow and hear opinions .
I like to play my Cow as tank / disruptor with 40% CDR as in my ELO games 4x squishy is not a oddity and I try my best to keep them all alive ….
Sumoners skills : same as OP's . Flash -> Q -> W -> Tower = WIN Masteries : same as OP's , CDR is a must and run speed helps a lot to position . 15% reduced Flash/Ghost decided many unforeseen encounters.
Runes : Reds: Armour Pen // Yellows: HP/ lvl // Blues:Mres/ lvl // Quints: 2 flat HP 1 Speed . Thought about MP/5 , but philo stone solved all my probs .
Item Build :
1. Open mana crystal + 2 HP pots I dislike to play Cow with small mana pool …. I want to be able to cast Q -> W -> E at LV3 2. B back to get philo stone Hp regen is nice / mp regen lets you spam E and keep both you and ally in lane / gold is cake 3. Boots -> Mercs/Mobility If team is doing good I get mobility to run around and set up ganks for team // if bad I go straight for mercs to prepare for long game. I don't get CDR boots as at start lvl's CD's are terrible even with 15% boost and by lvl18 I have 40% with other items. 4.Build mana crystal into Glacial shroud Mana , armor , CDR all perfect for Cow 5.Health crystal into Kindle Gem Hp works well with Cow's ult and CDR is core of my build 6.Negatron cloack Great boost to Mres and builds later in FoN ( If game goes on so long ) 7. Warmogs Hp works great with ult and saves me often as im quite reckless
8. This is how far I get in average game with most gold coming from assists . If game goes on I get Frozen H / FoN / Soul shroud
Skills
R>E>Q>W Exception LV1 I take Q and LV2 W , thou sometimes I even open with W as some ppl are so reckless they come next to your tower to taunt you and Cow responds with flash W into tower /creeps , works especially great if you ally has LV1 stun.
Rest of the game I rely on E + philo stone to keep me going till 10+ Lvl , as Q/W have crazy CD until maxed and I'm not doing AP Cow anyways .
Play style
Reckless , rush in enemy team or flash in then Q - > W some1 towards your team . If they pick a fight with cow -> R and either engage if your team successfully killed player you W'd to them or pop Ghost and run . If your team is caught out of position and low Hp , command all to run and stay behind with R and Q/W all who try to follow your team. Normal 5v5 try to Q as many as possible at once and then W some1 over forest or ledge to make it 4v5
Summary : Tank cow with 40% CDR , immortal with R , hard to kill without R, Low dmg , annoying as hell with Q/W on 40% CD and lets your team to pew pew enemy.
Looking forward your opinions . Made this post during work so it's a bit mess
Solo AP ali still very viable after patch, beats anyone except morde but he'd need to perma push the lane which basicly allows you to kill him non stop with jungle ganks anyway.
On May 27 2011 00:31 Senx wrote: Solo AP ali still very viable after patch, beats anyone except morde but he'd need to perma push the lane which basicly allows you to kill him non stop with jungle ganks anyway.
Insert more magic pen or defensive items if the game isn't over yet: Void/FoN/GA/BV
the problem is that you no longer scale like an AP carry so you're not gonna be 1 shotting squishies anymore and when that's the case it's hard to justify a solo on him.
On May 27 2011 00:31 Senx wrote: Solo AP ali still very viable after patch, beats anyone except morde but he'd need to perma push the lane which basicly allows you to kill him non stop with jungle ganks anyway.
Insert more magic pen or defensive items if the game isn't over yet: Void/FoN/GA/BV
the problem is that you no longer scale like an AP carry so you're not gonna be 1 shotting squishies anymore and when that's the case it's hard to justify a solo on him.
hmm I didnt have any issues destroying the enemy teams carries in a lategame ranked yesterday, 1 combo often got em down to 30-40% hp and then my teammates would finish em off or i'd do it myself once CDs were off.
You're still doing insane burst damage and heavy CC in team fights, you're also unkillable since your ult is often up every team fight.
Seriously.. Alistar has to be one of the very best team fighters in the game. How could you not take advantage of that and make him hurt as much as possible by giving him more farm?
On May 26 2011 23:39 NightWalks wrote: Hi all // Been reading your forum a while and like the way things get discussed so would like to give my thoughts on THE Cow and hear opinions .
I like to play my Cow as tank / disruptor with 40% CDR as in my ELO games 4x squishy is not a oddity and I try my best to keep them all alive ….
Sumoners skills : same as OP's . Flash -> Q -> W -> Tower = WIN Masteries : same as OP's , CDR is a must and run speed helps a lot to position . 15% reduced Flash/Ghost decided many unforeseen encounters.
Runes : Reds: Armour Pen // Yellows: HP/ lvl // Blues:Mres/ lvl // Quints: 2 flat HP 1 Speed . Thought about MP/5 , but philo stone solved all my probs .
Item Build :
1. Open mana crystal + 2 HP pots I dislike to play Cow with small mana pool …. I want to be able to cast Q -> W -> E at LV3 2. B back to get philo stone Hp regen is nice / mp regen lets you spam E and keep both you and ally in lane / gold is cake 3. Boots -> Mercs/Mobility If team is doing good I get mobility to run around and set up ganks for team // if bad I go straight for mercs to prepare for long game. I don't get CDR boots as at start lvl's CD's are terrible even with 15% boost and by lvl18 I have 40% with other items. 4.Build mana crystal into Glacial shroud Mana , armor , CDR all perfect for Cow 5.Health crystal into Kindle Gem Hp works well with Cow's ult and CDR is core of my build 6.Negatron cloack Great boost to Mres and builds later in FoN ( If game goes on so long ) 7. Warmogs Hp works great with ult and saves me often as im quite reckless
8. This is how far I get in average game with most gold coming from assists . If game goes on I get Frozen H / FoN / Soul shroud
Skills
R>E>Q>W Exception LV1 I take Q and LV2 W , thou sometimes I even open with W as some ppl are so reckless they come next to your tower to taunt you and Cow responds with flash W into tower /creeps , works especially great if you ally has LV1 stun.
Rest of the game I rely on E + philo stone to keep me going till 10+ Lvl , as Q/W have crazy CD until maxed and I'm not doing AP Cow anyways .
Play style
Reckless , rush in enemy team or flash in then Q - > W some1 towards your team . If they pick a fight with cow -> R and either engage if your team successfully killed player you W'd to them or pop Ghost and run . If your team is caught out of position and low Hp , command all to run and stay behind with R and Q/W all who try to follow your team. Normal 5v5 try to Q as many as possible at once and then W some1 over forest or ledge to make it 4v5
Summary : Tank cow with 40% CDR , immortal with R , hard to kill without R, Low dmg , annoying as hell with Q/W on 40% CD and lets your team to pew pew enemy.
Looking forward your opinions . Made this post during work so it's a bit mess
basically the same idea I'm doing as well. Is it a bad idea to get CDR runes? I'm over-shooting the CDR... I am capped 40% at kindlegem and glacial shround...
basically the same idea I'm doing as well. Is it a bad idea to get CDR runes? I'm over-shooting the CDR... I am capped 40% at kindlegem and glacial shround...
Glacial 15% + Kindle 10% + aprox 6% Runes + 6% utility = 37% You would cap with FrozenH 20%
Alistars starting CD's are crazy and no CDR will help agsint that , also you prefere sheen + extra mana with tear so by time you start to build CDR you are lv12+ .
Thus if you want CDR runes go for per lvl ones.
Question to all AP alistar fans : What do you do during teamfight after Q/W ? Why being stunbot isn't popular ? IMO , 40% CDR 150/150 Arm/Mres Alistar can toss the enemy team arround whole teamfight while chars like Annie , Brand , Ashe deal the real damage. It's more usefull then 1000Q 800W 200 auto attack ( unmitigated ) and then stand 6+ sec ......
On May 31 2011 00:03 NightWalks wrote: IMO , 40% CDR 150/150 Arm/Mres Alistar can toss the enemy team arround whole teamfight while chars like Annie , Brand , Ashe deal the real damage. It's more usefull then 1000Q 800W 200 auto attack ( unmitigated ) and then stand 6+ sec ......
That 2000 damage straight up pretty much insta-gibs a squishy carry straight up and with your ult you're still tanky. A dead carry straight away is a better outcome than a carry that gets CC-ed but is still alive. It also makes your harass scary in lane.
That 2000 damage straight up pretty much insta-gibs a squishy carry
That's 2k dmg if enemy has 0 Mres and 0 Arm . Thus you wount kill straight out , but yeah if it goes well their squish will either run or your mates will put the last nailin coffin
It also makes your harass scary in lane.
Agree to this . Early game cow doesn't benefit from CDR mutch and 6 sec ult is enough as enemy doesn't have yet insane burst or sustained dps through low CD's and thus Cow can opt to itemize offense aka AP + sheen. If early game goes well and thnx to killer cow enemy team is underlvld then yeah it's clear why AP was FOTM
I tried AP in single queue and it's fun , but i found myself melting when try to engage enemy team as without Ventrilo or Skype rest of my 4x dudes often hesitated to attack and my ult ran out and with no defence .... boom goes the cow .
With tank build i could atleast survive longer and CC 2x often to retreat or to keep enemy guys away from my dmg delears and when my dmg dealers are left alone they do more dmg then Cow.
I dont know where you are getting at. Carries dont build banshees etc after they have some carrie items else theyre not gonna hurt at all. Stunbot alistar has the same problem he had before: he can just be ignored and do no damage, be unkillable and throw people around but in that prospect he is just a blitzcrank without damage (not as effective in 1 shot but you need to hit 3 or more to not make bliz' better). And being AP alitar also have 1 huge advantage over stun bot: the threat of it. AP alistar does nuts damage so done right he can basically zone 2 people away from the teamfight and still kill 1 of them.
The engagement are lack of communications in your team that has nothing to do with ap alistars viabillity
That 2000 damage straight up pretty much insta-gibs a squishy carry
That's 2k dmg if enemy has 0 Mres and 0 Arm . Thus you wount kill straight out , but yeah if it goes well their squish will either run or your mates will put the last nailin coffin
Generally you'll want to go for the Range AD Carry. AP Carries build slightly more defensively on average since they have options like RoA and the like. Range AD Carries however are designed to have their damage scale almost completely on items. Take Ashe for example, the classic AD Range Carry. She gets Banshees, but generally as a late-game item after she's farmed 4-5 other damage items and boots. So you have a really long period of time where you can just insta-gib her.
Even once they get Banshees, if you team has any kind of poke you can just turn of Banshees and go in and instagib her anyway. Or wait for the fight to start, then go in an instagib. Even with the MRes from Banshees and her base MRes, she will still take nearly 60% damage (not including penetration). So you can burst her down to less than 40% hp in 2 seconds from your WQ. Once you then include the Lichbane proc and your passive, she's pretty much dead.
That 2000 damage straight up pretty much insta-gibs a squishy carry
That's 2k dmg if enemy has 0 Mres and 0 Arm . Thus you wount kill straight out , but yeah if it goes well their squish will either run or your mates will put the last nailin coffin
Generally you'll want to go for the Range AD Carry. AP Carries build slightly more defensively on average since they have options like RoA and the like. Range AD Carries however are designed to have their damage scale almost completely on items. Take Ashe for example, the classic AD Range Carry. She gets Banshees, but generally as a late-game item after she's farmed 4-5 other damage items and boots. So you have a really long period of time where you can just insta-gib her.
Actually if there is any threat of an insta-gib, the Banshee is going to come immediately after the IE, if not then after LW. You barely ever see anyone delaying it until they have their IE LW PD BT unless the enemy really has nothing that can burst.
On May 31 2011 21:51 MoonBear wrote: lplaythings pretty much summed it all up but I'll throw in some more specific answers.
On May 31 2011 14:40 NightWalks wrote:
That 2000 damage straight up pretty much insta-gibs a squishy carry
That's 2k dmg if enemy has 0 Mres and 0 Arm . Thus you wount kill straight out , but yeah if it goes well their squish will either run or your mates will put the last nailin coffin
Generally you'll want to go for the Range AD Carry. AP Carries build slightly more defensively on average since they have options like RoA and the like. Range AD Carries however are designed to have their damage scale almost completely on items. Take Ashe for example, the classic AD Range Carry. She gets Banshees, but generally as a late-game item after she's farmed 4-5 other damage items and boots. So you have a really long period of time where you can just insta-gib her.
Actually if there is any threat of an insta-gib, the Banshee is going to come immediately after the IE, if not then after LW. You barely ever see anyone delaying it until they have their IE LW PD BT unless the enemy really has nothing that can burst.
But then the ranged wont pose as much as threat as they did if they invested the banshee in a LW or PD. It makes the enemy team risk getting gibbed or having suboptimal damage. Either way AP alistar can also fill out the disrupting role if needed, not as good as CDR alistar but AP alistar isn't a one trick pony in any way.
I go boots -> filostone (1 or 2 depending of how the game is going) -> sheen -> brutaliser -> kindlegem -> ghostblade -> shurelia's revery -> ghostblade -> triforce you are extremely vulnerable to poke but you get the 40% cdr and you do serious (even masive with ult on) damge when your stuff is on cd. oh yeah for boots i like to go zerquer greaves if the game allows, but mobility and mercs are superior alot of times
been playing support style alistar lately, and feeling pretty awesome. ward, WQ combo, shurilas+frozenheart at 40% cdr, running around with boots of mobility
So alistaris basically my main champ nowadays because my friend will play blitz and that is honestly just OP bot, and I have gone towards a more bruisery, damage build, instead of tank. My friend told me to try it out and I thought it was awesome, but he told me rush T-Force, which is just so hard and a pretty fail build it seems. So I decided to come up with a different idea. How does this sound?
On February 08 2012 13:28 Juddas wrote: So alistaris basically my main champ nowadays because my friend will play blitz and that is honestly just OP bot, and I have gone towards a more bruisery, damage build, instead of tank. My friend told me to try it out and I thought it was awesome, but he told me rush T-Force, which is just so hard and a pretty fail build it seems. So I decided to come up with a different idea. How does this sound?
What masteries are you running? CD boots + tooth is 40% cdr. You get CDR in all 3 trees, so it seems like a bit of a waste going for 40% with items as well.
Oh well I was shooting for the 40 w/out masteries, but I suppose that is a bit of a waste. My friend and I were justr discussing this and he suggested something along the lines of
Tooth Warmogs Atmas ManaMune? CD boots/mobility/ greaves/treads Banshees
or Tiamit?! or even RoA in there somewhere.
For masteries im pretty sure i was going some fail 0/21/5 (only lvl 26 XD)
AD Alistar doesn't work too well because in team fights, you rarely have time to autoattack. Alistar's greatest strength is his ability to peel and cc, so between cooldowns, you should be repositioning. If you are laning with blitz, you can go philo+boots+sheen and that will be all the damage you need during the laning phase. After that I would stack aura items, maybe a frozen heart if you are taking farm.
Sorry to bump again, but I would really like to learn how to jungle with Ali. I always just end up crushing bot and then roam the whole game, so why not Jungle? Could you tell me your paths, runes, masteries and build please?>
I jungle Ali like I jungle Blitz. Start blue at level 1 (unless you get a team who's super willing to help wolves and blue) with boots and pots, hit 2 and level 2 gank. As long as you can WQ combo every time there's no reason not to be able to at the VERY least force a flash, but I'd say about 50% of the tie it ends up in a kill. The reason I mentioned Blitz is that they're similar in the sense that they have garbage clear times, and you're not going to able to justify jungling them unless you're doing it to gank early and often.
I usually tell my lanes to take as much of the jungle as they care to, and just control buff camps on my own, because if you don't you're very prone to being counterjungled. I know I don't use optimal runes or masteries for him because I just pick what'll help me gank more, so perhaps I won't be that helpful there (though if you want to know I use aspd marks, armor seals, mr/level glyphs, and movespeed quints with 21/0/9 masteries) but yeah, don't get caught up on making sure you hit every camp before ganking, as you really would be better off with almost any other jungler if you don't want to gank a shit ton.
I also jungle Alistar like I jungle Blitz, except I don't ever gank before I hit lvl 3. My route: Blue[smite] > Wolves > Wraiths > Golems[smite] > Bot or Mid gank. I open with boots + reds. If you want more details, feel free to drop me a PM.
On February 20 2012 05:27 Juddas wrote: Sorry to bump again, but I would really like to learn how to jungle with Ali. I always just end up crushing bot and then roam the whole game, so why not Jungle? Could you tell me your paths, runes, masteries and build please?>
Path: Usually Wolves -> Blue -> Wraiths -> Golems -> Red -> Wraiths
Blue really helps his initial clear time and it really hurts to lose it. To be honest, I don't really find that many teams willing to invade Alistar for his blue though, just because he is so strong in level 1 fights.
Skill order: Q first, always. E second, if you want to keep clearing the jungle. Otherwise, W and attempt a gank.
Starting build: Starting items are either Boot and 3 pots, or Regrowth and 1. Boots generally better for ganking and, if you get a decent pull on blue, are probably a quicker jungle clear.
Overall build: Philosopher's Stone, Heart of Gold and Boots of your choice. Can add an Avarice Blade or Kage's Lucky Pick if you want that extra GP5 because Alistar really isn't too item dependent. If you feel like you need to deal more damage in ganks or have some mana issues, then you can pick up a Sheen. Aegis and Shyrelias are useful pickups to help your team out. Afterwards, go for some premier tank items; Force of Nature and Randuins or Frozen Heart. Then, finish a Trinity Force.
Runes and Masteries: For me, it is entirely dependent on who I am jungling against. Shyvana/Udyr/Skarner/Mundo and other fast clear champions force you towards, in my opinion, less optimal builds just for the sake of not losing your entire jungle.
Against a slow enemy jungler I generally go Armor Reds and Yellows, MR per level Blues and Movespeed Quints then go 0-21-9 taking all the movespeed bonuses you can get.
This really enables Alistar to attempt some little tricks that other junglers can't really try. For example, these masteries give you the option of going behind midlane and just headbutting someone out from underneath it towards your midlaner.
I'm still not entirely happy with my build against stronger junglers; I don't feel that I get counter-jungled very hard, but, I just think that the overall route could be quicker.
At the moment, I'm using Attack Speed Reds, Armor Yellows, MR per level Blues and Ability Power Quints. Taking 9-21-0 for masteries. Taking the CDR and Magic Penetration in the Offense tree.
If you jungle alistar really any runes work... you might as well be using standard flat ad red/quints, armor yellow, mr blue, like you would on ranged carries or something. When you gank you should have boots so you should be able to get lots of autoattacks on your target so it is more useful than flat ap quints.
Mobility boots + shurelya's is huge on jungle Ali.
You don't ALWAYS need to engage WQ combo'd if you're fast enough. You can just run behind them, Q, then W knock them into your carry, or next to a wall if you have Vayne, etc. With enough movespeed you can get creative with W and not just use it as a gap-closer to Q.
On February 22 2012 00:56 RoieTRS wrote: If you jungle alistar really any runes work... you might as well be using standard flat ad red/quints, armor yellow, mr blue, like you would on ranged carries or something. When you gank you should have boots so you should be able to get lots of autoattacks on your target so it is more useful than flat ap quints.
Yeah. I don't have a lot of rune pages so I just pick my akali rune page because it's the only rune page that has some extra ms. Ultimately, it's all about the ganks and less about the jungle from my experience. I've even skimped out on getting red because I'm too lazy.
Now, just to clarify, I'm pretty bad, but I often do well as alistar regardless. Getting counter jungled sucks though. >.>
I find jungle Ali to be quite strong, with medium clear times and super strong ganks. I've found boots/3 to be almost imperative to start with in order to leave open the possibility of lots of early ganks, and Ali is strong enough not to need a defensive item to avoid getting too low. Wolves/blue seems almost unquestionably best, and I prefer QWQE. W is more helpful to clear times than E it seems at every camp besides wraiths, and it helps a lot more to stop counterjungling while your lanes react to what's happening.
E is more helpful later when you lose blue buff and get philo, because it allows a mana-efficient way to trigger your passive. The heal is kind of nice, but E's significance is really just to trigger passive, so I never level it until I need to (and if the game is still allowing for lots of clearing at level 14 and I'm low on mana, I sometimes choose to just level nothing temporarily).
Agree that mobility boots are really helpful. Tower diving gets a lot easier through their jungle with mobility boots gets easy because you get pretty far through the tower range before getting hit. I've also experimented with MS quints, but since I find starting boots to be so helpful I don't find them that helpful.
I'm interested in trying trinity on Ali because a lot of the time I end up with a Mallet and a bare sheen, but I don't generally find the extra damage that helpful and the guaranteed slow and tankiness seem so much better because you'll be autoattacking so infrequently. The zeal part seems really underwhelming because the attack speed and crit chance both seem pretty useless lategame.
I usually like aiming for Mobility Boots, Shurelia's, Randuin's, Mallet, Force of Nature, and Sheen, in an order completely dependent on the game. Interested in hearing other approaches to jungle Ali, because I think the options are relatively underexplored but very powerful.
Played jungle Ali last night in regulars around 1500ish ELO. Build was Philo's->Mobility->Sheen->Trinity->Shurelya->Situational (usually Frozen Heart/Banshees/Sunfire)
I have to say, having not cracked out jungle Ali in a while, I absolutely loved it. Every game I played had an opponent playing jungle Hecarim, who has retarded mobility, is pretty much impossible to kill, and is flat out overpowered midgame. That having been said, Alistar seems to have a nice kit for dealing with Hecarim's insane engage, and I often saved the lives of my carries by knocking that punk around.
Obviously Ali doesn't have anywhere near the damage of the popular jungles- Shyvana, Mundo, Udyr, Lee Sin, but mobility boots on him are just amazing for the amount of CC and funsies you can have with him.
Obviously building the tanky items are super important to do anything mid/late game. I really wanted more damage, as a few times on ganks only I was the only one able to pursue a fleeing opponent and just couldn't dps them enough, but CDR is probably much more important.
I have a question on support alistar; when do you buy boots? Usually on my first back I have just enough to straight up buy a philo stone and some wards (starting faerie charm, 3 wards, 2 pots). My second back (usually do to some aggressive plays) I can buy boots or start building HoG and I never really know if I should just go boots and delay HoG or rush for it then boots afterwards; Im not very experienced with supports, so having such a low gold income really screws with me :/
Also, after rushing reverie, how do you know what to build into? I usually go either aegis or start building randuins; aegis at the stage of the game you get it starts to seem like it falls off a bit, but it's obviously still good. Randuins is good for obvious reasons, but I just never know when to delay the randuins for an aegis or when to straight rush the randuins.
On July 14 2012 17:16 Arisen wrote: I have a question on support alistar; when do you buy boots? Usually on my first back I have just enough to straight up buy a philo stone and some wards (starting faerie charm, 3 wards, 2 pots). My second back (usually do to some aggressive plays) I can buy boots or start building HoG and I never really know if I should just go boots and delay HoG or rush for it then boots afterwards; Im not very experienced with supports, so having such a low gold income really screws with me :/
Also, after rushing reverie, how do you know what to build into? I usually go either aegis or start building randuins; aegis at the stage of the game you get it starts to seem like it falls off a bit, but it's obviously still good. Randuins is good for obvious reasons, but I just never know when to delay the randuins for an aegis or when to straight rush the randuins.
On alistar, you want boots ASAP. It should be your next item after finishing a philostone (philo>boots>HoG). You generally don't want randuins on a support alistar because even though he's tanky with his ultimate, it doesn't give him resists which is what randuins scales off of. It's also much more expensive than most other support oriented items. If no one builds an aegis, it's viable to build an aegis before your shurelya's since after the initial engage, aegis will do more than the shurelyas (CDR is awesome on alistar but so is living to see cooldowns come off again).
Generally, you want one big item (shurelya's/aegis), boots2 (or boots5 on ali), oracles if no one else is getting it, and then a second big item (shurelya's, aegis, zeke's) depending on your team composition.
I go jungle cow. Moovespeed is key so I go: hybrid pen reds (it actually works, offers the right pen for jungle creeps), armor yellows, mr/lvl blues, MS quints 0/21/9, focusing on Movespeed Open boots/3->mobos/philo/hog/money sword depending on gold (if I get FB it's usually mobos)->sheen->triforce (oracles somewhere inbetween)->upgrade gp/5->situational support/defensive items or infinity edge
On July 14 2012 17:16 Arisen wrote: I have a question on support alistar; when do you buy boots? Usually on my first back I have just enough to straight up buy a philo stone and some wards (starting faerie charm, 3 wards, 2 pots). My second back (usually do to some aggressive plays) I can buy boots or start building HoG and I never really know if I should just go boots and delay HoG or rush for it then boots afterwards; Im not very experienced with supports, so having such a low gold income really screws with me :/
Also, after rushing reverie, how do you know what to build into? I usually go either aegis or start building randuins; aegis at the stage of the game you get it starts to seem like it falls off a bit, but it's obviously still good. Randuins is good for obvious reasons, but I just never know when to delay the randuins for an aegis or when to straight rush the randuins.
I usually get boots right after Philostone; from my experience as support ali (and supports in general), I feel like getting boots early helps out a lot
On July 18 2012 09:35 Glenn313 wrote: I love jungling and supporting as Alistar. :D
Him and Blitz are the only supports I can truthfully say I have fun supporting with
So in other words you like killing people bot lane
I also assume you like to play trist
Try Leona.
It's interesting to see how Alistar used to be played so long ago, and then see how he's played now. Completely different. Did he get several nerfs or something?
On July 18 2012 09:35 Glenn313 wrote: I love jungling and supporting as Alistar. :D
Him and Blitz are the only supports I can truthfully say I have fun supporting with
So in other words you like killing people bot lane
I also assume you like to play trist
Try Leona.
It's interesting to see how Alistar used to be played so long ago, and then see how he's played now. Completely different. Did he get several nerfs or something?
yes. he got massive nerfs across the board. the fact that he's still a top tier pick now should give you an idea of how OP he used to be even though he went far under the radar for a long time.
When I started playing (late 2010), Alistar had higher base stats on everything but mana pool/regen, had 1.0 AP ratio and higher base damages on his Q and W (but his Q had slightly smaller radius, W couldn't target minions, and both had slightly longer cds), Q stunned for 1 second after your targets landed, his E costs half as much mana as it does now and had 0.4 AP ratio, his ulti reduced damage by 75% at all levels (leveling it scaled the duration from 6-8 rather than 7 sec at all levels), and his passive gave him 20-60% additional damage to turrets (which I liked better than his new passive 'cause AD or AP w/ lichbane Ali absolutely wrecked towers).
The only (imo) benefit of modern Ali over old Ali is that Ali now can jungle much more effectively than old Ali, which is definitely a plus since jungle Alistar has crazy ganks. But old Alistar could wreck a lot of solo lanes np and due to his ult could afford to build pure glass cannon and be okay.
On July 18 2012 08:43 101toss wrote: I go jungle cow. Moovespeed is key so I go: hybrid pen reds (it actually works, offers the right pen for jungle creeps), armor yellows, mr/lvl blues, MS quints 0/21/9, focusing on Movespeed Open boots/3->mobos/philo/hog/money sword depending on gold (if I get FB it's usually mobos)->sheen->triforce (oracles somewhere inbetween)->upgrade gp/5->situational support/defensive items or infinity edge
I've been doing the same but with Armor pen reds (dont have mix pen, not convinced it's worthwhile.)
boots 3pot -> Philo>hog>boots5 [oracle, situational] Glacial Shroud->FH + Shurelia in some order. Core I'd say is Frozen Heart, Shurelia, Aegis. If you somehow need a bit more damage a sheen isn't bad, neither is Ionic spark (spark>wits on cow imo), but I don't really feel you should be trying to bring the deeps as cow.
Not a fan of a third GP5 item, rather just rush to aegis because it will really help your team win a fight at dragon when your whole team outstats the enemy. If I really wanted a third gold item, it'd be Kage's rather than Avarice. Avarice brings very little, at least Kage's brings damage to your combo (and a bit for trample too, so wraith camp actually dies) and sustain for your team for poke wars.
If you have Enlightenment then FH+Shurelia caps your CDR, otherwise you can pick up randiuns eventually. Capped CDR is really important - it helps every aspect of what you bring for your team - massive amounts of CC + sustain for sieging towers/poke wars. Don't be afraid to let your team get into an extended poke war (especially if your support ALSO has a healing ability) using W to prevent hard engages and Q to punish overextension, rather than always going balls deep with WQ combos.
I am absolutely terrible at WQ, and I still feel I play jungle alistar well. When you're coming from the side for a gank rather than from the front, you can just W and walk a path that intercepts their escape route to get in range of a Q (Remember, W has a minisnare after they land.) Also, abuse those boots5 - you can delay a long time before initiating against champs who you outspeed, to make the most out of your boots5. Just remember that champs with a good movespeed steroid will still outrun you, and you play accordingly compared to champs with fixed-distance dashes (or flash up) or champs with no escapes.
The biggest issue on cow is actually FARMing your jungle. It's ideal if your mid can pick up wraiths often, and you just blow smite on big wolf as your main/only farm camp, as long as there are no objectives to take. Also I usually give red to top/bot at the third spawn and forward - sometimes the second spawn if the situation is right and they are playing a character that can abuse it.
Basically I go for an AP sion-esque build, focusing on ganking. Basically your standard dring stack/mobos/hat/lich bane build. Or is there some core item I am missing? Do I still focus on MS? Or use AP quints?
On July 23 2012 05:48 101toss wrote: Hey guys, need input on my mid-cow build: + Show Spoiler +
Basically I go for an AP sion-esque build, focusing on ganking. Basically your standard dring stack/mobos/hat/lich bane build. Or is there some core item I am missing? Do I still focus on MS? Or use AP quints?
I'd focus on movespeed still, but make sure you dont neglect farming either
I'm so bad with jungle cow, especially lately. I dunno wtf to do -_- I think I gank too much and fall way too far behind on farm. How do I fix this? I usually run boots5 and 2x GP10 core.
even when you don't get much farm Ali's still extremely strong as long as you don't fall to far behind in levels. his skills scale terribly with farm and his ulti gives him so much free EHP. all he really needs are levels for the cd and so his ulti gets much better.
IDK about not scaling with farm the one thing you really want to farm up is 40% CDR. If you thought 1 pulverize in a fight was scary, 2 within 8 seconds of each other is terrifying! Glacial + any of the Kindlegem upgrades basically covers that.
I dislike HoG in jungle cow I generally go boots 3 start, early ganks -> Philo -> Sheen -> Glacial -> Shurelyas -> Phage -> FH -> Triforce
With this build you have a ton of health (which is what ali wants,) 40% CDR (also what he wants,) tons of MS, Triforce + the free AD from alistars ult = your not useless after you use Q and W. This is my general outline normally if I get jungle cow (perma banned) I end game with Moboots, glacial, sheen and shurelyas. Games dont goo too late when every opponent lane is behind as fuck.
On July 14 2012 17:16 Arisen wrote: I have a question on support alistar; when do you buy boots? Usually on my first back I have just enough to straight up buy a philo stone and some wards (starting faerie charm, 3 wards, 2 pots). My second back (usually do to some aggressive plays) I can buy boots or start building HoG and I never really know if I should just go boots and delay HoG or rush for it then boots afterwards; Im not very experienced with supports, so having such a low gold income really screws with me :/
Also, after rushing reverie, how do you know what to build into? I usually go either aegis or start building randuins; aegis at the stage of the game you get it starts to seem like it falls off a bit, but it's obviously still good. Randuins is good for obvious reasons, but I just never know when to delay the randuins for an aegis or when to straight rush the randuins.
Depends how the lane is going. If I find my AD leaving me hanging to die often, I'll get boots after Philo. I'll usually get them after Heart of Gold.
EPT
))![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/86IDy.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Pjymx.png)
