EPTWhy even bother to do that?
and yes, by the time u upgrade the tear u would already have voidstaff and RoA, so AA is better
[Champion] Ryze - Page 11
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xiaoW
Netherlands284 Posts
Why even bother to do that? and yes, by the time u upgrade the tear u would already have voidstaff and RoA, so AA is better | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
0.3 ap ratio that can hit targets multiple times isn't THAT bad, also Ryze's cooldowns are short enough that increasing AP ratio isn't that awful, because he's recasting the spell in 2-3 seconds anyway. It ends up being the same reason that Starcall has an OK AP ratio at 0.4 Also, AA makes you a tower damage threat too. (AP turns into tower autoattack damage, and since you already have AP from RoA and Void staff, might as well stick with the 40% of AP route for +AD to towers.) Ryze isn't the greatest tower damage threat anyway because his autoattack range is pretty bad. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
a build finished build like Sorc's, AA, RoA, Tome of the Ancients, banshees, rylai's It's really riddicolous how much damage it is while still having descent tankiness with banshee / rylai and the spellvamp. Would prolly build frozen hearth instead of RoA if they had had more physical damage that game... who actually hurt me, Ryze's SLAY tryndamere's so fun. I dont advice doing this build if you dont look like you're gonna end the game like 20-4-19 but if you are, enjoy the fun :D | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8324 Posts
On September 20 2011 04:56 sylverfyre wrote: 0.3 ap ratio that can hit targets multiple times isn't THAT bad, also Ryze's cooldowns are short enough that increasing AP ratio isn't that awful, because he's recasting the spell in 2-3 seconds anyway. It ends up being the same reason that Starcall has an OK AP ratio at 0.4 Also, AA makes you a tower damage threat too. (AP turns into tower autoattack damage, and since you already have AP from RoA and Void staff, might as well stick with the 40% of AP route for +AD to towers.) Ryze isn't the greatest tower damage threat anyway because his autoattack range is pretty bad. I've been skipping the voidstaff and for my last item getting deathcap after I upgrade my tear to AA. Is that a good choice (it's been working out well in games where I start out doing decent, often gets me more AP than genuine AP characters actually. 3 % of 4.4k is a lot of AP, and that on top of 140 AP from Rabadon's and the AP gained from RoA means that the 30% buff from Rabadon's is working off of well over 300 AP. In short, I get over 500 AP by the end of the game with this build and still have 4.4k mana). | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2011 11:03 TheDougler wrote: I've been skipping the voidstaff and for my last item getting deathcap after I upgrade my tear to AA. Is that a good choice (it's been working out well in games where I start out doing decent, often gets me more AP than genuine AP characters actually. 3 % of 4.4k is a lot of AP, and that on top of 140 AP from Rabadon's and the AP gained from RoA means that the 30% buff from Rabadon's is working off of well over 300 AP. In short, I get over 500 AP by the end of the game with this build and still have 4.4k mana). More comparisons: Raw Q damage with no AP, and 4k mana: 460 damage Q damage vs 100 MR target, with no AP and 4k mana: 230 damage Q damage vs 60 MR target, with no AP, and 4k mana: 290 damage This means that even vs. 100 MR targets (a very small amount for the stage of the game we're talking--even squishies should be breaking this number easily), your DCap build needs to have 300 more AP in order to surpass Void Staff's damage (not even considering that Void Staff costs ~1.5k less than Deathcap). Against targets with more MR, the breakeven point is at even higher AP values, making it very unlikely for Deathcap to be superior to Void Staff. At the point in the game where you're buying your 6th item, NO ONE should have low enough MR for Deathcap to be better. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 20 2011 11:43 TheYango wrote: More comparisons: Raw Q damage with no AP, and 4k mana: 460 damage Q damage vs 100 MR target, with no AP and 4k mana: 230 damage Q damage vs 60 MR target, with no AP, and 4k mana: 290 damage This means that even vs. 100 MR targets (a very small amount for the stage of the game we're talking--even squishies should be breaking this number easily), your DCap build needs to have 300 more AP in order to surpass Void Staff's damage (not even considering that Void Staff costs ~1.5k less than Deathcap). Against targets with more MR, the breakeven point is at even higher AP values, making it very unlikely for Deathcap to be superior to Void Staff. At the point in the game where you're buying your 6th item, NO ONE should have low enough MR for Deathcap to be better. Yeah, 100 MR is like... sup i have 1 negatron and some MR/level runes. | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
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Holykitty
Netherlands246 Posts
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
W has a 0.6 to AP and 0.05 to mana E only has AP scaling 0.35 so for the main nuke, AP is really, really bad. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 27 2011 09:50 Holykitty wrote: does anyone know the AP ratio of ryze's main nuke? im curious if its ever worth buying ap items or if even slightly bad mana items are better It's 0.2. If you ever buy AP on Ryze, it's because that item gives you some other benefit that is far more significant than the AP gain, be it magic penetration (Void Staff), Spell Vamp and an aura (WotA), or survivability and utility (Rylai's). You generally do end up with 1 or more of these lategame, as there are only really 3 "core" mana items for you (BVeil, FHeart, Tear). | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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Holykitty
Netherlands246 Posts
On September 27 2011 10:07 TheYango wrote: It's 0.2. If you ever buy AP on Ryze, it's because that item gives you some other benefit that is far more significant than the AP gain, be it magic penetration (Void Staff), Spell Vamp and an aura (WotA), or survivability and utility (Rylai's). You generally do end up with 1 or more of these lategame, as there are only really 3 "core" mana items for you (BVeil, FHeart, Tear). you dont rate rod of ages then? | ||
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On September 27 2011 10:07 TheYango wrote: It's 0.2. If you ever buy AP on Ryze, it's because that item gives you some other benefit that is far more significant than the AP gain, be it magic penetration (Void Staff), Spell Vamp and an aura (WotA), or survivability and utility (Rylai's). You generally do end up with 1 or more of these lategame, as there are only really 3 "core" mana items for you (BVeil, FHeart, Tear). Considering how much Ryze can spam his spells the low AP ratio isnt quite as bad as it looks - since he casts his Q maybe 2 or 3 times as much as other casters use their spells the 0.2 will effectively be more like 0.4 or 0.6 (not counting splash from his R too). Im not saying to build for ability power rather than mana by any means, but the AP from RoA/Archangels/Void Staff is by no means wasted. Something I'm curious about - when a game starts to go really long and you finish all six items I know that its sometimes a good idea to sell your boots (eg swapping out zerker greaves for a phantom dancer or whatnot on an ad carry). Would it ever make sense to swap out the sorc boots on Ryze (or ap carries generally)? And for what? | ||
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Wayra
195 Posts
A typical end game build looks like this: Archangel staff, banshees veil, frozen heart, merc thread, 5th and 6th item: void staff/ROA/WOTA/Guardian angel/Warmogs Ryze has great sustain damage, and he naturally build tanky, so warmogs is good on ryze. He is not like typical mages, because he can keep doing damage and tank a lot of it. edit: I am talking about really long games. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On September 28 2011 10:04 Wayra wrote: it makes sense to swap out sorc boots for merc thread after getting void staff. A typical end game build looks like this: Archangel staff, banshees veil, frozen heart, merc thread, 5th and 6th item: void staff/ROA/WOTA/Guardian angel/Warmogs Ryze has great sustain damage, and he naturally build tanky, so warmogs is good on ryze. He is not like typical mages, because he can keep doing damage and tank a lot of it. edit: I am talking about really long games. no it doesnt, everyone has like 80 mr minimum at that point, sorc boots are still required | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2011 00:13 turdburgler wrote: no it doesnt, everyone has like 80 mr minimum at that point, sorc boots are still required The more MR people have, the less effective Sorcs becomes, particularly when Void Staff is in play, because Sorcs' flat penetration applies before Void Staff's 40% penentration. Early game, Sorcs takes peoples' MR from 20 down to 0, resulting in a 20% increase in damage--very significant. Comparing to a lategame case with Void Staff, assuming a 100 MR target: MR after Sorcs, Archaic Knowledge, and Void Staff: 40 MR (29% damage reduction) MR after just Archaic Knowledge and Void Staff: 50 MR (33% damage reduction) Meaning that Sorcs is only a 6% damage increase against a 100 MR target when you have Void Staff--still nice, but 35 Tenacity is probably better, particularly when 100 MR probably only accounts for the 1-2 squishiest members of the enemy team. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
yeah I dont get that. Roa scales so well on ryze. And to the AP discussion: 0.35 on E is a huge scaling depending on the situation. the 0.2 on Q isnt ignorable when because you get about 3+ Qs on one rotation which makes it 0.6+. 0.6 on W is only like 0.1 point below most ap scalings. Allways consider the cooldowns and attack rotation when you compare ratios. The only non-ap items you get on ryze are veil and shroud/heart. roa, aa, voidstaff, wota, rilays, abyssmal are all huge items on him. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2011 02:22 clickrush wrote: yeah I dont get that. Roa scales so well on ryze. And to the AP discussion: 0.35 on E is a huge scaling depending on the situation. the 0.2 on Q isnt ignorable when because you get about 3+ Qs on one rotation which makes it 0.6+. 0.6 on W is only like 0.1 point below most ap scalings. Allways consider the cooldowns and attack rotation when you compare ratios. The only non-ap items you get on ryze are veil and shroud/heart. roa, aa, voidstaff, wota, rilays, abyssmal are all huge items on him. Rod is situational. Sometimes you can afford getting it, and sometimes you absolutely need BVeil/Glacial right away. It's nice to have, but it's not core by any means. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
The worst thing you can do on a damage dealer is to buy too much survivability when your pressured or even behind because you will be even less threatening or in the worst case ignoreable. Defensive items on damage dealers are either there to solve specific problems (QSS/mercs/ninja tabi etc.) or are luxuries to get when you want to press your advantage, in the same way as offensive items are luxuries on tanks to press their advantage. Ryze does not provide enough besides damage to neglect damage. That said, iam totally aware of the fact that both items give you significant damage too, but they are not comparable to RoA in that manner. And I even dare to say that the additional HP and sustain RoA gives you makes up for a better chunk of the defensive stats that glacial/veil give. | ||
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