I bring you now the updated Ryze guide based on his recent rework. Think of this post as a compendium of TL disussions on how to play the new Ryze. I'll update as needed and continue to listen to input from others.
==
Formerly the Glass Cannon of LoL, Ryze is now a caster carry who gets his damage out of items that provide utility and tankiness for most champions. Ryze gets a two for one deal out of those items, and by late game with enough support from your team you should be a constant force.
Masteries
9 0 21 Standard Caster offensive masteries, and a focus on the utility masteries for mana and cooldowns. This is exactly the same as before.
Runes
Quints: Mana or MPL Marks: Spell Penetration Seals: Health or MP5 Glyphs: Mana or MPL
I've changed this so you can choose based on your preference or playstyle. I prefer the idea of flat mana instead of mpl for a better first few levels. I also prefer health seals to give me better survivability later on, but if you want MP5 and manage not to take much damage in lane yourself, your harassment will be better early on than usual.
Summoner Spells
Ghost - Good for both escaping and closing the gap on offense.
Flash - Ryze is still pretty weak, especially early game. This is good for escaping. Also good if you need to close the gap quickly for a W-Q combo to finish someone off.
Cleanse - You might want to consider this now too, especially if you don't trust your tanks and support to keep you from getting focused and destroyed in fights. I've had a few games lately against high CC teams where I got completely shut down and this would have helped.
Build Order
Don't start with E anymore because it sucks for harassment and farming now. I start with Q, which is now what I use for those things. Next I get W and then E. I alternate between leveling Q and W from here. I pick up R at lvl 6 but I've actually been maxing out Q and W before I pick up rank 2 of R. Lvl up E last because it's only used for its CDR with your passive and its MR reduction.
Items
Focus on things that give you mana. Don't even worry much about AP. Tanky items with mana are more beneficial to your overall game than mana items with AP. Mana scaling is good and AP scaling is bad on Ryze. He is so squishy that if you stack archangel's or something like that you won't have the survivability to do anything.
Sapphire Crystal - Start with this and 2 health pots.
Catalyst the Protector, Tear of the Godess - Pick these items up first along with tier 1 boots. What you build first should depend on how laning is going. If you're taking a lot of harassment go catalyst. If you are dominating then keep your advantage by getting an early start to mana stacking with tear.
Sorcerer's Shoes - Still need your magic pen to eat through standard MR. Finish these after the catalyst and tear.
Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart - What you build first is based on the game and what kind of damage the enemy team is mainly dishing out to you. You may even want to just build the glacial shroud and decide from there. Either way, the CDR given by frozen heart will put you at the 40% cap with your masteries.
Archangel's Staff - You can finish your tear into this now, as you should already be pretty tanky.
Void Staff - For teams stacking MR.
Lich Bane, Rylai's, Guardian Angel - For the last item slot it's kind of situational and based on personal preference. For more damage output go with the Lich Bane. If you want to really try to be the 'Ashe of magic' get the Rylai's, although I found its slow not to be very beneficial so I'm not sure if I like the item on the new Ryze. It gives no mana as well. Guardian angel if you want more survivability.
Rotation
Generally you just want to reap the benefits of your passive to lower cooldowns. Q-R-W-E-Q-Q-W-Q or something like that. The focus is no longer to start with the snare every time and launch a combo. You're basically spamming Q as much as possible and hoping to get multiple snares off in a fight if you can. The ult isn't really that important anymore as it currently stands. Sometimes I even save the snare so I can stop the advance of a champion who is a big threat.
General Overview and Playstyle
The first few levels will be tough. The mana cost on Q is a lot so you'll find yourself oom if you spam it too much. You can still use it wisely for harassment though. Try to last hit and even occasionally use Q for that purpose. I usually take a duel lane because I find that even with Ryze's new increased range there are still plenty of champions with better range who will go mid. I can't even remedy this by bouncing E off a minion anymore because it doesn't do much damage.
The good thing though is that the items you need for midgame damage are cheap as hell. You might be surprised how much of a presence you can be early-mid game armed only with a catalyst and tear. As you get these mana items you can begin to spam Q and be really annoying. In teamfights act like the standard carry and stand back while continually launching spells. You can do better sustained damage now, but far less burst. However, I find that when I'm chasing stragglers with low health I can play the same way as I did before, for example flashing in and unleasing a combo for the kill. This is honestly the only aspect of the new Ryze that is still fun for me since the playstyle has completely changed. You're no longer an assassin; you're only good on ganks if your snare helps your teammates work with you to bring someone down.
As you may know, the spell vamp on Ryze's ultimate is pretty much useless compared to the old AP boost; I no longer pop my ult really unless it's a teamfight and everyone is close, or I need that little bit of extra CDR to land a kill. I use it if there are a lot of minions around my kill target too. The AOE damage is reduced so you can't clear minion waves as well, but I find that I can still use it to this end and it works alright.
Again depending on your teamcomp you may get a lot of kills or rack up a lot of assists. I find that sometimes since I can no longer burst champs down, that my teammates get the kill after I've done most of the damage. A kill's a kill though, and it's not like you're getting snowball items anyway. As usual your lane pushing ability and tower killing skills are pretty bad so don't overextend without sufficient help.
Old post is below in spoiler box, for historical reference. + Show Spoiler +
Ryze - The Rogue Mage
I realize that I don't have many posts on TL, but I do lurk a lot and read the other guides/discussions. Ryze is my favorite champion, and really the only one for which I feel comfortable writing a guide. Mainly I just wanted to finally have a thread here to discuss the champion in case anyone else had some good input. I'm definitely open to other opinions on builds.
==
Ryze is known as the Glass Cannon of LoL; the mage that has the best burst damage in the game. However, if he isn't played smart he is easy to kill. He's one of the squishiest champions and has no innate escape abilities. This build embraces that fact and relies on the player to work off of his strengths and use common sense to compensate for his weaknesses.
Masteries
9 0 21 Standard Caster offensive masteries, and a focus on the utility masteries for mana and cooldowns.
Runes
Quints: Ability Power Marks: Spell Penetration Seals: Health Glyphs: Cooldown Reduction
Some people go for health quints but the idea behind this playstyle is that you position yourself where you won't take extra damage, and the items give you a decent amount of health anyway.
Summoner Spells
Ghost - Primary escape mechanism, also good to close the gap between you and the enemy for a snare.
Flash - Get this to play Ryze as the assassin he is supposed to be. I almost always use this offensively; many players think they are safely out of Ryze's limited range, only for me to flash in and nuke them to death before anyone can do anything about it. Can also provide another escape mechanism for Ryze which is nice since he doesn't have any to begin with.
Build Order
I always start with E because it's good for early harassment. I think Ryze is better off in a duel lane, and I love when champions stand too close together away from their minions. The bounce can take down both of their healths drastically even at level 1. Pick up W next for the snare and then Q, your nuke. After that I usually get one more point in E before level 6 to help with harassing and farming, after which I prioritize W and of course R whenever available. It's good to have the longer snare once the teamfights begin. Level E next and Q last. Although Q is Ryze's nuke, it scales better with mana than spell levels.
Items
Doran's Ring - I start with this because it gives me everything that is important to Ryze.
Rod of Ages - Health for more survivability, mana for better Q damage, and AP to hit harder with everything else. I usually rush this item first.
Sorcerer's Shoes - For the basic magic pen that is usually needed. I usually get the boots of speed while building rod of ages and finish this off shortly after I finish that.
Rylai's - A good amount of health as well as AP and a slow. By now you should have a good amount of health and you can even take some hits. The slow isnt good for single targets because you have the snare anyway, but the reason I like it is because if you pop your ult on grouped players in a teamfight, it slows everyone and helps your teammates finish off stragglers.
Deathcap - To vastly increase your damage for the late game. If you can cast freely and there isnt too much MR around you should be doing massive damage by now.
Void Staff or Abyssal Scepter - If there's a lot of MR being stacked on the opposing team. I'll get the void staff if there isnt much of an AP threat on their side and the scepter if there is.
Now it's just open to survivability items depending on what you're up against and how much you're being targeted. Banshee's is great because it'll give you mana too, Guardian Angel, or even a Zonya's if you'd like to go into a stasis until your cooldowns are up again.
No CD reduction? As has been said before on TL your masteries and runes alone with your passive and a blue buff will allow you to cast your spells really as much as you can. I only once picked up CD boots and this is when there was virtually no MR being stacked and the team was terrible.
General Overview and Playstyle
The difference between a good Ryze and a bad Ryze is positioning and timing. Most new Ryze players will either feed or rack up a lot of deaths to go with their kills, because they get caught in a bad spot and destroyed quickly. As a true assassin you want to strike quickly and efficiently and then get out.
Remember that your auto attack is weak. This is not to say "don't use it" though. You just have to know when it's safe to stick around and do so. There have been many times when I've nuked someone down to a sliver of life and just one or two auto attacks were needed afterwards to land the kill.
This is much more often the case going 1v1 than in a teamfight. If you think sticking around auto attacking after your nukes in a teamfight might be dangerous, just back off out of range until your cooldowns are up again. You aren't helping your team THAT much with the auto attacks, and 99% of the time it's more useful to instead go back in a few minutes later and know that you can help net another kill.
The basic game plan is to stay back and let your tanks initiate. Don't initate because you are getting impatient and you think you can nuke someone for a kill right away, unless it is certain that you can get the kill in one combo and the enemy team is far enough away that you can reposition yourself in back afterward. This judgement takes practice, but by now I frequently flash in and take someone out to give my team the advantage.
Your combo starts by snaring with W, then using R to turn on the AOE and extra AP, reduce magic resistance with E, and get the finishing blow with Q. Then go back in and hit the next target with W->E->Q. Don't worry about saving your ult most of the time because the cooldown is ridiculously short for an ult. I use it even on single targets because it increases my AP and kills nearby minions. Chances are I'll have it up again for the next fight.
Again, use judgement though. Your ult is situational. Sometimes you use it just to send someone back to base. Sometimes you'll need to clear minions quickly. The only time not to use it obviously is for example when the enemy Rammus is alone with full HP and a banshee's veil and your team isnt there. You won't get a gank so don't waste it. Also, in a teamfight wait to cast your spells until you know you'll hit someone meaningful. This is basic stuff we should all know.
Using this I usually do well whether I win or lose the game. Ryze can carry, but you will also notice that you may rack up assists like a support or tank. This is good and means that you're having a big effect on the teamfights as a whole while still having very good killing power.
I had been looking for a Ryze guide but haven't been able to find one. How come this link doesn't show up for me on either page of the LoL subforum? Are there other threads I'm missing? (I can't see a Fiddlesticks guide on either page...is there one that I'm missing?)
I had been looking for a Ryze guide but haven't been able to find one. How come this link doesn't show up for me on either page of the LoL subforum? Are there other threads I'm missing? (I can't see a Fiddlesticks guide on either page...is there one that I'm missing?)
Anyways, Thank you Woony & Frorgon!! Ryze Rocks!
You have to go the options and the bottom and change the date of the threads you can see (Under "Show"). Or just search the forums. No fiddle thread up atm.
I used to play Ryze a lot. I would start Catalyst, Tear, Boots, then ROA, then switch into kind of a tanky mode with Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart. He had good sustained damage even after his ult was up and was hard to kill with DPS alone.
Now, with the Rune Prison nerf and the Overload CDR buff, there's less reason to build a FH. But you should still be maxing out your CDR.
Also, cast your ult after you cast the first spell. Two of his spells have travel time, and one does DOT. Edit: to be clear, the most you give up doing this is one non-ulted tick of Rune Prison. This way your ult lasts a little longer and you get extra CDR.
I've watched Frorgon crawl from a baby noob to what he is today. At the very least I know his playstyle works.
Also, cast your ult after you cast the first spell. Two of his spells have travel time, and one does DOT. This way your ult lasts a little longer and you get extra CDR.
I can see the logic in that, but if you need the extra AP/nuking power I would definitely say activate the ult first.
So many new/repeat threads today though. I don't think I'm qualified to make up any thread except Urgot's....I wonder if BEAR has updated it recently?
Yeah I did forget to mention that I often cast the ult after the rune prison, especially later in the game. Earlier for ganks when I don't have rune prison leveled to 5 yet and I really only have one cd cycle to get the job done I'll generally go with the ult first for any extra damage I can squeeze. Also if there's no minions or other champs around I'll try to be close so I can maximize bounces of E off of myself to the gank target.
I think that point is worthy of a slight edit in the original post though.
Also I apologize, I was sure there wasn't another Ryze thread here and then realized that I had my setting to only show threads updated over the past 14 days.
On February 02 2011 04:31 WaveofShadow wrote: I've watched Frorgon crawl from a baby noob to what he is today. At the very least I know his playstyle works.
Also, cast your ult after you cast the first spell. Two of his spells have travel time, and one does DOT. This way your ult lasts a little longer and you get extra CDR.
I can see the logic in that, but if you need the extra AP/nuking power I would definitely say activate the ult first.
So many new/repeat threads today though. I don't think I'm qualified to make up any thread except Urgot's....I wonder if BEAR has updated it recently?
no1 has posted anything recently in my thread for me to update :[
On February 02 2011 04:31 WaveofShadow wrote: I've watched Frorgon crawl from a baby noob to what he is today. At the very least I know his playstyle works.
Also, cast your ult after you cast the first spell. Two of his spells have travel time, and one does DOT. This way your ult lasts a little longer and you get extra CDR.
I can see the logic in that, but if you need the extra AP/nuking power I would definitely say activate the ult first.
So many new/repeat threads today though. I don't think I'm qualified to make up any thread except Urgot's....I wonder if BEAR has updated it recently?
no1 has posted anything recently in my thread for me to update :[
I need to play a game with you...I have so much trouble carrying games. You gotta show me how to do eet! Most recently I was 4/0/5 with 1 inhib down and then we lost; I finished 7/4/5....sigh.
Also, cast your ult after you cast the first spell. Two of his spells have travel time, and one does DOT. This way your ult lasts a little longer and you get extra CDR.
I can see the logic in that, but if you need the extra AP/nuking power I would definitely say activate the ult first.
So many new/repeat threads today though. I don't think I'm qualified to make up any thread except Urgot's....I wonder if BEAR has updated it recently?
Well, your ult will apply the bonus AP when the spell lands (i.e. spelldamage is calculated when the spell hits) so if you do QR or ER, they'll gain the damage and splash as if you had ulted first. If you're really fast you can go EQR or something - that's 1 sec faster E AND Q.
also y'all haven't seen my super pro double cata before boots build. #1 Ryze, yo
I don't like Rylais. The slow isn't terribly valuable, and the other stats are overpriced. I'd just get RoA Banshee and Hourglass for your semi-survivability. (Double catalyst #1!)
Tank Ryze, or Tanky ryze... or whatever. I play him ALL the time, because it's actually TOO effective (imho) while being very relaxing to play. Things might probably change due to the new SoS nerf, but we'll see.
Mana crystal + 2 hp pots Tears of the Goddess Boots 1 2 more Mana crystals - Turn one into catalyst, the other into glacial shroud then build sorc boots, banshee's veil, frozen heart in whatever order you need.
This does not go AP. You get a ton of Mana (and a bunch of health) to throw massive Qs all the time with max CDR, 200 armor, 150 magic resist.
Anything after is just gravy, but normally I go Voidstaff, get archangel's then a needlessly large rod item.
For Masteries I run, 9 - 14 - 7 or something. Get the 15% Magic pen, 3 points in SoS and get all the mana in utility. What usually ends up happening is the whole team will try to rush for you, and you'll dish out 1 burst of damage before running back, tanking most of their hits, bursting another 3 times and laughing cause you're still alive. I've only ever seen 2 other Ryze builds like this, and each time I faced them I was scared (because I was doing the same). The only time this really failed me was when the other team went 4 beefy melee DPS.
Technically any champion can jungle but many just aren't made for it, Ryze being one of them. I'm sure you could, but it would be terribly slow to the point where it just isn't worth it. Fiddlesticks is the rare caster that can jungle because he has a self heal that also does decent damage. Ryze has no defensive skills or healing, auto attacks are weak, and spells dont hit hard enough at a low level for it to be effective.
Tank Ryze build is interesting, and I do see the merit to builds that value more survivability, but with my playstyle I never die anyway so it doesn't seem necessary. If I'm targeted I can usually flash out and get away. Of course there have been some annoying games in solo queue with either no tank, or a fail tank who is scared of initiating. The tanky build might solve that problem but then I'd be afraid I might not be able to carry as I usually would.
On February 03 2011 20:11 Frorgon wrote: Technically any champion can jungle but many just aren't made for it, Ryze being one of them. I'm sure you could, but it would be terribly slow to the point where it just isn't worth it. Fiddlesticks is the rare caster that can jungle because he has a self heal that also does decent damage. Ryze has no defensive skills or healing, auto attacks are weak, and spells dont hit hard enough at a low level for it to be effective.
Jungle Karthus is one of if not the fastest if I remember correctly.
Tank Ryze build is interesting, and I do see the merit to builds that value more survivability, but with my playstyle I never die anyway so it doesn't seem necessary. If I'm targeted I can usually flash out and get away. Of course there have been some annoying games in solo queue with either no tank, or a fail tank who is scared of initiating. The tanky build might solve that problem but then I'd be afraid I might not be able to carry as I usually would.
karthus could do it and do it pretty damn fast, but got low hp doing it, so he may not be able to do it anymore. idk about ryze, iirc loci said something in liquidparty about how jungle ryze is a looot harder now
Jungle Ryze's gank seems like it would be incredibly strong early game, especially with blue. I wonder how much he is gimped though by having to run odd masteries/runes/items.
I have decided we're trying this tonight. Perfect game to run lane teleport Eve.
On February 04 2011 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote: So how come you haven't carried us lately? XD
I have! My, you have a short memory!
And I suspect a jungle Ryze gank at lvl 3 or 4 would be very powerful, it's just a question of the speed at which that could be obtained. The good thing about it is that it could work as early as lvl 3 because by then the Ryze player would have all spells and as long as you do it after going back to base, a buff isnt required. I think lvl 3 could work but at 4 the Ryze player might be behind a bit.
Maybe I'll try it tonight to see just how slow it is. Afterall, nothing can be worse than our "all jungle gank squad" team.
What does everyone think of the patch preview and upcoming changes? I know it's tough to really tell what's going to happen until we try it out.
From first glance it seems like this might make Ryze a better champion overall and one you'd see more in higher levels of play than you currently do. Personally though I'm not sure how the changes will affect me. I've built my whole playstyle around the current setup and I find it to be fun. I worry the changes will make it so it won't be as fun and Ryze will no longer be an assassin.
For items it seems like due to the increased focus on mana scaling, archangel's staff will be my first item instead of rod of ages. The slow effect on rylai's for single targets might be more useful now due to shorter cooldowns, but it doesn't have mana on it either. Banshees Veil seems very attractive for a survivability item.
I think it's funny that their goal is to make Ryze the "Ashe of magic" when Ashe stands out among ranged AD carries because of her amazing CC/utility--and Ryze still falls behind other casters in CC by having only a single snare.
TBH that's always been my beef with Ryze. His damage is fine. His range is low but acceptable (Kennen and Morgana both are fine with needing to be up close to maximize their damage). His real problem has always been his lack of utility compared to other more commonly used casters.
Yeah the fact that Ashe can slow with each attack is nice, though with a Rylai's if the cooldowns are truly that low then Ryze can be as effective in that department. Also, imagine constant snares if rune prison has a much shorter cooldown. It will be much more useful.
Teamfights will be interesting, as the strategy now is to cast a combo and then run out because of Ryze's vulnerability. This has caused a lot of inexperienced players to yell at me for "not staying in and fighting." It gets really frustrating sometimes. Of course the reason for the rework was for this reason; players should want to be constantly involved in the fight. Lets hope the range increase is enough to keep the Ryze player safe during all of this though A lower cooldown snare should also help with this for any melee carry trying to close the gap.
So I tried out the new Ryze and my teammates gave me no support or protection so it was hard to judge if he is good or bad, but I gather this (it seems most of you have figured this out too):
His AP scaling is so bad that AP isn't even something to be concerned about. I just think of it as an added bonus I happen to get with Archangel's and RoA. The good news is that his mana scaling is good, and this in turn gives him survivability and damage for the price of one.
I started with a tear and then got a catalyst. After that I finished the RoA followed by the Archangel's. Somewhere in here too I got sorcerer's shoes. After this just build tanky. Frozen heart is the best choice unless you're taking a lot of magic damage, in which case banshee's first. Both items give mana to improve damage. With CDR glyphs the CDR from Frozen Heart is enough to max it out. At lvl 18 without including the passive, Q is at 2.1, and W and E are at 8.7 secs.
Keep stacking mana items after the FH and BV in most cases. I've found that things like Deathcap are worthless since you don't have much AP benefits anyway. Rylai's I felt was initially a decent idea but I found it to be pretty underwhelming and not worth it because it gives no mana. I'd stick with Ghost Flash for my summoner spells so I can catch stragglers and keep casting Q at them. I'll probably change my AP quints to mana quints. I'll probably update the guide soon when I'm more certain about all these things.
Spell Flux is pretty shitty now and I hope it gets a buff like mana scaling or something. Its once fun use is gone. Just use it now for the MR and CDR from your passive. I lvl it last and alternate between Q and W otherwise.
Early game is absolutely terrible. I find it very difficult to farm. Ryze is good late game with these items, but good luck farming for them. There are still loads of better carries that outrange me and have better harassment early on, thus preventing good farming from me. This is another thing that needs to be changed. Maybe at least a faster auto attack missile for last hits. E no longer farms for shit.
The ult is pretty useless too. Spell vamp isnt beneficial, especially since you're building tanky anyway. I'm hoping for a change that gives you max mana that boost Q and W equal to what the AP boost used to do for them.
Playstyle is to be annoying with Q and keep casting it. Assassin bursting is no longer really viable. You can keep casting spells in fights (mainly only Q) but you better hope your team can keep the other team off you. I got focused down hard in the game I played because my Rammus went in and instantly died. I find oddly that I need to play the same in teamfights even though I no longer have the burst. If I dont flash out after my first combo I usually get wrecked, except now I havent done too much hurt to them yet.
I hope they change the useless things because otherwise why even have them? He certainly has the ability to be effective in games but I'm not really a fan of the new playstyle. I find it monotonous; not the fun I used to have. Even if I'm doing well it's just boring.
I would figure his laning would be better since Q/E now outranges all autoattacks and non-skillshot nukes from anyone who's not Zilean, Kassadin, or Leblanc.
You can get 39% CDR just from frozen heart, lvl 5 q, and masteries. Seems they turned him into a tanky caster. AP just isn't really great on him but mana is. The spellvamp on his ult is retarded. You might burst for like 1k but that equates to 150 health from his combo and then your ult is basically over........
I agree with Tapioca. RoA isn't that great on him. Turn cata into a banshee's instead.
I found that Ryze chainguns a lot better if you are less concerned with hitting your utility skills and more concerned with getting more Qs out. That is, Q->R->Q->E->Q->W->Q (swap utility skills around as you feel). It's best with max CDR since that reduces the combo duration to 4.4 seconds. It makes sense since Q scales the best out of anything, you want to Q as much as possible as fast as possible. Any other kind of rotation sucks for you in terms of damage, there's just no point in W->E->Q since E magic reduction doesn't add as much damage as two more Qs do and the extra Qs reduce all your other cooldowns anyways.
I didn't understand why Shurelia said playtesters thought new Ryze might be OP until I tried this out. I'm surprised no one mentioned this new rotation before I did, honestly.
Pretty sure you have to open W as your first or second spell to actually hold someone down so you can machine gun them, plus rune prison is easily the spell you want to chain twice in a combo.
(Q) -> W -> Q -> R -> Q -> E -> Q -> Q -> W -> Q would be a very successful rotation for me.
And he absolutely HORRIBLY needs cleanse. The last thing you want is for some bitch sion disrupting the flow of your spells. Banshee helps with that, however, and ghost/flash also helps him a lot, so I am not sure what to change.
Well I figured that in a team fight you might not need to hold someone down first if your other teammates have cc, so R might be a good option for more AoE damage. But yeah that's probably the only situation I'd do that instead of W. If you can close the gap against the opponent by running at them though (ghost to initiate huehuehue) you might get that Q in before W to start the chain.
Tear first imo. I tried ryze last night, spamming my abilities as much as possible, and still couldnt fill the damn thing in a 35 minute game. 1000/4=250 spells you need to cast. Might as well get started early.
On February 18 2011 02:56 Two_DoWn wrote: Tear first imo. I tried ryze last night, spamming my abilities as much as possible, and still couldnt fill the damn thing in a 35 minute game. 1000/4=250 spells you need to cast. Might as well get started early.
Cata is too much of a godly laning item. On any champ that gets both, I don't see why you'd get Tear first. Absurd sustainability > a few extra Tear charges.
I want to run flat mana runes + mpen marks, get into lane and then just Q the other person all day for 90 damage a whack after mpen marks. If they have pots I'll use tele and come back to Q them forever again. If I go oom again before they die jungle should give me blue buff so I can continue to Q spam them until they rage quit.
On February 18 2011 03:47 Brees wrote: the new ryze seems really powerful from what ive seen so far. He's already starting to become FOTM
His laning is freaking annoying. It's pretty much pre-q-nerf pantheon imo. He literally q's you all day long with like 675 range, which is means his q harass keeps him at a pretty safe distance from counter harass.
On February 18 2011 03:47 Brees wrote: the new ryze seems really powerful from what ive seen so far. He's already starting to become FOTM
His laning is freaking annoying. It's pretty much pre-q-nerf pantheon imo. He literally q's you all day long with like 675 range, which is means his q harass keeps him at a pretty safe distance from counter harass.
Haven't played it, but I really can't see how a 70 mana cost spell that deals like 70 dmg at lvl 1 and like 100 at lvl 2 without counting mres can be even close to comparable to Panth's 100 dmg 30 mana cost harrass. =S
It really doesn't. A couple of pokes here and there to keep them at around 70-80% health so that junglers can threaten them, but other than that, ryze needs to focus on his own farming a lot more since he's completely dependent on his items.
On February 18 2011 05:11 TheYango wrote: Why not just run a mass MPen page? Seems generally more useful than flat mana runes.
Assuming 30 mres, at level 1 flat mana will do more damage and you have more Qs.
Full mpen page (red/blue/quints): 73 per Q, 500 mana means 7 Qs or 511damage (hardly enough to kill someone).
mpen reds flat mana blues/quints: 82 per Q, 700 mana means 10 Qs or 820 damage.
If you get the mpen mastery,
mpen page: 74 into 518 total mpen + flat mana: 86 into 860 total.
Heck if you wanted to run a full mana page with the mpen mastery you'd have 90 per Q, 12 Qs, 1080 damage. If all that is hitting the only thing that's going to stay in lane is Nidalee or rejuv bead + pots and then you have teleport for round 2.
Yeah it's troll and early dominance but if I had the IP it'd be tons of fun to fool around with.
I was checking profiles today, and I came across loci's. It's like all mana build with wota and void staff. I don't know his exact build so I tried something close, but it's really good. Gives you tankyness and q dmg with extra crap. I think it's something like cata into tier 1 boots, into tears, into tier 2 boots, into either frozen heart or banshees depending on team comp, into wota or void staff, into the one you didn't take, into archangels.
sxspp didn't like the new Ryze at first but he's still rolling faces with him. Stack mana, fuck AP. You need HP in the form of Banshee's and RoA it seems.
On February 18 2011 07:54 NeoIllusions wrote: sxspp didn't like the new Ryze at first but he's still rolling faces with him. Stack mana, fuck AP. You need HP in the form of Banshee's and RoA it seems.
I love new ryze. He is so much fun to play. I just have to figure out the order I want to build things in.
Given his core, I'm thinking that going cata-boots-tear will be pretty standard, then either getting bv if I need mr or skipping straight to glacial shroud if I need armor, or getting another cata if I can get away without either. After that, finish bv, heart and ROA, then going ahead and getting void staff or rylais.
Seems like a facerollfest to me. Yeah, those of us experienced with him know which spell orders work better, but just spamming spells works too. I don't like that.
I think some really good points were made about not necessarily needing to finish archangel's or RoA right off the bat. I should have seen this myself. The good thing about this is that you don't actually need too much farming early on because you can keep stacking all these cheap items. Then mid game after you've stacked up some kills you can finish them into tanky stuff as needed.
On February 18 2011 15:35 Two_DoWn wrote: Hey, I never said he wasn't completely and utterly wrong. Just that if you want to autoattack towers, manamune is the way to go.
"Originally Posted by patch 1.0.0.72 Bonus physical damage to turrets from AP expanded to also affect inhibitors and the nexus Increased the bonus damage to structures from AP to 40% from 25% " source: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=54504
On February 19 2011 02:21 Juicyfruit wrote: You have too much cdr with your setup.
I have been using magic pen everything with scaling hp yellows and it works just fine.
This seems like the best setup without some odd things like mana glyphs/quints. The most runed CDR I'd want is 1-2 flat CDR glyphs or 1 scaling CDR glyph. Maybe a little more if you want to go 0/9/21.
sxspp runs mpen/mp5pl/manapl/manapl on his build it seems, scaling mana blues hit par with flat by lvl 8 or so. Quints are 4.17mana/level, so that's pretty hefty too.
Loci runs the same, just replace scaling mana with flat.
Duly noted and the post has been changed to reflect that. I have to get used to having min/maxing in mind. With the CDR runes I can reach the cap with a 15% CDR item so obviously since frozen heart gives 20% you guys are right when you say to go with mana altogether.
I think if I had to choose between what sxspp is doing or what Loci is doing, I'd go with Loci's because I like to be stronger early game to set the table for later, though either one seems good. MP5 seals give crazy annoying harassment early on, but I still like health too.
Mana runes seems like the way to go, with them and Sapphire crystal you can completely deny almost anyone from level 1. Now I think its really important as ryze to start domination early, since if he's in even footing at lvl 7 vs a lvl 7 Irelia or something, he's just going to get crushed.
I personally would take flat mana over mana/lvl. Mana is such an accessible and cheap stat that scaling runes just don't compare to itemized mana. Flat mana gives you a significant early game boost that could possibly win you the lane.
Flat mana yellow/reds suck though, just saying. I'm not going to give up 8.5magic pen for 50 mana. I also think scaling HP yellows do wonder for how ryze is built (good magic res/armor, mediocre HP).
On February 19 2011 03:49 Juicyfruit wrote: Flat mana yellow/reds suck though, just saying. I'm not going to give up 8.5magic pen for 50 mana. I also think scaling HP yellows do wonder for how ryze is built (good magic res/armor, mediocre HP).
Flat mana quint/blues are sexy.
mp5 yellows red mpen imo.
The early mana for lvl 1 lane dominance is great, you can even get vlad to like 200 hp before hitting lvl 2 and then its already over.
Guhh the new Ryze is strange. Had a few games with him and they range from total domination (like I could 1v2 them after just spending 20 minutes in lane without any snowball items) to unbelievably one-sided defeat.
Some points worth noting: 1) Manamune isn't really an issue, I don't understand why everyone jumped on that bandwagon. Basically, you only upgrade your Tear when your other 5 slots are full of high-tier items, so it doesn't really matter and even then, 80-100 extra AD is probably better than some extra AP. 2) RUNES ARE EVERYTHING. I'm playing with a standard caster setup (MPen, MP5/18, MR, HP) and it's not really that good. At early levels your Q does moderate damage but you run out of mana so soon with the blue crystal opening (and you should never ever open anything else) that you don't exactly get to kill. I can imagine Ryze's early game with a full set of mana runes would be godly, but without them it is meh. 3) Ryze is incredibly snowball. He gets nearly nothing with levels, but gets so much with items which is like the opposite of what a caster usually is. Either you get a FB, some farm in lane, and get your tear/catalyst and go rape faces or you don't and you wander around still being the squishiest hero in the game with so-so sustained damage output and zero burst. 4) 40% CDR is a must. Your spells simply don't chain correctly without adequate amounts of CDR. So Frozen Heart is also a core item and your core becomes rather expensive. 5) Whenever you duo lane with Ryze, psychologically prepare to get kills. Farming in duo is generally harder than in solo, so you must kill to get your core. No matter what. This is like the most controversial point of the new Ryze - your sustained damage early on is nothing short of great, but you die so fast to burst that it isn't even fun, so actually doing great in a duo is freaking hard. 6) Soloing is a breeze and Ryze should probably be solo lane now. Rush catalyst and attempt to zone the opponent at levels 1-3 because from then on leveling is not in your favour. As said before, any hero gets more from experience than you, so you definitely don't want to stay on even footing with anyone. Fighting an attrition war with Ryze when both sides miss CS is not in your favor, so don't go overly aggressive even if you see an opening - you lose the lane just by not getting your farm.
Idk, i discover more and more things about him as I play, but I'm now almost 100% positive that you need a special runepage for him. Which is somewhat sad because only a few players can afford a runepage just to suit one champion (unfortunately, runes you desire are like totally useless on any other champion), so I guess we won't see Ryze that much. You like need 6300 IP for the page, 1350 for the champ and around 7500 IP for the runes which is way too expensive when you can just buy another AD snowballer for like 3150 and be fine with APen - MP5/18 - CDR page which everyone has. Standard caster runepages have little synergy with Ryze.
Flat mana glyphs can be useful on... jungle Udyr I believe, maybe jungle Maokai too?
Scaling mana reds/yellows (+21 at 18 per) are nearly as good as scaling mana blues (+26 at 18 per). My guess is scaling mana yellows are probably an ok alternative to mp5/l yellows.
mana glyphs were good on phoenix udyr, now that hes switched to tiger, u dont need the mana runes anymore. plus iirc u only wanted like 4 mana glyphs for 1 extra stancedance, not a full color.
Flat mana glyphs are good on just about every physical carry btw, with how the base mana regen was bumped up recently. I use them on 90% of my ranged DPS as well as pantheon, since they tend to have poor mana scaling in general, and you don't buy an early catalyst on them.
I pretty much agree with Bluz's assessment. There's no meh games anymore. There's no more games where I do well even if the team loses. It comes down to if my team is solid and can back me up, I do extremely well. But in that case I could probably play any damage dealing champion and win.
Then there are the games when my team is bad and can't back me up. Either the tank is inadequate, or something else isnt right. I get utterly destroyed. To avoid this before I used to go in and out bursting people down, trying to kill someone to turn the fight in our favor. Now if I want to do decent damage I have to pretty much stay in range, and if I don't have good teammates to back me up I get focused down like crazy. I'm even considering ghost/cleanse now for spells like you might do on Kassadin.
Now if I want to carry in solo queue I just play a carry and tank at the same time on Morde. Es #1 huehue
The rune page thing is really annoying. I used to use my Ryze rune page for a lot of AP champs, and even champs like Morde who benefit from magic pen. I don't want to buy another page, nor do I want to replace my AD page or jungle warwick page. I usually like choosing my champ based on team comp, but now I have to either commit to playing Ryze before the game or not playing him, because I change my AP page to put in all the mana runes. I'm not going to play Morde with mana runes obviously.
What do you guys think of the Expanded Mind mastery on Ryze? (+5% max mana @ 4/4 points, 2nd line in Utility tree). If you're gonna go 9/0/21, do you have enough points to squeeze that one in?
On March 13 2011 09:56 Zato-1 wrote: What do you guys think of the Expanded Mind mastery on Ryze? (+5% max mana @ 4/4 points, 2nd line in Utility tree). If you're gonna go 9/0/21, do you have enough points to squeeze that one in?
I'd like it if I could squeeze it in, but even with Ryze's mana synergy, it still seems like it's worse than virtually every other relevant mastery in the utility tree.
On March 13 2011 21:42 Iplaythings wrote: for runes I feel Id go Mpen reds & quints armor yellow, MR blue.
It just feels the most logical to me, though I dont have mathcraft to bring into it
Way off imo. Mpen reds, armor yellows, but blues and quints both flat mana. Much more early game damage and you have more staying power due to several extra spells.
On March 13 2011 21:42 Iplaythings wrote: for runes I feel Id go Mpen reds & quints armor yellow, MR blue.
It just feels the most logical to me, though I dont have mathcraft to bring into it
Way off imo. Mpen reds, armor yellows, but blues and quints both flat mana. Much more early game damage and you have more staying power due to several extra spells.
MPen reds are fine. Jiji uses MPen reds/quints + scaling mana yellows/blues.
On March 13 2011 21:42 Iplaythings wrote: for runes I feel Id go Mpen reds & quints armor yellow, MR blue.
It just feels the most logical to me, though I dont have mathcraft to bring into it
Way off imo. Mpen reds, armor yellows, but blues and quints both flat mana. Much more early game damage and you have more staying power due to several extra spells.
MPen reds are fine. Jiji uses MPen reds/quints + scaling mana yellows/blues.
His masteries are also 9/0/21.
Well my problem in the laning phase isnt my mana or damage, its my surviveabillity, maybe I am playing it wrong but I was demolished by a MF who played just a little aggressive.
I also feel tempted to run 9/21/0, just to improve that part of lane which i felt lacking
On March 13 2011 09:56 Zato-1 wrote: What do you guys think of the Expanded Mind mastery on Ryze? (+5% max mana @ 4/4 points, 2nd line in Utility tree). If you're gonna go 9/0/21, do you have enough points to squeeze that one in?
It only increases your base mana by 5% (see for instance this).
If you read the red post- it seems like they already fixed it so that it is max mana, considering that the post was 2 months ago and the toolkit wasn't changed.
On March 14 2011 10:22 Misder wrote: If you read the red post- it seems like they already fixed it so that it is max mana, considering that the post was 2 months ago and the toolkit wasn't changed.
The red post is from today.
edit: Updated today (one day later) that Expanded Mind is working as intended and the tooltip will be changed (see same topic).
Buff time on Ryze is kinda meh, he is a mediocre carrier for both. Blue is great if you can grab it before Glacial Shroud, but after you build it (which should be pretty early if you're doing well) just a blue pot will fetch you 40% CDR and you have no uses for mana regen as well.
How I play Ryze now:
9/0/21 if I'm ballsy, but I prefer 0/9/21 because SoS is too imbalanced. Summoners are Ghost/Flash, no exceptions. Ryze is slow as fuck, so he needs ghost just to nuke the right targets in a teamfight and flash is obvious. Runes: MPen reds Armor yellows Flat mana blues Flat mana quints
The reasoning behind such build is that Ryze is incredibly snowball. The difference between a Ryze that has Tear/Catalyst in early game and a Ryze that doesn't is tremendous. All he really needs is items, he doesn't even need to level up for anything other than extra HP. So all my runes and masteries go into early game (9/0/21 is more a late game build than early game). I don't own dodge yellows, but if I did I would probably get them instead because your core build already contains a lot of armor and dodge would be a nice addition to the mix.
Starting items: sapphire crystal and 2 health pots. With runes you will have slightly less than 750 mana at level 1 which is blasted great.
Lane choice:
Solo lane is preferred, best choice solo mid. Ryze has no innate way to restore health other than SoS, so you don't want to stay in the boring mess of solo top lane that you can't leave. Blue pilling from mid every now and then is required both for healing purposes and to get items. Every item you buy has great effect, a simple sapphire crystal gives you +20 damage on Q and +10 damage on W. However, Ryze can also dual lane pretty well because items are of more importance than levels (consider yourself a ranged DPS in terms of what you get from gold/exp, Ryze doesn't play like a caster in that regard). But make sure that your lanemate is a strong babysitter (your HP is paper) and doesn't farm at all because you need all that gold.
Item build:
No matter what, resist the temptation to go tear first. It's cheap, it gives much needed mana regen and it bolsters your damage, but consider this: you can cast a spell every 2 seconds, you will be able to charge your tear even if you build it late. There's like no need to rush it. So the first item you'd wanna get on Ryze is catalyst. It's infinitely better and with your ranged damage output you will be able to send someone to their fountain (quite possibly dead) in a timeframe of a single level up. It's nice to grab boots on your first b as well, but boots vs catalyst first is debatable. It depends on how is your lane going. If your enemy is already faster than you and gets boots as well, you are only limited to firing back when he chooses to harass you, so catalyst will be better. If the opposite is true and you are on equal speed with them and outrange them, then boots will win you the lane. However, don't go Sorcs first, catalyst is still better.
Your second item is Tear of the goddess, quite obviously. It gives you more damage than Sorc boots anyway (especially since its damage goes up every time you use a spell), so only build sorc boots if you really need that movespeed. They are however your next item once your tear is done.
Once you have your "small core" of catalyst, tear and sorcs, it's the first time in the game Ryze peaks. It's very important how soon in the game this happens. If it's late, you probably won't be a major threat throughout the whole game, if it's early, you will probably win the game outright, because if you have all that stuff around level 8-9, you can literally (no shit) 1v2 the dual lane.
The "large core" is Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart and Banshee's Veil, in no particular order. Once that is finished, your need for farm is greatly diminished and you have reached your second peak. Other items are great to have, but they won't be as efficient for their gold as those you've built. If you gain extra gold, spend it on wards/oracles and get things like Void Staff, Banshee's Veils (the spell shields won't stack, but the stats are great nevertheless, I've had games with 3x Banshee's Veils to shit on their casters) and any arbitrary tanking/support stuff (10% CDR aura on Soul Shroud will cap your CDR without blue pot, so will Shurelia's Reverie), hell, even another Frozen Heart would be viable (+50 damage on Q, +99 armor). AP items are trash on Ryze, so don't bother. As for the grade on Tear, both options are equally bad. Manamune might be a little better because of tower damage (you have no AP, remember?) but generally you only grade tear if you have literally nothing else to buy.
Skill order and chaining:
QWE at first 3 levels is a no-brainer, from then on it varies. Grading Q actually gives you very little short-term benefit, with marginal gains in damage and CDR you don't need until your Glacial Shroud is finished or until you somehow gain a blue buff. But if you find that you can only land Q's, definitely go for it. However, if your lane allows you to chain spells and the enemy has to get in range to do damage, level W first. It has better damage growth than Q and increased stun duration gives you much more utility in non-1v1 situations. No matter what, more points than one in E are only spent once everything else is maxed. Taking ult at level 6 is also good, you don't get to use the AoE much, but with the right creepwave, you just use it to heal like an Irelia.
There is one rule in chaining your spells: always Q first. Due to Ryze's passive once you use the other spells it will be available again almost instantly. When you don't have your CDR/ult, standard chaining order is almost instant QWEQ. W first only when you need that 0.3 seconds worth of casting time which is a very very rare occasion. Also, even though your E seems like a better choice for creep healing with your ultimate, it's not so Q first with creepwaves as well. Don't ever be hesitant to ult creeps because that extra health is more important than shitty AoE, spell vamp that is useless in a fight and 1 extra second of reduced cooldowns.
Later in the game, with 40% CDR your chaining changes to Q-?-Q-?-Q-?-Q, most likely QWQEQRQ, however, E first is more efficient if your target is not running away (reducing magic resist) and R first is theoretically more efficient if you can hit multiple targets but I don't think I've even ran into a situation where it was relevant. W first is the best bet because of the disable and the fact that that disable cools down very fast.
Also abuse the fact that you can be pretty brave in teamfights - unlike most casters, you can take a good beating before dying and you're like the best person to trade for a won teamfight because 0 extra AP and AD makes you the worst tower killer ever.
Guess that's it, it may lack depth, but Ryze imo is pretty straightforward, so this advice will work in most situations. One deviation from this might be Merc Treads (you're not a burst but sustained damage caster so the less time disabled the better) with an earlier rush to Void Staff.
On March 20 2011 00:27 locodoco wrote: really liking the tanky ap's right now swain is just so much fun,1 v 5 with blue buff ryze is probably one of the best casters in game right now in solo q,so much damage once u learn how to combo properly Q -> R -> W -> Q -> E -> Q and tanky as fuck too
Anyone else notice that Ryze FotM sort of died? Or is MM not putting me against the right people? Like, 2-3 weeks ago I would see tons of Ryzes, like 2 in each normal game, and FP in ranked. Now he's just... Gone from my games.
Max mana is obviously the go-to stat on Ryze, but I think BluzMan is being unnecessarily harsh on AP. Tear + boots + Banshee's + Frozen Heart make a lot of sense on Ryze, as does Void Staff. However, if the game goes longer than that, I'd get a bit more MRes on Merc Treads (you have void staff anyways so prolly won't need sorc shoes), then go for RoA and upgrade Tear into Archangel's- between those two items + Void Staff you'll have over 300 AP; while max mana is great for Q and nice for W, by late game you're also consistently using E, and AP will help out your initial AoE burst significantly because it affects all of your spells, not just the sustained DPS output from Q.
Just had a game where I was absolutely stomping. I started Mana chrystal and 2 HP pots. After I got Catalyst, then Tear, then sorc boots. Afterwards I build Banshee's veil and Frozen Heart.
I feel lost after this, though. Archangels is pretty nice, but crazy expensive for the stats too, it seems. What are good items to pick up against balanced comps after sorc/bveil/tear? And what are good items to pick up against melee/magic heavy teams?
Do you guys like Rylai's after a bit of feed? Also, does Ryze stomp Vlad super hard on mid, or am I just l33t?
On March 30 2011 03:14 BouBou.865 wrote: Just had a game where I was absolutely stomping. I started Mana chrystal and 2 HP pots. After I got Catalyst, then Tear, then sorc boots. Afterwards I build Banshee's veil and Frozen Heart.
I feel lost after this, though. Archangels is pretty nice, but crazy expensive for the stats too, it seems. What are good items to pick up against balanced comps after sorc/bveil/tear? And what are good items to pick up against melee/magic heavy teams?
Do you guys like Rylai's after a bit of feed? Also, does Ryze stomp Vlad super hard on mid, or am I just l33t?
If you're carrying super-hard and can afford to skip the early BVeil, turn your first Cata into Rod of Ages. It makes you squishier in the short-term but pans out into more beefiness/damage in the long run.
Void Staff is a must late-game against enemies with enough MR. Your last slot is going to be a survivability item tailored toward the team you're against.
Thanks Yango. Just looking through the masteries I came up with a plan of genius (hopefully). How about a 9/9/12 set-up? You take Magic Pen, SoS, experience and the expanded mind mastery. I don't see how the 15% cdr on your summoners is that much more baller than SoS/Mpen.
On March 30 2011 03:25 BouBou.865 wrote: Thanks Yango. Just looking through the masteries I came up with a plan of genius (hopefully). How about a 9/9/12 set-up? You take Magic Pen, SoS, experience and the expanded mind mastery. I don't see how the 15% cdr on your summoners is that much more baller than SoS/Mpen.
Any thoughts?
15% Summoner CDR isn't all that you're ditching. You also lose:
1 mp5 3% Movespeed Flash mastery 6% CDR
All of those plus 15% Summoner CDR is probably better than SoS + 6 Armor + 6 MR. Especially since losing 6% CDR suddenly makes it so that Q passive + Frozen Heart don't perfectly cap you, meaning that you have a 6% CDR hole that you actually have to bother figuring out how to fill.
EDIT: And yeah, even if you want SoS, 9/7/14 is going to be better than 9/9/12.
On SoS in general, I think people often over-value it. In terms of gold value, it's a lot of gold value for a champ that spend a lot on building mana, but you have to think about what it actually DOES for you. Hp5 is an extremely weak stat after the laning phase is over--if you're getting SoS, it should be on a champ that needs the help during the laning phase (which I don't think Ryze is), because having a ton of Hp5 doesn't really do you much during teamfights.
On March 30 2011 03:25 BouBou.865 wrote: Thanks Yango. Just looking through the masteries I came up with a plan of genius (hopefully). How about a 9/9/12 set-up? You take Magic Pen, SoS, experience and the expanded mind mastery. I don't see how the 15% cdr on your summoners is that much more baller than SoS/Mpen.
Any thoughts?
15% Summoner CDR isn't all that you're ditching. You also lose:
1 mp5 3% Movespeed Flash mastery 6% CDR
All of those plus 15% Summoner CDR is probably better than SoS + 6 Armor + 6 MR. Especially since losing 6% CDR suddenly makes it so that Q passive + Frozen Heart don't perfectly cap you, meaning that you have a 6% CDR hole that you actually have to bother figuring out how to fill.
EDIT: And yeah, even if you want SoS, 9/7/14 is going to be better than 9/9/12.
Err, wouldn't it be worth taking Expanded mind over Greed/buff duration/Meditation? Ryze gains so little from Blue buff.
Also, I am currently level 27. Is it better to go 9/0/X, or X/0/21?
All of those plus 15% Summoner CDR is probably better than SoS + 6 Armor + 6 MR. Especially since losing 6% CDR suddenly makes it so that Q passive + Frozen Heart don't perfectly cap you, meaning that you have a 6% CDR hole that you actually have to bother figuring out how to fill.
Wait. 6+10+20 doesn't make 40% CDR. How come you talk about being perfectly capped?
6% (utility tree) +3% (offense tree) +10% (what i assume is the Q passive) +20% (frozen heart) = 39%
If you're anal about it you can get the 1% that's left from runes (a single scaling cdr blue probably better than trying to get 2 flat cdr blue in there).
What should your position be with Ryze? Like what's the ideal position to be when a fight occurs. I am guessing behind the tanks (wild guess), but a bit before the ranged carries? Or at same distance?
Your snare is 625 range. Your huge nuke is 675 range.
So close enough to use those, but far enough to avoid getting hit in the face with nasty things. (Ryze is a bit tankier than most casters, so you can absorb a little damage, but you still need to watch out.)
I run ghost/flash. I've never tried ignite/flash and I should, but I think ghost/flash evens out because Q is in such a low cooldown that ghosting and Q will be able to secure a kill like ignite will, except not as true damage, but ghost also acts as an escape tool and positioning, which I feel on Ryze is very helpful because you are sustained dmg.
On April 02 2011 11:37 Misder wrote: I run ghost/flash. I've never tried ignite/flash and I should, but I think ghost/flash evens out because Q is in such a low cooldown that ghosting and Q will be able to secure a kill like ignite will, except not as true damage, but ghost also acts as an escape tool and positioning, which I feel on Ryze is very helpful because you are sustained dmg.
Basically this, IMO.
You can take Ignite if your team needs an Ignite (e.g. vs someone like Irelia), but for normal needs, you're not quite like a burst caster that needs Ignite to augment their burst damage--having Ghost will probably net you an extra Q anyway given how low-CD it is, and also has added versatility.
On April 03 2011 17:49 BouBou.865 wrote: How do you go about Ryze vs Karthus in mid? His Q is free, just like marines, and his range is bigger than yours. Pray for a jungle gank?
Also, should Ryze go mid? I remember a very good player saying he should take solo mid (MagicFingers..?) but the OP says he should take a duo.
He can defnitly take a solo mid, he is just worse off when people trade hits with him, than when he is just farming (so I dont know why dou was recommended lol)
Ryze is a pretty strong solo-mid but i generally find that against a small group of champions he is just utterly worthless and will without a doubt get completly smashed off the lane.
Most of the champions that really fuck up his game are the ones that straight up outrange him. Skillshots like the Ezreal Q are not that bad because you can block those with minions. The problem is champs with long range skills that bypass minion lanes.
A good Karthus will never ever lose to a Ryze, even if it's the best damn Ryze in the world. Ryze cannot lay a finger on him because just attempting to get in range means getting massively nuked, something Ryze does not deal well with.
The worst champ you can possibly face (imo) is Caitlyn. Holy shit does Ryze get his ass handed to him hard by this long range physical DPS. If you catch a Q to the face you can say goodbye to 30% of your HP, and she will be spamming it all day long.
Ryze does however crushes a lot of other mid's. His damage output is huge and even from early levels a Q-W-Q is very likely to pull off.
The low CD on Q is also a very powerfull tool. A veigar Q starts out at something like 8+ seconds CD i believe. A lot of single target skills have long CD's compared to the Ryze Q.
If you have a feel for most CD's you start to realize that when a harass takes place you can just stalk the enemy and land 1-2 Q's on them before their skill is even ready to fire back.
So Ryze is a strong mid but he gets completly shut down against very specific champs and if you think one of those is gonna be mid (karthus is a dead give away) you need to go on a side lane or you are done for.
Karthus is especially painfull because you need to put up a good fight against him or he farms his ass off.
I've been playing Ryze alot the last few days and loving it, however I've gotten crushed by decent Caits / Karth / Anivia, from what I've read in this thread theres not a whole lot I can do about Cait/ Karth, but anything I should know about laning against the bird?
also any other matchups Ryze gets crushed in that I just haven't experienced?
On April 04 2011 05:40 Amable wrote: I've been playing Ryze alot the last few days and loving it, however I've gotten crushed by decent Caits / Karth / Anivia, from what I've read in this thread theres not a whole lot I can do about Cait/ Karth, but anything I should know about laning against the bird?
also any other matchups Ryze gets crushed in that I just haven't experienced?
Probably Urgot but it's a skill MU, meaning that it can be won if you just play better. However, playing vs Urgot generally requires faster boots so you're not rushing catalyst just as fast. Ignite ezreal might also be a problem, but he just kills everyone at levels 2-3. LeBlanc I dunno, but judging from everything she should own Ryze in solo (I never lanes vs LB as Ryze, but I did lane as LB vs Ryze and it was a rape fest). Generally, strong laners are as strong vs you as everyone, Ryze doesn't have the subtlety in a solo lane, he either outdamages/outranges or he doesn't, there ain't any kind of a magical trick that will save you in hard lanes.
Also, a properly runed Cho'Gath might have a chance. Lol he will heal faster than you harass him out of the lane and it will feel very bad.
On April 04 2011 05:40 Amable wrote: I've been playing Ryze alot the last few days and loving it, however I've gotten crushed by decent Caits / Karth / Anivia, from what I've read in this thread theres not a whole lot I can do about Cait/ Karth, but anything I should know about laning against the bird?
also any other matchups Ryze gets crushed in that I just haven't experienced?
You destroy the bird before lvl 6 so try to force her off the lane 1-2 times and maybe kill her before she's 6. After Anivia is 6 she destroys every lane.
Vs cait you just need to evade Q and you can beat her. Karthus also isn't that difficult if you evade Q but it's not too easy.
On April 04 2011 07:04 Juicyfruit wrote: If you run flat mana glyphs and quints you can win a lot of these lanes before hitting level 2, lol
How does the +15 damage on your Q help that much?
It's +20 and it's 3 more Q's to cast from your initial manapool. Actually, wtf, 15 damage on a 3 sec CD skill is a huge improvement, what are you talking about?
On April 04 2011 07:04 Juicyfruit wrote: If you run flat mana glyphs and quints you can win a lot of these lanes before hitting level 2, lol
How does the +15 damage on your Q help that much?
It's +20 and it's 3 more Q's to cast from your initial manapool. Actually, wtf, 15 damage on a 3 sec CD skill is a huge improvement, what are you talking about?
What I mean is that versus all the hard match ups you are having serious trouble getting even a single Q in. Hence, it's better to run mana/lvl because you won't be able to use this damage boost early on anyways.
Against matchups where you can Q to hearts' content you don't really need the flat mana runes. Could be completely wrong though.
On April 04 2011 07:04 Juicyfruit wrote: If you run flat mana glyphs and quints you can win a lot of these lanes before hitting level 2, lol
How does the +15 damage on your Q help that much?
It's +20 and it's 3 more Q's to cast from your initial manapool. Actually, wtf, 15 damage on a 3 sec CD skill is a huge improvement, what are you talking about?
What I mean is that versus all the hard match ups you are having serious trouble getting even a single Q in. Hence, it's better to run mana/lvl because you won't be able to use this damage boost early on anyways.
Against matchups where you can Q to hearts' content you don't really need the flat mana runes. Could be completely wrong though.
Q outranges every other non-skillshot nuke, afaik. It's very difficult to find a MU where Ryze can't Q at all. In most situations, you will be at the very least be able to trade, not always to your benefit, though. But imo you just shouldn't pick Ryze if you can't abuse his early game, he peaks like very early and has immense snowballing, I don't think you should ever pick him if you're aiming exclusively for late game.
On April 04 2011 17:27 BluzMan wrote: Q outranges every other non-skillshot nuke, afaik. It's very difficult to find a MU where Ryze can't Q at all. In most situations, you will be at the very least be able to trade, not always to your benefit, though. But imo you just shouldn't pick Ryze if you can't abuse his early game, he peaks like very early and has immense snowballing, I don't think you should ever pick him if you're aiming exclusively for late game.
Null Sphere, Sigil of Silence, Blinding Dart, and Time Bomb all have 700 range while Ryze's Q only has 675 range.
Additionally, some AoEs like Phosphorus Bomb can be placed to hit targets 675+ range away.
Q outranges every other non-skillshot nuke, afaik. It's very difficult to find a MU where Ryze can't Q at all. In most situations, you will be at the very least be able to trade, not always to your benefit, though. But imo you just shouldn't pick Ryze if you can't abuse his early game, he peaks like very early and has immense snowballing, I don't think you should ever pick him if you're aiming exclusively for late game.
I just don't get this. When i play Ryze i always make him work.
People say he's only usefull early and if he snowballs but there are plenty of times when i get back with just minion farm and i never feel like his damage is at a point where killing is nearly impossible, something that many other casters do have.
I feel Ryze is a great caster from start to finish, but a proper rune settup decides a lot.
On April 04 2011 21:17 zalz wrote: People say he's only usefull early and if he snowballs
This is 100% bullshit. He deals lots of damage from a high range, reduces the MRes of all enemies, has a high range instant root on a low cooldown. His item build makes him quite tanky and isn't even terribly hard to farm up. Lategame Ryze is a beast.
On April 04 2011 17:27 BluzMan wrote: Q outranges every other non-skillshot nuke, afaik. It's very difficult to find a MU where Ryze can't Q at all. In most situations, you will be at the very least be able to trade, not always to your benefit, though. But imo you just shouldn't pick Ryze if you can't abuse his early game, he peaks like very early and has immense snowballing, I don't think you should ever pick him if you're aiming exclusively for late game.
Null Sphere, Sigil of Silence, Blinding Dart, and Time Bomb all have 700 range while Ryze's Q only has 675 range.
Additionally, some AoEs like Phosphorus Bomb can be placed to hit targets 675+ range away.
90% of the time, will will be able to at least Q the dude back. (then root + Q again)
On April 04 2011 17:27 BluzMan wrote: Q outranges every other non-skillshot nuke, afaik. It's very difficult to find a MU where Ryze can't Q at all. In most situations, you will be at the very least be able to trade, not always to your benefit, though. But imo you just shouldn't pick Ryze if you can't abuse his early game, he peaks like very early and has immense snowballing, I don't think you should ever pick him if you're aiming exclusively for late game.
Null Sphere, Sigil of Silence, Blinding Dart, and Time Bomb all have 700 range while Ryze's Q only has 675 range.
Additionally, some AoEs like Phosphorus Bomb can be placed to hit targets 675+ range away.
90% of the time, will will be able to at least Q the dude back. (then root + Q again)
Wrong. In ranged lanes you will often Q, but very rarely W (and therefore QWQ). The difference in range is not large by numbers, but it's actually huge by gameplay.
On April 04 2011 17:27 BluzMan wrote: Q outranges every other non-skillshot nuke, afaik. It's very difficult to find a MU where Ryze can't Q at all. In most situations, you will be at the very least be able to trade, not always to your benefit, though. But imo you just shouldn't pick Ryze if you can't abuse his early game, he peaks like very early and has immense snowballing, I don't think you should ever pick him if you're aiming exclusively for late game.
Null Sphere, Sigil of Silence, Blinding Dart, and Time Bomb all have 700 range while Ryze's Q only has 675 range.
Additionally, some AoEs like Phosphorus Bomb can be placed to hit targets 675+ range away.
90% of the time, will will be able to at least Q the dude back. (then root + Q again)
Wrong. In ranged lanes you will often Q, but very rarely W (and therefore QWQ). The difference in range is not large by numbers, but it's actually huge by gameplay.
His Q animation is actually very short and in a lot of cases you can actually land the W soon after if the enemy has decided to harass back.
If you Q and the enemy does an atack back, you can W him without fail every time. (Given that it's a click-skill with your average range).
On April 05 2011 00:03 zalz wrote: His Q animation is actually very short and in a lot of cases you can actually land the W soon after if the enemy has decided to harass back.
If you Q and the enemy does an atack back, you can W him without fail every time. (Given that it's a click-skill with your average range).
75-100 range difference is definitely not short enough to guarantee that you'll be able to be able to hit back with Rune Prison (though you'll probably land Q). It depends on the cast time of the enemy's skill and how well they cancel the cast animation (I'm pretty sure Kass vs. Ryze plays the same way as Kass vs. Vlad, where it's dependent on Kass' ability to animation cancel Null Sphere so that he can back off before eating Transfusion/Rune Prison).
It doesn't matter that Kassadin's null sphere slightly outranges ryze's spells. Kass won't be able to farm anything for a very long time. If ryze plays this matchup properly he'll get catalyst several levels before Kass.
Leblanc vs Ryze is like the same thing. The first three levels are going to be absolute hell for leblanc because ryze does not need to let her farm and she absolutely cannot fight ryze at level 1 so she'll hit level 2 while ryze is halfway to level 3 etc...
On April 05 2011 02:20 Juicyfruit wrote: It doesn't matter that Kassadin's null sphere slightly outranges ryze's spells. Kass won't be able to farm anything for a very long time. If ryze plays this matchup properly he'll get catalyst several levels before Kass.
Leblanc vs Ryze is like the same thing. The first three levels are going to be absolute hell for leblanc because ryze does not need to let her farm and she absolutely cannot fight ryze at level 1 so she'll hit level 2 while ryze is halfway to level 3 etc...
I don't disagree--I was just pointing out that zalz's analysis that you can generally follow up Qs with W against these types of lanes is not necessarily true. You don't win against Kass because you trade his Q for your QWQ (that should only happen if he doesn't animation cancel Q correctly), but because of his melee range autoattack, which allows you to prevent him from farming.
Blue and Quints is up to personal preference. Flat Mana makes you stronger early game. Per Level obviously gears you towards late. Red and Yellow are fixed.
Edit: before anyone asks, you don't need mana regen Yellow. Assuming you're going the standard Tear, Catalyst, Glaical build, you don't need mana regen. More HP, more tank, more Ryze will rape late game.
I feel Ryze is "pretty" tanky later on in the game as soon as you finish BV and Frozen Heart. The only real problem is the first couple levels for me since I run:
Red: Magic Pen Yellow: mp5/lvl Blue: MR/lvl Quintz: flat mana
It is extremely stressful to have four bars of health =(
On April 30 2011 03:35 Mogwai wrote: mpen reds flat mana blues and quints scaling mana yellows
IMO.
I'd say that Mpen quints are stronger, so you can delay your void staff just a tad more. The flat mana qunts aren't that spectacular, especially after overload nerf. If you get Mpen quints, you can get away with mercs more often, which is awesome.
Seems that tank Ryze is becoming pretty good, and the standard build is pretty close to: cata>boots>tear>merc treads>banshee's>glacial shroud and then build either frozen heart, Rylia's, or void staff depending on composition. And you'd also go armor/magic resist runes, as well as magic pen. Seems pretty sick.
On May 02 2011 02:07 MythicalMage wrote: Seems that tank Ryze is becoming pretty good, and the standard build is pretty close to: cata>boots>tear>merc treads>banshee's>glacial shroud and then build either frozen heart, Rylia's, or void staff depending on composition. And you'd also go armor/magic resist runes, as well as magic pen. Seems pretty sick.
I thought this was how everyone built ryze now. What else would you do? Deathcap? Revolver?
On May 02 2011 02:07 MythicalMage wrote: Seems that tank Ryze is becoming pretty good, and the standard build is pretty close to: cata>boots>tear>merc treads>banshee's>glacial shroud and then build either frozen heart, Rylia's, or void staff depending on composition. And you'd also go armor/magic resist runes, as well as magic pen. Seems pretty sick.
Glacial Shroud / Frozen Heart are pretty damn core on Ryze, I wouldn't say it's just another option- it's easily the best tailored to get CDR from for Ryze, and the synergy between his passive and CDR is huge.
The items you ideally want on him include: *Boots (probably Merc's) *Frozen Heart *Banshee's *Void Staff *Tear of the Goddess (can eventually be turned into Archangel's)
If the game goes on long enough, then you can consider filling up your final slot with Rylai's (no mana and 80 AP seems a bit suboptimal for Ryze, but the slow on your Q can be huge and more HP is always nice), RoA or something else.
IMO 3% CDR and 15% MPen are more useful to Ryze than 6 armor, 6 MR, and some amount of hp5. That 3% CDR goes a long way when it's taking you from 37% CDR -> 40% CDR, Ryze's laning just doesn't really demand the hp5 from SoS, and hp5 is just not really all that useful outside the laning phase.
On May 04 2011 12:19 TheYango wrote: IMO 3% CDR and 15% MPen are more useful to Ryze than 6 armor, 6 MR, and some amount of hp5. That 3% CDR goes a long way when it's taking you from 37% CDR -> 40% CDR, Ryze's laning just doesn't really demand the hp5 from SoS, and hp5 is just not really all that useful outside the laning phase.
You get 10% CDR from Ryze's Q, 20% from Frozen Heart, and 6% from Utility masteries. If you don't have blue buff, you're only missing 4%; if you really want to get to 40%, just get 4 CDR/level glyphs and you're done (that's like 1 quint's worth of max mana you're losing out on- OTOH if you go 9/0/21, it takes 3 HP regen quints to match Ryze's early game regen with SoS).
SoS > 3% CDR, and Ryze's late game is good enough that I'd rather make sure I'll have a good early game by going 0/9/21 and having a lot of HP regen and extra armor & mres without giving up much max mana for it. Late game, Archaic Knowledge is very good, but 40 HP/5 worth of regen is also kinda nice for when you're pushing or to recover from poking.
On May 04 2011 12:19 TheYango wrote: IMO 3% CDR and 15% MPen are more useful to Ryze than 6 armor, 6 MR, and some amount of hp5. That 3% CDR goes a long way when it's taking you from 37% CDR -> 40% CDR, Ryze's laning just doesn't really demand the hp5 from SoS, and hp5 is just not really all that useful outside the laning phase.
You get 10% CDR from Ryze's Q, 20% from Frozen Heart, and 6% from Utility masteries. If you don't have blue buff, you're only missing 4%; if you really want to get to 40%, just get 4 CDR/level glyphs and you're done (that's like 1 quint's worth of max mana you're losing out on- OTOH if you go 9/0/21, it takes 3 HP regen quints to match Ryze's early game regen with SoS).
SoS > 3% CDR, and Ryze's late game is good enough that I'd rather make sure I'll have a good early game by going 0/9/21 and having a lot of HP regen and extra armor & mres without giving up much max mana for it. Late game, Archaic Knowledge is very good, but 40 HP/5 worth of regen is also kinda nice for when you're pushing or to recover from poking.
Imo Ryze either craps on the other guy early game, or you are forced to play passive. I.E. Caitlyn is a lost lane anyways, gotta survive. SoS won't really help you a lot. Same with Karthus. However, vs a Teemo for example, the SoS isn't necessary to win. It seems incredible, but a very good Ryze player (Angush) told me to get Wamogs, so you get late game regen anyways.
On May 04 2011 22:48 BouBou.865 wrote: Does +40% Mpen mean that you slash off 40% of their Mres AFTER your flat Mpen has been substracted, or does it mean flat Mpenx1.4?
At first, any flat Magic Resist Reduction is applied. Then % Reduction. Then flat Penetration, then % Penetration. Penetration has no effect on Magic Resist below 0, and can only push it down to 0. Flat Reduction is the only way to go below 0. % Penetration effects stack multiplicatively, so if you have 40% and 15%, then the result is MagicResist * (1 - 40%) * (1 - 15%).
I have no idea what happens if you reduce the enemy Magic Resist below 0 and then apply a % Reduction effect.
On May 04 2011 22:48 BouBou.865 wrote: Does +40% Mpen mean that you slash off 40% of their Mres AFTER your flat Mpen has been substracted, or does it mean flat Mpenx1.4?
At first, any flat Magic Resist Reduction is applied. Then % Reduction. Then flat Penetration, then % Penetration. Penetration has no effect on Magic Resist below 0, and can only push it down to 0. Flat Reduction is the only way to go below 0. % Penetration effects stack multiplicatively, so if you have 40% and 15%, then the result is MagicResist * (1 - 40%) * (1 - 15%).
I have no idea what happens if you reduce the enemy Magic Resist below 0 and then apply a % Reduction effect.
Thanks for your explanation. In that case I would run 9/0/21, but I suppose it's kiiinda a tossup. After cata/tear/shroud, you get this hp regen gap, where the hp/5 would really help. At the same time though, more Mpen means you'll fill your carry role better with your tanky set up.
I guess that if you reduce enemy magic resist under 0 and then apply a % reduction effect, no Mres is substracted. Had I been programmer, that's what I would do anyways.
I feel that BOTH SoS and the %MPen are just too good to give up and 21 utility isn't that huge on ryze imo.
How are they not huge? He has no slow, his W has barely any range and is single target. If he gets ganked without summoners, the scientific term for Ryze's condition is powerborked. In order to let him catch up to stray enemies late game he needs flash/ghost too.
Let me put it this way: On what kind of character is 21 utility NOT bigger than on Ryze? It's more than just PotM, you also get flash mastery, (CDR?) and move speed.
On May 04 2011 22:50 BouBou.865 wrote: Imo Ryze either craps on the other guy early game, or you are forced to play passive. I.E. Caitlyn is a lost lane anyways, gotta survive. SoS won't really help you a lot. Same with Karthus. However, vs a Teemo for example, the SoS isn't necessary to win. It seems incredible, but a very good Ryze player (Angush) told me to get Wamogs, so you get late game regen anyways.
This is my reasoning. SoS just won't make or break any of your matchups. You'll either win them regardless or lose them regardless.
On top of that, every instance of Ryze I've seen played on stream at high Elo has been running 9/0/21.
Yeah I feel like if I have to mid against Caitlyn or someone like that, I either need ganks from a jungler/roamer, somebody needs to win their lane quickly, or my team comp/skill just isn't good enough. I go with 9/0/21 and in a case like this I just try to make sure I farm and dont get harassed too much. That way I can hope to be effective by the time teamfights start. If a gank doesn't kill but forces the champion out of the lane, I'll try to gank elsewhere. This has worked out before because I can help my teammates win their lane and therefore stop the clock from ticking down to the point where I'll lose mine.
I feel that BOTH SoS and the %MPen are just too good to give up and 21 utility isn't that huge on ryze imo.
How are they not huge? He has no slow, his W has barely any range and is single target. If he gets ganked without summoners, the scientific term for Ryze's condition is powerborked. In order to let him catch up to stray enemies late game he needs flash/ghost too.
Let me put it this way: On what kind of character is 21 utility NOT bigger than on Ryze? It's more than just PotM, you also get flash mastery, (CDR?) and move speed.
You lose 6% CDR and 2 points in movespeed if you want the flash bonus.
Frozen Heart: 20% CDR Soul Shroud from support: 10% CDR Blue Pot: 10% CDR
Personally I'm doing some things different with Ryze than most i think here and there and I'm doing pretty well around ~1500 ELO on EU with it.
Things I actually consider: CDR Boots. I feel that a rush to glacial+cdr boots is a huge thing sometimes. You get to 30% CDR in NO time at all pretty much.
Obviously considering the numbers above I usually aim for Mercboots lategame.
Another thing I feel that's rediciously OP on ryze is actually Warmogs. Ryze lategame has INSANE resists just like no health at all. Warmogs capitalizes on that big time. My main problem in games where I want to get Warmogs is the timing, it would need some more testing to see if it's really viable but it's just such a great item on Ryze.
My itembuilds look like this pretty much: Crystal+2 ---> Tear if I'm ahead in lane, Cata if I'm behind. -> Finish the other -> CDR Boots ---> Negatron/Chainarmor depending on who I'm laning against. ----> Banshees/Glacial --> Finish other one.
THIS is imo the ideal timing to throw in that warmogs before finishing Frozen Heart, I sometimes get it after Frozen Heart but around this it's a great mid-lategame survival item. After that I swap out my boots for mercs and start bluepotting + slowly finishing Voidstaff+AA
Overall it looks like: Merc Boots / Banshees / Frozen Heart / Warmogs / Voidstaff / AA
I don't know where you got the insane resists for Ryze, he has 30 innate, no innate resist growth and 50 from banshees so if he doesn't build merc treads, you will end up with 80 MR which is nice but not better than any other champ with BVeil and worse than any melee/tank. His armor can go pretty crazy, but not like you tower dive very often with Ryze so it's kinda not as strong as on tanky melee champions.
As a caster with good cast ranges and a ranged autoattack, you benefit from MR more than you benefit from armor. Armor is a great stat if you're into their DPS line (actually tanking their ranged DPS) and if you agrro the tower during dives, also with the side effect of tanking minions but that rarely comes into play. If you're standing in the back of the fights, your main threats are tanks (typically deal magic damage, not true with Jarman/Irelia) and assassins who are most often deal magic damage too. 80 MR is not enough to have great survivability in that case, so imo Ryze cannot go straight Warmogs with just a BVeil. Stacking BVeils increases your EHP nearly as well while also providing damage.
CDR boots are a huge fallacy on Ryze imo. People who build them just haven't made the calculations of how much of a damage increase you get from sorc shoes vs people who don't get early MR items with 21 MR reduced to 1 MR (so they are strictly better than 15% CDR in early game before teamfights start and you switch to tanks as primary targets) and how much of a lifesaver 35% CC reduction is (so Mercs are strictly better in later game). It would be worth it in late game if Ryze didn't already have a way to get 36-39% CDR from his core build. People who get CDR boots typically either have some other desirable effects on their skills than damage (most supports, Vlad for the healing), or do physical damage with their skills and don't fear CC (some Ezreal builds and Renekton come to mind) so they don't need the 20 MPen from their boots.
On May 05 2011 21:19 r.Evo wrote: You lose 6% CDR and 2 points in movespeed if you want the flash bonus.
Not with 21 utility. Again, SoS is not as big as I think people are making it out to be here. Hp5 #1 overcosted stat outside of laning, and Ryze's laning isn't such that SoS makes or breaks lots of matchups.
On May 05 2011 21:19 r.Evo wrote: Frozen Heart: 20% CDR Soul Shroud from support: 10% CDR Blue Pot: 10% CDR
You forgot Q passive.
On May 05 2011 21:19 r.Evo wrote: Another thing I feel that's rediciously OP on ryze is actually Warmogs. Ryze lategame has INSANE resists just like no health at all. Warmogs capitalizes on that big time. My main problem in games where I want to get Warmogs is the timing, it would need some more testing to see if it's really viable but it's just such a great item on Ryze.
Rylai's is the superior HP source on Ryze IMO. You don't use the AP that well, but Ryze gets a lot out of slow, because his Q uses the 35% slow (Riot derps out--uses the 15% slow on Vlad's Q and Cass' E because "having the 35% slow on such a short-CD spell would be OP", but Ryze's Q which has comparable/shorter CD uses the 35% slow).
On May 05 2011 21:43 BluzMan wrote: I don't know where you got the insane resists for Ryze, he has 30 innate, no innate resist growth and 50 from banshees so if he doesn't build merc treads, you will end up with 80 MR which is nice but not better than any other champ with BVeil and worse than any melee/tank. His armor can go pretty crazy, but not like you tower dive very often with Ryze so it's kinda not as strong as on tanky melee champions.
With 30 (innate), 50 (Bveil) and 24 (merc) I feel that Ryze has enough MR to warrant Warmogs, but eh. Also mercs basically 'counter' sorcs, so I do not see sorcs over mercs being a good choice almost ever.
Rylai's is the superior HP source on Ryze IMO. You don't use the AP that well, but Ryze gets a lot out of slow, because his Q uses the 35% slow (Riot derps out--uses the 15% slow on Vlad's Q and Cass' E because "having the 35% slow on such a short-CD spell would be OP", but Ryze's Q which has comparable/shorter CD uses the 35% slow).
Yango, the hp/5 of warmgs is actually quite welcome. Also, a filled up warmogs will give you 1350 HP, 2.7(?) times as much as Rylai's. Seeing as Ryze has decent catch up ability anyways with ghost/flash, has little/no use for AP and is tanky enough to not hve to put an emphasis on kiting, I feel like warmogs is the superior option. His also farms decently well, so warmogs should be on full charges.
On May 05 2011 22:09 BouBou.865 wrote: With 30 (innate), 50 (Bveil) and 24 (merc) I feel that Ryze has enough MR to warrant Warmogs, but eh. Also mercs basically 'counter' sorcs, so I do not see sorcs over mercs being a good choice almost ever.
Sorcs are fine on Ryze--you put off your boots2 long enough anyway that you have a good chance to see whether there are enough people in the right resistance range for Sorcs to be good.
Also note that Ryze gets extra mileage out of MPen because it stacks with the 12 MR reduction from his E. This means he can take people even with flat MR glyphs from 43 MR to 1 MR, and someone with Mercs from 54 MR to 12 MR.
On May 05 2011 22:13 BouBou.865 wrote: Yango, the hp/5 of warmgs is actually quite welcome. Also, a filled up warmogs will give you 1350 HP, 2.7(?) times as much as Rylai's. Seeing as Ryze has decent catch up ability anyways with ghost/flash, has little/no use for AP and is tanky enough to not hve to put an emphasis on kiting, I feel like warmogs is the superior option. His also farms decently well, so warmogs should be on full charges.
If you're getting Warmog's midgame, sure.
I don't see Warmog/Rylais as something you'd get any earlier than 6th item, and that's assuming that you weren't doing well enough to get away with RoA early-mid. You don't get to 6th item, and then plan around the game going long enough for you to get 100 MORE minion kills--especially since if you've got 6 items, someone else will probably want minion kills for gold, and not just Warmog stacks.
On May 05 2011 22:09 BouBou.865 wrote: With 30 (innate), 50 (Bveil) and 24 (merc) I feel that Ryze has enough MR to warrant Warmogs, but eh. Also mercs basically 'counter' sorcs, so I do not see sorcs over mercs being a good choice almost ever.
Sorcs are fine on Ryze--you put off your boots2 long enough anyway that you have a good chance to see whether there are enough people in the right resistance range for Sorcs to be good.
Also note that Ryze gets extra mileage out of MPen because it stacks with the 12 MR reduction from his E. This means he can take people even with flat MR glyphs from 43 MR to 1 MR, and someone with Mercs from 54 MR to 12 MR.
On May 05 2011 22:13 BouBou.865 wrote: Yango, the hp/5 of warmgs is actually quite welcome. Also, a filled up warmogs will give you 1350 HP, 2.7(?) times as much as Rylai's. Seeing as Ryze has decent catch up ability anyways with ghost/flash, has little/no use for AP and is tanky enough to not hve to put an emphasis on kiting, I feel like warmogs is the superior option. His also farms decently well, so warmogs should be on full charges.
If you're getting Warmog's midgame, sure.
I don't see Warmog/Rylais as something you'd get any earlier than 6th item.
I don't usually get warmog/rylais as a third item or anything crazy either. Anyways, only if they have very little MR will I go warmog before void, or if they have like 4AP then I will only build shroud, and finish frozen heart very late, instead getting warmogs sooner. I still feel that mercs warmogs is a stronger combo then sorc/rylais.
^ And the fact that it works like that is pretty much the reason why tanky deeps are so good.
oh and hmmm...
The 8% mana nerf doesn't affect ryze that horribly except that you can't dominate earlygame so horribly. By the way, does Ryze beat Malzahar or does Malzahar poop on Ryze? At least at 6 he does but I wonder if Ryze should be able to gain a large enough advantage before 6
On May 05 2011 22:09 BouBou.865 wrote: With 30 (innate), 50 (Bveil) and 24 (merc) I feel that Ryze has enough MR to warrant Warmogs, but eh. Also mercs basically 'counter' sorcs, so I do not see sorcs over mercs being a good choice almost ever.
Sorcs are fine on Ryze--you put off your boots2 long enough anyway that you have a good chance to see whether there are enough people in the right resistance range for Sorcs to be good.
Also note that Ryze gets extra mileage out of MPen because it stacks with the 12 MR reduction from his E. This means he can take people even with flat MR glyphs from 43 MR to 1 MR, and someone with Mercs from 54 MR to 12 MR.
On May 05 2011 22:13 BouBou.865 wrote: Yango, the hp/5 of warmgs is actually quite welcome. Also, a filled up warmogs will give you 1350 HP, 2.7(?) times as much as Rylai's. Seeing as Ryze has decent catch up ability anyways with ghost/flash, has little/no use for AP and is tanky enough to not hve to put an emphasis on kiting, I feel like warmogs is the superior option. His also farms decently well, so warmogs should be on full charges.
If you're getting Warmog's midgame, sure.
I don't see Warmog/Rylais as something you'd get any earlier than 6th item.
I don't usually get warmog/rylais as a third item or anything crazy either. Anyways, only if they have very little MR will I go warmog before void, or if they have like 4AP then I will only build shroud, and finish frozen heart very late, instead getting warmogs sooner. I still feel that mercs warmogs is a stronger combo then sorc/rylais.
I've got the same reasoning behind warmogs, keeping in mind that lategame your SoS adds another 40hp/10 (if you assume 4k mana which should be the case pretty often =P)
...
Completely convinced on Sorc vs CDR boots though. That analysis made sense. ;S
I'll try out ryalis more often but I think it's more of a "I cant rush that warmogs easily and need something in cheap chunks to get some HP somehow"-item.
On May 05 2011 22:09 BouBou.865 wrote: With 30 (innate), 50 (Bveil) and 24 (merc) I feel that Ryze has enough MR to warrant Warmogs, but eh. Also mercs basically 'counter' sorcs, so I do not see sorcs over mercs being a good choice almost ever.
Sorcs are fine on Ryze--you put off your boots2 long enough anyway that you have a good chance to see whether there are enough people in the right resistance range for Sorcs to be good.
Also note that Ryze gets extra mileage out of MPen because it stacks with the 12 MR reduction from his E. This means he can take people even with flat MR glyphs from 43 MR to 1 MR, and someone with Mercs from 54 MR to 12 MR.
On May 05 2011 22:13 BouBou.865 wrote: Yango, the hp/5 of warmgs is actually quite welcome. Also, a filled up warmogs will give you 1350 HP, 2.7(?) times as much as Rylai's. Seeing as Ryze has decent catch up ability anyways with ghost/flash, has little/no use for AP and is tanky enough to not hve to put an emphasis on kiting, I feel like warmogs is the superior option. His also farms decently well, so warmogs should be on full charges.
If you're getting Warmog's midgame, sure.
I don't see Warmog/Rylais as something you'd get any earlier than 6th item.
I don't usually get warmog/rylais as a third item or anything crazy either. Anyways, only if they have very little MR will I go warmog before void, or if they have like 4AP then I will only build shroud, and finish frozen heart very late, instead getting warmogs sooner. I still feel that mercs warmogs is a stronger combo then sorc/rylais.
I've got the same reasoning behind warmogs, keeping in mind that lategame your SoS adds another 40hp/10 (if you assume 4k mana which should be the case pretty often =P)
...
Completely convinced on Sorc vs CDR boots though. That analysis made sense. ;S
I'll try out ryalis more often but I think it's more of a "I cant rush that warmogs easily and need something in cheap chunks to get some HP somehow"-item.
Nah, the 35% slow on Ryze's Q is actually really good.
I've got the same reasoning behind warmogs, keeping in mind that lategame your SoS adds another 40hp/10 (if you assume 4k mana which should be the case pretty often =P)
Completely convinced on Sorc vs CDR boots though. That analysis made sense. ;S
I'll try out ryalis more often but I think it's more of a "I cant rush that warmogs easily and need something in cheap chunks to get some HP somehow"-item.
But you don't benefit from the 40 hp/5 as much as you do from 15% Mpen. Magic damage equals health thanks to spellvamp of ult anyways.You gain more burst hp from mpen. Also, you're supposed to be doing the damage, so speccing tanky is pretty counter intuitive, unless you get like 50% more survivability in trade for 3% less damage. (as is the case with ryze lolol.)
On May 05 2011 23:43 Shikyo wrote: ^ And the fact that it works like that is pretty much the reason why tanky deeps are so good.
oh and hmmm...
The 8% mana nerf doesn't affect ryze that horribly except that you can't dominate earlygame so horribly. By the way, does Ryze beat Malzahar or does Malzahar poop on Ryze? At least at 6 he does but I wonder if Ryze should be able to gain a large enough advantage before 6
I find that it's pretty even. Malz's visions have slightly shorter range than Ryze's Q, but if the Ryze attempts to Q-W combo Malz can get visions off on Ryze. Not only that, but Malz's Q has an insane range. A good Malz can just use his own Q to prevent or punish Ryze for Q-ing him.
Do you guys think Ryze is still strong after nerf? I haven't seen any lately, although I've still been doing decent with him. Also, Malz doesn't definetely have the edge at level 6, he can't kill you from full hp but you can harass him proper and then just heal up thanks to your ult.
On June 04 2011 16:08 BouBou.865 wrote: Do you guys think Ryze is still strong after nerf? I haven't seen any lately, although I've still been doing decent with him. Also, Malz doesn't definetely have the edge at level 6, he can't kill you from full hp but you can harass him proper and then just heal up thanks to your ult.
Ryze is a lot weaker now. That 2% difference was actually quite a bit. It's a 20% decrease in overall dps. He's still pretty solid as a champ but there are simply better casters now.
On June 04 2011 16:08 BouBou.865 wrote: Do you guys think Ryze is still strong after nerf? I haven't seen any lately, although I've still been doing decent with him. Also, Malz doesn't definetely have the edge at level 6, he can't kill you from full hp but you can harass him proper and then just heal up thanks to your ult.
Ryze is a lot weaker now. That 2% difference was actually quite a bit. It's a 20% decrease in overall dps. He's still pretty solid as a champ but there are simply better casters now.
How is it a 20% decrease? His Q (which isn't his only spell) has AP scaling aswell, and after ArchAngels and void staff you have like 200 ish AP. Also his Q has base damage. I'd say his total damage output was nerfed by about 10%, I don't see how that takes him from 'z0mg OPPP' into the meh zone.
New Ryze: At 3.5k mana and no AP yet (roughly 30 minutes): Q will do 410 damage W will do 375 E will hit 3 times in a 1v1 scenario, (is lvl 5 ignoring the MR reduction it gives) 390
Old Ryze: All other moves are the same and Q does 480 damage.
A chain of casts is Q W Q E Q R Q, so in that time New Ryze does 410+375+410+390+410+410=2405
Old Ryze did: 480+375+480+390+480+480= 2685
This is roughly a 10% reduction in overall damage, however it is a HUGE reduction in early game laning, since that is mainly just Q spam.
On May 05 2011 23:43 Shikyo wrote: By the way, does Ryze beat Malzahar or does Malzahar poop on Ryze? At least at 6 he does but I wonder if Ryze should be able to gain a large enough advantage before 6
I find it depends on Ryze's ability to dodge Q. If he does, Ryze wins pretty handily.
On July 10 2011 11:05 locodoco wrote: can some1 do a spreadsheet/theorycraft/damage comparison on magic pen vs mana / lvl on red and quint slot?
Easymode logic says that at least for reds mpen is clearly superior at least for lategame(prolly early too as its mana/lv), for quints you might need to do some work =P
ok when have ppl stopped playing ryze? the 2% less mana scaling on Q is so tiny. I doubt its even 1% of overall damage even if that is just a bold assumption.
Is the OP more or less up to date?
I would build ryze atm with: cata, tear, mercs, roa, glacial shroud, banshees, frozen heart, voidstaff, archangels.
0/9/21 with SoS.
dunno why ppl dont play him at all. Dont think there are alot of champs that dish out so much while being tanky and ranged at the same time.
yea hes still really strong, almost scored a penta with him yesterday. the sona was in their spawn so i couldnt quite burst her from 100 to 0 in there for the last kill
Actually I have been seeing quite a few Ryze picks in high elo streams lately. And Katarina too. Ryze has the problem that he pretty much has no burst potential at all. His lvl 6 is especially poor. That makes his midgame rather weak, and since there is such a strong focus on midgame right now that's kinda annoying.
There also is the issue that he kinda requires a special runepage.
no burst 0o his single target burst is absurdly strong, even brand has trouble laning vs him
his problem is that he is a sustained caster like cass and the rest of the gang that falls in this category. Ryze is a bit more viable though due to him being tankier. If you only get in one round of spells you are a deadweight character, but if you are able to stay alive and kite he does a ridiculous amount of damage for a caster.
i picked ryze up again last week (hadnt played him since the revamp). i really like the changes, ryze is one of the more fun champs imo.
today with ryze being free has been amusing too. just played a game with a ap ryze on the other team. we won ^^
i go tear, banshees/frozen heart, boots, roa (or switch with the tank items if prudent), manamune at the end to help take down turrets when ive got 4.5k mana. i forget to buy a void staff but i think that would help me out a lot. only lvl 25 atm.
On September 12 2011 00:47 STS17 wrote: Thoughts on Expanded Mind for Ryze? Also, given the tankyness of his build, is it better to go for SoS or Archaic Knowledge?
Expanded Mind is confirmed by Riot to only affect base mana, and not total mana, which means it gives a total of like 60 mana @ 18, regardless of how many mana items you have.
I'd take Archaic Knowledge for sure. SoS is cost-efficient, but its not like hp5 really goes anywhere as a stat for Ryze. Plus that 3% CDR is definitely worth having.
On September 12 2011 00:47 STS17 wrote: Thoughts on Expanded Mind for Ryze? Also, given the tankyness of his build, is it better to go for SoS or Archaic Knowledge?
Most people do SoS, both both are really good. In the end it depends on the matchup/team comps.
If you end up forced to go merc over sorc i'd definitely consider 9 offense.
Expanded Mind was fixed some time ago, it now really increases your total mana by 5%. I tested it in custom games to make sure.
Since there is not much else that's useful for Ryze in the Utility Tree (don't really need increased regen, mp/5 and buff duration), Expanded Mind is more useful on Ryze.
Sos or Mpen15%... I think it's just a matter of user preference/situation, since both have their pros and cons.
On September 12 2011 04:45 xiaoW wrote: Expanded Mind was fixed some time ago, it now really increases your total mana by 5%. I tested it in custom games to make sure. ...
On September 12 2011 00:47 STS17 wrote: Thoughts on Expanded Mind for Ryze? Also, given the tankyness of his build, is it better to go for SoS or Archaic Knowledge?
Expanded Mind is confirmed by Riot to only affect base mana, and not total mana, which means it gives a total of like 60 mana @ 18, regardless of how many mana items you have.
I'd take Archaic Knowledge for sure. SoS is cost-efficient, but its not like hp5 really goes anywhere as a stat for Ryze. Plus that 3% CDR is definitely worth having.
Pretty sure Yango is right. You should probably run your tests again.
On September 12 2011 04:45 xiaoW wrote: Expanded Mind was fixed some time ago, it now really increases your total mana by 5%. I tested it in custom games to make sure. ...
On September 12 2011 00:47 STS17 wrote: Thoughts on Expanded Mind for Ryze? Also, given the tankyness of his build, is it better to go for SoS or Archaic Knowledge?
Expanded Mind is confirmed by Riot to only affect base mana, and not total mana, which means it gives a total of like 60 mana @ 18, regardless of how many mana items you have.
I'd take Archaic Knowledge for sure. SoS is cost-efficient, but its not like hp5 really goes anywhere as a stat for Ryze. Plus that 3% CDR is definitely worth having.
Pretty sure Yango is right. You should probably run your tests again.
What makes you think he is right? It was like 6months ago that Riot confirmed it was only affecting base mana. Seeing Dyrus, Reginald and some others recently getting Expanded Mind on Singed, I went to check if it was really fixed.
I'll give you test results. Since, you don't want to check your sources before you confirm the facts.
Ryze lvl 1, no Expanded Mind, with SapphireCrystal: 505mana + Show Spoiler +
(Base 305 + 200)
Ryze lvl 1, with Expaned Mind, with SapphireCrystal: 530 mana + Show Spoiler +
(Base 305 + 200)*1.05
Further proof, which is not really necessary. But, just in case: Ryze lvl 6, no Expanded Mind, with SapphireCrystal: 855mana Ryze lvl 6, with Expaned Mind, with SapphireCrystal: 897 mana
Ryze has been pretty fun. My usual caster is Brand, but Ryze really has a different skillset and doesn't suffer from the Brand "oops I missed one spell in my combo, I'm screwed" problems. I think I'll end up buying him after the free week's over tomorrow.
Intro aside, any tips for soloing mid against an AD? I figure you just have to play safe, so I tried a few games of getting E up fast and only focusing on farming efficiently through that. It... had mild success, but probably not as much as it could have.
How do you play mid as him? Do you focus on harassing the enemy, farming, or just surviving? I main Cait, so I can zone well with her, but obviously it's not the same playstyle for Ryze.
On September 12 2011 23:34 Requizen wrote: Ryze has been pretty fun. My usual caster is Brand, but Ryze really has a different skillset and doesn't suffer from the Brand "oops I missed one spell in my combo, I'm screwed" problems. I think I'll end up buying him after the free week's over tomorrow.
Intro aside, any tips for soloing mid against an AD? I figure you just have to play safe, so I tried a few games of getting E up fast and only focusing on farming efficiently through that. It... had mild success, but probably not as much as it could have.
How do you play mid as him? Do you focus on harassing the enemy, farming, or just surviving? I main Cait, so I can zone well with her, but obviously it's not the same playstyle for Ryze.
I was under the impression that you max e last, excpe maybe 1 point early to proc your passive to spam more spells in combos. Since it doesn't scale with your mana, doesn't really do much in terms of damage or harass. Q is better since the range is same or about, and is based off mana :>
Yeah, I know I'm wrong probably, since I don't really play him that much. I mainly did it those few times because I thought "ooh, AoE damage = free farming". The damage is pretty pitiful against single targets.
i've been running either 1-7-22 or 1-6-23 masteries and i feel that taking 4 points in expanded mind makes a bit of a difference by giving up only meditation. anyone else try this?
God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
I think you underestimate the damage E does with some decent AP
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
I think you underestimate the damage E does with some decent AP
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
If you have Manamune, and 4k mana, you get +100 bonus AD (including the base provided by the item). If you have Archangel's and 4k mana, you get +165 bonus AP (again, including the base).
Damage dealt to towers is base damage+bonus AD or base damage+40% AP, whichever is higher. You won't have any bonus AD from your items, so the tower pushing damage of AA Staff matches that of Manamune if you have ~85 AP from other sources. You get around that much AP from WotA, Void Staff, or Rylai's (and you will probably have 1 of those items), meaning that Manamune barely gives you more damage vs. Towers than AA Staff. If you have more than one significant AP source (say you got Void Staff, and a teammate has WotA), then AA actually lets you have MORE damage vs. towers than Manamune.
e ratio is 0.3 but that shit bounces + the aoe effect from his ulti = significant increase i mean you can pull a vman but lategame its pretty obv that AA is stronger than manamune like only reasoning i can see why manamune would be gotten is that you needed that AD for whatever reason at a certain time (its certainly cheaper too)
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
I think you underestimate the damage E does with some decent AP
0.3 ap ratio = don't bother with AP
0.3 ap ratio that can hit targets multiple times isn't THAT bad, also Ryze's cooldowns are short enough that increasing AP ratio isn't that awful, because he's recasting the spell in 2-3 seconds anyway. It ends up being the same reason that Starcall has an OK AP ratio at 0.4
Also, AA makes you a tower damage threat too. (AP turns into tower autoattack damage, and since you already have AP from RoA and Void staff, might as well stick with the 40% of AP route for +AD to towers.) Ryze isn't the greatest tower damage threat anyway because his autoattack range is pretty bad.
Trying to do a AP / mana ryze as a squishy is riddicolous amounts of damage and great fun even if you're not that tanky. a build finished build like Sorc's, AA, RoA, Tome of the Ancients, banshees, rylai's It's really riddicolous how much damage it is while still having descent tankiness with banshee / rylai and the spellvamp. Would prolly build frozen hearth instead of RoA if they had had more physical damage that game... who actually hurt me, Ryze's SLAY tryndamere's so fun.
I dont advice doing this build if you dont look like you're gonna end the game like 20-4-19 but if you are, enjoy the fun :D
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
I think you underestimate the damage E does with some decent AP
0.3 ap ratio = don't bother with AP
0.3 ap ratio that can hit targets multiple times isn't THAT bad, also Ryze's cooldowns are short enough that increasing AP ratio isn't that awful, because he's recasting the spell in 2-3 seconds anyway. It ends up being the same reason that Starcall has an OK AP ratio at 0.4
Also, AA makes you a tower damage threat too. (AP turns into tower autoattack damage, and since you already have AP from RoA and Void staff, might as well stick with the 40% of AP route for +AD to towers.) Ryze isn't the greatest tower damage threat anyway because his autoattack range is pretty bad.
I've been skipping the voidstaff and for my last item getting deathcap after I upgrade my tear to AA. Is that a good choice (it's been working out well in games where I start out doing decent, often gets me more AP than genuine AP characters actually. 3 % of 4.4k is a lot of AP, and that on top of 140 AP from Rabadon's and the AP gained from RoA means that the 30% buff from Rabadon's is working off of well over 300 AP. In short, I get over 500 AP by the end of the game with this build and still have 4.4k mana).
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
I think you underestimate the damage E does with some decent AP
0.3 ap ratio = don't bother with AP
0.3 ap ratio that can hit targets multiple times isn't THAT bad, also Ryze's cooldowns are short enough that increasing AP ratio isn't that awful, because he's recasting the spell in 2-3 seconds anyway. It ends up being the same reason that Starcall has an OK AP ratio at 0.4
Also, AA makes you a tower damage threat too. (AP turns into tower autoattack damage, and since you already have AP from RoA and Void staff, might as well stick with the 40% of AP route for +AD to towers.) Ryze isn't the greatest tower damage threat anyway because his autoattack range is pretty bad.
I've been skipping the voidstaff and for my last item getting deathcap after I upgrade my tear to AA. Is that a good choice (it's been working out well in games where I start out doing decent, often gets me more AP than genuine AP characters actually. 3 % of 4.4k is a lot of AP, and that on top of 140 AP from Rabadon's and the AP gained from RoA means that the 30% buff from Rabadon's is working off of well over 300 AP. In short, I get over 500 AP by the end of the game with this build and still have 4.4k mana).
More comparisons:
Raw Q damage with no AP, and 4k mana: 460 damage Q damage vs 100 MR target, with no AP and 4k mana: 230 damage Q damage vs 60 MR target, with no AP, and 4k mana: 290 damage
This means that even vs. 100 MR targets (a very small amount for the stage of the game we're talking--even squishies should be breaking this number easily), your DCap build needs to have 300 more AP in order to surpass Void Staff's damage (not even considering that Void Staff costs ~1.5k less than Deathcap). Against targets with more MR, the breakeven point is at even higher AP values, making it very unlikely for Deathcap to be superior to Void Staff.
At the point in the game where you're buying your 6th item, NO ONE should have low enough MR for Deathcap to be better.
On September 19 2011 17:48 TheDougler wrote: God I love Ryze, he's now the only champion I play.
One thing that I've found EXTREMELY helpful is as soon as you get tear of the goddess, try to get blue buff and then spam the hell out of your abilities as much as possible. If you can get that 1000 mana from tear of the goddess before a half hour of play (tricky to do but not impossible. I find killing dragon helps a ton with this as you can go through your whole cycle at least a couple of times). Then you just end up being retardedly OP. Especially when you upgrade it to archangel staff, I find that archangle staff plus deathcap suddenly means that in the very VERY late stages of the game you find yourself with a pretty decent E as well as a GODLY Q and W.
don't bother with archangel get manamune instead seriously, i'm not trolling i mean you should charge your tear while you build banshee, frozen heart, void staff, and other core items, but you should turn your tear into manamune not archangels. the AP isn't gonna do shit for you but with like 900000 mana you'll actually be a tower pushing threat with manamune
I think you underestimate the damage E does with some decent AP
0.3 ap ratio = don't bother with AP
0.3 ap ratio that can hit targets multiple times isn't THAT bad, also Ryze's cooldowns are short enough that increasing AP ratio isn't that awful, because he's recasting the spell in 2-3 seconds anyway. It ends up being the same reason that Starcall has an OK AP ratio at 0.4
Also, AA makes you a tower damage threat too. (AP turns into tower autoattack damage, and since you already have AP from RoA and Void staff, might as well stick with the 40% of AP route for +AD to towers.) Ryze isn't the greatest tower damage threat anyway because his autoattack range is pretty bad.
I've been skipping the voidstaff and for my last item getting deathcap after I upgrade my tear to AA. Is that a good choice (it's been working out well in games where I start out doing decent, often gets me more AP than genuine AP characters actually. 3 % of 4.4k is a lot of AP, and that on top of 140 AP from Rabadon's and the AP gained from RoA means that the 30% buff from Rabadon's is working off of well over 300 AP. In short, I get over 500 AP by the end of the game with this build and still have 4.4k mana).
More comparisons:
Raw Q damage with no AP, and 4k mana: 460 damage Q damage vs 100 MR target, with no AP and 4k mana: 230 damage Q damage vs 60 MR target, with no AP, and 4k mana: 290 damage
This means that even vs. 100 MR targets (a very small amount for the stage of the game we're talking--even squishies should be breaking this number easily), your DCap build needs to have 300 more AP in order to surpass Void Staff's damage (not even considering that Void Staff costs ~1.5k less than Deathcap). Against targets with more MR, the breakeven point is at even higher AP values, making it very unlikely for Deathcap to be superior to Void Staff.
At the point in the game where you're buying your 6th item, NO ONE should have low enough MR for Deathcap to be better.
Yeah, 100 MR is like... sup i have 1 negatron and some MR/level runes.
a friend of mine went for a pretty funny build in a troll game that actually turned out to be super effective, opening manamune rush, catalyst, glacial shroud and then finishing veil and heart. didn't see the end of the build but I think he built ASP(SOD, malady, WE or similar) he went something like 8/5/4 overall. Gotta fear the AD hybrid ryze
That's barely deviated from a normal build. Everything but Manamune (which is only half not-standard) and aspd last item are completely typical items. People have run Manamune as a last item for pushing power on towers, since you have no AP, but it's pretty meh.
On September 27 2011 09:50 Holykitty wrote: does anyone know the AP ratio of ryze's main nuke? im curious if its ever worth buying ap items or if even slightly bad mana items are better
It's 0.2.
If you ever buy AP on Ryze, it's because that item gives you some other benefit that is far more significant than the AP gain, be it magic penetration (Void Staff), Spell Vamp and an aura (WotA), or survivability and utility (Rylai's). You generally do end up with 1 or more of these lategame, as there are only really 3 "core" mana items for you (BVeil, FHeart, Tear).
Like, if you get to so lategame that you got bveil, heart and tear done, you'll get more dmg on Q by getting a new catalyst than you'd get for a needlessly large rod. Catalyst would be cheaper too. Heck, you'd probably get more dmg out of a RoA (+extra hp) than a deathcap at that point.
On September 27 2011 09:50 Holykitty wrote: does anyone know the AP ratio of ryze's main nuke? im curious if its ever worth buying ap items or if even slightly bad mana items are better
It's 0.2.
If you ever buy AP on Ryze, it's because that item gives you some other benefit that is far more significant than the AP gain, be it magic penetration (Void Staff), Spell Vamp and an aura (WotA), or survivability and utility (Rylai's). You generally do end up with 1 or more of these lategame, as there are only really 3 "core" mana items for you (BVeil, FHeart, Tear).
On September 27 2011 09:50 Holykitty wrote: does anyone know the AP ratio of ryze's main nuke? im curious if its ever worth buying ap items or if even slightly bad mana items are better
It's 0.2.
If you ever buy AP on Ryze, it's because that item gives you some other benefit that is far more significant than the AP gain, be it magic penetration (Void Staff), Spell Vamp and an aura (WotA), or survivability and utility (Rylai's). You generally do end up with 1 or more of these lategame, as there are only really 3 "core" mana items for you (BVeil, FHeart, Tear).
Considering how much Ryze can spam his spells the low AP ratio isnt quite as bad as it looks - since he casts his Q maybe 2 or 3 times as much as other casters use their spells the 0.2 will effectively be more like 0.4 or 0.6 (not counting splash from his R too). Im not saying to build for ability power rather than mana by any means, but the AP from RoA/Archangels/Void Staff is by no means wasted.
Something I'm curious about - when a game starts to go really long and you finish all six items I know that its sometimes a good idea to sell your boots (eg swapping out zerker greaves for a phantom dancer or whatnot on an ad carry). Would it ever make sense to swap out the sorc boots on Ryze (or ap carries generally)? And for what?
Ryze has great sustain damage, and he naturally build tanky, so warmogs is good on ryze. He is not like typical mages, because he can keep doing damage and tank a lot of it.
Ryze has great sustain damage, and he naturally build tanky, so warmogs is good on ryze. He is not like typical mages, because he can keep doing damage and tank a lot of it.
edit: I am talking about really long games.
no it doesnt, everyone has like 80 mr minimum at that point, sorc boots are still required
Ryze has great sustain damage, and he naturally build tanky, so warmogs is good on ryze. He is not like typical mages, because he can keep doing damage and tank a lot of it.
edit: I am talking about really long games.
no it doesnt, everyone has like 80 mr minimum at that point, sorc boots are still required
The more MR people have, the less effective Sorcs becomes, particularly when Void Staff is in play, because Sorcs' flat penetration applies before Void Staff's 40% penentration.
Early game, Sorcs takes peoples' MR from 20 down to 0, resulting in a 20% increase in damage--very significant. Comparing to a lategame case with Void Staff, assuming a 100 MR target:
MR after Sorcs, Archaic Knowledge, and Void Staff: 40 MR (29% damage reduction) MR after just Archaic Knowledge and Void Staff: 50 MR (33% damage reduction)
Meaning that Sorcs is only a 6% damage increase against a 100 MR target when you have Void Staff--still nice, but 35 Tenacity is probably better, particularly when 100 MR probably only accounts for the 1-2 squishiest members of the enemy team.
On September 27 2011 09:50 Holykitty wrote: does anyone know the AP ratio of ryze's main nuke? im curious if its ever worth buying ap items or if even slightly bad mana items are better
It's 0.2.
If you ever buy AP on Ryze, it's because that item gives you some other benefit that is far more significant than the AP gain, be it magic penetration (Void Staff), Spell Vamp and an aura (WotA), or survivability and utility (Rylai's). You generally do end up with 1 or more of these lategame, as there are only really 3 "core" mana items for you (BVeil, FHeart, Tear).
you dont rate rod of ages then?
yeah I dont get that. Roa scales so well on ryze.
And to the AP discussion: 0.35 on E is a huge scaling depending on the situation. the 0.2 on Q isnt ignorable when because you get about 3+ Qs on one rotation which makes it 0.6+. 0.6 on W is only like 0.1 point below most ap scalings. Allways consider the cooldowns and attack rotation when you compare ratios. The only non-ap items you get on ryze are veil and shroud/heart. roa, aa, voidstaff, wota, rilays, abyssmal are all huge items on him.
On September 27 2011 09:50 Holykitty wrote: does anyone know the AP ratio of ryze's main nuke? im curious if its ever worth buying ap items or if even slightly bad mana items are better
It's 0.2.
If you ever buy AP on Ryze, it's because that item gives you some other benefit that is far more significant than the AP gain, be it magic penetration (Void Staff), Spell Vamp and an aura (WotA), or survivability and utility (Rylai's). You generally do end up with 1 or more of these lategame, as there are only really 3 "core" mana items for you (BVeil, FHeart, Tear).
you dont rate rod of ages then?
yeah I dont get that. Roa scales so well on ryze.
And to the AP discussion: 0.35 on E is a huge scaling depending on the situation. the 0.2 on Q isnt ignorable when because you get about 3+ Qs on one rotation which makes it 0.6+. 0.6 on W is only like 0.1 point below most ap scalings. Allways consider the cooldowns and attack rotation when you compare ratios. The only non-ap items you get on ryze are veil and shroud/heart. roa, aa, voidstaff, wota, rilays, abyssmal are all huge items on him.
Rod is situational. Sometimes you can afford getting it, and sometimes you absolutely need BVeil/Glacial right away. It's nice to have, but it's not core by any means.
what do you mean by "need". You "need" damage and survivability. Roa gives the most damage is the most costefficient item after rageblade and still gives you a good chunk of survivability while the other ones are more catered towards specific survivability. Both veil and glacial shroud are costeffective but make you a lesser threat and Roa itself scales very well with those two items anyway and its no question what is better to get earlyer because of the strong sustain and stat/time.
The worst thing you can do on a damage dealer is to buy too much survivability when your pressured or even behind because you will be even less threatening or in the worst case ignoreable. Defensive items on damage dealers are either there to solve specific problems (QSS/mercs/ninja tabi etc.) or are luxuries to get when you want to press your advantage, in the same way as offensive items are luxuries on tanks to press their advantage. Ryze does not provide enough besides damage to neglect damage.
That said, iam totally aware of the fact that both items give you significant damage too, but they are not comparable to RoA in that manner. And I even dare to say that the additional HP and sustain RoA gives you makes up for a better chunk of the defensive stats that glacial/veil give.
Yeah, I've been having issues as Ryze recently as to what to buy. I've been going Sapphire first, then Tear -> Boots -> Catalyst -> Boots2 -> RoA, but it just doesn't feel strong. Dunno though.
On October 01 2011 03:39 clickrush wrote: what do you mean by "need". You "need" damage and survivability. Roa gives the most damage is the most costefficient item after rageblade and still gives you a good chunk of survivability while the other ones are more catered towards specific survivability. Both veil and glacial shroud are costeffective but make you a lesser threat and Roa itself scales very well with those two items anyway and its no question what is better to get earlyer because of the strong sustain and stat/time.
That's the thing. RoA is not an efficient investment off the bat--you invest a LOT in the AP right away, which doesn't go very far on you. Banshee's/Glacial give you immediate benefit. In some games, your team just can't afford to wait for you to let your Rod charge for 10 minutes, because by that time you'll have lost the game.
I'm also not the only one who feels this way. Loci very frequently does not get Rod of Ages as well.
I don't see how finishing early RoA would be more efficient than getting banshee or glacial. Especially glacial is pretty crucial for the CDR as you can't be 100% of the game under blue buff.
On October 01 2011 03:39 clickrush wrote: what do you mean by "need". You "need" damage and survivability. Roa gives the most damage is the most costefficient item after rageblade and still gives you a good chunk of survivability while the other ones are more catered towards specific survivability. Both veil and glacial shroud are costeffective but make you a lesser threat and Roa itself scales very well with those two items anyway and its no question what is better to get earlyer because of the strong sustain and stat/time.
The worst thing you can do on a damage dealer is to buy too much survivability when your pressured or even behind because you will be even less threatening or in the worst case ignoreable. Defensive items on damage dealers are either there to solve specific problems (QSS/mercs/ninja tabi etc.) or are luxuries to get when you want to press your advantage, in the same way as offensive items are luxuries on tanks to press their advantage. Ryze does not provide enough besides damage to neglect damage.
That said, iam totally aware of the fact that both items give you significant damage too, but they are not comparable to RoA in that manner. And I even dare to say that the additional HP and sustain RoA gives you makes up for a better chunk of the defensive stats that glacial/veil give.
CDR is the best way to itemize damage on Ryze due to its synergy with his passive.
Like, let's take a fully charged RoA vs. a Frozen Heart
RoA: 725 Mana 80 AP
Frozen Heart: 500 Mana 20% CDR
Let's assume the mana pool of both these builds is 2000 before the item in question. Let's also assume 10% CDR from level 5 Q and 9% CDR + 10 AP from 9/0/21 spec. We'll be talking level 10 with 5Q, 3W, 1E, 1R
W damage: 130 + 6 (AP) + 125 (Mana) = 261 W CD: 8.54
E damage (assume 3 hits because we're super lucky!): (50 + 3.5) * 3 = 160.5 E CD: 8.54
R CD: 42.7
Over 10 secs (I'll assume 0.2 second cast animations on everything because I don't know any better) 0.00: Q (2.135, up, up, up) 342 0.20: W (0.935, 8.54, up, up) 603 0.40: E (up, 7.34, 8.54, up) 763.5 0.60: Q (2.135, 6.14, 7.34, up) 1105.5 0.80: R (0.935, 4.94, 6.14, down) 1105.5 1.735: Q (2.135, 2.705, 3.905, down) 1447.5 3.87: Q (2.135, up, 0.77, down) 1789.5 4.07: W (0.935, 8.54, up, down) 2050.5 4.27: E (up, 7.34, 8.54, down) 2211 4.47: Q (2.135, 6.14, 7.34, down) 2553 6.605: Q (2.135, 3.005, 4.205, down) 2895 8.74: Q (2.135, up, 1.07, down) 3237 8.94: W (0.935, 8.54, up, down) 3498 9.14: E (up, 7.34, 8.54, down) 3658.5 9.34: Q (last spell) 4000.5
by 1.735, Frozen Heart has passed RoA. RoA passes again at 2.67, but then FH passes again at 3.87 and never looks back. Note that I cut RoA a lot of breaks here, using extra E hits for more AP scaling and counting it as full charged right off the bat. Not to mention as your mana goes up, FH scales way way way way harder due to all the extra spell casts.
holy thats some good work here. I dont understand it completely though. Basicly the longer the fight the better is FH ok.
For me that means I get boots, cata, tear, glacial shroud and after that I upgrade roa. the upgrade from glacial shroud into FH doesnt seem to be that efficient since you gain only a little bit of mana and 5% cdr for about 1.2k gold.
On October 01 2011 05:23 clickrush wrote: holy thats some good work here. I dont understand it completely though. Basicly the longer the fight the better is FH ok.
For me that means I get boots, cata, tear, glacial shroud and after that I upgrade roa. the upgrade from glacial shroud into FH doesnt seem to be that efficient since you gain only a little bit of mana and 5% cdr for about 1.2k gold.
what it means that RoA is better than frozen heart if you run in circles for 10 minutes then 1 shot someone with your first spell
On October 01 2011 05:23 clickrush wrote: For me that means I get boots, cata, tear, glacial shroud and after that I upgrade roa. the upgrade from glacial shroud into FH doesnt seem to be that efficient since you gain only a little bit of mana and 5% cdr for about 1.2k gold.
Upgrading RoA after Glacial is way too late. Considering that cata+tear+glacial is ~4k gold, which is what you should be expecting to see around the 20 minute mark, you won't upgrade RoA till about 25 minutes, meaning it won't charge till about 35 minutes. Seeing as big fights happen during that 10 minute period, when other AP carries have DCap+working on Void and when AD carries have IE+working on LW/PD, charging RoA through that period is not ideal.
And the main draw of the FHeart upgrade is the aura, which is extremely good in team-fights vs common triple-physical teams (AD bot, bruiser top, bruiser jungle).
playing ryze these days I don't even bother with a RoA half the time. The AP is almost useless and you get similar mana stats and better survivability by just getting frozen heart and banshees veil. My typical core goes sapphire - boots - tear - catalyst/glacial shroud (which one first depends on team comp) - tier 2 boots - frozen heart/veil depending on team comp. From their I either fill out my items with a void staff if they are stacking MR, archangel's staff if I just need the damage ouput or RoA as a catch-all survivability/damage output item. A late-game rod may sound odd, but the base stats are still more efficient than any other item you could be buying and mid-game/early late-game veil/heart just do so much more for ryze.
On October 03 2011 01:43 wei2coolman wrote: This is my build: Tears of Godess->Boots->catalyst->catalyst->archangel staff->RoA->Banshee veil (or another RoA)->Frozen Heart->Archangel staff.
If I feel the game is probably going to end midgame, instead of late game. I'll just build 1 tears of godess, and 1 boots, and 4 catalysts.
i approve, i think every1 should build ryze this way all the time
hint: drop tear for catalyst too and you'll be gold
On October 03 2011 01:43 wei2coolman wrote: This is my build: Tears of Godess->Boots->catalyst->catalyst->archangel staff->RoA->Banshee veil (or another RoA)->Frozen Heart->Archangel staff.
If I feel the game is probably going to end midgame, instead of late game. I'll just build 1 tears of godess, and 1 boots, and 4 catalysts.
i approve, i think every1 should build ryze this way all the time
hint: drop tear for catalyst too and you'll be gold
Well I got tears, because magi pendent (mana regen) is a must need early game, allows to stay in lane forever.
I find this to be optimal - Tear->speed1 boots -> glacial shroud ->negatron cloak and finish boots ->frozen heart ->banshee's veil If the game lasts long enough :2x rod of ages, or 1 RoA and void staff ->finish archangel
Has anyone tried getting revolver for spell vamp. I tried a couple of games with it & found it really synergizes well with ur ult and allows u to 1v2 people easy & be really effective in team fights
Does anyone have any tips on how to beat a Brand/Anivia in mid? Everytime I've gone Ryze (despite being limited) I'm up against a Brand/Anivia. I just get raped by their range and pushing power zzz
On October 17 2011 13:29 TacToSs wrote: Does anyone have any tips on how to beat a Brand/Anivia in mid? Everytime I've gone Ryze (despite being limited) I'm up against a Brand/Anivia. I just get raped by their range and pushing power zzz
for brand, i usually go boots/3pots instead of crystal simply to dodge his pillar. anivia is kinda the same but you can usually dodge her snowball without boots. also note brand/anivia stun is the ONLY thing that can zone you. With equal health, they cannot beat you in a 1v1 without their stun. Your consistent damage is just too high (QWQEQRQ) and the burst sustain from your ult will seal the deal. So your mindset shouldn't be trying to out-poke them but trying to force a 1v1 engagement where their stun is on cd.
also if they have a full minion wave when you engage, throwing your ulted E at the minions instead of your opponent will give you a shit ton of health.
On October 17 2011 13:29 TacToSs wrote: Does anyone have any tips on how to beat a Brand/Anivia in mid? Everytime I've gone Ryze (despite being limited) I'm up against a Brand/Anivia. I just get raped by their range and pushing power zzz
Post-nerf Brand has lower/equal range than you (625 range on his E, compared to your 675 range Q/E and 625 range W)--at least on his full combo. If you're eating Qs/Ws at long range for free, then you need to get better at dodging them.
Anivia you should crush pre-6, simply because of how she shouldn't be able to land Q reliably, and you can just Q her out of lane. If you over-commit, you might put yourself in a situation where she can Q->E combo you, but honestly, hitting Anivia Q without some sort of lead-off slow/stun (e.g. her W/R) really shouldn't happen if you have boots. Post-6 she can afk-push, but will run out of mana quickly, particularly if you were able to keep her off her Catalyst. If she gets a blue buff, you need to get one yourself, and then you can pretty much just stalemate it by using Q/W for last-hits under tower.
Since Neo started the discussion on the new masteries, and he put up the ones he would use for Ryze, it prompted me to try him again and he's pretty good. Would you recommend any changes to my items? I go: Tears > Sorc shoes > Glacial > Catalyst > Frozen Heart > BV > RoA > Archangles > Deathcap
Also, what's the optimal combo?
EDIT: From the math above it seems RoA is better before BV
On November 16 2011 08:14 Lorken wrote: Since Neo started the discussion on the new masteries, and he put up the ones he would use for Ryze, it prompted me to try him again and he's pretty good. Would you recommend any changes to my items? I go: Tears > Sorc shoes > Glacial > Catalyst > Frozen Heart > BV > RoA > Archangles > Deathcap
Also, what's the optimal combo?
EDIT: From the math above it seems RoA is better before BV
i generally like a tanky ryze and like to take advantage of his spellvamp on his ulti so i go tears>boots>cata>either merc treads or glacial>the other item you didn't get > hextech revolver > now bv or frozen heart> the other one>wota>void staff > AA
You honestly can get these items in whatever order but that's a general order
so... final AA,Merctreads, WOTA, void staff,BV,frozen heart now you are super strong tanky ryze!
I feel as if there are better alternatives to WotA, especially if there's someone else on your team that uses AP.
I usually go Sapphire -> Catalyst/Tear (depends if I can get away with being squishy as fuck for an extra 10 minutes) -> Boots -> Tear/Catalyst (whichever you didn't get) -> Glacial Shroud -> Banshee's -> Rod of Ages (the mana and HP on this item simply can't be ignored) -> Frozen Heart -> Void Staff -> Archangel's Staff
I prefer Sorcerer's Shoes, if you get hit by much CC as Ryze you are fucked anyways, I feel you have to rely on your Veil and good positioning. I could see selling the Shoes after you have Void in favor of Merc Treads, I guess. I kind of like selling for Swifties in real long games.
Why do you get Catalyst before Glacial? I like getting it first because of the cooldown reduction I can let the other mage have Blue. Rod of ages has a really nice mana amount though.
On November 16 2011 15:26 Lorken wrote: Why do you get Catalyst before Glacial? I like getting it first because of the cooldown reduction I can let the other mage have Blue. Rod of ages has a really nice mana amount though.
Assuming you're going mid against another AP, you're probably going to need health, not armor. Against aggressive laners like Kass, Akali, etc, you don't want to be squishy.
On November 16 2011 15:26 Lorken wrote: Why do you get Catalyst before Glacial? I like getting it first because of the cooldown reduction I can let the other mage have Blue. Rod of ages has a really nice mana amount though.
Because Catalyst is one of the strongest laning items in the game?
If you're absolutely crushing your lane opponent mid, then you probably get Glacial first. But in a close game, you shouldn't be winning so hard that you can afford to spend 700 gold on armor (which is going to be next to useless in AP carry matchups), instead of buying a strong lane sustain item.
If you go Glacial Shroud first against a standard AP that will go DRings into Catalyst, they will have about 1800 hp at the time you have 1100 hp, and the 700 gold you spent on Armor is useless against them. If it's someone like Morgana that has a shield on top of that, she pretty much has twice your effective health, and you just can't trade with them.
I see, I think I get it because nobody helps me get blue or they steal it and go "oh woops" Ryze is probably one of the funnest heroes I've played though. Last night I went battle after battle until I had used up all my mana, felt so baller.
so...I was mid against a Gragas last night and I felt like I couldn't match his sustaining ability at all. He'd harass the shit out of me with barrels and I couldn't trade with him efficiently or dodge the barrels. I ended up farming under tower too often because he'd push the lane hard so I had to q for last hits and ran oom a lot. Our jungler came for a gank but he just flash/body slammed away. I finally died to a Ult/Barrel/Body Slam combo but managed to get a kill in return when I came back because he didn't b. By this point I was at half of his cs and he dominated the game.
How I should I approach this match-up? Go for boots before tears to help dodge barrels? Go Catalyst first and try to force him out of lane? Boots then Catalyst?
On November 18 2011 04:29 Hyren wrote: so...I was mid against a Gragas last night and I felt like I couldn't match his sustaining ability at all. He'd harass the shit out of me with barrels and I couldn't trade with him efficiently or dodge the barrels. I ended up farming under tower too often because he'd push the lane hard so I had to q for last hits and ran oom a lot. Our jungler came for a gank but he just flash/body slammed away. I finally died to a Ult/Barrel/Body Slam combo but managed to get a kill in return when I came back because he didn't b. By this point I was at half of his cs and he dominated the game.
How I should I approach this match-up? Go for boots before tears to help dodge barrels? Go Catalyst first and try to force him out of lane? Boots then Catalyst?
Boots into cata probably, what you want to do is be very careful about positioning, don't let him hit the creep wave and you at the same time with barrels. All you have to do is dodge a ton and wait for him to miss a barrel, then instantly go in when its on cooldown and hit him with a combo or a poke. If he is playing very aggressive and body slamming you even then when you go up then you can save w for last and not allow him to hit you with it, or if you are low on mana just make sure you try to go in for the combo while standing near as many creeps as you can. Body slam splits damage between all near targets to the one hit, so if you aren't alone when he hits you with it you will take drastically less damage, then you can use the fact that he charged so far forward to hit him with another Q or combo while he retreats.
Its still gonna be rough because he has good sustain and much longer barrel range than any of your skills. Definitely open boots.
However, since Frozen Heart is a staple on Ryze and Blue buff typically goes on him too, you technically could skip on CDR in masteries and end up with:
You'd hit Magic Pen, Mana, Spell Vamp and essential survivability masteries early up on Def tree.
Grabbing Neo's post from the S2 masteries thread so I don't lose track of it. What's the consensus on swapping out Mental Force's flat AP from T1 offense for stronger auto-attacks via Butcher/Brute Force/the Ignite portion of Summoner's Wrath? While I certainly need to improve my last-hitting, as Ryze I feel I'm under a lot more pressure to farm under my tower with all the Morgana/Malzahar/Sion wave-pushing shenanigans currently seen in mid.
Yeah I took the minion damage and attack damage masteries for Ryze. One of Ryze's biggest weaknesses is being pushed into the tower and losing CS, so the easier last hitting is much better than 3-4 AP.
I'm having troubles laning against swain.. too much that it seems that he's a counter to ryze :-( I read some tips like buy and early negatron cloack, harass him before level 6, use ignite on him, etc.. Although these tips have made it a littlbe bit (and just a little bit) easier, I have so much troubles, am I right? Is swain counter to ryze?
On November 26 2011 00:47 TiBe wrote: I'm having troubles laning against swain.. too much that it seems that he's a counter to ryze :-( I read some tips like buy and early negatron cloack, harass him before level 6, use ignite on him, etc.. Although these tips have made it a littlbe bit (and just a little bit) easier, I have so much troubles, am I right? Is swain counter to ryze?
Well, he outsustains you hard. Neither of you can push very well, so it comes down to harassment/trades, at which swain will beat you.
Anticipate and dodge the nevermove and break the tether from the bird (in short, try to avoid eating his full combo. If his spells are on cooldown, try to move in and hit him with your full combo. Don't try to whittle him down, because that just plays into swains strength, nuke him when you can and other than that stay safe and try to just keep farming. Go for a quick banshees veil, which should help you a lot fighting him.
Edit: If you want to troll him, take cleanse or build a quicksilver sash, which remove his torment and ignite, so his nuke won't be very scary. But I'd recommend using the banshees veil, since its way more useful.
Perhaps he got nerfed relatively to other casters, (who can benefit from the new offense tree more), but I think the new masteries overall are probably just as good for him as ever.
On November 27 2011 03:21 Woony wrote: I think I've heard Regi say that Ryze got nerfed by the new masteries & is not that good anymore in comparison to others. What do you guys think?
sounds about right. utility tree is complete shit.
He gets more from 9 points in util than he did before. The other masteries were largely marginal on him anyway. Movespeed is still there, summoner cdr is OK, 5% exp is meh, etc. He doesn't get all the free AP from offense like the other casters.
On November 27 2011 03:21 Woony wrote: I think I've heard Regi say that Ryze got nerfed by the new masteries & is not that good anymore in comparison to others. What do you guys think?
sounds about right. utility tree is complete shit.
i wouldn't listen to anything reginald says theorycraft-wise
On November 27 2011 03:21 Woony wrote: I think I've heard Regi say that Ryze got nerfed by the new masteries & is not that good anymore in comparison to others. What do you guys think?
sounds about right. utility tree is complete shit.
i wouldn't listen to anything reginald says theorycraft-wise
Regarding the new masteries... Ryze got a tiny little baby nerf, whereas every other caster got a small buff.
This doesn't mean ryze is bad now. Ryze is still awesome.
On November 27 2011 03:21 Woony wrote: I think I've heard Regi say that Ryze got nerfed by the new masteries & is not that good anymore in comparison to others. What do you guys think?
sounds about right. utility tree is complete shit.
i wouldn't listen to anything reginald says theorycraft-wise
Regarding the new masteries... Ryze got a tiny little baby nerf, whereas every other caster got a small buff.
This doesn't mean ryze is bad now. Ryze is still awesome.
That, pretty much. No more going into defense (mres!) for Strength of Spirit (and nine offense helping him out more) and the increased AP at early levels on rival casters means I'm finding it increasingly difficult to justify mana blues over magic resistance, though. Even though it's only 3%, the spellvamp from Utility combined with WotA and Desperate Power is fairly hilarious combined with his tanky itemisation.
On November 27 2011 03:21 Woony wrote: I think I've heard Regi say that Ryze got nerfed by the new masteries & is not that good anymore in comparison to others. What do you guys think?
sounds about right. utility tree is complete shit.
i wouldn't listen to anything reginald says theorycraft-wise
Regarding the new masteries... Ryze got a tiny little baby nerf, whereas every other caster got a small buff.
This doesn't mean ryze is bad now. Ryze is still awesome.
That, pretty much. No more going into defense (mres!) for Strength of Spirit (and nine offense helping him out more) and the increased AP at early levels on rival casters means I'm finding it increasingly difficult to justify mana blues over magic resistance, though. Even though it's only 3%, the spellvamp from Utility combined with WotA and Desperate Power is fairly hilarious combined with his tanky itemisation.
what about something like 9/15/3 on Ryze? Just go even more tanky, picking up the HP masteries, basic defense, and Enlightenment so you max CDR at level 13+frozen heart? (3 points left over... Havoc or w/e you want)
On November 27 2011 03:21 Woony wrote: I think I've heard Regi say that Ryze got nerfed by the new masteries & is not that good anymore in comparison to others. What do you guys think?
sounds about right. utility tree is complete shit.
i wouldn't listen to anything reginald says theorycraft-wise
Regarding the new masteries... Ryze got a tiny little baby nerf, whereas every other caster got a small buff.
This doesn't mean ryze is bad now. Ryze is still awesome.
That, pretty much. No more going into defense (mres!) for Strength of Spirit (and nine offense helping him out more) and the increased AP at early levels on rival casters means I'm finding it increasingly difficult to justify mana blues over magic resistance, though. Even though it's only 3%, the spellvamp from Utility combined with WotA and Desperate Power is fairly hilarious combined with his tanky itemisation.
what about something like 9/15/3 on Ryze? Just go even more tanky, picking up the HP masteries, basic defense, and Enlightenment so you max CDR at level 13+frozen heart? (3 points left over... Havoc or w/e you want)
If you're not taking defense all the way to 21, 9/0/21 is better than 9/x/y. Buff duration, mana regen, and summoner CDR are all way stronger masteries than a lot of the mid-tier defense stuff.
On November 27 2011 03:21 Woony wrote: I think I've heard Regi say that Ryze got nerfed by the new masteries & is not that good anymore in comparison to others. What do you guys think?
sounds about right. utility tree is complete shit.
i wouldn't listen to anything reginald says theorycraft-wise
Regarding the new masteries... Ryze got a tiny little baby nerf, whereas every other caster got a small buff.
This doesn't mean ryze is bad now. Ryze is still awesome.
That, pretty much. No more going into defense (mres!) for Strength of Spirit (and nine offense helping him out more) and the increased AP at early levels on rival casters means I'm finding it increasingly difficult to justify mana blues over magic resistance, though. Even though it's only 3%, the spellvamp from Utility combined with WotA and Desperate Power is fairly hilarious combined with his tanky itemisation.
what about something like 9/15/3 on Ryze? Just go even more tanky, picking up the HP masteries, basic defense, and Enlightenment so you max CDR at level 13+frozen heart? (3 points left over... Havoc or w/e you want)
If you're not taking defense all the way to 21, 9/0/21 is better than 9/x/y. Buff duration, mana regen, and summoner CDR are all way stronger masteries than a lot of the mid-tier defense stuff.
On most champions, I would agree with you, but Ryze has such a terrible early game that having that extra bit of defense in the lower levels might be more valuable than 9/0/21. Also, if you were to go deep(ish) into the Def tree you'd have more room for Mana Yellows/Blues if you desired them.
On November 27 2011 03:21 Woony wrote: I think I've heard Regi say that Ryze got nerfed by the new masteries & is not that good anymore in comparison to others. What do you guys think?
sounds about right. utility tree is complete shit.
i wouldn't listen to anything reginald says theorycraft-wise
Regarding the new masteries... Ryze got a tiny little baby nerf, whereas every other caster got a small buff.
This doesn't mean ryze is bad now. Ryze is still awesome.
That, pretty much. No more going into defense (mres!) for Strength of Spirit (and nine offense helping him out more) and the increased AP at early levels on rival casters means I'm finding it increasingly difficult to justify mana blues over magic resistance, though. Even though it's only 3%, the spellvamp from Utility combined with WotA and Desperate Power is fairly hilarious combined with his tanky itemisation.
what about something like 9/15/3 on Ryze? Just go even more tanky, picking up the HP masteries, basic defense, and Enlightenment so you max CDR at level 13+frozen heart? (3 points left over... Havoc or w/e you want)
If you're not taking defense all the way to 21, 9/0/21 is better than 9/x/y. Buff duration, mana regen, and summoner CDR are all way stronger masteries than a lot of the mid-tier defense stuff.
I dunno I think the low-tier defense tree is way better than the utility tree. Enlight and Intel are basically the same (intel slightly better for its early game, ends up not mattering late game where either way you're maxed post-FH) so you're comparing
MR/Armor, health per level, veteran's scars, and havoc with 15% summoner CDR, 3MP5, 3% spellvamp, and only 6 points to split between greed, wealth, awareness.
Havoc is better on casters than it is on physical - and it keeps ryze's damage competitive with other APs I feel. (5 damage to a 300 damage Q isnt that bad - that would be ~7 AP if he had annie's ratios.)
On November 27 2011 14:25 sylverfyre wrote: MR/Armor, health per level, veteran's scars, and havoc with 15% summoner CDR, 3MP5, 3% spellvamp, and only 6 points to split between greed, wealth, awareness.
Havoc is better on casters than it is on physical - and it keeps ryze's damage competitive with other APs I feel. (5 damage to a 300 damage Q isnt that bad - that would be ~7 AP if he had annie's ratios.)
I think Utility wins out in that comparison. Meditation has extremely good gold value per point compared to the low tier defense stat masteries. You're also underrating 15% summoner CDR a lot, IMO.
On November 27 2011 14:25 sylverfyre wrote: MR/Armor, health per level, veteran's scars, and havoc with 15% summoner CDR, 3MP5, 3% spellvamp, and only 6 points to split between greed, wealth, awareness.
Havoc is better on casters than it is on physical - and it keeps ryze's damage competitive with other APs I feel. (5 damage to a 300 damage Q isnt that bad - that would be ~7 AP if he had annie's ratios.)
I think Utility wins out in that comparison. Meditation has extremely good gold value per point compared to the low tier defense stat masteries. You're also underrating 15% summoner CDR a lot, IMO.
Actually i feel like the only things im putting value on in my mind are 15% summoner CDR and mana regen. Greed is mediocre, wealth is crap, and awareness is hard to value.
I can't count the amount of times where I flash on the other guy, forcing him to flash, then you have yours back up before him and kill in that window.
In what order to you guys get your items nowadays? I often find myself stuck with a bunch of early/midgame items that I built accordingly to the matchup. I often go top with Ryze these days and hence usually rush glacial. Depending on how the lane goes, catalyst->tear when I am behind or tear->catalyst when equal or ahead. I throw in Mercs most of the time, get my WotA and eventually (if the enemy teamcomp didn't require it beforehand) FH/BV.
I just started playing Ryze a lot and I wonder if that's the right way to build him. If it's relevant: 9/0/21, MPen reds, HP/lvl yellows, Mana/lvl Glyphs, flat Mana quints.
On November 28 2011 09:08 Shiv. wrote: In what order to you guys get your items nowadays? I often find myself stuck with a bunch of early/midgame items that I built accordingly to the matchup. I often go top with Ryze these days and hence usually rush glacial. Depending on how the lane goes, catalyst->tear when I am behind or tear->catalyst when equal or ahead. I throw in Mercs most of the time, get my WotA and eventually (if the enemy teamcomp didn't require it beforehand) FH/BV.
I just started playing Ryze a lot and I wonder if that's the right way to build him. If it's relevant: 9/0/21, MPen reds, HP/lvl yellows, Mana/lvl Glyphs, flat Mana quints.
I don't get the point of scaling runes on Ryze. Ryze is at his weakest in the early game and is an absolute monster when fully-geared. I feel as if you want every advantage you can get early game so that you can reach your tipping point as quickly and easily as possible.
Scaling Glyphs will give you 126 more mana at level 18, which is pretty meaningless. The extra mana from flat runes at lower levels seems much better to me.
Thats basically what I was messing with, but I really want to get those points into meditation so I have enough mana to use plenty of skills in the early laning
i never understood why people want points in meditation for ryze. 3 points is a lot and 3 mregen on him feels like nothing tbh. i just go 0-21-9 and it feels great that or 0-9-21. mana per level yellow mpen red flat mana blue ms quint.
On November 28 2011 19:37 wussleeQ wrote: i never understood why people want points in meditation for ryze. 3 points is a lot and 3 mregen on him feels like nothing tbh. i just go 0-21-9 and it feels great that or 0-9-21. mana per level yellow mpen red flat mana blue ms quint.
Personally its very noticable early game, you often end up vs champs who push the lane far harder than you can and being able to use Q to last hit under the tower longer directly results in better CS. Sure later you don't care, but most masteries barely effect anything later game.
On November 28 2011 19:37 wussleeQ wrote: i never understood why people want points in meditation for ryze. 3 points is a lot and 3 mregen on him feels like nothing tbh. i just go 0-21-9 and it feels great that or 0-9-21. mana per level yellow mpen red flat mana blue ms quint.
Personally its very noticable early game, you often end up vs champs who push the lane far harder than you can and being able to use Q to last hit under the tower longer directly results in better CS. Sure later you don't care, but most masteries barely effect anything later game.
Pretty much this. Also: how do you justify 9 points in defense over 9 in offense?
Does anybody else feel like he never does well on Ryze? I smartcast, I charge my tear like a mofo and farm all game but I still never feel like im doing really well.
On November 29 2011 03:52 Woony wrote: Does anybody else feel like he never does well on Ryze? I smartcast, I charge my tear like a mofo and farm all game but I still never feel like im doing really well.
Its probably just a question of positioning, I feel OP as hell playing ryze because I can instantly punish the slightest overextension and completely negate all the damage their melee does in teamfights. Just work on coming from a slightly odd angle in teamfights, not super aggressive but just enough to land your snare when they don't want to be snared, and also practice your kiting. With smartcast and decent kiting characters like riven and garen with huge damage and armor will come after you and you just laugh as they cant touch you and realize they cant disengage either.
The only aspect Ryze doesn't feel strong as is in 1v1 situations with AP, or AD carries in the earlier game, as his best skill has really no effect on them.
On November 28 2011 19:12 R04R wrote: transfer the 3 points from havoc to meditation then. havoc isn't very point efficient, while meditation is.
the 3rd point in enlightenment will put ryze over cdr cap when he has level 5 Q and frozen heart
The third point reaches CDR cap when you're level 13 with Q5 and Frozen Heart. If you don't get it, you're not CDR capped even at level 18, which seems silly. 13 is probably about when you're finishing frozen heart anyway (assuming tear -> catalyst + glacial -> FH + Banshee) and you're probably using blue once or twice between levels 7-13, and CDR isn't making a huge difference before level 5, where you're mostly just throwing out a Q or QWQ and not going into an extended spellchain because your mana can't handle it yet. If your FH is delayed past 12 for whatever reason, then Enlightenment helps more than Intel would, but only marginally so.
The biggest deal is whether you want to be more meaty, or if you want summoner CDR. Mana regen is kinda... ok. I still don't have mana/level Seals, and I'm not sure they'd be that much better than mana regen. 200 mana is decent, but an extra mana crystal AT 18 when you have 4k+ mana feels a little underwhelming.
Addendum:
Wouldn't ROA instead of banshee's veil be a good idea vs a team that you don't hugely need to stack MR vs, and/or that will just poke off your banshee easily? The additional health can easily match the 1 unblocked spell, and you get quite a lot of additional mana once ROA charges up, too, as well as AP that affects your W and E in not ENTIRELY negligible ways.
On November 29 2011 03:52 Woony wrote: Does anybody else feel like he never does well on Ryze? I smartcast, I charge my tear like a mofo and farm all game but I still never feel like im doing really well.
Its probably just a question of positioning, I feel OP as hell playing ryze because I can instantly punish the slightest overextension and completely negate all the damage their melee does in teamfights. Just work on coming from a slightly odd angle in teamfights, not super aggressive but just enough to land your snare when they don't want to be snared, and also practice your kiting. With smartcast and decent kiting characters like riven and garen with huge damage and armor will come after you and you just laugh as they cant touch you and realize they cant disengage either.
The only aspect Ryze doesn't feel strong as is in 1v1 situations with AP, or AD carries in the earlier game, as his best skill has really no effect on them.
I'm probably just too agressive I'm always like "Im Ryze I can't die and do infinite damages" and then I overestimate how much damage I can take and die TT
Ok, so just played a game as Ryze. Started the game off poorly, getting dominated by Orianna mid. I got a few assists off ganks, but i went about 3-6 in the early game.
On November 28 2011 19:37 wussleeQ wrote: i never understood why people want points in meditation for ryze. 3 points is a lot and 3 mregen on him feels like nothing tbh. i just go 0-21-9 and it feels great that or 0-9-21. mana per level yellow mpen red flat mana blue ms quint.
Personally its very noticable early game, you often end up vs champs who push the lane far harder than you can and being able to use Q to last hit under the tower longer directly results in better CS. Sure later you don't care, but most masteries barely effect anything later game.
Pretty much this. Also: how do you justify 9 points in defense over 9 in offense?
Extra mr and a lot more health early on will help you win your lane. 4 ap and 10% mpen makes for a small difference. people underestimate sometimes how much a bit of MR can do in a lane i believe. damage is sufficient enough so that all i need for mpen is reds early game and voidstaff later on. just my opinion.
i've gone 16-3 with 0-9-21 and 3-1-8 vs a cass going 0-21-9 masteries. of course this is only at 1600's so my advice should be taken with a grain of salt (is that how that saying goes?)
also. it should be easy to last hit for ryze esp under tower. i don't know. personally, i don't really run into mana problems unless i'm going against a big pusher like morg but i always ban her :l
but for most cases... if i find myself being pushed i will one shot every caster minion to cs better under tower, Q whenever the other person is trying to cs (if he goes in farther combo him QWQEQ auto attacking him also when you can, you should win trades in most cases) and also try to push lane with autoattacks to keep it about even or as even as possible.
On November 28 2011 19:37 wussleeQ wrote: i never understood why people want points in meditation for ryze. 3 points is a lot and 3 mregen on him feels like nothing tbh. i just go 0-21-9 and it feels great that or 0-9-21. mana per level yellow mpen red flat mana blue ms quint.
Personally its very noticable early game, you often end up vs champs who push the lane far harder than you can and being able to use Q to last hit under the tower longer directly results in better CS. Sure later you don't care, but most masteries barely effect anything later game.
Pretty much this. Also: how do you justify 9 points in defense over 9 in offense?
Extra mr and a lot more health early on will help you win your lane. 4 ap and 10% mpen makes for a small difference. people underestimate sometimes how much a bit of MR can do in a lane i believe. damage is sufficient enough so that all i need for mpen is reds early game and voidstaff later on. just my opinion.
i've gone 16-3 with 0-9-21 and 3-1-8 vs a cass going 0-21-9 masteries. of course this is only at 1600's so my advice should be taken with a grain of salt (is that how that saying goes?)
also. it should be easy to last hit for ryze esp under tower. i don't know. personally, i don't really run into mana problems unless i'm going against a big pusher like morg but i always ban her :l
Mhm, alright. I mostly lane him top these days and I feel the extra MPen is greatly beneficial up there, while MRes does not do all THAT much, depending on the matchup.
I however have been experimenting with 12/15/3 over 9/0/21 and I really like it. I do run into SOME mana problems, though. Would 1,5% damage and .15% CDR/lvl be a worthwile trade for 3MP5? It doesn't seem like much, but IIRC, it's crazy costefficient.
On November 28 2011 19:37 wussleeQ wrote: i never understood why people want points in meditation for ryze. 3 points is a lot and 3 mregen on him feels like nothing tbh. i just go 0-21-9 and it feels great that or 0-9-21. mana per level yellow mpen red flat mana blue ms quint.
Personally its very noticable early game, you often end up vs champs who push the lane far harder than you can and being able to use Q to last hit under the tower longer directly results in better CS. Sure later you don't care, but most masteries barely effect anything later game.
Pretty much this. Also: how do you justify 9 points in defense over 9 in offense?
Extra mr and a lot more health early on will help you win your lane. 4 ap and 10% mpen makes for a small difference. people underestimate sometimes how much a bit of MR can do in a lane i believe. damage is sufficient enough so that all i need for mpen is reds early game and voidstaff later on. just my opinion.
i've gone 16-3 with 0-9-21 and 3-1-8 vs a cass going 0-21-9 masteries. of course this is only at 1600's so my advice should be taken with a grain of salt (is that how that saying goes?)
also. it should be easy to last hit for ryze esp under tower. i don't know. personally, i don't really run into mana problems unless i'm going against a big pusher like morg but i always ban her :l
Mhm, alright. I mostly lane him top these days and I feel the extra MPen is greatly beneficial up there, while MRes does not do all THAT much, depending on the matchup.
I however have been experimenting with 12/15/3 over 9/0/21 and I really like it. I do run into SOME mana problems, though. Would 1,5% damage and .15% CDR/lvl be a worthwile trade for 3MP5? It doesn't seem like much, but IIRC, it's crazy costefficient.
Oh, by the way: yep, that's how this saying goes.
Oh. Okay. Top lane probably would make a huge difference in terms of what masteries to choose lol. I usually just like to build fairly defensive and would probably just get a chain vest -> glacial shroud after getting tears and boots to counter top (this if it's a AD type of champ). I generally play ryze as a tanky dps but going for a more offensive playstyle works too.
I would take 1.5% and .15% cdr over the 3mp5 personally. Like the way I play with most mages, I try to just conserve as much mana as possible and I'd take the damage over the 3mp5.
If anyone is wonder, if I'm mid, I'll usually go tears->boots->cata->merc->negatron or glacial shroud->then whichever one you didn't get-> hextech revolver->now i'll either finish all of my items depending on how the game is going or go voidstaff is there is a lot of MR on the other team. finishing tears last. Final build will be... mercs->frozen heart->BV->AA->WOA->voidstaff or more defense.
I also run exhaust flash because i believe exhaust lets me unload more damage onto the other summoner making me a much stronger 1v1 champ and ignite is more useful to just finish people off.
On November 29 2011 10:40 Bwaaaa wrote: So if you run flat mana runes on everything except reds(magic pen) you only get 20 extra damage on your Q is this worth it?
Do people generally go 0/21/9 on Ryze now? I feel like initator and the CDR/level defensive masteries are too good to pass up...you lose a bit of movespeed when <70% health, and some magic penetration if you were to go offensive, but I'm not really seeing a big downside here... you're crazy tanky early on making it really hard to lose your lane. I do that then go magic resist/level glyphs and then trash AP casters. :>
Ive been playing 9/0/21. Taking spell penetration/CDR in offense, and then spell vamp/CDR/mana masteries in ult. The reasoning is pretty simple - with those CDR masteries and a frozen heart you reach 40% CDR cap. Also gives you some extra mana regen which is incredibly helpful in the early laning phase and when you want to start building up your tear. Spell vamp is sweet for Ryze, so thats a nice mastery to take. The change back to %health regen based on mana is awesome for Ryze too. By using these masteries and buying a frozen heart, you reach the CDR cap (necessary imo) and get some pretty useful mana/health regen, whilst still holding onto the offensive spell pen and getting some other useful utility stuff (gold on kill, buff duration, spell vamp, movement).
Now the real question - is it worth picking up some spell vamp quints, to play spell vamp quints + magic pen reds + flat mana yellow/blues... Or just continue with my boring flat health quints... mhmm
Oops, forgot they brought back Strength of Spirit. You get ~38% CDR with Frozen Heart and defensive cooldown masteries, if you go 9/21/0 you'd hit cap easily too. But then you miss out on the extra mana and a bit of movespeed. My experience has been initiator is pretty crazy useful- I'm usually running around near full health from the ultimate, and if you have a sustain support that's even more the case. You catch someone slightly out of position and you can win a team fight in a blink of an eye.
I run movespeed quints though. I'm kind of tempted to pick up spell vamp quints, but I actually think they'd be a bit overkill in most laning situations... useful for team fights no doubt.
The way i look at spell vamp quints... Well, Ryze is known for his typically weak early laning phase, which is why I personally gear everything to improving that, seeing as his best item build consists of tanky late game items. And, spell vamp is quite useful in longer team fights, which can sometimes be the case with fights involving Ryze. Havent actually got the quints, so i have no idea how it would ACTUALLY be, but on paper it looks tasty...
From a purely laning standpoint, Spellvamp quints aren't going to be better than choosing the appropriate resist quints for your lane opponent (armor quints vs. physical, mr quints vs. magical).
My friend has this build that alleviate his weak early game.
It's called Tear + Boot + 3 mana crystals
One crystal eventually becomes catalyst -> Banshee One crystal eventually becomes frozen heart One crystal eventually becomes rod of ages
You have so much early game mana it's insane damage right off the bat. Build 2 catalyst for tankiness. It's really a LOT better than aiming for 1 final item, when you can sit with 4 intermediate item each of which give you massive mana
Ok first of all, you don't want to build rod of ages on ryze. Even if you did, thats really late and it won't be stacked. Wota is much better. Also you want a catalyst asap after tear because its one of the best laning items in the game and keeps you from exploding in fights. So that 3 mana crystal thing not gonna work out so well.
On December 20 2011 07:49 evanthebouncy! wrote: My friend has this build that alleviate his weak early game.
It's called Tear + Boot + 3 mana crystals
One crystal eventually becomes catalyst -> Banshee One crystal eventually becomes frozen heart One crystal eventually becomes rod of ages
You have so much early game mana it's insane damage right off the bat. Build 2 catalyst for tankiness. It's really a LOT better than aiming for 1 final item, when you can sit with 4 intermediate item each of which give you massive mana
His early game is weak because he's not tanky enough to stay in and cast 30 spells in a row yet. It's not a lack of damage (this build, by the way, doesn't really add THAT much damage, and once you have tear, your mana REGEN is mostly handled for the early game.)
Once you have tear+catalyst, you're not particularly weak anymore, particularly if you get a bluebuff or two in this area to max your CDR pre-heart.
ROA is an OKAY 4th big item on Ryze, but so is WotA. IMO, however, wota is better because at the point where you already have mega good resists, revolver way outshines yet another catalyst (Though HP isn't exactly a bad stat when you're looking at high armor and MR)
On December 20 2011 07:49 evanthebouncy! wrote: My friend has this build that alleviate his weak early game.
It's called Tear + Boot + 3 mana crystals
One crystal eventually becomes catalyst -> Banshee One crystal eventually becomes frozen heart One crystal eventually becomes rod of ages
You have so much early game mana it's insane damage right off the bat. Build 2 catalyst for tankiness. It's really a LOT better than aiming for 1 final item, when you can sit with 4 intermediate item each of which give you massive mana
Ryze has crazy early game damage? He's really not weak at all early game; Only champions that can out-lane him are good harassers that can stay behind their minions.
I always struggle against strong pushers like Morgana, Sion and Brand.
I think my favorite match-up to play is vs Cassiopeia, it's not easy but it's very rewarding and it all comes down to your skill at dodging her Qs vs her skill at aiming them + staying out of your range. Quite fun.
On December 20 2011 09:29 sylverfyre wrote: ROA is an OKAY 4th big item on Ryze, but so is WotA. IMO, however, wota is better because at the point where you already have mega good resists, revolver way outshines yet another catalyst (Though HP isn't exactly a bad stat when you're looking at high armor and MR)
RoA is absolutely terrible as a 4th item on Ryze. Buying it 4th means you never get to finish charging it, which means you don't get to take advantage of the time when it's good. Buying RoA and then having the game be over before you finish charging it is an enormous waste.
If you buy RoA on Ryze, you're basically going to treat it like Warmog's or a gp10 item--eventually the insane cost-effectiveness of it wins out when it's fully charged, but it's not all that amazing for you the moment you buy it. You have to be able to stall out the time it takes for it to charge without giving up too much ground. And as such, you have to buy it early enough for that to be a possibility. If you're getting RoA, it basically has to be immediately after Cata+Tear, so that you can conceivably have it charged by 20-25 minutes. And you can only really afford to do that in the case where you're ahead enough by the time you buy it that you can let it charge without having to give up objectives along the way.
On December 20 2011 11:03 Vaporized wrote: i play many many games with ryze. i built roa for a long time and recently started getting wota instead. there is no question wota is superior.
Yup, same story for me. For a very long time I built Rod, and felt that Ryze was pretty strong. But then I tried WotA, and Ryze is a fucking monster. The spellvamp off of a full spell burst (QWQEQ) is more than the ~700 hp you would have had with a Rod of Ages, and it keeps on coming. WotA makes me feel like I can 1v3 as Ryze and win as long as I'm not stunlocked.
On December 20 2011 11:23 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Why would you build rod over banshees at any point in the game on ryze?
Rod gives more health and mana, and keeps the passive effect of Catalyst.
If you had 7 item slots then Rod of Ages would be the clear choice as 7th item, it's just that there's 6 more items that are even better. Sometimes you might be able to switch your Void Staff for a Rod, but getting a Rod as a last item isn't very good.
or you could just get banshees, glacial, a tear, then just build warmogs thornmail and never die. But wasting slots on shitty items like ROA works too.
On December 20 2011 12:05 Two_DoWn wrote: or you could just get banshees, glacial, a tear, then just build warmogs thornmail and never die. But wasting slots on shitty items like ROA works too.
Eh, what? Rod of Ages gives more mana than any other item in the game except a charged Tear, which you can only have one of. It gives more health than anything other than Warmog's (half as much) and a fully charged Leviathan (lol). The AP is respectable although kind of irrelevant.
I can't think of any situation where I would pick Warmog's over Rod of Ages. Thornmail is a joke on Ryze.
On December 20 2011 12:05 Two_DoWn wrote: or you could just get banshees, glacial, a tear, then just build warmogs thornmail and never die. But wasting slots on shitty items like ROA works too.
Eh, what? Rod of Ages gives more mana than any other item in the game except a charged Tear, which you can only have one of. It gives more health than anything other than Warmog's (half as much) and a fully charged Leviathan (lol). The AP is respectable although kind of irrelevant.
I can't think of any situation where I would pick Warmog's over Rod of Ages. Thornmail is a joke on Ryze.
Because if you are incapable of dying, then you do infinite damage. Same reason why GP doesnt build an IE.
On December 20 2011 12:05 Two_DoWn wrote: or you could just get banshees, glacial, a tear, then just build warmogs thornmail and never die. But wasting slots on shitty items like ROA works too.
Eh, what? Rod of Ages gives more mana than any other item in the game except a charged Tear, which you can only have one of. It gives more health than anything other than Warmog's (half as much) and a fully charged Leviathan (lol). The AP is respectable although kind of irrelevant.
I can't think of any situation where I would pick Warmog's over Rod of Ages. Thornmail is a joke on Ryze.
Because if you are incapable of dying, then you do infinite damage. Same reason why GP doesnt build an IE.
On December 20 2011 12:05 Two_DoWn wrote: or you could just get banshees, glacial, a tear, then just build warmogs thornmail and never die. But wasting slots on shitty items like ROA works too.
Eh, what? Rod of Ages gives more mana than any other item in the game except a charged Tear, which you can only have one of. It gives more health than anything other than Warmog's (half as much) and a fully charged Leviathan (lol). The AP is respectable although kind of irrelevant.
I can't think of any situation where I would pick Warmog's over Rod of Ages. Thornmail is a joke on Ryze.
Because if you are incapable of dying, then you do infinite damage. Same reason why GP doesnt build an IE.
I don't see how an extra 600 hp makes you incapable of dying, especially when you give up 700 mana (which gives you more spellvamped hp) to get it.
Because 700 mana is 56 damage. You want to maximize your damage? Hit another q.
And 600 health becomes an effective 1k+ with resists. The damage you get from the ROA? It only goes down.
You really dont need more than Glacial/tear/banshees. And all of the items that you get scale naturally with health. Its stupid to throw away your build in the vain attempt to do a little bit more damage. RYZE IS NOT A BURST CASTER. You do not play ryze by maximizing his damage in an offensive sense. You maximize his damage the same way you would a bruiser- maximize your ability to survive. You know how you win games of lol? Be the last one alive. If you stack 4k HP on top of the obscene resists you build up naturally you have to be a moron to die in a fight.
On December 20 2011 09:29 sylverfyre wrote: ROA is an OKAY 4th big item on Ryze, but so is WotA. IMO, however, wota is better because at the point where you already have mega good resists, revolver way outshines yet another catalyst (Though HP isn't exactly a bad stat when you're looking at high armor and MR)
RoA is absolutely terrible as a 4th item on Ryze. Buying it 4th means you never get to finish charging it, which means you don't get to take advantage of the time when it's good. Buying RoA and then having the game be over before you finish charging it is an enormous waste.
Going to disagree... going from the catalyst to Rod is only a big deal if you need the AP component- Ryze doesn't really benefit from that nearly as much as other casters. Banshee's Veil lets you start being a major pain in the arse to enemy casters and initiate team fights with little fear. Big freaking deal. Frozen Heart cuts your cooldowns by a ton, makes you super tanky, and makes the entire enemy team attack slower. Considering how many more effective hitpoints you get from the Banshee's Veil/Frozen Heart, I would never, ever buy RoA first on Ryze. There's also the awkward matter of having a blasting wand that doesn't do a whole lot of anything before you convert to a RoA. Do that early game, it is a huge investment. Late game? Eh... not so big a deal.
As far as the Warmogs on Ryze discussion goes, games are going to be long over before you can charge it. I get around 3.1k HP as Ryze getting RoA as a 4th or 5th item if the RoA gets fully charged, which feels like an utter crap ton. Warmogs makes that around 3.7k, but you lose 150ish damage off a round of spells (assuming no repeat bounces on your E). Thornmail is a terrible choice except in a very few circumstances, I can't remember the last time I had severe issues with durability late game. You might say 150 damage is not a big deal, but having enough burst to save your teammates is a much bigger deal than saving your own hide (most of the time).
On December 20 2011 19:30 zer0das wrote: Going to disagree... going from the catalyst to Rod is only a big deal if you need the AP component- Ryze doesn't really benefit from that nearly as much as other casters. Banshee's Veil lets you start being a major pain in the arse to enemy casters and initiate team fights with little fear. Big freaking deal. Frozen Heart cuts your cooldowns by a ton, makes you super tanky, and makes the entire enemy team attack slower. Considering how many more effective hitpoints you get from the Banshee's Veil/Frozen Heart, I would never, ever buy RoA first on Ryze. There's also the awkward matter of having a blasting wand that doesn't do a whole lot of anything before you convert to a RoA. Do that early game, it is a huge investment. Late game? Eh... not so big a deal.
By that same logic, you should be buying HoG/Philo as 5th or 6th item because the investment hurts you less.
If you are getting Rod, you have to get it early, because you need to reliably see a return on your investment. 4th item Rod is pointless. Rod only beats out other items if you can have it fully charged for a long time. If you build Rod at 40 minutes, and the game is over before 50 minutes, then what the hell was the point of buying Rod over an item that's immediately good? Not to mention that, as with other stack/gp10 items, you want to stall out the time when they suck, and let them charge. That's much easier to do at 15-25 minutes. You can't stall fights at the 40 minute mark--the enemy will just take Baron.
And yes I am aware that Rod hurts you a lot immediately early-game, which is why I only recommend it as an all-in-ish buy if you're way ahead. You're going to suck balls for most of those 10 minutes where Rod is charging. It's worth it if you get to play with fully charged Rod for 20+ minutes, because of how much shit it gives you. But there is zero point in buying 4th item Rod, because 90% of the time, you won't even get to see it finish charging, which means you get zero return on your investment.
EDIT: I'm very amused by the fact that you think a game will be over before you get to finish charging Warmog's, when it really doesn't charge any slower than RoA.
The upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst costs 850. For that, you get 160hp, 200 mana and 20 ability power, plus 18hp, 20 mana and 2 AP every minute for 10 minutes. At 0 stacks the gold value is 420+400+435=1255. Buying a Rod of Ages is not like buying GP/5 at all...
On December 21 2011 00:16 Alzadar wrote: The upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst costs 850. For that, you get 160hp, 200 mana and 20 ability power, plus 18hp, 20 mana and 2 AP every minute for 10 minutes. At 0 stacks the gold value is 420+400+435=1255. Buying a Rod of Ages is not like buying GP/5 at all...
On a normal AP it isn't. It is on Ryze when you consider that the AP is worth significantly less than its gold value on him. You need to convert the value of the AP to equivalent mana value, because otherwise you're over-valuing the AP. Obviously Rod looks good when you pretend Ryze is making just as much use out of it as any other AP caster, but he isn't.
You also can't look at the upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst, because Ryze would never buy Blasting Wand if he weren't getting Rod. You have to treat Wand+Rod upgrade as a single buy in that regard. You get 160 hp + 200 mana + 60 AP for 1710. That 60 AP is equivalent to about another 200 mana for Ryze in terms of damage output, so basically your immediate gain is equivalent to 160 HP + 400 mana, which is worth ~1220 gold. 500 gold behind the curve, but fully stacked RoA pulls significantly ahead.
On December 21 2011 00:16 Alzadar wrote: The upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst costs 850. For that, you get 160hp, 200 mana and 20 ability power, plus 18hp, 20 mana and 2 AP every minute for 10 minutes. At 0 stacks the gold value is 420+400+435=1255. Buying a Rod of Ages is not like buying GP/5 at all...
On a normal AP it isn't. It is on Ryze when you consider that the AP is worth significantly less than its gold value on him. You need to convert the value of the AP to equivalent mana value, because otherwise you're over-valuing the AP. Obviously Rod looks good when you pretend Ryze is making just as much use out of it as any other AP caster, but he isn't.
You also can't look at the upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst, because Ryze would never buy Blasting Wand if he weren't getting Rod. You have to treat Wand+Rod upgrade as a single buy in that regard. You get 160 hp + 200 mana + 60 AP for 1710. That 60 AP is equivalent to about another 200 mana for Ryze in terms of damage output, so basically your immediate gain is equivalent to 160 HP + 400 mana, which is worth ~1220 gold. 500 gold behind the curve, but fully stacked RoA pulls significantly ahead.
You'd be buying a Blasting Wand anyway at that point in the game because you need it for either an Archangel's Staff, a Void Staff or a Rod of Ages.
On December 21 2011 00:33 Alzadar wrote: You'd be buying a Blasting Wand anyway at that point in the game because you need it for either an Archangel's Staff, a Void Staff or a Rod of Ages.
And you'd still need to buy another one to finish those items anyway. Buying Rod doesn't replace Void Staff. If you need Void Staff, you need Void Staff.
And you still didn't address my point on how you have to convert AP to equivalent mana value when calculating cost-effectiveness for Ryze. You're treating Rod like Ryze gets full value out of the AP, which makes it look way better than it is.
Rod's uncharged stats absolutely do not compare to other item options on Ryze. I don't see how this is even a question.
On December 22 2011 14:50 Requizen wrote: Dominion Ryze: same build?
I haven't played much Dominion really, but I like to scrap the Tear in favor of rushing the core Veil+Heart. You never really get much of a chance to farm it up.
On December 21 2011 00:16 Alzadar wrote: The upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst costs 850. For that, you get 160hp, 200 mana and 20 ability power, plus 18hp, 20 mana and 2 AP every minute for 10 minutes. At 0 stacks the gold value is 420+400+435=1255. Buying a Rod of Ages is not like buying GP/5 at all...
On a normal AP it isn't. It is on Ryze when you consider that the AP is worth significantly less than its gold value on him. You need to convert the value of the AP to equivalent mana value, because otherwise you're over-valuing the AP. Obviously Rod looks good when you pretend Ryze is making just as much use out of it as any other AP caster, but he isn't.
You also can't look at the upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst, because Ryze would never buy Blasting Wand if he weren't getting Rod. You have to treat Wand+Rod upgrade as a single buy in that regard. You get 160 hp + 200 mana + 60 AP for 1710. That 60 AP is equivalent to about another 200 mana for Ryze in terms of damage output, so basically your immediate gain is equivalent to 160 HP + 400 mana, which is worth ~1220 gold. 500 gold behind the curve, but fully stacked RoA pulls significantly ahead.
You'd be buying a Blasting Wand anyway at that point in the game because you need it for either an Archangel's Staff, a Void Staff or a Rod of Ages.
I sure don't... tear, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart, start stacking mana with another catalyst, maybe get a WoTA . I delay the blasting wand as long as I possibly can, because it isn't that useful. I don't get the argument that you need the RoA completely charged to be worth it at all. You don't need a maxed out RoA to be worth it when you have 100+ armor and magic resist, and a decent chunk of health too already. Ryze is on a pretty steady power curve due to being dependent on his total mana pool for damage, the RoA is just a continuation of that process in my mind.
Also, on the Warmog's comment- yeah, I'd be surprised if it finishes and gets charged up completely. Average minion kills in my ranked games are like 150-200ish. Games do not go much longer than 30 minutes for me, and a whole lot of that time is spent on team fights. If you get Warmogs as a third major item, you've spent 7585 gold on boots 2, tear, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart. Warmogs is another 3k gold, so you're at 10,585 gold minus plus pots and wards. My average gold per game as Ryze is around 10k (small sample size of 3), so you'd finish Warmogs right as the game was ending, unless you rush it (which you shouldn't). You need 100 extra minion kills to charge that sucker, minus whatever you get via champions. I don't know how your games go down, but end game is usually a crap ton of team fights where I'm not exactly farming minions for extended periods of time except after big battles. RoA charges up during team fights, without any sort of extra effort. I'd be pretty surprised if you could charge it before 45 minutes- unless you're sacrificing your mana pool significantly (or the enemy team is really, really sloppy or behind).
As far as dominion Ryze goes, I go boots 1, catalyst, boots of mobility, Frozen Heart, Odyn's veil, then start stacking mana crystals/catalysts. Seems to work reasonably well.
i just started playing ranked a week ago and am 5-0 with ryze. i go tear boots frozen heart banshees veil wota void staff AA staff. im 35-13-35 with him in those 5 games. you cant be killed late game if u ult + wota. that is the most effecient ryze item spec imo. wota > roa for more survivability.
On December 22 2011 15:13 zer0das wrote: I sure don't... tear, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart, start stacking mana with another catalyst, maybe get a WoTA . I delay the blasting wand as long as I possibly can, because it isn't that useful. I don't get the argument that you need the RoA completely charged to be worth it at all. You don't need a maxed out RoA to be worth it when you have 100+ armor and magic resist, and a decent chunk of health too already. Ryze is on a pretty steady power curve due to being dependent on his total mana pool for damage, the RoA is just a continuation of that process in my mind.
Itemization is all about cost-effectiveness. It doesn't matter whether it's 10 minutes into the game, or 40 minutes into the game, if the item you're buying is not going to be cost-effective, there's no sense buying it.
Buying Rod early at least has a CHANCE of being cost-effective, even though it puts a dent in your midgame effectiveness. Lategame Rod has almost no chance of being cost-effective before the game ends, so even though it hurts you less, there's no gain from buying it over items that are immediately good.
On December 22 2011 15:13 zer0das wrote: Also, on the Warmog's comment- yeah, I'd be surprised if it finishes and gets charged up completely. Average minion kills in my ranked games are like 150-200ish. Games do not go much longer than 30 minutes for me, and a whole lot of that time is spent on team fights. If you get Warmogs as a third major item, you've spent 7585 gold on boots 2, tear, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart. Warmogs is another 3k gold, so you're at 10,585 gold minus plus pots and wards. My average gold per game as Ryze is around 10k (small sample size of 3), so you'd finish Warmogs right as the game was ending, unless you rush it (which you shouldn't). You need 100 extra minion kills to charge that sucker, minus whatever you get via champions. I don't know how your games go down, but end game is usually a crap ton of team fights where I'm not exactly farming minions for extended periods of time except after big battles. RoA charges up during team fights, without any sort of extra effort. I'd be pretty surprised if you could charge it before 45 minutes- unless you're sacrificing your mana pool significantly (or the enemy team is really, really sloppy or behind).
You are aware that Warmog's gains charges from assists as well as kills, right?
Even if you're not farming at all and just fighting teamfights, Mog's will charge extremely quickly because even in losing fights, you'll get 2-3 assists, which is 20-30 stacks. And if you win a fight, with 4-5 kills+assists, that instantly a half-stacked Warmog's.
Cost effectiveness is not strictly about numbers. How do you quantify the ability to initiate fights without fear because of Banshee's Veil? Or how much easier it is to farm in lane because the AP caster on the other side can't bully you? Items are all about: Or the cooldown reduction on a Frozen Heart giving you rune prison just in time to pick up a kill and lead your team to an easy 5v4 teamfight?
The cost effectiveness of stats for a RoA means diddly when you don't have the armor/resists to back it up. A mana crystal, health crystal, and AP tome are worth completely altering your build by themselves due to a perceived "cost effectiveness?" Seriously? How much Ryze do you play?
On December 26 2011 10:59 zer0das wrote: Cost effectiveness is not strictly about numbers. How do you quantify the ability to initiate fights without fear because of Banshee's Veil? Or how much easier it is to farm in lane because the AP caster on the other side can't bully you? Items are all about: Or the cooldown reduction on a Frozen Heart giving you rune prison just in time to pick up a kill and lead your team to an easy 5v4 teamfight?
Yes, other items are better than RoA. We already established this. Now how does this make 4th item RoA (as you suggested) compelling at all? RoA is usually not worth buying over other items first. What makes it worth buying over other items as a 3rd or 4th item?
Again, if you buy RoA, you're going all-in on it, because it's trash the moment you buy it. Uncharged RoA is a shit item, fully charged RoA is good. But buying at 40 minutes doesn't make it any LESS trash than it is at 15 minutes. The only difference at 40 minutes is that you're less likely to see that trash item finish charging into a worthwhile item.
I don't think RoA is good 95% of the time. The 5% of the time I'd buy it though I'd buy it early. RoA is a trash item for Ryze the moment you buy it. If you buy it at 15 minutes, and somehow don't lose yourself the game over the next 10 minutes, you get to make use of it not being trash. But if you buy it late, it's usually gonna stay trash till the game is over.
someone tell me how to lane against ryze. once he gets cata any burst mage loses, once he gets tear everyone else loses too. and q range is rediculous and much better at trading than practically every otehr spell in the game.
On January 15 2012 10:33 Kaneh wrote: someone tell me how to lane against ryze. once he gets cata any burst mage loses, once he gets tear everyone else loses too. and q range is rediculous and much better at trading than practically every otehr spell in the game.
Ideally you just outrange him, zone him during his weak early game and deny him CS. Q is short compared to Brand/Cass/Xerath/Viktor, even Zilean and LB outrange him.
Cata certainly doesn't counter ranged harass, its 250 health every level up, thats about 1-2 spells. Cass is very strong against him because even if he lands the snare and full combo, you can be comboing back at him the whole time for more damage. Zilean is absurdly annoying because ryzes lack of burst and slow projectiles make it easy to res yourself every time you would die, plus bombs everywhere.
I've heard a few times people say that Ryze counters Sion, but I just don't see it. Over time I've learned to overcome the match-ups I found difficult as Ryze (Morgana, Brand), but Sion remains a mystery to me.
Early levels you have the choice of either trying to break his shield or ignoring him. If you ignore him of course he will try to stun + blow up, so either you get zoned out a bit or you fight. Fights will usually go something like: Sion runs at you with shield, you Q and root getting his shield to 1/2 or so, he stuns you and blows up, so you just took massive damage and he took none. You would have to chase after him through the minion wave to retaliate, so at best you're getting off a single Overload (~110 damage to the ~230 he did to you, and you spend three times as much mana). Breaking his shield will never be mana efficient (at level 3 it will take at least 220 mana to break his 80 mana shield), so even if you do manage it you'll run OOM quickly if it's before your first base. After you've based he's getting to a point where he can insta-clear and go gank, and you can either use your ult to clear the wave and follow him, a good 20 seconds behind at least, or stay and get the creeps. Either way he's ahead.
I just don't see how Ryze is a good pick against Sion in any way except for the fact that he has a stronger lategame.
I have a few questions on ryze. How does he scale into late game considering he scales off mana and not ap? How do you get farm for late game?
My spells are too single target to farm efficiently and my autoattacks suck. In teamfights I can ult and E for some aoe damage, but I can't ult every time I want to farm wraiths. Do you just get blue and spam as much as possible?
On January 26 2012 13:43 Alzadar wrote: I've heard a few times people say that Ryze counters Sion, but I just don't see it. Over time I've learned to overcome the match-ups I found difficult as Ryze (Morgana, Brand), but Sion remains a mystery to me.
Early levels you have the choice of either trying to break his shield or ignoring him. If you ignore him of course he will try to stun + blow up, so either you get zoned out a bit or you fight. Fights will usually go something like: Sion runs at you with shield, you Q and root getting his shield to 1/2 or so, he stuns you and blows up, so you just took massive damage and he took none. You would have to chase after him through the minion wave to retaliate, so at best you're getting off a single Overload (~110 damage to the ~230 he did to you, and you spend three times as much mana). Breaking his shield will never be mana efficient (at level 3 it will take at least 220 mana to break his 80 mana shield), so even if you do manage it you'll run OOM quickly if it's before your first base. After you've based he's getting to a point where he can insta-clear and go gank, and you can either use your ult to clear the wave and follow him, a good 20 seconds behind at least, or stay and get the creeps. Either way he's ahead.
I just don't see how Ryze is a good pick against Sion in any way except for the fact that he has a stronger lategame.
Ryze snare outranges Sion stun though, you shouldn't ever get stunned. And a Ryze combo is not QW, it's QWEQ which should break his shield. You have to react really fast though if you smartcast like me, since as soon as you see your Q come out you need to root him so he can't get in stun range. If he clears the wave and leaves that's a problem, but if you go and pop his shield every time he wants to use it to clear the wave you'll be ok. It does leave you open to ganks though since you need to use your W on him and it still won't save you from a flash stun.
I don't really know how to deal with Morgana still, she just pushes all day zzz
On January 26 2012 14:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I have a few questions on ryze. How does he scale into late game considering he scales off mana and not ap? How do you get farm for late game?
My spells are too single target to farm efficiently and my autoattacks suck. In teamfights I can ult and E for some aoe damage, but I can't ult every time I want to farm wraiths. Do you just get blue and spam as much as possible?
He's probably the best scaling late game caster. You get farm the same way as everyone else, by killing creeps. Learn to use his autoattacks and save your spells to harass and to last hit at tower. Get blue early and charge your tear like mad. And you can use your ult to farm wraiths, it's on like a 30 second cooldown.
I have a question too. For top do people level W over Q? I found level 1 W wasn't enough to keep Garen from silencing me but that was without a boots start.
On January 26 2012 14:25 starfries wrote: I have a question too. For top do people level W over Q? I found level 1 W wasn't enough to keep Garen from silencing me but that was without a boots start.
Obviously you should never follow guides down to the last item. They are entirely situational, and I believe you should just hang back and focus on farming. Treat it like a gp lane, which is to say; Devote your mana pool to q'ing garen if you feel you have to, to stay safe, and eventually use it to last hit if you can't get close, since the range is pretty high. This will keep you safe, and will keep him low enough so that he is unable to dive you in tower given that you can just w him if he comes under tower range.
On January 26 2012 14:25 starfries wrote: I have a question too. For top do people level W over Q? I found level 1 W wasn't enough to keep Garen from silencing me but that was without a boots start.
Obviously you should never follow guides down to the last item. They are entirely situational, and I believe you should just hang back and focus on farming. Treat it like a gp lane, which is to say; Devote your mana pool to q'ing garen if you feel you have to, to stay safe, and eventually use it to last hit if you can't get close, since the range is pretty high. This will keep you safe, and will keep him low enough so that he is unable to dive you in tower given that you can just w him if he comes under tower range.
I feel like you probably haven't played Ryze vs Garen because it's very different from a GP lane.
On January 26 2012 13:43 Alzadar wrote: I've heard a few times people say that Ryze counters Sion, but I just don't see it. Over time I've learned to overcome the match-ups I found difficult as Ryze (Morgana, Brand), but Sion remains a mystery to me.
Early levels you have the choice of either trying to break his shield or ignoring him. If you ignore him of course he will try to stun + blow up, so either you get zoned out a bit or you fight. Fights will usually go something like: Sion runs at you with shield, you Q and root getting his shield to 1/2 or so, he stuns you and blows up, so you just took massive damage and he took none. You would have to chase after him through the minion wave to retaliate, so at best you're getting off a single Overload (~110 damage to the ~230 he did to you, and you spend three times as much mana). Breaking his shield will never be mana efficient (at level 3 it will take at least 220 mana to break his 80 mana shield), so even if you do manage it you'll run OOM quickly if it's before your first base. After you've based he's getting to a point where he can insta-clear and go gank, and you can either use your ult to clear the wave and follow him, a good 20 seconds behind at least, or stay and get the creeps. Either way he's ahead.
I just don't see how Ryze is a good pick against Sion in any way except for the fact that he has a stronger lategame.
Ryze snare outranges Sion stun though, you shouldn't ever get stunned. And a Ryze combo is not QW, it's QWEQ which should break his shield. You have to react really fast though if you smartcast like me, since as soon as you see your Q come out you need to root him so he can't get in stun range. If he clears the wave and leaves that's a problem, but if you go and pop his shield every time he wants to use it to clear the wave you'll be ok. It does leave you open to ganks though since you need to use your W on him and it still won't save you from a flash stun.
I don't really know how to deal with Morgana still, she just pushes all day zzz
On January 26 2012 14:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I have a few questions on ryze. How does he scale into late game considering he scales off mana and not ap? How do you get farm for late game?
My spells are too single target to farm efficiently and my autoattacks suck. In teamfights I can ult and E for some aoe damage, but I can't ult every time I want to farm wraiths. Do you just get blue and spam as much as possible?
He's probably the best scaling late game caster. You get farm the same way as everyone else, by killing creeps. Learn to use his autoattacks and save your spells to harass and to last hit at tower. Get blue early and charge your tear like mad. And you can use your ult to farm wraiths, it's on like a 30 second cooldown.
Again, I don't see how you can come out ahead using 280 mana to break his 90 mana shield. Sooner or later you'll run too low, and then you're really screwed.
On January 26 2012 13:43 Alzadar wrote: I've heard a few times people say that Ryze counters Sion, but I just don't see it. Over time I've learned to overcome the match-ups I found difficult as Ryze (Morgana, Brand), but Sion remains a mystery to me.
Early levels you have the choice of either trying to break his shield or ignoring him. If you ignore him of course he will try to stun + blow up, so either you get zoned out a bit or you fight. Fights will usually go something like: Sion runs at you with shield, you Q and root getting his shield to 1/2 or so, he stuns you and blows up, so you just took massive damage and he took none. You would have to chase after him through the minion wave to retaliate, so at best you're getting off a single Overload (~110 damage to the ~230 he did to you, and you spend three times as much mana). Breaking his shield will never be mana efficient (at level 3 it will take at least 220 mana to break his 80 mana shield), so even if you do manage it you'll run OOM quickly if it's before your first base. After you've based he's getting to a point where he can insta-clear and go gank, and you can either use your ult to clear the wave and follow him, a good 20 seconds behind at least, or stay and get the creeps. Either way he's ahead.
I just don't see how Ryze is a good pick against Sion in any way except for the fact that he has a stronger lategame.
Ryze snare outranges Sion stun though, you shouldn't ever get stunned. And a Ryze combo is not QW, it's QWEQ which should break his shield. You have to react really fast though if you smartcast like me, since as soon as you see your Q come out you need to root him so he can't get in stun range. If he clears the wave and leaves that's a problem, but if you go and pop his shield every time he wants to use it to clear the wave you'll be ok. It does leave you open to ganks though since you need to use your W on him and it still won't save you from a flash stun.
I don't really know how to deal with Morgana still, she just pushes all day zzz
On January 26 2012 14:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I have a few questions on ryze. How does he scale into late game considering he scales off mana and not ap? How do you get farm for late game?
My spells are too single target to farm efficiently and my autoattacks suck. In teamfights I can ult and E for some aoe damage, but I can't ult every time I want to farm wraiths. Do you just get blue and spam as much as possible?
He's probably the best scaling late game caster. You get farm the same way as everyone else, by killing creeps. Learn to use his autoattacks and save your spells to harass and to last hit at tower. Get blue early and charge your tear like mad. And you can use your ult to farm wraiths, it's on like a 30 second cooldown.
Again, I don't see how you can come out ahead using 280 mana to break his 90 mana shield. Sooner or later you'll run too low, and then you're really screwed.
Once you have your tear and blue mana isn't really an issue. You want to back pretty early anyways so that you have more time to charge your tear. If you don't get that blue at 7 minutes it's a lot more painful, but you can always root him and run away to avoid damage. It just means you'll be pushed to tower and he might start roaming.
edit: if you pm me your ign we could just play Ryze vs Sion instead of theorycrafting. unless you're way better than me (very possible because I'm pretty bad)
So I recently played Ryze again and I was reminded of what kinda turned me away from him. He gets pushed by just about every AP in the game I was mid against Morgana and I felt like I had to conserve mana to save cs from tower instead of harass because she pushed so damn hard. Then when she pushed the wave into tower she'd hang back and do whatever the hell she wanted, be it taking blue buff, backing for items, ganking top or bot, or just sitting out of line of sight to keep me in the dark. Once I got Catalyst I felt like I could spend a few E's and Q-balls to harass/keep the lane from pushing, but up until then it was a pain in the ass.
Vs Morgana, her pushing power only really starts to ramp up around lvl 5. (rank 3 tormented soil). Before then you should be able to keep the lane relatively balanced. I find Ryze vs Morgana to be a good match up, she is not an aggressive / harassive laner, ergo you'll never be zoned. When you come back to lane after the first buy back - get blue from your jungler -> you can be hyper aggressive and come out on top of trades.
On February 09 2012 05:41 BaconSoup wrote: Vs Morgana, her pushing power only really starts to ramp up around lvl 5. (rank 3 tormented soil). Before then you should be able to keep the lane relatively balanced. I find Ryze vs Morgana to be a good match up, she is not an aggressive / harassive laner, ergo you'll never be zoned. When you come back to lane after the first buy back - get blue from your jungler -> you can be hyper aggressive and come out on top of trades.
They let me farm on Ryze, so I became a god.jpeg.
Ryze is very solid vs morg.
Obviously you will suffer early like Ryze always does, but once you get cata etc....you can last hit and push well, and get in good harass on morg because her black shield is poor vs your consistant damage output. Mostly since you're Ryze you can just harass and farm up and become even more ridiculous than she does lategame, while building too tanky in lane for her to ever have enough damage output to kill you. Get that fast banshee and she literally has no kill potential on you.
On January 26 2012 14:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I have a few questions on ryze. How does he scale into late game considering he scales off mana and not ap? How do you get farm for late game?
My spells are too single target to farm efficiently and my autoattacks suck. In teamfights I can ult and E for some aoe damage, but I can't ult every time I want to farm wraiths. Do you just get blue and spam as much as possible?
1) How does he scale into late game? Way better than your average AP carry BECAUSE it is based on mana. Tear of godess keeps charging up to 1k, along with mana/lvl runes. I'm career ryze player, late game I will have 4.2k mana.
3) How do you get farm for late game? Farm with your Q and W and not your auto attack. Not hard really. All you need is tear of godess and an early blue buff (you really only need the first one when tear charge is still low), you'll never run out of mana, and if you do, go back and buy items. You use your Q to lasthit minions, this will guarantee 100% last hit rate (if you can't do that with a 200 dmg early game Q I don't know what to say) and you get both gold AND tear charge. Ryze is not like brand that boom boom kill a wave, ryze is more like an AD carry when he farms, you really want to milk those creeps, last hitting with Q achieves both money and tear charge (which has a 2second cd) You definitely CAN use ult whenever you want if you see a built up creep wave, it only has 50 second cooldown, and by casting each spell you reduce the cooldown by 1, so realistically speaking the cd on ur ult is more like 23 seconds.
Do you know the combo? Q W Q E Q R Q that's the standard 1v1 combo you should always know. To become a good ryze you NEED to maximize the number of Q cast in any battle, shuffling it between your other spells to gain advantage of the cooldown reduction.
Anyways, ryze is probably the most stable champion out there. NO amount of bad start can make a ryze weak late game, as long as he finish his core tier-2 items (aka catalyst/tear/glacial) he WILL perform regardless, given a charged tear and mana runes.
On December 20 2011 14:29 Two_DoWn wrote: Because 700 mana is 56 damage. You want to maximize your damage? Hit another q.
And 600 health becomes an effective 1k+ with resists. The damage you get from the ROA? It only goes down.
You really dont need more than Glacial/tear/banshees. And all of the items that you get scale naturally with health. Its stupid to throw away your build in the vain attempt to do a little bit more damage. RYZE IS NOT A BURST CASTER. You do not play ryze by maximizing his damage in an offensive sense. You maximize his damage the same way you would a bruiser- maximize your ability to survive. You know how you win games of lol? Be the last one alive. If you stack 4k HP on top of the obscene resists you build up naturally you have to be a moron to die in a fight.
I never thought about warmogs... Ima try it HAhhAAHhaahA
I guess I'll just forgo my force of nature ;(
what do you guys think? Say they have some nasty casters, should I get force of nature or warmog? T___T
I guess it can be Warmog + (FAN or Thorn) depend on if you have trouble with AP or AD...
Just played Ryze after not playing him for ages, and when I used to play him I was like lvl 15 and didn't smart cast... so much win mash your keyboard to win. One occasion I was 1vs5 and they couldn't kill me, my team came and we aced them with me having like 100hp left.
Just tested the tear thingy in a custom game. You keep the mana for a while after selling the tear, however it reset itself after a while (not sure what triggered the reset, i didn't die atleast). So selling your tear is probably not a smart idea
The biggest problem with ryze is he doesn't have a good source of damage+mpen. void staff, hauntin guize, abyssal sceptre, are not optimized for ryze, which makes his lategame a bit weaker compared to some of the standard AP scaling casters.
his late game is super strong imo. just his early game where his movespeed and how gankable he is is my problem. for items just get AA merc Void wota bv frozen heart. that's a really strong all around 6 item build
Tear / fheart / bveil / boots all core void / rylai / wota + items of your choice are all pretty optional rylai's is really sick if you don't need damage as badly as the super slow and additional health that it will give you (the slow is super good for peeling, chasing and additional utility, i would very rarely get warmogs over it) void for da damagez (esp if u went mercs) i would not get wota over rylai (the giants belt vs hextech) for survivability in teamfights tbh, unless the other team is incompetent you will either die or be completely ignored in most situations. i would get it if you are running double AP / you have a significant portion of your team who would benefit from spellvamp and there is no other wota carrier (corki shyv caster jungles etc) he is fairly straightforward to build and play, a great champion atm
I'm sure this has been asked before (and I may have asked myself), but why is RoA not a feasable option on him? Lots of health and mana, some AP (not necessary, just gravy) makes him more tanky and damage-y. At least, it seems to make sense to me :S
On February 24 2012 03:58 Requizen wrote: I'm sure this has been asked before (and I may have asked myself), but why is RoA not a feasable option on him? Lots of health and mana, some AP (not necessary, just gravy) makes him more tanky and damage-y. At least, it seems to make sense to me :S
RoA is cost-effective with 0 stacks for normal APs, but it's not for Ryze. I did this math 2 pages back--consider that Blasting Wand + RoA recipe costs 1710 gold, but, converting the AP to equivalent mana's worth of damage, is only worth 1220 gold for Ryze. It's essentially a giant stack or gold/10 item for Ryze, because the stat gains are not worth the cost for him when you immediately buy it.
It's situationally good, but normally Ryze's power curve doesn't call for buying a giant stack item.
RoA delays your other core items too much. I used to get it for the extra HP but nowadays I just like to get a giant's belt which I build into Rylai's eventually.
Am I just reading wrong or are people not getting AA super late game? Like obviously things like WotA/Bveil/Frozen Heart and probably even void staff take precedence but with the insane amount of mana you're going to have, and the fact that we've established that nine times out of ten you're probably gonna keep Tear, turning Tear into AA for your sixth item will yield more AP than just about anything (possibly even more AP than deathcap considering runes and your item build).
Not as much AP as dcap, with dcap final build gives around 396 AP compared to 322 if you go AA but you have 1400 more mana with AA. Your Q, which is your bread and butter skill, will hit for approximately 80 more damage if you go AA instead of dcap. And I realize no one builds dcap on Ryze, just illustrating that for raw damage getting sixth item AA is going to yield a ton more damage than selling tear for Rylai's or a tank item.
On March 01 2012 07:09 overt wrote: Am I just reading wrong or are people not getting AA super late game? Like obviously things like WotA/Bveil/Frozen Heart and probably even void staff take precedence but with the insane amount of mana you're going to have, and the fact that we've established that nine times out of ten you're probably gonna keep Tear, turning Tear into AA for your sixth item will yield more AP than just about anything (possibly even more AP than deathcap considering runes and your item build).
Not as much AP as dcap, with dcap final build gives around 396 AP compared to 322 if you go AA but you have 1400 more mana with AA. Your Q, which is your bread and butter skill, will hit for approximately 80 more damage if you go AA instead of dcap. And I realize no one builds dcap on Ryze, just illustrating that for raw damage getting sixth item AA is going to yield a ton more damage than selling tear for Rylai's or a tank item.
Well of course you buy the Archangel's when you're loaded and have nothing left to buy. Depending on the enemy MR it will sometimes be a better purchase than Void Staff.
Nobody is advocating selling Tear (except the guy who thought you kept the bonus mana, which isn't the case).
On the topic of Warmog's vs WotA vs Rod of Ages vs Rylai's, I've played extensively will all of them and none feel as strong as Warmog's.
The problem with WotA is that if you get stunned and focuses you'll die before you get a chance to vamp. Usually you can keep yourself safe from this by standing back, but that means you can't poke well. With the other 3 options you can go balls deep without fear.
The only problem with Rod is that you'd be getting it at 40 minutes, not really worth it.
Rylai's vs Warmog's comes down to utility vs power. Is a 35% slow on your Overloads worth a loss of 800 health? Situational.
You really shouldnt have a problem dying too quickly on Ryze with WotA unless your positioning is godawful. Ryze builds extremely tanky and Warmogs doesn't offer anything except a health buffer for bad play imo. There's no real reason to ever deviate from Tear/Cata->FH/BV->WotA or Void staff. Selling Tear is an absolute stupid thing to do, you lose out on 1350 mana, which is equivalent to ~100 damage per Q and ~65 damage per W. Taking into account your passive that's a HUGE damage drop. You upgrade Tear to AA simply because there's nothing better to do with your Tear; the AP isn't completely wasted either - you do have (low) AP ratios.
On March 17 2012 21:23 RouaF wrote: isn't op like really old ? what is the standard nowadays for ryze ? runes ? masteries ?
Core items are pretty much sorc boots/tear of the goddess/banshee's veil/frozen heart. The order you get these depends on who you're laning against and how well it's going. Tear always becomes Archangel's Staff, but only after your build is completed, to maximize the amount of AP you get from it.
For the 5th and 6th item, it's mostly situational, my personal preference is WotA/Void Staff, although if you're getting focused down hard in every single team fight you will want a guardian angel.
For runes:
Marks: MPen, standard for all AP mage champs. Seals: a few good choices here, the mp5 seal is the best mp5 rune, so if you want regen for more early-game Q usage then use seals, MPL to maximize late-game mana/damage, or flat mana to help his early game mana/damage as much as possible. Most guides I see use MP5 to ensure that he can stay in the lane without running out of mana long enough to be able to have tear + boots after his 1st trip back to base. Glyphs: CDR is very important for Ryze to be able to maximize his damage. 10% comes from level 5 Overload, 20% comes from Frozen Heart/blue buff. The remaining 10% must be done through runes + masteries. Using the suggested masteries below gives 6%. The remaining 4% can be done using 3 CDR/lvl glyphs, and 2 flat CDR glyphs. The other 4 can be your preference, although it's recommended to go MR since glyphs are the best runes for MR and MR is important to help reduce early-game damage from the AP champ you'll most likely be laning against in mid. Of course if you're not concerned with capping your CDR, you can just use all MR glyphs, and rely on blue buff/blue elixir for getting to 40%. Quintessences: Movement speed is pretty much standard, being a tanky caster means that positioning is important for ryze, and in addition ryze recalls quite a bit since he depends heavily on getting his tear/catalyst ASAP, so the extra movement speed is important there.
For masteries: From what I've read and used, the best distribution is 9/0/21. 9/0/21 is pretty much the optimal distribution for Ryze, since it maxes out Strength of Spirit, which Ryze takes takes advantage of more than any other champion, and also gives him the most CDR while doing so. The utility tree also helps out his mana regen for the early game, gives him longer blue buff, and maxing out swiftness helps his movement speed along with the MS quints. The Spell Vamp is also useful since once Ryze gets tear/catalyst he is constantly casting spells.
Can't see me ever selling WotA for Void on a Ryze. Definitely would never sell Tear, either. It's a core item for a reason.
You have a choice with your last item between Void, Rylai's, Warmogs, and GA. Your other 5 items should be Banshee Veil, Tear (built into AA after your 5th big item), Boots (Mercs/Sorcs), WotA, Frozen Heart.
Ryze gets massive benefit from WotA because of how spammy he is and how most of his damage comes from single target spells (and therefore gets the full value of spell vamp).
Base your final item choice on how the game has actually progressed, not based on an arbitrary guide. If GA helps you outlive a burst team and come out the other side with an ace, so be it. If Void gives you the extra damage you need to seal the deal, grab it. If Warmogs lets you be super aggressive and not have to back down, fantastic. Rylai's slow and extra bit of hp/damage can also be a fight changer. Permaslow is nothing to scoff at with a champ like Ryze. If you find yourself not dipping low in HP because of your ult, consider skipping WotA altogether.
I've often seen Locicero and Salce run Mana/Level Seals, Flat Mana Glyphs, the full 3 points in Intelligence and just 1 point in the new Strength of Spirit. Personally, I randomly switch back and forth between Move Speed Quints and Spell Vamp quints.
On March 17 2012 21:23 RouaF wrote: isn't op like really old ? what is the standard nowadays for ryze ? runes ? masteries ?
Core items are pretty much sorc boots/tear of the goddess/banshee's veil/frozen heart. The order you get these depends on who you're laning against and how well it's going. Tear always becomes Archangel's Staff, but only after your build is completed, to maximize the amount of AP you get from it.
For the 5th and 6th item, it's mostly situational, my personal preference is WotA/Void Staff, although if you're getting focused down hard in every single team fight you will want a guardian angel.
For runes:
Marks: MPen, standard for all AP mage champs. Seals: a few good choices here, the mp5 seal is the best mp5 rune, so if you want regen for more early-game Q usage then use seals, MPL to maximize late-game mana/damage, or flat mana to help his early game mana/damage as much as possible. Most guides I see use MP5 to ensure that he can stay in the lane without running out of mana long enough to be able to have tear + boots after his 1st trip back to base. Glyphs: CDR is very important for Ryze to be able to maximize his damage. 10% comes from level 5 Overload, 20% comes from Frozen Heart/blue buff. The remaining 10% must be done through runes + masteries. Using the suggested masteries below gives 6%. The remaining 4% can be done using 3 CDR/lvl glyphs, and 2 flat CDR glyphs. The other 4 can be your preference, although it's recommended to go MR since glyphs are the best runes for MR and MR is important to help reduce early-game damage from the AP champ you'll most likely be laning against in mid. Of course if you're not concerned with capping your CDR, you can just use all MR glyphs, and rely on blue buff/blue elixir for getting to 40%. Quintessences: Movement speed is pretty much standard, being a tanky caster means that positioning is important for ryze, and in addition ryze recalls quite a bit since he depends heavily on getting his tear/catalyst ASAP, so the extra movement speed is important there.
For masteries: From what I've read and used, the best distribution is 9/0/21. 9/0/21 is pretty much the optimal distribution for Ryze, since it maxes out Strength of Spirit, which Ryze takes takes advantage of more than any other champion, and also gives him the most CDR while doing so. The utility tree also helps out his mana regen for the early game, gives him longer blue buff, and maxing out swiftness helps his movement speed along with the MS quints. The Spell Vamp is also useful since once Ryze gets tear/catalyst he is constantly casting spells.
thank you good sir. altho I feel like taking mp5 seals is kind of a waste... you'll have so much mana later on, I guess I have to try by myself.
On March 17 2012 21:23 RouaF wrote: isn't op like really old ? what is the standard nowadays for ryze ? runes ? masteries ?
Core items are pretty much sorc boots/tear of the goddess/banshee's veil/frozen heart. The order you get these depends on who you're laning against and how well it's going. Tear always becomes Archangel's Staff, but only after your build is completed, to maximize the amount of AP you get from it.
For the 5th and 6th item, it's mostly situational, my personal preference is WotA/Void Staff, although if you're getting focused down hard in every single team fight you will want a guardian angel.
For runes:
Marks: MPen, standard for all AP mage champs. Seals: a few good choices here, the mp5 seal is the best mp5 rune, so if you want regen for more early-game Q usage then use seals, MPL to maximize late-game mana/damage, or flat mana to help his early game mana/damage as much as possible. Most guides I see use MP5 to ensure that he can stay in the lane without running out of mana long enough to be able to have tear + boots after his 1st trip back to base. Glyphs: CDR is very important for Ryze to be able to maximize his damage. 10% comes from level 5 Overload, 20% comes from Frozen Heart/blue buff. The remaining 10% must be done through runes + masteries. Using the suggested masteries below gives 6%. The remaining 4% can be done using 3 CDR/lvl glyphs, and 2 flat CDR glyphs. The other 4 can be your preference, although it's recommended to go MR since glyphs are the best runes for MR and MR is important to help reduce early-game damage from the AP champ you'll most likely be laning against in mid. Of course if you're not concerned with capping your CDR, you can just use all MR glyphs, and rely on blue buff/blue elixir for getting to 40%. Quintessences: Movement speed is pretty much standard, being a tanky caster means that positioning is important for ryze, and in addition ryze recalls quite a bit since he depends heavily on getting his tear/catalyst ASAP, so the extra movement speed is important there.
For masteries: From what I've read and used, the best distribution is 9/0/21. 9/0/21 is pretty much the optimal distribution for Ryze, since it maxes out Strength of Spirit, which Ryze takes takes advantage of more than any other champion, and also gives him the most CDR while doing so. The utility tree also helps out his mana regen for the early game, gives him longer blue buff, and maxing out swiftness helps his movement speed along with the MS quints. The Spell Vamp is also useful since once Ryze gets tear/catalyst he is constantly casting spells.
thank you good sir. altho I feel like taking mp5 seals is kind of a waste... you'll have so much mana later on, I guess I have to try by myself.
It's not for later on, it's for early laning (which is why I take flat mp5) Ryze has terrible mana issues early on.
How do you guys deal with AP's like Brand who push really hard and then go ganking lanes/jungle post 6.
If I follow them then I'm going to consistently lose cs, and my understanding of Ryze is that you really need excellent cs early and mid to be useful later on. Also with items like Catalyst and a low stack Tear, can Ryze really compete with the damage of a lot of these AP champs in an early counter gank/teamfight situation?
If I stay in lane cs'ing, then I find it's almost rolling the dice since I'm relying on bot lane not to get double killed, which more often that not they seem to do even with ss/pings going down. Even if my team-mates don't get killed, they definately go on tilt afterwards, since 100% of the time so far I've been flamed for not ganking as much as a Brand etc.
What I'm trying to say is that whenever I come across an AP that can majorly outpush me I feel like whatever I do I will come out behind. I'd like some advice on whether you guys have a solution, or how I should play in such situations, or whether I need to pick Champions that can match my opponents pushing power rather than opting to play Ryze.
On March 18 2012 23:12 Agnosthar wrote: How do you guys deal with AP's like Brand who push really hard and then go ganking lanes/jungle post 6.
If I follow them then I'm going to consistently lose cs, and my understanding of Ryze is that you really need excellent cs early and mid to be useful later on. Also with items like Catalyst and a low stack Tear, can Ryze really compete with the damage of a lot of these AP champs in an early counter gank/teamfight situation?
If I stay in lane cs'ing, then I find it's almost rolling the dice since I'm relying on bot lane not to get double killed, which more often that not they seem to do even with ss/pings going down. Even if my team-mates don't get killed, they definately go on tilt afterwards, since 100% of the time so far I've been flamed for not ganking as much as a Brand etc.
What I'm trying to say is that whenever I come across an AP that can majorly outpush me I feel like whatever I do I will come out behind. I'd like some advice on whether you guys have a solution, or how I should play in such situations, or whether I need to pick Champions that can match my opponents pushing power rather than opting to play Ryze.
Don't be afraid to use ult to shove your lane back, then follow the other mid. The cd is really low (especially when you consider his passive) and should come back up during any prolonged engagement.
I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia.
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups?
I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze
An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult.
Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen?
I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried.
(Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.)
On March 20 2012 03:38 bmn wrote: I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia.
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups?
I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze
An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult.
Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen?
I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried.
(Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.)
Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever.
Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him.
On March 17 2012 21:23 RouaF wrote: isn't op like really old ? what is the standard nowadays for ryze ? runes ? masteries ?
Core items are pretty much sorc boots/tear of the goddess/banshee's veil/frozen heart. The order you get these depends on who you're laning against and how well it's going. Tear always becomes Archangel's Staff, but only after your build is completed, to maximize the amount of AP you get from it.
For the 5th and 6th item, it's mostly situational, my personal preference is WotA/Void Staff, although if you're getting focused down hard in every single team fight you will want a guardian angel.
For runes:
Marks: MPen, standard for all AP mage champs. Seals: a few good choices here, the mp5 seal is the best mp5 rune, so if you want regen for more early-game Q usage then use seals, MPL to maximize late-game mana/damage, or flat mana to help his early game mana/damage as much as possible. Most guides I see use MP5 to ensure that he can stay in the lane without running out of mana long enough to be able to have tear + boots after his 1st trip back to base. Glyphs: CDR is very important for Ryze to be able to maximize his damage. 10% comes from level 5 Overload, 20% comes from Frozen Heart/blue buff. The remaining 10% must be done through runes + masteries. Using the suggested masteries below gives 6%. The remaining 4% can be done using 3 CDR/lvl glyphs, and 2 flat CDR glyphs. The other 4 can be your preference, although it's recommended to go MR since glyphs are the best runes for MR and MR is important to help reduce early-game damage from the AP champ you'll most likely be laning against in mid. Of course if you're not concerned with capping your CDR, you can just use all MR glyphs, and rely on blue buff/blue elixir for getting to 40%. Quintessences: Movement speed is pretty much standard, being a tanky caster means that positioning is important for ryze, and in addition ryze recalls quite a bit since he depends heavily on getting his tear/catalyst ASAP, so the extra movement speed is important there.
For masteries: From what I've read and used, the best distribution is 9/0/21. 9/0/21 is pretty much the optimal distribution for Ryze, since it maxes out Strength of Spirit, which Ryze takes takes advantage of more than any other champion, and also gives him the most CDR while doing so. The utility tree also helps out his mana regen for the early game, gives him longer blue buff, and maxing out swiftness helps his movement speed along with the MS quints. The Spell Vamp is also useful since once Ryze gets tear/catalyst he is constantly casting spells.
Looking at mp5/lvl v flat mp5, the mp5/lvl is better at level 7, but at a certain point mp5 is usueless to ryze, so i guess my question would be, is it viable to go a 5/4 mp5/lvl and flat mp5 or shold i pick one or the other.
Maybe i just need to play a few more games with ryze, or pay attention to when mana issues end to figure this out myself.
I used to use armor seals, but realized that late game i have an abundence of armor from frozen heart, that they were just a waste of money.
Edit: I've also seen different ways to spec 9/0/21... I know some people get the gold bonus, to start mana crystal +3pots, to get a quicker tear. Also some people take the crd over the health regen.
Im not really sure what's better, but just thought i'd throw it out there that thers some customization available.
Also, instead of the 3 AP, ive been putting 2 into extra minion dmg and a couple into AD, It actually really helps ryze last hit early game, more than 3 ap will help him.
On March 20 2012 04:09 SMD wrote: Also, instead of the 3 AP, ive been putting 2 into extra minion dmg and a couple into AD, It actually really helps ryze last hit early game, more than 3 ap will help him.
I do this with every mage I play (well, I don't play Annie nor Veigar) since I find it so much more useful than 3 meek AP.
On March 20 2012 03:38 bmn wrote: I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia.
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups?
I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze
An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult.
Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen?
I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried.
(Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.)
Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever.
Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him.
Although he isn't played so much anymore, Zilean does very well versus Ryze because of the large range differential in their Qs.
On March 20 2012 03:38 bmn wrote: I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia.
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups?
I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze
An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult.
Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen?
I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried.
(Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.)
Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever.
Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him.
Although he isn't played so much anymore, Zilean does very well versus Ryze because of the large range differential in their Qs.
You're thinking of Annie. Overload range is only 25 less than Bomb, you can't reliably land it without retaliation.
Silences or just all around stun-locks are your best bet against Ryze. He will die very quickly if focused while he isn't casting spells (unless he went Rod/Warmogs). Ignite is very important to use on him when he is casting, especially when he uses ultimate.
Ryze is also slow, low range, has no repositioning skill and needs vision of his target to cast spells. Big displacement spells like Janna, Gragas and Tristana ultimates cause him a lot of grief, as does Graves' smokescreen.
Countering him in lane will also weaken him significantly. Cassiopeia, Xerath, LeBlanc and Middlesticks all take a dump on him.
On March 20 2012 14:18 Elite00fm wrote: why doesn't ryze get much play as solo top? He wrecks melee champs, and can just sit in lane and farm to become ridiculous.
I've seen several pro teams run Ryze solo top. I think he doesn't get run more because he does pretty well mid and Swain, Vladimir, and Kennen are all stronger solo tops if you wanted to run a double AP set up.
On March 20 2012 14:18 Elite00fm wrote: why doesn't ryze get much play as solo top? He wrecks melee champs, and can just sit in lane and farm to become ridiculous.
the no escape thing hurts pretty bad top in my experiences with it. some dude with a gap closer can just cc you for days and blow you up before you can get to safety when you end up on his side of the lane.
On March 20 2012 03:38 bmn wrote: I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia.
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups?
I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze
An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult.
Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen?
I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried.
(Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.)
Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever.
Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him.
Although he isn't played so much anymore, Zilean does very well versus Ryze because of the large range differential in their Qs.
You're thinking of Annie. Overload range is only 25 less than Bomb, you can't reliably land it without retaliation.
Silences or just all around stun-locks are your best bet against Ryze. He will die very quickly if focused while he isn't casting spells (unless he went Rod/Warmogs). Ignite is very important to use on him when he is casting, especially when he uses ultimate.
Ryze is also slow, low range, has no repositioning skill and needs vision of his target to cast spells. Big displacement spells like Janna, Gragas and Tristana ultimates cause him a lot of grief, as does Graves' smokescreen.
Countering him in lane will also weaken him significantly. Cassiopeia, Xerath, LeBlanc and Middlesticks all take a dump on him.
I haven't played against cassopiea enough to know my limitations against her, why is she such a good counter? Xerath would be becasue of his range, but he's not often played. I've played a few leblanc's, and if you can play safe early, you outscale him, he has crazy burst, but in my experience the logner the game goes the better the matchup beomes for you
I usually build ryze tankier, i usually go tear into ROA, then its situational as to the game state whether i grab a negatron into banshee or armor into frozen heart.
On March 20 2012 03:38 bmn wrote: I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia.
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups?
I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze
An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult.
Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen?
I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried.
(Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.)
Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever.
Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him.
Although he isn't played so much anymore, Zilean does very well versus Ryze because of the large range differential in their Qs.
You're thinking of Annie. Overload range is only 25 less than Bomb, you can't reliably land it without retaliation.
Silences or just all around stun-locks are your best bet against Ryze. He will die very quickly if focused while he isn't casting spells (unless he went Rod/Warmogs). Ignite is very important to use on him when he is casting, especially when he uses ultimate.
Ryze is also slow, low range, has no repositioning skill and needs vision of his target to cast spells. Big displacement spells like Janna, Gragas and Tristana ultimates cause him a lot of grief, as does Graves' smokescreen.
Countering him in lane will also weaken him significantly. Cassiopeia, Xerath, LeBlanc and Middlesticks all take a dump on him.
I haven't played against cassopiea enough to know my limitations against her, why is she such a good counter? Xerath would be becasue of his range, but he's not often played. I've played a few leblanc's, and if you can play safe early, you outscale him, he has crazy burst, but in my experience the logner the game goes the better the matchup beomes for you
I usually build ryze tankier, i usually go tear into ROA, then its situational as to the game state whether i grab a negatron into banshee or armor into frozen heart.
I think it's the combination of superior range and pushing power... it feels like Cassio can do whatever she wants and Ryze can't do anything back.
On March 20 2012 03:38 bmn wrote: I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia.
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups?
I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze
An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult.
Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen?
I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried.
(Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.)
Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever.
Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him.
Although he isn't played so much anymore, Zilean does very well versus Ryze because of the large range differential in their Qs.
You're thinking of Annie. Overload range is only 25 less than Bomb, you can't reliably land it without retaliation.
Silences or just all around stun-locks are your best bet against Ryze. He will die very quickly if focused while he isn't casting spells (unless he went Rod/Warmogs). Ignite is very important to use on him when he is casting, especially when he uses ultimate.
Ryze is also slow, low range, has no repositioning skill and needs vision of his target to cast spells. Big displacement spells like Janna, Gragas and Tristana ultimates cause him a lot of grief, as does Graves' smokescreen.
Countering him in lane will also weaken him significantly. Cassiopeia, Xerath, LeBlanc and Middlesticks all take a dump on him.
I haven't played against cassopiea enough to know my limitations against her, why is she such a good counter? Xerath would be becasue of his range, but he's not often played. I've played a few leblanc's, and if you can play safe early, you outscale him, he has crazy burst, but in my experience the logner the game goes the better the matchup beomes for you
I usually build ryze tankier, i usually go tear into ROA, then its situational as to the game state whether i grab a negatron into banshee or armor into frozen heart.
Cassiopeia outranges Ryze, so he has a hard time even approaching her. She can push the lane easily, causing him trouble CSing early. Rune Prison is completely useless against her, she will keep combo'ing you while rooted. Ryze has to be relatively immobile while casting spells, giving Cassiopeia a chance to land her Q, and once she does that she outdamages Ryze by a country mile, it isn't even close. Her ultimate is very very strong 1v1 and 1v2, meaning that even with jungler help you'll have trouble in the lane.
Most importantly, Cass is just as amazing late game as Ryze is, so it's not like he'll outscale her in the same way he does LeBlanc, or Xerath to a degree.
The LeBlanc lane can be survived, barely. I have a pure MR page I use only in that match-up.
On March 20 2012 03:38 bmn wrote: I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia.
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups?
I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze
An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult.
Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen?
I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried.
(Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.)
Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever.
Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him.
Although he isn't played so much anymore, Zilean does very well versus Ryze because of the large range differential in their Qs.
You're thinking of Annie. Overload range is only 25 less than Bomb, you can't reliably land it without retaliation.
Silences or just all around stun-locks are your best bet against Ryze. He will die very quickly if focused while he isn't casting spells (unless he went Rod/Warmogs). Ignite is very important to use on him when he is casting, especially when he uses ultimate.
Ryze is also slow, low range, has no repositioning skill and needs vision of his target to cast spells. Big displacement spells like Janna, Gragas and Tristana ultimates cause him a lot of grief, as does Graves' smokescreen.
Countering him in lane will also weaken him significantly. Cassiopeia, Xerath, LeBlanc and Middlesticks all take a dump on him.
I haven't played against cassopiea enough to know my limitations against her, why is she such a good counter? Xerath would be becasue of his range, but he's not often played. I've played a few leblanc's, and if you can play safe early, you outscale him, he has crazy burst, but in my experience the logner the game goes the better the matchup beomes for you
I usually build ryze tankier, i usually go tear into ROA, then its situational as to the game state whether i grab a negatron into banshee or armor into frozen heart.
Cassiopeia outranges Ryze, so he has a hard time even approaching her. She can push the lane easily, causing him trouble CSing early. Rune Prison is completely useless against her, she will keep combo'ing you while rooted. Ryze has to be relatively immobile while casting spells, giving Cassiopeia a chance to land her Q, and once she does that she outdamages Ryze by a country mile, it isn't even close. Her ultimate is very very strong 1v1 and 1v2, meaning that even with jungler help you'll have trouble in the lane.
Most importantly, Cass is just as amazing late game as Ryze is, so it's not like he'll outscale her in the same way he does LeBlanc, or Xerath to a degree.
The LeBlanc lane can be survived, barely. I have a pure MR page I use only in that match-up.
After having a chance to counterpick Ryze with Cass yesterday, I think it's very obvious and easy to exploit if you try it yourself.
Pretty much every weakness of Ryze is exploited by Cass in lane, and Cass has no weakness that Ryze could exploit there.
- Ryze cannot cast any spell without allowing Cass to hit him with her Q. Ryze stands still when he casts, which makes it trivial for Cass to hit with a Q (then EEEE). This is the single biggest reason Cass dominates Ryze in lane. If you try to harrass, she'll land every spell and outdamage you easily, since her Q/E cooldowns are really low. If you try to last hit with spells, she'll poke you with a Q and you can't do anything about it.
- Starting at level 1, Cass pushes the lane faster than Ryze, and more mana-efficiently than Ryze. Until 6, Ryze can't do anything about this and will lose cs to tower if Cass wants him to. For the same reason, Ryze can't afford to harrass Cass, he runs out of mana too fast and then can't farm. While you're OOM trying to last hit under tower, Cass can roam and gank lanes.
- Ryze cannot kite Cass at all. Rune prison range isn't enough to avoid being hit by Q while snared.
- Cass can kite Ryze all day long. W to slow him, or even better, Q in his path and you're faster than Ryze. If Ryze tries to chase you, he can't catch up: Q gives you a movement speed buff, plus it's delayed, so you can damage him from outside rune prison range (while still outrunning him).
Edit: I also played Ryze vs LB yesterday. The LB was playing badly and still made laning a terror, but it was much easier for me than Ryze vs Cass. If you can play it safe vs LB at the cost of CS, you won the lane. If you do the same against Cass, you lost the lane (IMO).
Post-6 it's even worse, especially if she gets revolver/wota. If you ever W her 1v1 you're in range for her R>Q>E>W>E + ignite and straight up 100-0 you. If she has 2+ points in E, a single Q landing on you means half your health bar gone, and again if you turn around to W she will ult and kill you. Even if you miraculously stay close in cs and not die in lane (a feat in itself), she would shove your lane and roam much more easily.
Your only hope is to W her in place for a jungle gank and turn your back to her ult, then hope you can 2v1 her. And if they countergank you're just screwed.
I don't know how other Ryze players handle it, but I feel you almost have to run MR blues and MS quints, rush negatron, and tell your jungle you NEED pressure early. Cassio is the hardest counter for him I can think of, and I always pick Cassio if they pick Ryze.
On March 22 2012 04:03 Sandster wrote: Post-6 it's even worse, especially if she gets revolver/wota. If you ever W her 1v1 you're in range for her R>Q>E>W>E + ignite and straight up 100-0 you. If she has 2+ points in E, a single Q landing on you means half your health bar gone, and again if you turn around to W she will ult and kill you. Even if you miraculously stay close in cs and not die in lane (a feat in itself), she would shove your lane and roam much more easily.
Your only hope is to W her in place for a jungle gank and turn your back to her ult, then hope you can 2v1 her. And if they countergank you're just screwed.
I don't know how other Ryze players handle it, but I feel you almost have to run MR blues and MS quints, rush negatron, and tell your jungle you NEED pressure early. Cassio is the hardest counter for him I can think of, and I always pick Cassio if they pick Ryze.
Totally agree. Like others suggested, I now always ban Cass if I first-pick Ryze, and if I'm second pick and don't know their mid, an Cass isn't banned, I won't pick Ryze.
With LB, even if a little fed she's not that threatening in late-game fights compared to Ryze. This is not at all true of Cass.
Just got manhandled by a Galio as Ryze. Didn't help that their Twitch killed me at level 2 >.< How do you guys lane vs Galio? If Ryze gets countered, what would you lane vs a Galio instead?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, take dragon for free.
If you're unable to do anything to your opponent in lane it doesn't mean you're useless. Try to give other lanes an advantage where yours would mean nothing because GALIO NEVER EVER TAKES DAMAGE FROM ANYTHING LOL.
Galio mid gets manhandled by any sort of AD mid if you're looking to counterpick, though.
On April 02 2012 23:47 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: Just got manhandled by a Galio as Ryze. Didn't help that their Twitch killed me at level 2 >.< How do you guys lane vs Galio? If Ryze gets countered, what would you lane vs a Galio instead?
If you get ganked and killed level 2 it doesn't really matter who you are laning against lol. Galio doesn't counter Ryze, he can outpush you early on but so can a lot of champions. Once you get blue it just becomes a farmfest, you can't kill him, he can't kill you.
On April 03 2012 00:00 noggnoskill wrote: Oh, no, I've got counterpicked mid, what do I do?
Roam, roam, roam to bot, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, take dragon for free.
If you're unable to do anything to your opponent in lane it doesn't mean you're useless. Try to give other lanes an advantage where yours would mean nothing because GALIO NEVER EVER TAKES DAMAGE FROM ANYTHING LOL.
Wat, how is that gonna work? Galio pushes way harder than Ryze, unless Galio is brainafk you're never gonna get free ganks bot. Also Galio with ult is a way better earlygame bottom ganker than Ryze, the last thing you wanna do is provoke some sort of fight.
On April 03 2012 00:00 noggnoskill wrote: Oh, no, I've got counterpicked mid, what do I do?
Roam, roam, roam to bot, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, take dragon for free.
If you're unable to do anything to your opponent in lane it doesn't mean you're useless. Try to give other lanes an advantage where yours would mean nothing because GALIO NEVER EVER TAKES DAMAGE FROM ANYTHING LOL.
Galio mid gets manhandled by any sort of AD mid if you're looking to counterpick, though.
against a galio, there's no way you can push out hard enough to be able to roam without just losing your tower. Strong pushers can get away with that crap because there's limited threat to their tower, ryze is not a strong pusher. So, if you just peace from mid, it's actually really easy for galio to either follow you down bot, or just take your tower.
He's not going to one-shot the wave until like 8-10. Yeah, you can't just abandon your lane completely and throw one barrel to clear the lane every so often like Gragas, but you're not going to lose mid tower for roaming 2-4 times from levels 4-10 unless he brings his jungler to kill it with him, in which case you can dive bot and get two kills and take THAT tower.
Again, unless he is retarded he can just follow you down bot and then you're fucked when you get counterganked by a surprise flash Galio ult. Also, Ryze has to be onr of the worst botgankers in the game, because his ult doesn't give him giant burst damage, unlike almost every other AP.
In the situation of Ryze against galio, you probably want to swap lanes with your toplaner. If you have someone like udyr/ww/yorick/nasus top, they can completely shit on galio and otherwise they can trade farm at the least.
Ryze should avoid laning agaist Galio as much as possible, because Galio is as tanky as Ryze and does a ton more damage earlygame.
He has a targeted ranged disable, and even though its range isn't the greatest in the world, if it lands it's almost a guaranteed kill unless they have imba Soraka heals. He can gank bot just fine.
Obviously Galio has something he can do about anything Ryze can do, that's why he's the go-to counterpick for Ryze. When you get counterpicked, you either outplay your opponent or you're behind. You can't sit in lane against him and expect to get ahead. I'm not saying you can easily beat Galio with Ryze, I'm saying you need to try to make plays so you aren't worthless for the majority of the game.
How do you guys lane Ryze vs Veigar? I played a game where the jungler had it in for me, but even without that I'm not so sure how I should've beaten him. I'm 1600~ elo, Veigar was 1800.
On April 09 2012 19:36 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: How do you guys lane Ryze vs Veigar? I played a game where the jungler had it in for me, but even without that I'm not so sure how I should've beaten him. I'm 1600~ elo, Veigar was 1800.
You can harass with q early as mana allows (overload outranges veigar q and stunning you will cost him a lot of mana). He might be able to burst you at one point or another, but Ryzes core build involves a Banshees, so you are generally safe against that and you do way way more sustained damage and sustain a lot better.
Ryze has a lot going for him in that match-up, don't know what your problem is with it.
On April 09 2012 19:36 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: How do you guys lane Ryze vs Veigar? I played a game where the jungler had it in for me, but even without that I'm not so sure how I should've beaten him. I'm 1600~ elo, Veigar was 1800.
You can harass with q early as mana allows (overload outranges veigar q and stunning you will cost him a lot of mana). He might be able to burst you at one point or another, but Ryzes core build involves a Banshees, so you are generally safe against that and you do way way more sustained damage and sustain a lot better.
Ryze has a lot going for him in that match-up, don't know what your problem is with it.
Do you just start wailing on him at level 1? Do you start chrystal +2 pots, boots +3hp pots or boots 2hp1mana?
At level 1 there is usually not much point. You have a small mana pool, spells don't do much damage for their mana cost and your auto attacks will be punished by the minions. Plus playing aggressively will make you more gankable. If you have full mana and your opponent is in range you might as well use it and throw out a spell, but he will regen his health faster than you will regen the mana at level 1.
I usually start harassing more at lvl 3, but focus on farming and only harass when you can. I pretty much always start boots+3 pots.
-vs skillshot champs, start boots3 and MS quints. Do boots2+1 if you are bad at last hitting and need the mana. Otherwise you can probably get away with sapph2. -vs champs who try to 100-0 you, use at least MR blues and rush catalyst+negatron. Complete the full banshee if you think it'll help, but otherwise get the tear or NMM (for merc) at this point. -Q does garbage damage at rank 1. Generally (but not always) you want to wait until 3 to harass with Q, because otherwise it's just so mana inefficient.
So while I'm not that experienced in ryze vs veigar lane, my first instincts would be to do sapph2 opener and see what type of veigar he is. Most will use their Q to farm, which lets you harass early as long as you have mana. If they're the type that harasses with Q you should try to avoiding trading with him until 3. Do not let him combo you at 6 before you buy health crystal.
On April 10 2012 00:22 Sandster wrote: General rule of thumbs with Ryze:
-vs skillshot champs, start boots3 and MS quints. Do boots2+1 if you are bad at last hitting and need the mana. Otherwise you can probably get away with sapph2. -vs champs who try to 100-0 you, use at least MR blues and rush catalyst+negatron. Complete the full banshee if you think it'll help, but otherwise get the tear or NMM (for merc) at this point. -Q does garbage damage at rank 1. Generally (but not always) you want to wait until 3 to harass with Q, because otherwise it's just so mana inefficient.
So while I'm not that experienced in ryze vs veigar lane, my first instincts would be to do sapph2 opener and see what type of veigar he is. Most will use their Q to farm, which lets you harass early as long as you have mana. If they're the type that harasses with Q you should try to avoiding trading with him until 3. Do not let him combo you at 6 before you buy health crystal.
Thanks a bunch, carrying games again. Kind of silly how I have a 80% winrate over like 30 games and still feel like I'm fluking the laning phase every game >.< The keeping harass low-key untill level 3~ is super key.
On April 10 2012 00:22 Sandster wrote: General rule of thumbs with Ryze:
-vs skillshot champs, start boots3 and MS quints. Do boots2+1 if you are bad at last hitting and need the mana. Otherwise you can probably get away with sapph2. -vs champs who try to 100-0 you, use at least MR blues and rush catalyst+negatron. Complete the full banshee if you think it'll help, but otherwise get the tear or NMM (for merc) at this point. -Q does garbage damage at rank 1. Generally (but not always) you want to wait until 3 to harass with Q, because otherwise it's just so mana inefficient.
So while I'm not that experienced in ryze vs veigar lane, my first instincts would be to do sapph2 opener and see what type of veigar he is. Most will use their Q to farm, which lets you harass early as long as you have mana. If they're the type that harasses with Q you should try to avoiding trading with him until 3. Do not let him combo you at 6 before you buy health crystal.
Thanks a bunch, carrying games again. Kind of silly how I have a 80% winrate over like 30 games and still feel like I'm fluking the laning phase every game >.< The keeping harass low-key untill level 3~ is super key.
Always boots first imo. More health, better against harass, easier to harass with, better against ganks, easier to support ganks with. Movespeed so important in laning.
On April 09 2012 19:36 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: How do you guys lane Ryze vs Veigar? I played a game where the jungler had it in for me, but even without that I'm not so sure how I should've beaten him. I'm 1600~ elo, Veigar was 1800.
You can harass with q early as mana allows (overload outranges veigar q and stunning you will cost him a lot of mana). He might be able to burst you at one point or another, but Ryzes core build involves a Banshees, so you are generally safe against that and you do way way more sustained damage and sustain a lot better.
Ryze has a lot going for him in that match-up, don't know what your problem is with it.
Do you just start wailing on him at level 1? Do you start chrystal +2 pots, boots +3hp pots or boots 2hp1mana?
I'd say wait for level 3. Level 1 q is hardly good. You can start your harass at level 3. Port back, rush tear and spam away.
Seems pretty varied. Like the minimal requirements is the 9 in offense and 9 in utility but after that I've seen 9/9/12, 9/12/9, and 9/0/21. Shouldn't you just be taking the mastery pages depending on your lane opponent? Same with runes. I usually see people using mpen marks, mr glyphs, and ms quints but that varies also.
On April 20 2012 04:39 koreasilver wrote: Seems pretty varied. Like the minimal requirements is the 9 in offense and 9 in utility but after that I've seen 9/9/12, 9/12/9, and 9/0/21. Shouldn't you just be taking the mastery pages depending on your lane opponent? Same with runes. I usually see people using mpen marks, mr glyphs, and ms quints but that varies also.
are mana glyphs (flat or per level) a terrible idea? i read a guide that had them and was wondering if people actually did that
After experimenting with it and playing lots of Ryze, I generally use defensive masteries, which I feel help you best to survive against aggressive lanes (literally 50% of my matchups are vs cassio) and making you more tanky for lategame, while still giving you cdr and movementspeed (9/21/0 or 9/18/3, juggernaut is really tempting, but i often end up with mercs anyway for tenacity and 200 mana on a 4000 mana pool is still 5% more lategame). Not having buff duration is a huge annoyance though and I always wish I had it along with the mana regen.When I went for 9/9/12 I was missing the cdr and with 9/0/21 I feel I am too squishy.
Ryze is quite flexible anyway. Scarra uses 9/0/21, which most people use. Jiji uses 0/21/9 I believe.The most standard would be 9/0/21 and magic pen reds, flat mr blues and movementspeed quints. Yellows are up in the air and can be manaregen(/lvl), mana/lvl, health/lvl or flat armor.
On April 20 2012 04:39 koreasilver wrote: Seems pretty varied. Like the minimal requirements is the 9 in offense and 9 in utility but after that I've seen 9/9/12, 9/12/9, and 9/0/21. Shouldn't you just be taking the mastery pages depending on your lane opponent? Same with runes. I usually see people using mpen marks, mr glyphs, and ms quints but that varies also.
are mana glyphs (flat or per level) a terrible idea? i read a guide that had them and was wondering if people actually did that
I don't really play Ryze but Ryze has a noticeably weak early game and I imagine that he would get screwed even harder than he already get screwed in a lot of matchups if you decide not to take mr glyphs. Mr glyphs really help a lot and I've taken mr quints in a couple matchups too to help him survive his early game against some nasty lane opponents. You really get all the mana you need from items, and Ryze isn't a champ that unloads his spells then hangs back either, so I imagine mr glyphs are better in trades anyway.
Has anyone played Ryze yet after the changes? I'm not really shure if its an overall buff or nerf. I mean most of the shit is buffs but the range nerf on Q probably really hurts.
On May 04 2012 21:23 Woony wrote: Has anyone played Ryze yet after the changes? I'm not really shure if its an overall buff or nerf. I mean most of the shit is buffs but the range nerf on Q probably really hurts.
Q range and snare reduction are the biggest real changes. I've been experimenting with a quicker RoA (before glacial) and it is similar.
Thinking of maybe doing a 2x AA build sometime, but haven't had any long games for that.
On April 20 2012 04:39 koreasilver wrote: Seems pretty varied. Like the minimal requirements is the 9 in offense and 9 in utility but after that I've seen 9/9/12, 9/12/9, and 9/0/21. Shouldn't you just be taking the mastery pages depending on your lane opponent? Same with runes. I usually see people using mpen marks, mr glyphs, and ms quints but that varies also.
are mana glyphs (flat or per level) a terrible idea? i read a guide that had them and was wondering if people actually did that
I don't really play Ryze but Ryze has a noticeably weak early game and I imagine that he would get screwed even harder than he already get screwed in a lot of matchups if you decide not to take mr glyphs. Mr glyphs really help a lot and I've taken mr quints in a couple matchups too to help him survive his early game against some nasty lane opponents. You really get all the mana you need from items, and Ryze isn't a champ that unloads his spells then hangs back either, so I imagine mr glyphs are better in trades anyway.
I do mana glyphs in my Ryze page and I feel like the extra early game Q used to help a lot. But with MR being more and more common, I agree with this.
On May 05 2012 05:29 Schmieds wrote: Is it any more useful to build AP on him now? Useful enough that I should consider getting a couple straight AP items?
Like WotA, Void staff and RoA? Yeah.
Ryze still wicked fucking strong really irritating when he is on the opposing team. Wtb nerfs
Had a few games with Ryze now, my observations are the same as Scarra's. Long range champs like Cass will probably rape him to the point where it's impossible to pick him early. RoA builds will make him deal more damage than before, but at most points in the game you're also going to have less survivability. The ult movementspeed is less noticable than I thought.
I think boots, tear, cata -> RoA, revolver, glacial looks like a pretty good core build now. then either build banshee's or finish frozen heart. when you need MR to survive lane you obviously still can get an early negatron and either build banshee's first or after RoA.
final build imo RoA banshee's frozen heart mercs WotA rylai's or voidstaff. probably voidstaff most of the time now since RoA + Banshee's should be enough HP.
With the changes, how have been people altered their Ryze rune pages? I've fairly much abandoned any sort of flat mana runes now for matchup-specific defensive runes (despite the MR nerfs) to survive his even-more-shaky early game and just focusing on last-hitting; past few rankeds I managed to stay even/ahead of a Cass and an Ahri, despite losing second blue buff to our jungler each time (Naut W DoT/Shyv W too hard to not turn on, apparently). Ran 9/0/21 against Cass and 9/21/0 against Ahri, but with the benefits from AP, has anyone tried a more glass cannon 21/x/x build?
Also, if you're skipping Void Staff rather than WotA to make room for a RoA, is it still optimal to go Mercs over Sorcs?
you should not be ahead of cass at any point in laning unless she's died or is bad (more likely)
void v WotA v RoA and mercs v sorcs is still situational imo - mercs vs sorcs - if they dont have a significant CC component or you are ahead enough to abuse your sorcs as soon you can purchase them, sorcs are decent, but mercs against most teams' CC is typically a better lategame buy if they're stacking mres void staff is probably still a great buy if nobody else is really benefiting from the WotA, its probably not a worthwhile buy - still has its place on a 6 item build if needed RoA should generally be gotten early if its going to be gotten - if you needed to rush that bveil early and need to build a new one from scratch lategame, its probably not worthwhile
New Ryze does more damage than before (definitely more damage early/mid game and arguably more damage late game in teamfights) using the exact same build. I don't see the point of building RoA and sacrificing durability when the same old Ryze build is giving arguably more damage at all phases of the game compared to his old self.
On May 09 2012 02:40 ArC_man wrote: New Ryze does more damage than before (definitely more damage early/mid game and arguably more damage late game in teamfights) using the exact same build. I don't see the point of building RoA and sacrificing durability when the same old Ryze build is giving arguably more damage at all phases of the game compared to his old self.
The point of RoA is that the AP gives him even more damage now. I use RoA situationally now when I don't really need the banshees. That's about the only thing I changed with the Ryze changes.
I can see the not needing the banshees, given standard team comps nowadays are ad bruiser ad jungler, but given ryze's range on his spells/aa do you ever feel the need for a little bit of extra bulk with the MR? or is the HP from RoA enough?
Building him the same way as last patch I honestly feel is still the best way to go.
Boots+3 > Tear > Glacial Shroud or Negatronz > tier2 boots > FH or Banshees. Then complete the other one. Then WoTA > Finish Archangels > GA.
If you ever get this full build (Merc, Frozen Heart, Banshees, GA, WoTA, Archangels) you won't die. And if you do die, you pop back up, can do you full combo again and keep on trucking.
On May 09 2012 05:40 Mystogun wrote: I can see the not needing the banshees, given standard team comps nowadays are ad bruiser ad jungler, but given ryze's range on his spells/aa do you ever feel the need for a little bit of extra bulk with the MR? or is the HP from RoA enough?
Well, if their mid is not threatening to me (like a very underfarmed sion last time I went RoA over Banshees) and they don't have any other magic damage, RoA is a good choice. It's a situation where the MR wouldn't actually give you extra bulk.
On May 10 2012 00:40 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: new ryze sucks balls. i can agree with the focus on more ap and less on mana, but why
- reduce Q range? - reduce W snare time? - reduce ultimate spellvamp!! WTF 15% is almost nothing
if they would change Q back to its former range and give the same spellvamp as before to the ultimate i wouldn't be a sad panda
V1.0.0.116: Desperate Power: Desperate Power spell vamp now scales to 15/20/25% from 15%.
You really want to revert the last change done to his ult's spellvamp? They reduced it all because he can cast more often due to lowered mana costs, and with more damage early game. Now he has to take more risks to cast, since he's got less range, making his harass more potent but also riskier.
V1.0.0.116: Desperate Power: Desperate Power spell vamp now scales to 15/20/25% from 15%.
You really want to revert the last change done to his ult's spellvamp? They reduced it all because he can cast more often due to lowered mana costs, and with more damage early game. Now he has to take more risks to cast, since he's got less range, making his harass more potent but also riskier.
well yes? now it's 15% across all levels, it used to be 25 at 16 and onwards before the last patch <.<
On May 09 2012 00:30 Haasts wrote: With the changes, how have been people altered their Ryze rune pages? I've fairly much abandoned any sort of flat mana runes now for matchup-specific defensive runes (despite the MR nerfs) to survive his even-more-shaky early game and just focusing on last-hitting; past few rankeds I managed to stay even/ahead of a Cass and an Ahri, despite losing second blue buff to our jungler each time (Naut W DoT/Shyv W too hard to not turn on, apparently). Ran 9/0/21 against Cass and 9/21/0 against Ahri, but with the benefits from AP, has anyone tried a more glass cannon 21/x/x build?
Also, if you're skipping Void Staff rather than WotA to make room for a RoA, is it still optimal to go Mercs over Sorcs?
Umm ryze with his new range, gets wrecked even harder by cass. seriously, just beg for top to switch lanes if you end up with him against cass. ahri is pretty troublesome also as she can charm and combo you if you try to poke now.
On May 09 2012 00:30 Haasts wrote: With the changes, how have been people altered their Ryze rune pages? I've fairly much abandoned any sort of flat mana runes now for matchup-specific defensive runes (despite the MR nerfs) to survive his even-more-shaky early game and just focusing on last-hitting; past few rankeds I managed to stay even/ahead of a Cass and an Ahri, despite losing second blue buff to our jungler each time (Naut W DoT/Shyv W too hard to not turn on, apparently). Ran 9/0/21 against Cass and 9/21/0 against Ahri, but with the benefits from AP, has anyone tried a more glass cannon 21/x/x build?
Also, if you're skipping Void Staff rather than WotA to make room for a RoA, is it still optimal to go Mercs over Sorcs?
Umm ryze with his new range, gets wrecked even harder by cass. seriously, just beg for top to switch lanes if you end up with him against cass. ahri is pretty troublesome also as she can charm and combo you if you try to poke now.
I've always assumed that Ryze was one of Ahri's hard counters. He can completely wreck her if he gets a snare on her.
On May 09 2012 00:30 Haasts wrote: With the changes, how have been people altered their Ryze rune pages? I've fairly much abandoned any sort of flat mana runes now for matchup-specific defensive runes (despite the MR nerfs) to survive his even-more-shaky early game and just focusing on last-hitting; past few rankeds I managed to stay even/ahead of a Cass and an Ahri, despite losing second blue buff to our jungler each time (Naut W DoT/Shyv W too hard to not turn on, apparently). Ran 9/0/21 against Cass and 9/21/0 against Ahri, but with the benefits from AP, has anyone tried a more glass cannon 21/x/x build?
Also, if you're skipping Void Staff rather than WotA to make room for a RoA, is it still optimal to go Mercs over Sorcs?
Umm ryze with his new range, gets wrecked even harder by cass. seriously, just beg for top to switch lanes if you end up with him against cass. ahri is pretty troublesome also as she can charm and combo you if you try to poke now.
I've always assumed that Ryze was one of Ahri's hard counters. He can completely wreck her if he gets a snare on her.
Early on in laning until Ryze gets mercs + negatron, ahri has no trouble bursting ryze down if ryze gets charmed. With his short range, it's rather easy to have a charm occur. If you can hit mid-late game on an even footing Ryze will start beating out ahri but it's by no means a hard counter.
When I used to play Ryze I'd skip arcangels usually in favor of being really tanky (RoA, FH, BV), but now that Ryze does less damage from mana, how should I build him? I usually start going for a catalyst, but would tear be better to go for?
Aa is really strong. Like 3rd item after tear and RoA. Its damage is stunning now, well worth the 1860 gold. But im not sure if perhaps glacial shroud is better to get the cdr going beforehand.
I don't get why people get RoA on him. IMO early negatron/banshees is really necessary on him to win trades against enemy mid. Also, getting RoA after that is feels too late. But I've seen pros do it so I may be wrong. Anyone knows why?
I just feel that once U got mercs, tear, catalyst+negatron/banshee's, glacial you get almos unkillable and do enough damage.
On May 29 2012 07:24 ekra wrote: I don't get why people get RoA on him. IMO early negatron/banshees is really necessary on him to win trades against enemy mid. Also, getting RoA after that is feels too late. But I've seen pros do it so I may be wrong. Anyone knows why?
I just feel that once U got mercs, tear, catalyst+negatron/banshee's, glacial you get almos unkillable and do enough damage.
RoA is the biggest damage boost to Ryze in the game after AA. It's also great hp pool which lets you be a bit tankier and the catalyst passive is amazing.
I've played ryze a good bit recently, and RoA is amazing on him. The only problem I'm having is fitting it in. Tear+cata are the core two mana items and the build paths I've done lately: boots+3 is core and then what I do from there depends on the lane
A. Easy lanes tear > catalyst > RoA > mercs > Either glacial or another cata for Banshees B. Harder lanes Catalyst > negatron > tear > mercs/banshee > glacial
The reason why people get RoA on Ryze is that he has actual AP ratios now and RoA gives a massive amount of mana.
For example: Frozen Heart: 500 mana Banshees: 375 mana RoA: 525+200 mana
It gives more mana than any of the other core items besides a pretty highly charged tear. With ratios of 0.4/0.6/0.35, Ryze also benefits quite a bit from the AP on the RoA.
Essentially, a RoA is for Ryze, what a deathcap is for most champions, massive damage. The extra health is just a very nice bonus.
On May 29 2012 23:12 Diderick wrote: I started building early revolver on ryze, for really good sustain like, boots+3-tear-cata-revolver. Is this to much focus on sustain?
The thing with Ryze is you need to open different items vs every champion.
Going Catalyst then Revolver then Negatron then Tear would be good vs Cassio.
But vs Annie you'd want to go Tear then Catalyst then Glacial Shroud/Negatron and skip revolver until late.
Different build every game pretty much.
BTW I quit playing Ryze when he got his last change, but this is assuming Shoes+FH+AA+WotA+BV+6th is still the standard final build on him.
it delays your big nuking items - roa, glacial shroud and AA. so you cant snowball as well with it. imo using the low cooldown ult to sustain up is enough
Hi, Since I've found my self playing a lot of league recently I stumbled upon this subforum (as someone who had every forum but BW and blogs deactivated). So I've been trying to play Ryze the last few days, cuz none of my buddies really likes midlane. (When she was free2play i prefered Ahri, but so much IP ...). I did really well against Veigar, Annie and Yi (happens in normals lvl 23) but got shit on by Fiddlesticks and Fizz. I didnt know about Fizz' skillset so I was really confused that I wasnt able to snare him when he tower dived me with this jumpthing. Any tipps on playing against this guy? Fiddle was a pain too play against too, these silence bounces completely annihilated me so that I was scared like hell to get into range to land my combo. I had better farm somehow but he got two kills in laning phase (and we were losing the other lanes too). I started boots+3 in everyone of these games.
Additionally I have found myself having trouble pushing the lane fast enough too roam or too pressure the tower. Any tipps on how to push fastest with Ryze? Should I use my ultimate for it if I have enough mana? Or is like destroying the tower with the help of your jungler the only good way to go?
Regarding pushing, once you have your ultimate it's not bad to use it to push, especially if you have blue buff or an early glacial shroud, as the cooldown reduction + your passive make it be available every so often.
Against Fizz, he is basically inferior to you pre-level 3 because he needs his charge (Q) to get to you without eating spells, and his jump (E) to disengage without, again, eating 1-2 Q more. If he only uses them he isn't doing a whole lot of damage so he'll want at least a point in his DoT (W) to make the trades worth it. Basically, abuse his jump's cooldown as he can't fight you without it, especially in the first levels, and try to snare him when he rushes you so you're sure to land some spells before he jumps. If you start boots and he doesn't you can follow him to stay in range and land 1-2 more spells when he becomes targetable again.
Basically, unless he outtrades you at every turn and you would lose a fight to the death, don't hesitate to harass him while his jump is on cooldown. The biggest danger is getting slowly harassed and then burst down in one go when he hits 6, always buy some potions when you shop to keep yourself healthy. Also, against this kind of champs you can go catalyst before tear, as it'll give you survivability. Fizz's peak is in the midgame like most mages, while Ryze is a lategame monster. If you manage to farm up your core and some MR you should be able to kill him very easily later on.
Fizz is primarily a burst mage who relies on trying to 100-0 you or 80-0 you the second he hits 6 and gets his fish. The best way to avoid getting behind is to harass him with autoattacks and Q's in the first three levels. You will outtrade him 100% since he has to come within melee range of you to hurt you and in melee range, your creeps are going to help smash his face in since he can't hop away. You should be able to easily either deny him from getting creeps or force a potion or two from fizz by level 3.
Before you hit level 4, make sure you're at full health. Fizz can try and abuse their available combo and all-in you here. To stop the combo from happening or if it does happen, ignite+QWEQ fizz and auto-attack him after that. You should be able to combo him down to 1/3rd of his health pretty easily and if you were full health, you shouldn't die from it.
The moment you hit 6, you should QREQW,Q and base. buying a mana crystal+ruby crystal +pots +ward. Once you have a catalyst built, unless you fell seriously far behind, you've won the lane since fizz can't combo you and your combo hurts more than his does.
Against fiddlesticks, you have to realize you're going to eat his dark wind since it's longer range than anything you have. All you can do is hope that it doesn't bounce to you more than once. Harassing fiddle isn't a lost cause as most people think. You have to burst him, namely QWEQ him from level 4 onwards. Harassing him with Q's isn't going to do anything really. At level 6 with blue buff, you should have your ultimate up for pretty much every other creep wave, Use it to clear creeps and send creeps into his tower. Fiddle is trash at wave clear.
Ryze a terrible character at actually killing the tower since he has neither AD nor AP early-mid game. (AP helps kill towers as well, ~40% of it goes towards damage against towers). You want to clear the wave with your ultimate and just let the creeps wash up onto the tower.
In 70% of games, you will want mercs on Ryze. The 30% comes when your lane is less bursty and lacks CC and the primary incoming damage from the other team is physical and doesn't have many slows/snares. To be fair though, mercs are never a bad choice. Sorcs just up the damage you deal by a huge amount if they other team doesn't build large amounts of MR.
I recently picked up Ryze and read a few guides on solomid and one thing i dont understand is that the recommended combo is QWQEQ-R-combo again, why does it more dmg that activating R and facerolling your whole combo?
On July 13 2012 02:00 AsnSensation wrote: I recently picked up Ryze and read a few guides on solomid and one thing i dont understand is that the recommended combo is QWQEQ-R-combo again, why does it more dmg that activating R and facerolling your whole combo?
Q does the biggest damage, so you have to arrange your combo such that you are always Q'ing.
You do this by abusing your passive, and always using an ability while Q is on CD.
At 40% CDR, Q has CD of 2.1 seconds. -1 for using 1 ability while on CD = 1.1 seconds, this is almost continual Q after factoring in cast animation time.
ah ok that makes sense thx for the explanation guys, so early when I only have masteries for cdr I do the usual QWE but later after frozen heart+bluebuff etc basically being capped cdr I QWQEQ etc .
Your combo can change depending on the gametime and your intended goal.
Against a single target, the highest sustained damage combo is QWQEQRQWQEQ but using this combo isn't efficient until you have 40% cdr.
From levels 1-3, you should just be throwing out Q's. At level 4, you can do QWEQ. In a teamfight, You generally want frontloaded AoE burst instead of sustained damage, therefore going QR(activating R before the Q lands)QWQEQ,QWQEQ is actually slightly better overall for your team than doing the long combo.
Before you have 40% cdr, you will do more damage going QRWQE,Q and then using skills as they come off cooldown rather than trying to do a full combo.
9/0/21 is the general consensus on how to build ryze.
first 4 points in offense are up to preference. 2 points in butcher + wrath + 1 point in AD does pretty much the same damage as 3 points into mental force. The other 5 points are standard. Flat mana, movespeed, buff duration, gp10, experience, 6% cdr. Essentially, go down the middle column and then put all the other points anywhere you want.
On July 13 2012 17:38 101toss wrote: Do you guys like warmog's on ryze? I feel it's kinda good with all the resists you're buying
Why? RoA gives 630 health, not to mention a buttload of mana + AP. RoA is like Frozen Mallet on steroid for Ryze. If you're worried about lack of health, buy another RoA.
yeah 9-21-0 or 9-18-3 is definitely a much bigger presence in teamfights. About the rotation though, http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2068053 makes an articulated case that "QWEQQ" is the optimal rotation rather than "QRQWQEQ", even in the long run.
I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
I'd say masteries for Ryze highly, highly depend on the matchup, depending on if you're playing safe or aggressive. Also a bit on your teamcomp, if you can afford to be slightly more squishy, go for 9-0-21, but if you have to play bruiser (say assassin top, carry jungle or something like that where you need more meat on your team), 9-21-0 would be my go-to.
Then again, could have changed since I haven't played Ryze in a while.
On July 13 2012 23:28 Kavas wrote: I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
how does the utlity tree prevent from being rolledover in lane? Harass is more mana limited than cdr limited in lane so the extra 5 cdr from utility at start wouldnt help that much.
On July 13 2012 23:28 Kavas wrote: I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
how does the utlity tree prevent from being rolledover in lane? Harass is more mana limited than cdr limited in lane so the extra 5 cdr from utility at start wouldnt help that much.
? Get the mana mastery in the utility tree? Plus the extra rune affinity for extended blue buff? Trades are more based on CDR anyway.
What I particularly like is the summoner flash cd reduction. Having it up allows for so much plays.
On July 13 2012 23:28 Kavas wrote: I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
how does the utlity tree prevent from being rolledover in lane? Harass is more mana limited than cdr limited in lane so the extra 5 cdr from utility at start wouldnt help that much.
? Get the mana mastery in the utility tree? Plus the extra rune affinity for extended blue buff? Trades are more based on CDR anyway.
What I particularly like is the summoner flash cd reduction. Having it up allows for so much plays.
That still doesn't really answer how having the utility masteries help you against getting camped the first 5 minutes.
On July 13 2012 23:28 Kavas wrote: I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
how does the utlity tree prevent from being rolledover in lane? Harass is more mana limited than cdr limited in lane so the extra 5 cdr from utility at start wouldnt help that much.
? Get the mana mastery in the utility tree? Plus the extra rune affinity for extended blue buff? Trades are more based on CDR anyway.
What I particularly like is the summoner flash cd reduction. Having it up allows for so much plays.
So isnt the 9-18-3 best? You talk about utility inlane but with def tree you get the incredibly strong incomding dmg mastery and minion dmg reduction, and movement+mid/late game cdr. the main letdown is the buff extension i think - but in many cases with mana junglers its less relevant
On July 13 2012 23:28 Kavas wrote: I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
how does the utlity tree prevent from being rolledover in lane? Harass is more mana limited than cdr limited in lane so the extra 5 cdr from utility at start wouldnt help that much.
? Get the mana mastery in the utility tree? Plus the extra rune affinity for extended blue buff? Trades are more based on CDR anyway.
What I particularly like is the summoner flash cd reduction. Having it up allows for so much plays.
So isnt the 9-18-3 best? You talk about utility inlane but with def tree you get the incredibly strong incomding dmg mastery and minion dmg reduction, and movement+mid/late game cdr. the main letdown is the buff extension i think - but in many cases with mana junglers its less relevant
Strenght of Spirit - Increases health regen per 5 by 1% of you maxium mana. That talent is extremely good for Ryze.
I'd much rather have the defensive tree than going deep in support for mostly wasted talents. Ryze doesn't really need HP5 that much (not to mention that even fully built it gives very little hp5 -- 10hp5 per 1000 mana, or 2 health a second). It's trivial.
On July 13 2012 23:28 Kavas wrote: I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
how does the utlity tree prevent from being rolledover in lane? Harass is more mana limited than cdr limited in lane so the extra 5 cdr from utility at start wouldnt help that much.
? Get the mana mastery in the utility tree? Plus the extra rune affinity for extended blue buff? Trades are more based on CDR anyway.
What I particularly like is the summoner flash cd reduction. Having it up allows for so much plays.
So isnt the 9-18-3 best? You talk about utility inlane but with def tree you get the incredibly strong incomding dmg mastery and minion dmg reduction, and movement+mid/late game cdr. the main letdown is the buff extension i think - but in many cases with mana junglers its less relevant
Strenght of Spirit - Increases health regen per 5 by 1% of you maxium mana. That talent is extremely good for Ryze.
On July 13 2012 23:28 Kavas wrote: I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
how does the utlity tree prevent from being rolledover in lane? Harass is more mana limited than cdr limited in lane so the extra 5 cdr from utility at start wouldnt help that much.
? Get the mana mastery in the utility tree? Plus the extra rune affinity for extended blue buff? Trades are more based on CDR anyway.
What I particularly like is the summoner flash cd reduction. Having it up allows for so much plays.
So isnt the 9-18-3 best? You talk about utility inlane but with def tree you get the incredibly strong incomding dmg mastery and minion dmg reduction, and movement+mid/late game cdr. the main letdown is the buff extension i think - but in many cases with mana junglers its less relevant
Strenght of Spirit - Increases health regen per 5 by 1% of you maxium mana. That talent is extremely good for Ryze.
On July 15 2012 15:00 Craton wrote: I'd much rather have the defensive tree than going deep in support for mostly wasted talents. Ryze doesn't really need HP5 that much (not to mention that even fully built it gives very little hp5 -- 10hp5 per 1000 mana, or 2 health a second). It's trivial.
If you think about it this way, 1 seal of hp regen gives 0,43hp5. I start with around 400mana on ryze, so that talent gives 4hp5 at lvl1. Witch is equal to 9 seals of hp5. I sacrifice 4% cdr for it, witch is equal to 6 glyphs of cdr (0.65% per glyph).
On July 15 2012 15:00 Craton wrote: I'd much rather have the defensive tree than going deep in support for mostly wasted talents. Ryze doesn't really need HP5 that much (not to mention that even fully built it gives very little hp5 -- 10hp5 per 1000 mana, or 2 health a second). It's trivial.
If you think about it this way, 1 seal of hp regen gives 0,43hp5. I start with around 400mana on ryze, so that talent gives 4hp5 at lvl1. Witch is equal to 9 seals of hp5. I sacrifice 4% cdr for it, witch is equal to 6 glyphs of cdr (0.65% per glyph).
I dunno by the time you get enough Hp5 to be worth it i dont think it'll be that good, i mean 1500 mana would be 15hp/5 which point you should have a catalyst and not even really need the talent anymore. cdr still better imo
On July 15 2012 15:00 Craton wrote: I'd much rather have the defensive tree than going deep in support for mostly wasted talents. Ryze doesn't really need HP5 that much (not to mention that even fully built it gives very little hp5 -- 10hp5 per 1000 mana, or 2 health a second). It's trivial.
If you think about it this way, 1 seal of hp regen gives 0,43hp5. I start with around 400mana on ryze, so that talent gives 4hp5 at lvl1. Witch is equal to 9 seals of hp5. I sacrifice 4% cdr for it, witch is equal to 6 glyphs of cdr (0.65% per glyph).
I dunno by the time you get enough Hp5 to be worth it i dont think it'll be that good, i mean 1500 mana would be 15hp/5 which point you should have a catalyst and not even really need the talent anymore. cdr still better imo
having a good amount of hp regen is much much more worth than having a little bit of cdr during the laneing phase. also this passive heals you for a considerable amount after cata+tear too. pretty sure you'll notice it.
i think 9-21-0 and 9-0-21 have different playstyles and advantages. 21 def allows you to be the aggressor in lane against other relatively weak aps early game (ahri etc can go more aggro with autos and people you want to set up kills with w against) whereas 21 utility allows you to abuse your flash midgame with your burst but leaves you more defensive earlygame.
On July 15 2012 15:00 Craton wrote: I'd much rather have the defensive tree than going deep in support for mostly wasted talents. Ryze doesn't really need HP5 that much (not to mention that even fully built it gives very little hp5 -- 10hp5 per 1000 mana, or 2 health a second). It's trivial.
If you think about it this way, 1 seal of hp regen gives 0,43hp5. I start with around 400mana on ryze, so that talent gives 4hp5 at lvl1. Witch is equal to 9 seals of hp5. I sacrifice 4% cdr for it, witch is equal to 6 glyphs of cdr (0.65% per glyph).
3 points in strength of spirit is equal to 3 points in the cdr mastery. You're sacrificing 6% cdr which is 9 glyphs, the same as with 9 seals.
On July 13 2012 23:28 Kavas wrote: I would say 0-21-9 (Misaya and Bigfatjiji prefers this) if you are just starting and 9-0-21 after you feel like you have gotten used to how to lane him. Feel free to go straight to 9-0-21, I feel that is the best and more aggressive masteries to take (endorsed by scarra, nyjacky, Alex Ich, Paradoxical).
I've tried 9-21-0 and sorry to say but if you get camped mid for the first 5 minutes you will just get rolled over if the enemy mid is any competent. Also,that CD reduction on Flash is HUGE for teamfights.
how does the utlity tree prevent from being rolledover in lane? Harass is more mana limited than cdr limited in lane so the extra 5 cdr from utility at start wouldnt help that much.
? Get the mana mastery in the utility tree? Plus the extra rune affinity for extended blue buff? Trades are more based on CDR anyway.
What I particularly like is the summoner flash cd reduction. Having it up allows for so much plays.
So isnt the 9-18-3 best? You talk about utility inlane but with def tree you get the incredibly strong incomding dmg mastery and minion dmg reduction, and movement+mid/late game cdr. the main letdown is the buff extension i think - but in many cases with mana junglers its less relevant
Strenght of Spirit - Increases health regen per 5 by 1% of you maxium mana. That talent is extremely good for Ryze.
Just get Revolver...
Why would you dump 1200 gold early to replace 3 mastery points O.o; Especially since the first 2.5k gold is spoken for with catalyst / tear. SoS makes tear before catalyst a lot less risky. You're missing 4% CDR but that isn't going to change how ryze trading works - his Q is already shorter cooldown than anything it's trading against, and is still short enough that you can QWEQ at 4 as well.
On July 15 2012 15:00 Craton wrote: I'd much rather have the defensive tree than going deep in support for mostly wasted talents. Ryze doesn't really need HP5 that much (not to mention that even fully built it gives very little hp5 -- 10hp5 per 1000 mana, or 2 health a second). It's trivial.
If you think about it this way, 1 seal of hp regen gives 0,43hp5. I start with around 400mana on ryze, so that talent gives 4hp5 at lvl1. Witch is equal to 9 seals of hp5. I sacrifice 4% cdr for it, witch is equal to 6 glyphs of cdr (0.65% per glyph).
3 points in strength of spirit is equal to 3 points in the cdr mastery. You're sacrificing 6% cdr which is 9 glyphs, the same as with 9 seals.
No, i keep one point in cdr, so I only sacrifice 4%.
I have question which will probably apply to other heros as well, not sure. Im pretty new to Lol and I find it very difficult (annoying would be more precise actually) that if you dont go solo mid you have a hard time farming. His attack animation is so slow, so I try to lasthit with Q as mentioned in the OP. Still, with someone else on the lane I get much less farm and thus Archangels Staff and Rod of Ages much later in the game. Should I pick another hero then? I assume there are heros less dependent on items. Or maybe he can be support as well? But he has no heal, his disable lasts only 1.x seconds, so I guess he should be play as a AP dmg dealer....
On July 15 2012 15:00 Craton wrote: I'd much rather have the defensive tree than going deep in support for mostly wasted talents. Ryze doesn't really need HP5 that much (not to mention that even fully built it gives very little hp5 -- 10hp5 per 1000 mana, or 2 health a second). It's trivial.
If you think about it this way, 1 seal of hp regen gives 0,43hp5. I start with around 400mana on ryze, so that talent gives 4hp5 at lvl1. Witch is equal to 9 seals of hp5. I sacrifice 4% cdr for it, witch is equal to 6 glyphs of cdr (0.65% per glyph).
3 points in strength of spirit is equal to 3 points in the cdr mastery. You're sacrificing 6% cdr which is 9 glyphs, the same as with 9 seals.
No, i keep one point in cdr, so I only sacrifice 4%.
And you're only gaining 6 seals worth of HP5 since you'd put 1 point into it anyway if you had 3 in CDR.
On August 07 2012 04:56 Djin)ftw( wrote: I have question which will probably apply to other heros as well, not sure. Im pretty new to Lol and I find it very difficult (annoying would be more precise actually) that if you dont go solo mid you have a hard time farming. His attack animation is so slow, so I try to lasthit with Q as mentioned in the OP. Still, with someone else on the lane I get much less farm and thus Archangels Staff and Rod of Ages much later in the game. Should I pick another hero then? I assume there are heros less dependent on items. Or maybe he can be support as well? But he has no heal, his disable lasts only 1.x seconds, so I guess he should be play as a AP dmg dealer....
you are indeed very new man. if you go solomid, and somebody else comes with you, you know they are noobs. you are ALWAYS alone in mid, same with always having a jungler. and no ryze can't support, he can't even go top really or jungle either. just use him in mid. play well, beat those noobs so you get better allies and opponents and finally someday you may play mid alone =) ryze is a tanky mage dude, you don't build that much ap on him. tanky, mana+ a little ap
On August 07 2012 04:56 Djin)ftw( wrote: I have question which will probably apply to other heros as well, not sure. Im pretty new to Lol and I find it very difficult (annoying would be more precise actually) that if you dont go solo mid you have a hard time farming. His attack animation is so slow, so I try to lasthit with Q as mentioned in the OP. Still, with someone else on the lane I get much less farm and thus Archangels Staff and Rod of Ages much later in the game. Should I pick another hero then? I assume there are heros less dependent on items. Or maybe he can be support as well? But he has no heal, his disable lasts only 1.x seconds, so I guess he should be play as a AP dmg dealer....
you are indeed very new man. if you go solomid, and somebody else comes with you, you know they are noobs. you are ALWAYS alone in mid, same with always having a jungler. and no ryze can't support, he can't even go top really or jungle either. just use him in mid. play well, beat those noobs so you get better allies and opponents and finally someday you may play mid alone =) ryze is a tanky mage dude, you don't build that much ap on him. tanky, mana+ a little ap
na its usually like I pick Ryze, someone else picks another AP hero and then I wonder whether I should repick when I read "ME MID"
On August 07 2012 04:56 Djin)ftw( wrote: I have question which will probably apply to other heros as well, not sure. Im pretty new to Lol and I find it very difficult (annoying would be more precise actually) that if you dont go solo mid you have a hard time farming. His attack animation is so slow, so I try to lasthit with Q as mentioned in the OP. Still, with someone else on the lane I get much less farm and thus Archangels Staff and Rod of Ages much later in the game. Should I pick another hero then? I assume there are heros less dependent on items. Or maybe he can be support as well? But he has no heal, his disable lasts only 1.x seconds, so I guess he should be play as a AP dmg dealer....
you are indeed very new man. if you go solomid, and somebody else comes with you, you know they are noobs. you are ALWAYS alone in mid, same with always having a jungler. and no ryze can't support, he can't even go top really or jungle either. just use him in mid. play well, beat those noobs so you get better allies and opponents and finally someday you may play mid alone =) ryze is a tanky mage dude, you don't build that much ap on him. tanky, mana+ a little ap
na its usually like I pick Ryze, someone else picks another AP hero and then I wonder whether I should repick when I read "ME MID"
So you say he sucks if I cant go solo mid?
He can solo top vs specific matchups, but not many. Blind picking him top would be suicide, but counterpicking a top that has no gapcloser is alright.
ryze is one of my favorites in the whole game. when i play him i let the other guy push into my turret for the first few lvls because ryze is weak early game but really strong mid and late. you just have to practice last hitting at your turret (melee creeps take two tower shots and then you autoattack them once and you can kill them, the ranged creeps you auto attack once, let the tower hit them once, and then you autoattack and you get the last hit). dont be afraid to use your abilities to get last hits if necessary.
i think ryze is an excellent pick for mid. i played him from summoner lvl 20-30. you just have to understand what he is capable of (which comes with experience). i dont even try to get aggressive til i am lvl 7-9. you should have boots of speed, and your tear of the goddess, and hopefully a blue buff.
there are some mid champs that have an easier time farming (malzahar comes to mind). but mid and late game ryze dumps on most ap casters just by nature of buiding tanky and damage at the same time.
item wise i start boots + 3 potions, then get tear of the goddess, then build your rod of ages with catalyst first. i dont complete the archangel staff til later in the game usually after 1 or 2 defensive items like frozen heart, abyssal scepter, or (rarely these days) a banshees veil.
i think ryze is a perfectly good choice to learn the game with. he is not difficult to play compared to many other champs and he is extremely powerful. once you get some stacks going on your tear (like i said lvl 7-9) you can start bullying your lane opponent instead of having to play passive.
if you still have questions please ask them or i didnt understand what you were asking please let me know. farming at your turret will not be easy at first. just remember what i said about the melee and ranged creeps and in 10-15 games you will become much better at it. it just takes a bit of practice and you will be able to do it in your sleep.
edit: 'smart casting' makes playing ryze much easier imo. in the 'key bindings' section of the menu that comes up when you hit escape in game, change all your spells to smart cast. smart cast means that when you press 'q' that spell will fire on whatever your cursor is hovering over. you can get your combo out much faster with smart casting, instead of having to hit 'q' and then click on the enemy. this too just takes 10ish games to get used to and then you will never want to go back.
On August 07 2012 11:35 Sufficiency wrote: According to scarra, Ryze's lack of good lane shove is why he isn't seen as much as he used to. Nowadays all AP mids play the shove war.
On August 09 2012 01:09 h3r1n6 wrote: Since the op is pretty outdated, I think I'm gonna write a new Ryze thread.
So: Skills + useage + skill order Runes/masteries Item builds Match-ups
Anything else that should be included? Does someone know if I can use all the icons for spells and items from somewhere?
If you make a new ryze thread it might be removed. I think the way it works is you post whatever additions you want here and then the OP or Neo can update it
On August 09 2012 01:09 h3r1n6 wrote: Since the op is pretty outdated, I think I'm gonna write a new Ryze thread.
So: Skills + useage + skill order Runes/masteries Item builds Match-ups
Anything else that should be included? Does someone know if I can use all the icons for spells and items from somewhere?
If you make a new ryze thread it might be removed. I think the way it works is you post whatever additions you want here and then the OP or Neo can update it
Actually, you can ask Neo for thread ownership or make a new, high-quality guide like the new Kayle thread.