EPT[Champion] Ryze - Page 12
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:39 clickrush wrote: what do you mean by "need". You "need" damage and survivability. Roa gives the most damage is the most costefficient item after rageblade and still gives you a good chunk of survivability while the other ones are more catered towards specific survivability. Both veil and glacial shroud are costeffective but make you a lesser threat and Roa itself scales very well with those two items anyway and its no question what is better to get earlyer because of the strong sustain and stat/time. That's the thing. RoA is not an efficient investment off the bat--you invest a LOT in the AP right away, which doesn't go very far on you. Banshee's/Glacial give you immediate benefit. In some games, your team just can't afford to wait for you to let your Rod charge for 10 minutes, because by that time you'll have lost the game. I'm also not the only one who feels this way. Loci very frequently does not get Rod of Ages as well. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:39 clickrush wrote: what do you mean by "need". You "need" damage and survivability. Roa gives the most damage is the most costefficient item after rageblade and still gives you a good chunk of survivability while the other ones are more catered towards specific survivability. Both veil and glacial shroud are costeffective but make you a lesser threat and Roa itself scales very well with those two items anyway and its no question what is better to get earlyer because of the strong sustain and stat/time. The worst thing you can do on a damage dealer is to buy too much survivability when your pressured or even behind because you will be even less threatening or in the worst case ignoreable. Defensive items on damage dealers are either there to solve specific problems (QSS/mercs/ninja tabi etc.) or are luxuries to get when you want to press your advantage, in the same way as offensive items are luxuries on tanks to press their advantage. Ryze does not provide enough besides damage to neglect damage. That said, iam totally aware of the fact that both items give you significant damage too, but they are not comparable to RoA in that manner. And I even dare to say that the additional HP and sustain RoA gives you makes up for a better chunk of the defensive stats that glacial/veil give. CDR is the best way to itemize damage on Ryze due to its synergy with his passive. Like, let's take a fully charged RoA vs. a Frozen Heart RoA: 725 Mana 80 AP Frozen Heart: 500 Mana 20% CDR Let's assume the mana pool of both these builds is 2000 before the item in question. Let's also assume 10% CDR from level 5 Q and 9% CDR + 10 AP from 9/0/21 spec. We'll be talking level 10 with 5Q, 3W, 1E, 1R Here we go: RoA Total Mana: 2725 Total AP: 90 Total CDR: 19% Q damage: 140 + 18 (AP) + 218 (Mana) = 376 Q CD: 2.835 W damage: 130 + 54 (AP) + 136 (Mana) = 320 W CD: 11.34 E damage (assume 3 hits because we're super lucky!): (50 + 31.5) * 3 = 244.5 E CD: 11.34 R CD: 56.7 Over 10 secs (I'll assume 0.2 second cast animations on everything because I don't know any better) 0.00: Q (2.835, up, up, up) 376 0.20: W (1.635, 11.34, up, up) 696 0.40: E (0.435, 10.14, 11.34, up) 940.5 0.835: Q (2.835, 8.705, 9.905, up) 1316.5 1.035: R (1.635, 7.505, 8.705, down) 1316.5 2.67: Q (2.835, 4.87, 6.07, down) 1692.5 5.505: Q (2.835, 1.035, 2.235, down) 2068.5 6.54: W (0.8, 11.34, 0.2, down) 2388.5 7.34: Q (2.835, 9.54, up, down) 2764.5 7.54: E (1.635, 8.34, 11.34, down) 3009 9.175: Q (last spell) 3385 Frozen Heart Total Mana: 2500 Total AP: 10 Total CDR: 39% Q damage: 140 + 2 (AP) + 200 (Mana) = 342 Q CD: 2.135 W damage: 130 + 6 (AP) + 125 (Mana) = 261 W CD: 8.54 E damage (assume 3 hits because we're super lucky!): (50 + 3.5) * 3 = 160.5 E CD: 8.54 R CD: 42.7 Over 10 secs (I'll assume 0.2 second cast animations on everything because I don't know any better) 0.00: Q (2.135, up, up, up) 342 0.20: W (0.935, 8.54, up, up) 603 0.40: E (up, 7.34, 8.54, up) 763.5 0.60: Q (2.135, 6.14, 7.34, up) 1105.5 0.80: R (0.935, 4.94, 6.14, down) 1105.5 1.735: Q (2.135, 2.705, 3.905, down) 1447.5 3.87: Q (2.135, up, 0.77, down) 1789.5 4.07: W (0.935, 8.54, up, down) 2050.5 4.27: E (up, 7.34, 8.54, down) 2211 4.47: Q (2.135, 6.14, 7.34, down) 2553 6.605: Q (2.135, 3.005, 4.205, down) 2895 8.74: Q (2.135, up, 1.07, down) 3237 8.94: W (0.935, 8.54, up, down) 3498 9.14: E (up, 7.34, 8.54, down) 3658.5 9.34: Q (last spell) 4000.5 by 1.735, Frozen Heart has passed RoA. RoA passes again at 2.67, but then FH passes again at 3.87 and never looks back. Note that I cut RoA a lot of breaks here, using extra E hits for more AP scaling and counting it as full charged right off the bat. Not to mention as your mana goes up, FH scales way way way way harder due to all the extra spell casts. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
For me that means I get boots, cata, tear, glacial shroud and after that I upgrade roa. the upgrade from glacial shroud into FH doesnt seem to be that efficient since you gain only a little bit of mana and 5% cdr for about 1.2k gold. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On October 01 2011 05:23 clickrush wrote: holy thats some good work here. I dont understand it completely though. Basicly the longer the fight the better is FH ok. For me that means I get boots, cata, tear, glacial shroud and after that I upgrade roa. the upgrade from glacial shroud into FH doesnt seem to be that efficient since you gain only a little bit of mana and 5% cdr for about 1.2k gold. what it means that RoA is better than frozen heart if you run in circles for 10 minutes then 1 shot someone with your first spell otherwise frozen heart is better | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2011 05:23 clickrush wrote: For me that means I get boots, cata, tear, glacial shroud and after that I upgrade roa. the upgrade from glacial shroud into FH doesnt seem to be that efficient since you gain only a little bit of mana and 5% cdr for about 1.2k gold. Upgrading RoA after Glacial is way too late. Considering that cata+tear+glacial is ~4k gold, which is what you should be expecting to see around the 20 minute mark, you won't upgrade RoA till about 25 minutes, meaning it won't charge till about 35 minutes. Seeing as big fights happen during that 10 minute period, when other AP carries have DCap+working on Void and when AD carries have IE+working on LW/PD, charging RoA through that period is not ideal. And the main draw of the FHeart upgrade is the aura, which is extremely good in team-fights vs common triple-physical teams (AD bot, bruiser top, bruiser jungle). | ||
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Improbable
United States54 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Tears of Godess->Boots->catalyst->catalyst->archangel staff->RoA->Banshee veil (or another RoA)->Frozen Heart->Archangel staff. If I feel the game is probably going to end midgame, instead of late game. I'll just build 1 tears of godess, and 1 boots, and 4 catalysts. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On October 03 2011 01:43 wei2coolman wrote: This is my build: Tears of Godess->Boots->catalyst->catalyst->archangel staff->RoA->Banshee veil (or another RoA)->Frozen Heart->Archangel staff. If I feel the game is probably going to end midgame, instead of late game. I'll just build 1 tears of godess, and 1 boots, and 4 catalysts. i approve, i think every1 should build ryze this way all the time hint: drop tear for catalyst too and you'll be gold | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 03 2011 05:43 barbsq wrote: i approve, i think every1 should build ryze this way all the time hint: drop tear for catalyst too and you'll be gold Well I got tears, because magi pendent (mana regen) is a must need early game, allows to stay in lane forever. | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
And it gives you flexibility to go either tears or cata if something goes wrong in lane. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
Tear->speed1 boots -> glacial shroud ->negatron cloak and finish boots ->frozen heart ->banshee's veil If the game lasts long enough :2x rod of ages, or 1 RoA and void staff ->finish archangel Has anyone tried getting revolver for spell vamp. I tried a couple of games with it & found it really synergizes well with ur ult and allows u to 1v2 people easy & be really effective in team fights | ||
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TacToSs
Australia330 Posts
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mufin
United States616 Posts
On October 17 2011 13:29 TacToSs wrote: Does anyone have any tips on how to beat a Brand/Anivia in mid? Everytime I've gone Ryze (despite being limited) I'm up against a Brand/Anivia. I just get raped by their range and pushing power zzz for brand, i usually go boots/3pots instead of crystal simply to dodge his pillar. anivia is kinda the same but you can usually dodge her snowball without boots. also note brand/anivia stun is the ONLY thing that can zone you. With equal health, they cannot beat you in a 1v1 without their stun. Your consistent damage is just too high (QWQEQRQ) and the burst sustain from your ult will seal the deal. So your mindset shouldn't be trying to out-poke them but trying to force a 1v1 engagement where their stun is on cd. also if they have a full minion wave when you engage, throwing your ulted E at the minions instead of your opponent will give you a shit ton of health. hope this helps  . | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2011 13:29 TacToSs wrote: Does anyone have any tips on how to beat a Brand/Anivia in mid? Everytime I've gone Ryze (despite being limited) I'm up against a Brand/Anivia. I just get raped by their range and pushing power zzz Post-nerf Brand has lower/equal range than you (625 range on his E, compared to your 675 range Q/E and 625 range W)--at least on his full combo. If you're eating Qs/Ws at long range for free, then you need to get better at dodging them. Anivia you should crush pre-6, simply because of how she shouldn't be able to land Q reliably, and you can just Q her out of lane. If you over-commit, you might put yourself in a situation where she can Q->E combo you, but honestly, hitting Anivia Q without some sort of lead-off slow/stun (e.g. her W/R) really shouldn't happen if you have boots. Post-6 she can afk-push, but will run out of mana quickly, particularly if you were able to keep her off her Catalyst. If she gets a blue buff, you need to get one yourself, and then you can pretty much just stalemate it by using Q/W for last-hits under tower. | ||
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Lorken
New Zealand804 Posts
I go: Tears > Sorc shoes > Glacial > Catalyst > Frozen Heart > BV > RoA > Archangles > Deathcap Also, what's the optimal combo? EDIT: From the math above it seems RoA is better before BV | ||
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Hyren
United States817 Posts
I used to get get RoA with my first Catalyst but it seems to be falling out of favor if you watch pro's playing Ryze. Edit: Maybe WotA before FH? Edit #2: two weeks later I notice I put Abyssal Scepter instead of Void Staff TT | ||
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
On November 16 2011 08:14 Lorken wrote: Since Neo started the discussion on the new masteries, and he put up the ones he would use for Ryze, it prompted me to try him again and he's pretty good. Would you recommend any changes to my items? I go: Tears > Sorc shoes > Glacial > Catalyst > Frozen Heart > BV > RoA > Archangles > Deathcap Also, what's the optimal combo? EDIT: From the math above it seems RoA is better before BV i generally like a tanky ryze and like to take advantage of his spellvamp on his ulti so i go tears>boots>cata>either merc treads or glacial>the other item you didn't get > hextech revolver > now bv or frozen heart> the other one>wota>void staff > AA You honestly can get these items in whatever order but that's a general order so... final AA,Merctreads, WOTA, void staff,BV,frozen heart now you are super strong tanky ryze! | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
I usually go Sapphire -> Catalyst/Tear (depends if I can get away with being squishy as fuck for an extra 10 minutes) -> Boots -> Tear/Catalyst (whichever you didn't get) -> Glacial Shroud -> Banshee's -> Rod of Ages (the mana and HP on this item simply can't be ignored) -> Frozen Heart -> Void Staff -> Archangel's Staff I prefer Sorcerer's Shoes, if you get hit by much CC as Ryze you are fucked anyways, I feel you have to rely on your Veil and good positioning. I could see selling the Shoes after you have Void in favor of Merc Treads, I guess. I kind of like selling for Swifties in real long games. | ||
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