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On December 21 2010 00:32 Slayer91 wrote:
alright mpen it is
I usually only go void staff if they have high mresist though. Not sure if that's smart, base resist is like 50 or sov around the time you can get it, still like 20 mpen.
So i'll probably build annie for my main when i hit 30 and go ranked until i can get good at playing jax since he's hard and requires expensive runes to properly jungle. maybe ill play more with mordekaiser or get a new hero but i doubt it runes are expensive and i only go 13 levels of IP before i can start going ranked.
Mastery build 9/0/21 seems non negotiable, ill build up to lvl 30 asap.
Runes:
Red: Mpen
Yellow: HP
Blue: CD reduction//Mp5//AP/lvl
The reason for hp is that an extra 50 is very nice, especially if you want to go fast catalyst or something. (I'd say sapphire first sounds good if you have a good lane partner, otherwise i find the mp5 hp and ap all very necessary to get any sort of harass in)
I'd originally want to go for AP/lvl since you don't want the AP that much before around lvl 5 where it equalizes with pure AP, but CDR might be good if you guys stress that AP is bad? mp5 is more like a footnote but i often find i buy mana pots to allow me to dominate lanes, should I just take a blue buff, and get mp5 runes?
flash tibbers is obviously good but i try to avoid using flash because everybody keeps talking about the eventual removal into an item or something, i dunno its probably stupid, but i figure relying on it for offensive combos is the kind of thing you shouldn't do too often when you can learn to use your movement speed when you're on CD.
Anybody have a spreadsheet for mpen vs AP and %mpen and how it factors in? I don't want you g uys to make it but they're usually floating around.
Quints: AP or HP i guess.
APen is *vastly* better than AP...if it's used. If you have more pen than your opponent has resist, it's (partially) wasted.
If an opponent has merc treads, they have ~60MR (including base). You can get rid of all of it with sorc boots/guise/abyssal, or most of it with sorc boots/guise/runes/masteries. If they buy a veil, FoN, or hexdrinker, you may want to respond by trading guise + sorc for void staff + treads.
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9871 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:32 Slayer91 wrote:
Thanks guys. I'll get whichever T3 runes are cheaper between CDR and MPen, the Oddone guide is very mathematically sound.
Just get mr lol
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Any help on item options for annie? I feel kind of bottled into the same old item routine right now. I don't know how to change based on their team comp.
1: Dorans ring OR shield. (Shield vs strong harassers especially physical, ring vs tanky chars where I need the mana/AP)
2: 20 mpen boots (unless they have sick CC i get treads)
3: Rod of Ages
4: Archangel staff (unless my team has like no tanky chars, I can delay this)
5: Abyssal Sceptre/Banshes veil (sceptre for more damage, veil for surviability)
6; Whichever of 5 I didn't get.
7: Zhonya's, sell ring/shield.
Ideas:
Rylai's? Seems ok but not amazing.
Haunting Guise? Seems awfully cost inefficient for all of its stats.
DFG?
Anyone else feel +armour tanky items aren't really worth it? Like even most physical dps'ers have very large amounts of magic damage and since you don't get autoattacked much as annie you worry mo re about the bursty magic bits. I almost never feel justified after getting a thornmail because I find out katarina does magic or irelia can activate true damage or whatever.
As a tank I guess its worth it since you can soak auto hits but really as annie and most chars it seems magic resist is always the better stat.
Should I be mixing in Rylai's
I feel like archangels is debateable but I find the mana really helpful although perhaps the tears of the godess thing doesn't charge up nearly fast enough.
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United States47024 Posts
AA Staff is meh on Annie because her mana consumption isn't that ridiculous. Kass and Anivia can still blow through their mana even if they have blue, but blue basically covers Annie's mana needs entirely. And if you're not dying for the mana, Zhonya's Ring is just a better way to pick up the AP.
Rylais is meh because a lot of the time the slow is just going to be overlapping your stuns.
Because of Annie's middle-of-the-road AP ratios and high base damage output, MPen is the best stat if you can make use of it. In light of TheOddOne's guide, your build should vary based on how much MRes you're seeing. Skip to your big AP stuff only if you don't see ANY MR, some combination of Sorcs/Guise/Abyssal (Guise is really efficient against low MR values because of how large a % damage increase it is) if they have up to 80 MR, and past that just screw flat pen and get a Void Staff.
I haven't really gotten to play much with DFG, since people always insta-lock solo lane champs, so I can't really comment on its comparative usefulness relative to the other midgame options.
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On December 31 2010 03:46 TheYango wrote:
Because of Annie's middle-of-the-road AP ratios and high base damage output, MPen is the best stat if you can make use of it. In light of TheOddOne's guide, your build should vary based on how much MRes you're seeing. Skip to your big AP stuff only if you don't see any MR, some combination of Sorcs/Guise/Abyssal (Guise is really efficient against low MR values because of how large a % damage increase it is) if they have up to 80 MR, and past that just screw flat pen and get a Void Staff.
the second half of this paragraph is smarter than the first.
MPen is much stronger, the LESS Mres your opponents have. if you see 3 enemies with low MR values, then by all means grab those sorcs and guise first because you're going to have a huge early-game advantage. if you're playing against 5 champs who all spec'd defensive and opened mercs and banshee's, you're much better off buying your big AP items/survivability items and getting your void staff (which brings you to 49% pen with the MPen mastery)
also the build i used to carry myself out of the 700 elo level that worked pretty effectively up til 1300 was d-shield into double RoA, void staff, then aegis then zhonya. earlygame i'd buy sorcs and sell them for mercs latergame. double RoA + aegis plus your W gives you like 3500 HP and 180armor/140MRes, so you're impossible to kill, but void staff + MPen mastery makes you an offensive threat beyond your stuns. i don't like this build any more because it's hard to get that much farm, but at low levels where overextending is the name of the game, this build is very obtainable with as few as 3 kills earlygame and extreme concentration on farming earlygame.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 31 2010 03:56 gtrsrs wrote:
MPen is much stronger, the LESS Mres your opponents have. if you see 3 enemies with low MR values, then by all means grab those sorcs and guise first because you're going to have a huge early-game advantage. if you're playing against 5 champs who all spec'd defensive and opened mercs and banshee's, you're much better off buying your big AP items/survivability items and getting your void staff (which brings you to 49% pen with the MPen mastery)
I sort of worded that poorly but that's what I meant. When I said no MR, I mean they literally got none--e.g. they're sitting at the base 30, and flat pen does you no good because Sorcs + runes = 30 MPen and any extra is doing nothing (it's not a situation relevant against good players, seeing as they will get MR for you, but for someone who needs a guide, players who never buy a single point of MR do show up). And the last part covers everything else. Basically:
30-40 MR (base, base + runes, base + defensive masteries but no items) - Sorcs as your only MPen source, because Guise/Abyssal/Void MPen is wasted when you have 30 MPen and they only have 30 MR.
40-80 MR - Sorcs/Guise/Abyssal; this is the sweet spot for flat pen because the MR is low enough that MPen is a large % damage increase, but its not so low that they hit 0 and make some of your penetration wasted.
80+ MR - Flat pen loses power, and Void Staff gains power, so just get Void Staff and other stuff
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United States2822 Posts
Made a slight edit for the item build post patch. Nothing else really changes.
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Hey guys, I've learned a lot since I was last posting. What are your current build choices on annie?
Right now I'm trying;
Dshield (I <3 autoattacks, so being able to risk taking hits with the hp regen armour and more hp is really helpful, mana crystal +2 makes a lot of sense as well, since it takes like, what 5 minutes of constant regen to overtake 400 hp from 2 hp pots? so you're not hurting that badly, and the mana is nice, especially if you didn't back before 6 so you can actually kill them.
-Catalyst. Can't see is being possible to skip this, going H.G first leaves you with not enough mana to really do anything.
-> RoA or Haunting guise, pick RoA faster if you got some kills or whatever and can get it fast. If you're bot lane or aren't doing well get banshees out of your catalyst instead. Reasoning is that if you're doing worse you're lower level and gold so you're easier to kill, so building survival is more damage anyway. If you're doing well you have more gold to make defensive stuff, are higher level so are naturally tougher and you need the extra mana and AP to carry your team properly, as running out of mana in teamfights which I often do with just banshees (and a lower lvl annie) sucks so bad. Sometimes when you get banshees AND RoA you have way too much mana though, so I'm not totally sold yet, maybe you need to look at their teamcomp first.
-->DFG, since it really boosts your ability to kill 1 target fast, with AP/CDR and the active together, you get your second Q and second W back faster and have a nice active. Not sure if this should be reserered for situations where you aren't farmed though.
Banshee/Zonya hourglass//Death cap//Glacial shroud??. I feel like you need some survival toward the end, so you can get in and get dirty with their squishies. If you've got really solid tanks or melee targets death cap works great as well. I feel like glacial shroud is maybe good if you need that last 15% CDR (which improves DPS by far the most) and armour, and mana helps if they are kinda tanky and you want to be able to kill trucking i.e you're not getting focused and you need to help kill the tanky guys at the end.
Also, running HP quint/Mpen red/Mp5 yellow/mr/lvl blues. Because you always want MR and they were cheap. Thinking about CDR runes though, 6% seems small enough, but if it makes that last difference maybe its worth it?
15% DFG
10% Blue elixir
9% Talents
34%
So CDR runes should bring you exactly to max CDR which is the biggest increase. The only thing is that you need DFG and bluepot, its almost easier just to secure blue buff. Having like 30 more MR at level 18 is pretty good too. I'm not sure. Leaning toward CDR now but they are expensive.
Not the biggest fan of abyssal but maybe if it was arranged team and we were thinking more toward the big picture paying 1k for 20 AoE mpen might be more worthwhile, if you already need magic resist.
Really don't like rylai's btw, just buy a giants belt and go into something else if you need the HP. You can build it into warmogs later or something if they really have spread out damage LOL.
Haunting guise seems to make difference when I really thought it sucked after seeing annie's open it first, which I still think is a bad. It seems really boss with 50 MPEN and even with treads you nuke them down so fast.
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United States47024 Posts
After the nerf, I've stopped using mp5/lvl seals on Annie, and slotted them out for armor seals. Annie really doesn't need the mp5 that much, as you pick up enough regen sources as you go. Running MPen marks/quints, armor seals, and ap/lvl glyphs--I'll replace the ap/lvl glyphs with MPen once I get around to buying them.
Item-wise, I'm finding myself not picking up Guise/Abyssal that often, and just finishing off RoA. Particularly after CDR boots came out, I'm seeing less people getting Mercs and falling in that sweet spot where Guise/Abyssal are worthwhile (usually I end up just seeing Negatron cloaks, for which Void Staff is a better response).
With regard to DFG, I've been a bit hesitant to get it after DCap came out, and I have a hard time justifying it if I'm likely to see continuous blue buffs. I'd still buy it if I'm not guaranteed to see every blue buff on our side of the map.
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Imo:
- Mana crystal (faster catalyst)
- Catalyst (no brainer)
- Sorc boots (cos girls need shoes)
- Soulstealer + haunting guise (if you think you can close the game + have good ward coverage) OR Deathcap (reliable AP source)
- Banshee / Void staff (banshee to give you the edge at the start of fights where an annie stun is really important, void staff to increase damage).
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United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2011 05:38 Juicyfruit wrote:
Imo:
- Mana crystal (faster catalyst)
- Catalyst (no brainer)
- Sorc boots (cos girls need shoes)
- Soulstealer + haunting guise OR Deathcap (increase damage output a little more)
- Banshee / Void staff (banshee to give you the edge at the start of fights where an annie stun is really important, void staff to increase damage).
Rod of Ages is still #1 core item on Annie.
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It's only nice if you are REALLY hurting for a big HP source, and I don't really get too much of that problem.
Catalyst + Sorc + Haunting Guise + Mejai is enough to start closing out the game. Rod of ages is too much money on mana + health. Catalyst + Haunting guise is a lot of health already.
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lol at soulstealer on annie
maybe at 1300 elo
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United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2011 05:44 Juicyfruit wrote:
Catalyst + Sorc + Haunting Guise + Mejai is enough to start closing out the game. Rod of ages is too much money on mana + health. Catalyst + Haunting guise is a lot of health already.
If you already get Catalyst, Catalyst->RoA is strictly a better buy than getting Haunting Guise unless you're getting absolutely full utility out of guise--which rarely happens for me.
EDIT: 1485 for Haunting Guise, 1710 for RoA
RoA gives 160 HP, 200 Mana, 60 AP, and growing bonuses
Haunting Guise gives 180 HP, 20 AP, and 20 MPen
The 20 MPen is basically only useful at that stage of the game if multiple people on the other team have Mercs already, or if a support managed to get Aegis out super-fast, because unless they're using a Null-Magic Mantle-based item, they're not going to be in the MR range where Guise pen actually does anything (Runes + Sorcs gives you about 40 flat pen to begin with, which covers most reasonable combinations of MR runes/masteries). Many squishies eschew Mercs for a later Negatron item (which, by the time they get, the RoA bonuses will have kicked in), so its not inconceivable that Guise would be a worse buy than RoA, even up-front.
Even if you do end up needing Guise, it's totally reasonable to get it after RoA (which is even the preferred item order that TheOddOne suggests in his guide).
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If you aren't planning on winning by midgame, then you start towards deathcap and/or void staff. I just find RoA to really miss the timing on Annie's dominant stage of the game, not to mention banshee's such a good annie item that you never waste that catalyst even if you don't make RoA.
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yeah I switched to flat mana regen seals and might switch them for armour since I can basic attack troll more.
Who gets soulstealer on annie o.O. She is someone who has to go in and deal damage and can't sit back like other soulstealer champs.
That's why I still think RoA is so good, makes you beefy enough to do what you need do and more mana to get more damage out, and some AP in there aswell.
Not too sure about DFG either, but it makes a lot of sense.
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In solo ranked you are probably better off going a rod deathcap void route because games tend to last longer and you need to be more of a lategame threat. I still feel to get the most out of Annie you gotta go a stack flat pen route and give your team amazing midgame initiations with it.
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You only need void staff to kill high MR targets, and unless its SUPER late when most games end in about 30 minutes your targets like ranged carry//ap carry/melee dps//suport aren't going to have more than at most a banshee veil (which you completely penetrate with 50 mpen anyway).
You're never going to be a great tank killer anyway, so normally you don't need void staff.
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I like getting Sorcs/Guise early, and depending on when I go back and how it's going etc. I grab a Mana Crystal or a Catalyst, an extra Amp Tome or a Mejai's. If I have trouble I skip the Guise and aim for an earlier Void Staff. Catalyst usually ends up building into Banshee's because I get lots of focus, but ideally I would build a RoA.
So basically the core is for me: Sorcs, Guise, Cata. Items I like to get after that: Banshee's, RoA, Void Staff, Mejai's. Not a big fan of Deathcap, I like to tank with the rest of my items.
I really like Mejai's on Annie, although I'm used to never ever building snowball items, so I often forget about it. Basically Annie does her QWERGTFO. It's not that useful for your enemies to focus you right after your spells are on cooldown, and ideally most of them are stunned anyways. I don't have much of a problem maintaining a decent amount of stacks that way. And if they keep focusing me, I build more and more tank items so that their focus makes them lose the fight.
Oh and starting without an early Catalyst requires really careful mana management. Especially getting your passive up at the right times without wasting mana is tough. But getting that extra MPen/AP can be REALLY strong.
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Real way to play annie is ERWQ, ghost, run away//around from whoever is on you then go back in for more W and Q while your E is still up.
Flash in or out if necessary of course.
Though I guess if you're going like mpen/mejai's you won't have much mana at all until later on.
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EPT
