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United States2822 Posts
Annie, the Dark Child
![[image loading]](http://www.leagueoflegends.com/sites/default/files/game_data/1.0.0.101/content/champion/portraits/1.jpg)
Hint, the URL is in the picture!
One of the champions that was first released with the game, she still remains one of the most consistent burst nukers in the game, stalwartly refusing to budge from her position at the mid-upper end of high tier. An AoE stun on command that does a ton of damage ensures that, even if you get nothing else off in a team fight, you'll have done something to swing the battle heavily in your team's favor.
Summoner Spells: I take Ghost/Flash, although depending on playstyle and how aggressive you are, you may opt for Ignite over Ghost. Flash is extremely useful for extending your zone of control in lane, and is excellent for preparing for the dreaded level 6 burst that is the bane of many a solo mid. Pretty much non-negotiable.
Masteries: 9/0/21 normal 9/0/21 build. Improved Ghost -> Perseverance if you're taking Ignite over Ghost, naturally.
Runes: Flat HP Quints, Magic Penetration Red, Mana Per 5 Per Level Yellow, AP Per Level Blue. You want to try and take a solo mid or solo top lane, so the HP Quints help a lot for that. Some people swear by Mana Per 5 Per Level Blue as well (see HeavOnEarth's post after mine), so there's flexibility.
Skill Order: QWQWWR - R > W > Q > E Yes, it's true Incinerate does more damage throughout all points in the game than Disintegrate does. However, leveling up Disintegrate early makes last hitting and lane control much easier. Also, at level 6, Flash shenanigans aside, if you don't manage to kill them with the initial burst, you can get another Disintegrate off before they run out of range assuming you Flashed right on top of them. Take a level of E at a level where you think you'll need it for team fights, as it helps build a second stun more quickly after your first one. Level 8 or 10 is a good point.
Item Build: Doran's Shield/Doran's Ring, Haunting Guise, Boots of Speed, Catalyst, Sorc Shoes/Merc Treads (opposing team comp depending), Rod of Ages, Zhonya's Ring, Banshee's Veil, Void Staff if opposing team stacking MRes.
Post Patch: Doran's Shield/Mana Crystal + 2hp pots, Haunting Guise, Boots of Speed, Catalyst, Sorc Shoes/Merc Treads (opposing team comp depending), Rod of Ages, Rabadon's Deathcap, Banshee's Veil/Zhonya's Hourglass (opposing team comp depending), Void Staff if stacking MRes, Zhonya's Hourglass/Banshee's Veil if not. If you're daring (read: brave) stick a Mejai's in there somewhere. After level 2 boots, stick on blue/red elixirs as you feel appropriate. Also, you're a farming beast who's not terribly reliant on items beyond Rod of Ages to do your thing. Ward it up.
Playstyle: As Annie, you want to be in a solo lane without a doubt. HP Quints and the HP from a Doran's Shield/Doran's Ring help a lot.
Annie has a terrible attack animation with a long windup time, but she is blessed with the longest natural attack range out of any champion in the game. Learning how to last hit with your auto attack when either Q is on cooldown or you're pushed out of range of Q for some reason is a skill that separates good Annies from great Annies. It effectively gives you a way to last hit two low HP creeps simultaneously instead of letting one go to waste.
So naturally, you want to be last hitting with Q and your autoattack while keeping wary of any gank attempts. Because your Q does so much damage, you may find yourself pushing the lane farther than you would like, so don't go overboard if you feel it's unsafe. Once you're Energized, feel free to walk around your opponent's minions - only the longest ranged champions will feel safe, and the threat of being stunned by Q for no gain is an excellent zoning tool. This is where learning to last-hit with Annie's attack animation comes in handy.
Should an enemy champion come too close, Q them for a stun, W and then auto attack once. Even at level two, this can possibly be enough damage to force a pot chug immediately. Champions to be aware of early game are Miss Fortune, Pantheon, LeBlanc, Kassadin and Morgana, as they can either outzone you, outburst you, silence you, or shrug off your spells.
So, all things considered, you should be doing pretty well and have hit level 6 with a decent health pool. Put your point into Summon: Tibbers and check out its long range. Mentally calculate how much extra range you can put onto that with Flash, and threaten to keep a stun up. You can juke Flash and Spell Shield if you walk into melee range. Tibbers is instant so it's really hard to Flash out of a Flash/Tibbers unless you broadcast your intention extremely obviously.
Flash in, RQW, Ignite if you have it, auto attack once, walk towards melee range and try to get another Q off and another auto attack. All things working out, this should kill them. If it doesn't, it likely forced them to bluepill. The timings on jungle creeps at this point usually works out to where the Golem buff has respawned. Take Tibbers and take your Golem buff, and then bluepill back and work on your Haunting Guise. I usually take Ruby Crystal and Boots at this point.
During the midgame, your job is to shut down the opposing carry with your burst while it's still powerful. Ideally, every Tibbers you bring down should either kill your opponent or force him to bluepill. Once your lane is clear, you can assist with ganks. Contrary to popular belief, Tibbers is not necessary for side lane ganks as the stun from Pyromania is more than sufficient to set up your allies for kills. You're not greedy for kills.
Late game, you are a walking nuclear bomb, waiting to drop a nice explosion of fiery, stunny goodness on the opposing team after your tank has initiated or after the enemy has overcommitted. Hit as many enemy champions as you can with Tibbers. Afterwards, peel enemy champions off of your carry with stuns and sustained damage, or focus the enemy carry if your carry isn't in danger.
-- EDIT: Thanks to everyone for pointing out mistakes and giving suggestions for the guide. I'm continually updating the guide with suggestions.
-- EDIT: Check out TheOddOne's Annie guide here too :o http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/954437-league-of-legends/faqs/60876
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O hellll no. W> Q
What does flat cdr blues accomplish, at all? You are limited by mana not CDR.
Mp5>> CDR by a mile
You are saving your own carry and trying to hit as many people as you can with your ult.
Dumping on your shit on one person, really?
Don't ever land a Q then don't W . (it's b/c ur not running mp/5 and doran ring). That dmg is huge and ur opting not to harass efficiently.
Doran ring>>> doran shield by far so u can w and have mana for ur ult, and not to mention mana for lategame when you dont have blue.
double mp5 and doran ring + utility spec = enough mana.
Ur HP isnt gonna drop unless you go charging in super aggro.(aka u dont need dorans shield)
Time that shit where they are going to lasthit, where they are out of positon, their abilitiers are on CD , etc etc.
and what yiruru said, wtf e before level 6? hardly get that thing till level 13, maybe if i need a little help doing blue levels 8-12.
Flash ignite mid, ghost flash top. i think is the best. Annie should really always be mid shutting down their carry with ignite flash, though.
Also, You are saving your own carry and trying to hit as many people as you can with your ult.
Dumping on your shit on one person, really? Don't do that.
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Why do you take E? Skipping Ignite and getting Q>W with a extra point in E makes your early gank spikes really ineffective. You also need Haunting Guise, it's been mathematically proven that MPen>AP, and considering Annie's horrendous AP ratios...
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United States37500 Posts
Flash/Ignite. Get E when there's nothing else to take. You can bide your time with Q to build up stun charges, you don't need E for stun Tibbers.
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Lategame you're a walking death machine maybe if the other team is building their champs horribly or you're crazy fed, but I really think annie's strongest midgame when her spells do shittons of damage compared to how much life/mres people have and people are just starting to group up to fight.
Once you get lategame and they can shrug off your q/w/r combos, I'd just go for survivability+cdr to become a walking stunbot. Much more useful to a team than some squishy caster just doing ~800 damage to their 3k hp carry every minute and a half before sona waltzes in and fixes that with two ws.
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United States2822 Posts
On November 04 2010 18:32 Eiii wrote:
Lategame you're a walking death machine maybe if the other team is building their champs horribly or you're crazy fed, but I really think annie's strongest midgame when her spells do shittons of damage compared to how much life/mres people have and people are just starting to group up to fight.
Once you get lategame and they can shrug off your q/w/r combos, I'd just go for survivability+cdr to become a walking stunbot. Much more useful to a team than some squishy caster just doing ~800 damage to their 3k hp carry every minute and a half before sona waltzes in and fixes that with two ws.
I was referring more to the hard to avoid AoE stun rather than your actual damage output.
Thanks for the input everyone.
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Hell yes, Q>W !
Pros of Q>W:
more burst in early game fights (who cares if w deals like 10% more damage if it has 2x cd?)
easier to pump stun cause you dont have problems last hitting with this (ignore this pro at high elo)
easier last hitting (ignore this pro at high elo)
more power while harassing (q range > w range)
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I think 1 point E at level 8/10 is necessary. I understand ridiculing him for E pre-6, but if you go into a teamfight without E, your 2nd AoE stun is another Q CD delayed, which can be really costly. With E, you can do a full R (stun) -> W -> Q -> E -> Q -> W (stun) rotation in the span of a single W CD, which is quite strong.
I also really dislike Q > W. Maximizing your AoE burst with tibbers is way more important in the midgame than increasing your sustained single target damage. In addition, having the ability to 1-shot creep waves can really let you put a lot of pressure on the opposing team's lanes by simply killing an entire wave in lane in 2 seconds and then going MIA.
Also, if you're editing Haunting Guise into your build, you need to understand it's a higher priority than catalyst and RoA. What Yiruru's talking about is how Annie needs to maximize her dominance when solo lanes are sitting at 2.5-3K gold earned, at which point the most efficient way to maximize damage output is d-ring -> sorc shoes -> Haunting Guise, which with your MPen Marks will give ~50 MPen, which most characters have not specced against yet with that little gold.
For Runing and Masteries, 0/9/21 is also viable for bullying lanes around with SoS, but of course is weaker when endgame hits and that marginal regen/defense is preventing you from having like 11-12 AP, 3% CDR, and 15% MPen. I think if you're new to Annie, you should run 0/9/21 over 9/0/21, but ultimately you want to be running 9/0/21 like you're saying. For runes, I much prefer AP/level blues to CDR blues (and extra regen), and I like flat APs on my Quints. HP is more beginner friendly to make laning easier, but even with her average AP ratios, you will notice a big difference in how hard you hit with the flat AP Quints and AP/level blues. I also like playing Annie solo top, in which case Teleport/Flash is pretty much necessary so that you can hold your lane and still be available for early dragon fights.
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United States47024 Posts
I generally level QWQWQR and then R>W>Q>E, with a level of E after I finish W. Q is better during early laning, but you're going to want W once you hit 6 and are going to be ganking. Sure you want Q in the laning phase, but what forces you to max Q first just because you got 3 ranks in it pre-6?
I also agree with Mogwai on getting Haunting Guise earlier if you want to get it at all (though I don't really like it that much). 20 MPen is really strong early, but becomes really irrelevant if you wait too long to get it.
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O_O
HG + VS doesn't result in less MPen than VS itself, LOL.
They make each other pen less than they would on their own, but together they will always be greater than just 1 or the other.
100 MRes
Just HG = 80 MRes
Just VS = 60 MRes
Both = 48 MRes
So you can either see it at VS being 8 MPen less efficient than without HG or HG being 8 MPen less efificient than without VS, but either way, together they are greater than just 1 or the other.
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United States47024 Posts
Wow, yeah total brainfart on my part. Editing that out.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
hi just this is so crazy LOLOL secret LoL forum! wtf.! bye!
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I see you guys are getting E at lvl 8 or lvl 10...
From my personal experience E is actually really good =/... I do much better when I grab a point at lvl 5 or lvl 8.. I get it instead of Q. I always always max W first though... It's actually strong for 1v1 battles or lanes since I use the stun cycle to burst my opponent in lanes... It's also really good for team fights since the more you stun the better.
Also I think E is actually extremely useful late game, but usually when you get a rod of ages or rylais crystal scepte earlier.. since it gives you quite a bit of Armor/Mresist, and the damage it does to someone can actually kill someone in 1v1
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United States2822 Posts
Thanks for the input guys. I guess it was premature for me to make a guide, but I've learned a lot. :D
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On November 05 2010 02:37 BraveGhost wrote:
I see you guys are getting E at lvl 8 or lvl 10...
From my personal experience E is actually really good =/... I do much better when I grab a point at lvl 5 or lvl 8.. I get it instead of Q. I always always max W first though... It's actually strong for 1v1 battles or lanes since I use the stun cycle to burst my opponent in lanes... It's also really good for team fights since the more you stun the better.
Also I think E is actually extremely useful late game, but usually when you get a rod of ages or rylais crystal scepte earlier.. since it gives you quite a bit of Armor/Mresist, and the damage it does to someone can actually kill someone in 1v1
To be completely honest, I have no idea why Annies have ever bought Rylai's 
but anyway, your insta-gib threat at level 6 with a pre-6 point in E actually suffers quite a bit. It's really nice to be able to ding 6, flash, bear drop, incinerate, disintegrate ftw. Again, you need E for teamfighting, but getting it pre-6 is overkill.
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I don't think Doran's Ring is necessarily always much better of an item than Doran's Shield. I like to run Doran's Shield a lot, and with flat armor runes you have 20 more armor early game. Running Doran's Shield with armor allows you to really be safely auto attack harassing a lot in lane early vs most champions. There are many champions though you can absolutely poop on with the mana regen from having a ring allowing you to harass them with both Q and auto attacks though.
That also being said I think while it's not ideal, because Annie is such a strong hero when she has a level advantage over people, she is a very strong dual laner too when you take a Doran's Shield. Gives you a bit of survivability that you need, and your constant auto attack harass is really quite strong with Annie in a dual lane. You can also pretty much always you can guarantee on a kill at level 3 as her if you have a lane partner of any worth.
In terms of summoner spells Flash + Ignite is obviously ideal, it allows you to get a nice burst off on some one early/mid game offensively with the flash in; and later on the Flash is really needed to stay alive most of the time after you drop your burst. I used to run Clarity + Ignite a lot, and I think that works quite well in a dual lane. Allows you to keep your survivability while being able to additionally harass with spells a bit.
I think leveling Q is much better than leveling W. I don't think you can underestimate how needless it is to get last hits with a leveled Q. In an early fight you're also much more likely to be able to get two Q's off than be able to get two W's off.
In terms of item builds Haunting Guise is my favorite item. Always feel like Annie needs a bit of HP to ensure that you don't get pooped on early on, and Mpen is #1.
Oh, and 21 offensive helps you ensure burst kills quite a bit too.
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D-Shield has some merit, but flash is non-negotiable on Annie and ignite is not needed and can be swapped out for exhaust, cleanse, ghost, or teleport.
21 offensive is horrible. After the 15% mpen mastery, Annie gets terrible gains from the offensive tree. Never more than 9 in the offensive tree on casters plz.
And for Q vs. W... you're forgetting that W hits multiple people pretty much all the time. like, say I can have Q hit for 200 and W hit for 100 or Q hit for 100 and W hit for 200... even if I can cast 2 Qs and only 1 W, having the stronger W is equally strong if I can hit 2 people with it and is stronger if I can hit 3 or more people with it, which tends to be easy with bear drops.
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when you flash mid for your first kill, you should NEVER use R as your stun spell. R can not only miss, but has a hitbox that is smaller than it appears. Q will never miss (unless it's vlad!), Q will get the stun, then R directly on top of them, and W as they try to run away. ignite if necessary. another benefit of Q first is that it'll come off of cooldown faster so you can get it in quickly for a last hit on them if they survive the burst
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ok, well let me refute this with 3 reasons why you're completely wrong:
1. if you're good, you know how to hit a tibbers. It's really not that hard.
2. the sooner you get tibbers down, the sooner he does his aura damage and attack damage. delaying it reduces your overall burst.
3. flash exists, and thus instant spells rather than delayed projectile spells are what you should be using to open up. even against 1 target, opening W over Q makes sense simply because of Flash dodging spells.
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On November 05 2010 04:13 gtrsrs wrote:
when you flash mid for your first kill, you should NEVER use R as your stun spell. R can not only miss, but has a hitbox that is smaller than it appears. Q will never miss (unless it's vlad!), Q will get the stun, then R directly on top of them, and W as they try to run away. ignite if necessary. another benefit of Q first is that it'll come off of cooldown faster so you can get it in quickly for a last hit on them if they survive the burst
or if they have flash and good reflexes.
or are sivir with good reflexes
but not good enough to flash/shield before you beardrop them
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On November 05 2010 04:19 Mogwai wrote:
ok, well let me refute this with 3 reasons why you're completely wrong:
1. if you're good, you know how to hit a tibbers. It's really not that hard.
2. the sooner you get tibbers down, the sooner he does his aura damage and attack damage. delaying it reduces your overall burst.
3. flash exists, and thus instant spells rather than delayed projectile spells are what you should be using to open up. even against 1 target, opening W over Q makes sense simply because of Flash dodging spells.
1. even if you're bad, Q will never miss. Tibbers has a X.XX% chance to miss and is therefor an inferior choice because it CAN miss.
2. seeing as you will be hitting QRW in less than one second, this is not true, his aura applies once a second.
3. flash won't exist soon, and a cautious opponent will be on the lookout for you flashing anyways, they can react to your flash no matter what you follow it up with
4. if you burn R or W and miss, your stun will not proc and you'll be left without one of your two damage spells. whereas if Q is dodged, you will still have your stun up and you can stun them afterwards
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United States2822 Posts
On November 05 2010 02:02 alffla wrote:
hi just this is so crazy LOLOL secret LoL forum! wtf.! bye!
wtf alffla are you stalking me?
Also thanks soooooo much for the input everyone. :D
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On November 05 2010 04:49 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 04:19 Mogwai wrote:
ok, well let me refute this with 3 reasons why you're completely wrong:
1. if you're good, you know how to hit a tibbers. It's really not that hard.
2. the sooner you get tibbers down, the sooner he does his aura damage and attack damage. delaying it reduces your overall burst.
3. flash exists, and thus instant spells rather than delayed projectile spells are what you should be using to open up. even against 1 target, opening W over Q makes sense simply because of Flash dodging spells. 1. even if you're bad, Q will never miss. Tibbers has a X.XX% chance to miss and is therefor an inferior choice because it CAN miss. 2. seeing as you will be hitting QRW in less than one second, this is not true, his aura applies once a second. 3. flash won't exist soon, and a cautious opponent will be on the lookout for you flashing anyways, they can react to your flash no matter what you follow it up with 4. if you burn R or W and miss, your stun will not proc and you'll be left without one of your two damage spells. whereas if Q is dodged, you will still have your stun up and you can stun them afterwards
1. You shouldn't try to cover up for being bad by playing towards that. I seriously see no reason why an Annie player should miss a Tibbers. Besides, you could misclick on the Q too and stun a ranged creep, yet you don't wanna try to cover that possibility.
2. what if they escape the aura range in a fraction of a second as long as the difference between your Q cast time and R cast time? It's the same argument as your "having Q off of CD argument" except that tibbers can Towerdive and is already on top of them, rather than needing to catch up over that period of time
3. Pantheon's getting HSS reworked soon too, that doesn't mean I'm not going to tell people to ignore it for the time being. You tell people what's right for the time being and then adjust it when it changes. As for flash dodging W or R, that's beyond human reaction time, they're calling your moves with that or you're really slow. By opening with R, I can play distance games and they're the ones who have to be mindful, lest I just kill them out of nowhere before they even have time to react. With Q, they can react in the realm of human reaction time to the cast animation.
4. Again, don't play around the assumption that you're going to miss. I really don't get how you're missing tibbers.
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2. what if your internet d/c's right as you hit R before you get W off? and what if rammus was powerballing towards you and cut off tibbers before he could towerdive galio and you lost the game bcoz of it?
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well in that case it's clearly Matchmaking's fault.
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On November 05 2010 04:13 gtrsrs wrote:
when you flash mid for your first kill, you should NEVER use R as your stun spell. R can not only miss, but has a hitbox that is smaller than it appears. Q will never miss (unless it's vlad!), Q will get the stun, then R directly on top of them, and W as they try to run away. ignite if necessary. another benefit of Q first is that it'll come off of cooldown faster so you can get it in quickly for a last hit on them if they survive the burst
no u do R first for maximum damage. missing tibbers stun is indicative of a bad annie player
anyone can easy flash out of a q stun, but its nearly impossible to flash away from flash tibbers, you'd have to be a really good annie player to anticipate it. same with poppys charge, you can flash out of it as it goes towards you, but its hard to do unless u can read their mind.
tibbers has a huge hitbox , wtf are you talking about?, and more importantly , bigger range than q, most of your kills will come from people underestimating the flash tibbers RANGE distance by just a little. Good players will be out of Q distance so when u flash theyre just gonna move backwards and u fail and they laughz.
if they're in flash+Q distance, why the fuck would u need flash, just drop a bear on their ass.
stop giving bad advice
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Oh also, a bad habit i learned with annie is being overly aggro on my ranged dps, playing similar to annie.
It's because her spells dont generate creep aggro, and her auto attack range is so huge, so on my ranged dps carries i would take more creep dmg than my actual autoattack/harassing ability did.
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Hahah that's what happened to this poor Trist last night. Highly amusing.
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On November 06 2010 03:37 HeavOnEarth wrote:
Oh also, a bad habit i learned with annie is being overly aggro on my ranged dps, playing similar to annie.
It's because her spells dont generate creep aggro, and her auto attack range is so huge, so on my ranged dps carries i would take more creep dmg than my actual autoattack/harassing ability did.
hahaha, yea, her zoning is like Pantheon's, so it was a really smooth transition for me :p. Thank god you finally came in here and backed me up, I was ready to give up arguing about using tibbers first.
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i dunno maybe there's something wrong with my client or something because i have literally missed tibbers's even if they were just barely outside of the dead center of the aiming reticle. for me it's ridiculous enough that i won't even attempt tibbers unless the target is already stunned (by me or ganking partner). maybe it's psychological \o/
on the other hand, in probably 70 games played as annie total, i have only twice seen someone dodge a flash-Q, one was a vlad who pooled the exact second i flashed, so i had nothing to Q (seeing as it was literally the exact same time, i can only assume this was a coincidence not godlike timing) and an ashe who was kicking the shit out of me and clearly a better player than me anyways, and i probably just telegraphed my move enough that she had her finger on the D key ready to flash out
so ~97% of the time i will land the stun and have a non-moving target to hit tibbers/firecone on, 1.5% of the time a player better than me will predict my move and dodge it, and 1.5% of the time the other player will fluke out and get lucky. i'll take those chances on a skill that *can't* miss due to user error
stop assuming everyone plays at the 2100 elo level and that everyone you lane against is grandjudge, there are players that read these guides and threads at the 1200 level too
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On November 06 2010 05:19 gtrsrs wrote:
i dunno maybe there's something wrong with my client or something because i have literally missed tibbers's even if they were just barely outside of the dead center of the aiming reticle. for me it's ridiculous enough that i won't even attempt tibbers unless the target is already stunned (by me or ganking partner). maybe it's psychological \o/
on the other hand, in probably 70 games played as annie total, i have only twice seen someone dodge a flash-Q, one was a vlad who pooled the exact second i flashed, so i had nothing to Q (seeing as it was literally the exact same time, i can only assume this was a coincidence not godlike timing) and an ashe who was kicking the shit out of me and clearly a better player than me anyways, and i probably just telegraphed my move enough that she had her finger on the D key ready to flash out
so ~97% of the time i will land the stun and have a non-moving target to hit tibbers/firecone on, 1.5% of the time a player better than me will predict my move and dodge it, and 1.5% of the time the other player will fluke out and get lucky. i'll take those chances on a skill that *can't* miss due to user error
stop assuming everyone plays at the 2100 elo level and that everyone you lane against is grandjudge, there are players that read these guides and threads at the 1200 level too
I'm not worried about grandjudge pulling that shit as much as I'm worried about Regi/DD pulling that shit. I swear those guys have negative reation time, it's ridiculous. Anyway, the reason your post drew a strong response is the wording.
On November 05 2010 04:13 gtrsrs wrote:
when you flash mid for your first kill, you should NEVER use R as your stun spell. R can not only miss, but has a hitbox that is smaller than it appears. Q will never miss (unless it's vlad!), Q will get the stun, then R directly on top of them, and W as they try to run away. ignite if necessary. another benefit of Q first is that it'll come off of cooldown faster so you can get it in quickly for a last hit on them if they survive the burst
I bolded the particularly offensive part. Here's how you could've given the same advice without just being wrong:
when looking for 1v1 kills, don't feel pressured to use R as your stun spell. good players still stun with R in these situations, but if you're uncomfortable with you ability to do so, you can just open with a Q stun until you feel comfortable with the spacing on flash -> tibbers.
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lol, but that's so demeaning to anyone who uses Q to stun, which is equally ridiculous and wrong. it's like if i told my retarded sister that she wasn't retarded, she was just mentally challenged. oh wait now i see your point mogwai
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look, this is a competitive gaming site, we strive to give people advice on how to be competitive.
by ENCOURAGING mediocre play based on the fact that it's good enough for average level play, you're doing a disservice to anyone who's listening to you by setting the bar too low. if someone is seriously picking annie up and wants to be the very best, they're just not gonna get there if they're being encouraged to make plays designed to compensate for being mediocre.
It's like advising someone to NEVER try to get a perfect split in SC because you might screw up. It's ok to tell them that in the grand scheme of things, it's a pretty marginal difference between a perfect split and a 2/2 split, but you should still acknowledge that the advice your giving is sub-optimal, and you ESPECIALLY shouldn't tell people to never do the right thing, LOL.
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tibbers is the best open , prettty sure no argument there.
with everything gtrsrs says just proves that:
Bad players teach you bad habits, that's all there is to it.
I used to open mejais on annie everygame, and swear by it. Used to gank bottom through dragon path and thought it was the easiest thing ever(97% rate ez, good play obvi).
Shit stopped working when i got higher, as do many bad habits you learn from playing bad people
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"right" is really subjective here, especially on a game that's been out for like a year and is constantly changing. maybe in 10 years after LoL has become a benchmark for balance and has a blooming professional scene with several sponsored teams, we will know for a fact that flash-R is irrefutably the best way to stun someone, but for now i'm comfortable telling people that flash-Q is just as effective, easier, and will work up to the 1400 level AT LEAST, where probably only 20% of the people who read this thread will even work
so, readers, take that with a grain of salt
(also note that brave annie players will always use Q)
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United States47024 Posts
For what it's worth, I'm a level 28 baddie, and in all the times I've played Annie, I can only remember ever whiffing Tibbers like 2-3 times. I've been Q-stun dodged WAY more times than I've screwed up Tibbers, and my opponents and I are all terrible.
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On November 06 2010 05:45 HeavOnEarth wrote:
Brave players teach you brave habits, that's all there is to it.
couldn't have said it better myself, friend!
how about this, i will compromise my stance:
a solo mid generally picks 2 of the following summoner spells - ghost, flash, ignite, exhaust, teleport. so check your opponents summoner spells before you attempt to kill them (which you should do anwyays... as ganking a mid who has flash is tough regardless of who you are). if they have flash (40% of the time?), and they have not burned it already, R might be a better option for you. if they don't have flash OR when flash is removed from the game (in the next patch? in the next year? i'm p sure riot has been saying they were going to remove/rework flash for the last few months), Q will never miss, and then you can thank me for getting you started in the right track of opening with a spell that will always hit, rather than one you can whiff
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 06 2010 05:48 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 05:45 HeavOnEarth wrote:
Brave players teach you brave habits, that's all there is to it. couldn't have said it better myself, friend!
brave players level their molten shield and go DPS Annie. You should probably reevaluate your bravery if you think that Q stunning is brave.
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i'm 1-0 with triforce+BR annie \o/
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if they dont have flash how is tibbers gonna miss?
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last time i checked, tibbers was a skill shot, not an auto-target spell. however small, there is still a chance you will miss a skill shot, just like Dirk Nowitski only makes ~93% of his freethrows, despite the distance never changing, the hoop never moving, and having one of the sweetest strokes in the NBA. on the other hand, every single time dirk nowitski drops a basketball, it will hit the floor
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if enemy doesnt have flash im hitting ult 100%.
im done with this silly discussion - you already admitted flash q was bad. So i dont honestly care.
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thank god, my palms were sweaty in anticipation of how you would insinuate that i was a bad player next! 
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United States47024 Posts
On November 06 2010 05:58 gtrsrs wrote:
last time i checked, tibbers was a skill shot, not an auto-target spell. however small, there is still a chance you will miss a skill shot, just like Dirk Nowitski only makes ~93% of his freethrows, despite the distance never changing, the hoop never moving, and having one of the sweetest strokes in the NBA. on the other hand, every single time dirk nowitski drops a basketball, it will hit the floor
Calling an instant, targeted AoE a skillshot is really stretching the term.
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boots + 3 pots gogogogogo
lose to anivia and noone else
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You don't have to be a 2100 ELO player to realize that Annie's tibbers is the better opener. But i guess i'm a little late to that discussion. :\
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So, upon trying out Annie in a practice game, I noticed I was NOT getting Mejai's stacks for a Tibbers kill.
Is this a bug?
Or is this true for all pets, ie Morde?
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Alright, I'll run corrections on the guide:
Masteries: Greed > 1 point in pers. Not better than 3, but for 1 point it gives you more returns if you are running Ignite. Ignite is great if your enemy team has a Mundo/Taric/Sona/Soraka or any other hero that relies on healing in teamfights, but otherwise Ghost is usually the better option.
Runes: Blues should be AP. Annie doesn't really need MP5 as you're either blowing your load all at once or last hitting with Q, and you should have time to naturally regen mana with Doran's Ring between bursts early. You shouldn't be too aggressive until lvl 3 or so anyway.
Skill order: W > Q. I'm sorry, there's no argument here. If you're any good at last hitting, you can do it with a lvl 1 Q all game (not that you should). QWWQWRWEWQRQQEEREE should be the skill order. You need the extra damage on W for your lvl 6 burst and to remain viable in the midgame. Q should only be used to last hit minions to charge up, land a long range stun while R is down (or you don't have mana for a full burst), and as a part of your burst combo (Best is R/Q/W/Q).
Item build: Ring always, never shield, never EVER shield. Not even if you're soloing against a ranged dps, you will be fine with the ring. Boots should almost always be Mercs or Tabi depending on if they have a Yi/Trynd/other ridiculous melee burst, or if they have lots of disables/AP, Annie needs as much survivability as possible so Sorcs are ill-advised unless you have a very good CC team that can peel off you in teamfights (Read: Amumu/Galio/Rammus/etc). Catalyst should be next into a RoA or Banshees depending on the game flow (some of my best games I've gotten no other AP items until lvl 16). Haunting guise is only advisable if you have an AP heavy team and they stack MR early or have a MR tank like Galio. Otherwise Catalyst -> RoA/Banshees -> Zhonya's is almost always the best. Mejais can be awesome, but odds are people at higher ELOs know and fear Annie's burst so you're less likely to get tons and tons of easy kills.
Playstyle: Some things to include:
Ask your jungler to give you the 2nd Blue buff. By that point he should have razors and not really need the mana to jungle (some exceptions, but mostly true). With that, you can utterly dominate your lane early.
You're absurdly frail early game, so be especially careful about jungler ganks, especially when you're a solo lane.
Never, ever lane against MF. I can never win that lane, between having to dodge Double Up and her poking with Rain + 2-3 auto attacks, you won't be able to burst her down with the early dblade and she can poke you forever and a day. Just get a switch if you see her.
Your best contribution to a teamfight late game will be your stun. With ultra tankish item builds coming out of higher ELO players, the amount of Health/MR will be too high for you to burst down anyone or even do a huge amount of damage in teamfights. Tibberstun just after a Galio/Amumu ult can nullify it and put your team back on even footing, or set up an excellent gank, especially from bushes.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 09 2010 08:35 deth2munkies wrote:
Masteries: Greed > 1 point in pers. Not better than 3, but for 1 point it gives you more returns if you are running Ignite. Ignite is great if your enemy team has a Mundo/Taric/Sona/Soraka or any other hero that relies on healing in teamfights, but otherwise Ghost is usually the better option.
They're not interchangeable, because if you're not running Ghost, you have to take 1 point in Perseverance to finish tier 1 utility masteries.
On November 09 2010 08:35 deth2munkies wrote:
Skill order: W > Q. I'm sorry, there's no argument here. If you're any good at last hitting, you can do it with a lvl 1 Q all game (not that you should). QWWQWRWEWQRQQEEREE should be the skill order. You need the extra damage on W for your lvl 6 burst and to remain viable in the midgame. Q should only be used to last hit minions to charge up, land a long range stun while R is down (or you don't have mana for a full burst), and as a part of your burst combo (Best is R/Q/W/Q).
Personally, I think this is a playstyle thing. I use Q a lot in lane pre-6 to poke, even when my stun isn't up (seeing as you're not exactly going to spend your mana amazingly quickly), so I level Q till I'm 6, and the possibility of leaving the lane for a gank/jungle fight becomes more likely. QWQWQRWWWERQQEEREE. At level 8, it becomes equivalent to having leveled W over Q, with a slightly smaller burst at 6-7, but with stronger harassment in lane (which might land you kills/just as much of an advantage anyway, because they'll get lower from your harassment). IMO it's a reasonable tradeoff, but I'll admit I could be wrong.
On November 09 2010 08:35 deth2munkies wrote:
Item build: Ring always, never shield, never EVER shield.
I'm curious behind the reasoning behind never going shield. It seems that Annie doesn't benefit enough from the Ring mp5 during laning for it to be a huge factor.
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MF? stand off the the side and use auto to harass. abuse her goddam auto attack range.
you literally cannot lose a lane to anything other than anivia. get pots. get pots. get pots. pots win you the lane early on. doran's ring does shit for that. doran's anything is for people who want to farm or just survive. not for annie. annie doesn't lose in a burst fight. why the hell would you try to buff a part of her that already never loses.
if you aren't playing near-suicidally aggressive as annie, then you aren't playing her right. buying shit that lets you lane well past lvl 6 is stupid. -mr is king of early game nuking, so there is no reason to skip it. same reason Q > W. W is great for teamfights. Q is much better early lane and for ganks. you can fire off 2 Q during a gank, meaning you can actually kill that garen or whoever with 800+ hp. also, Q can poke people who hug thier tower. W cannot.
absurdly frail. lol. who are you going to lose to in a fight? why are you being careful of jungle ganks? why are you even in lane at that point?
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On November 09 2010 09:31 Kaneh wrote:
MF? stand off the the side and use auto to harass. abuse her goddam auto attack range.
you literally cannot lose a lane to anything other than anivia. get pots. get pots. get pots. pots win you the lane early on. doran's ring does shit for that. doran's anything is for people who want to farm or just survive. not for annie. annie doesn't lose in a burst fight. why the hell would you try to buff a part of her that already never loses.
if you aren't playing near-suicidally aggressive as annie, then you aren't playing her right. buying shit that lets you lane well past lvl 6 is stupid. -mr is king of early game nuking, so there is no reason to skip it. same reason Q > W. W is great for teamfights. Q is much better early lane and for ganks. you can fire off 2 Q during a gank, meaning you can actually kill that garen or whoever with 800+ hp. also, Q can poke people who hug thier tower. W cannot.
absurdly frail. lol. who are you going to lose to in a fight? why are you being careful of jungle ganks? why are you even in lane at that point?
OMG I'M IN A LANE AT LVL 4 I'M SO BAD.
1) MF will simply respond to auto attacks with a rain + auto attacks. You can't move towards her without being stuck in the slow, so you can only hit Q, and you can't run without eating hits that hurt a lot more than your autos. If you don't have stun up even for a second she'll rape you, so you're forced to hold your Q last hit, so you CAN'T auto attack harass without giving up last hits thanks to your abysmally shitty animation.
Just don't go there.
2) You've obviously never played her above 1400. Carries usually have MR runes, buy Mercs, and occasionally another Mres items, and a good amount of tanks will rush Negatrons against a team with an Annie. You are not the king (or queen) of burst at any time other than at lvl 6-11. You also don't have the burst to finish off people without ignite until level 5 or so, which gives you a damn limited window. An Annie who stays alive, puts out damage, and stuns at the right time is what you want, not someone who runs up, blows their load to get 1 guy down to 1% health then dies.
3) -Mres is nice, but catalyst is not for laning, but looking towards the lategame. If you're getting insanely farmed, knock yourself out, but if they're any kind of competent, you're not. If you're 4-0 on your first b, then get mejais/guise/zhonya's/void and go around 3 shotting people. Odds are you won't, and you'll want a more defensive item build. All in all, though, Haunting Guise is not a bad choice, I'd just say Catalyst is better.
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annie can beat MF and vice versa. lot of room for skill , MF's double ups are pretty easy to dodge now and since you're being aggressive and in her face with annie only thing MF can do is use the double up directly on you.
her strut allows her to dodge ur q stun whenever u go for it, except u can simply autoattack to knock her passive off because of your huge range on autoattacks.
when you q stun +w u can simply back off. theres nothing she can do about it
also its easy to autoattack harass and last hit, unless you're new to annie, in which case i'd work on getting that down.
-sorc boots are awesome +blues are mp5 not ap/lvl
Annie has like .6 ap ratios on q + w, not that spectacular, hence why ap/lvl is nonideal and mpen on sorc boots is best
i don't like catalyst on annie but i guess it isn't horrible, if you really need that laning presence then go for it, but i view them as a crutch for beginner annie players( i used catalyst a lot when i started playing)
Also with the Q>W thing, most people take flash, so you won't be able to get another Q off.
Its rare to be able to Q harass in pre- initiated teamfights without being chain stunned and simply picked off before u can cast ur ult
W also one shots caster minions and rank 5 + a little ap.
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I'm kinda new to this game ( lvl 23), but I've been playing Annie quite a lot, i i found that when soloing a lane, i just cannot beat karthus.
Without boots, it's nearly impossible to dodge the bombs, so whenever i try to be agressive, i'll take more dmg than i will damage him as he can spam them so fast. If i try to just defend, then i cannot prevent him from farming :s. Not to mention the threat of his ulti as soon as he hit lvl6 :/
He isnt listed as one of the 'dangerous' early game heroes in the OP, so i guess i'm missing something ( maybe just skill :p ). Any tips when laning against him ? I usually open Doran's Ring for the HPs and increased Regen ( I still lack some runes) and follow up with HG or Catalyst depending on how i am doing.
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lol did someone say tibbers was a skill shot
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On November 09 2010 20:16 Tyrran wrote:
Without boots, it's nearly impossible to dodge the bombs
Problem solved, open boots + 3 pots.
[edit] Actually... thinking about it in a larger context the mp5 might be more important even if you are good at last hitting with q. [/edit]
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On November 09 2010 20:16 Tyrran wrote:
I'm kinda new to this game ( lvl 23), but I've been playing Annie quite a lot, i i found that when soloing a lane, i just cannot beat karthus.
Without boots, it's nearly impossible to dodge the bombs, so whenever i try to be agressive, i'll take more dmg than i will damage him as he can spam them so fast. If i try to just defend, then i cannot prevent him from farming :s. Not to mention the threat of his ulti as soon as he hit lvl6 :/
He isnt listed as one of the 'dangerous' early game heroes in the OP, so i guess i'm missing something ( maybe just skill :p ). Any tips when laning against him ? I usually open Doran's Ring for the HPs and increased Regen ( I still lack some runes) and follow up with HG or Catalyst depending on how i am doing.
it is possible to dodge karthus skillshots without boots on annie. try harder
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On November 09 2010 11:34 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 09:31 Kaneh wrote:
MF? stand off the the side and use auto to harass. abuse her goddam auto attack range.
you literally cannot lose a lane to anything other than anivia. get pots. get pots. get pots. pots win you the lane early on. doran's ring does shit for that. doran's anything is for people who want to farm or just survive. not for annie. annie doesn't lose in a burst fight. why the hell would you try to buff a part of her that already never loses.
if you aren't playing near-suicidally aggressive as annie, then you aren't playing her right. buying shit that lets you lane well past lvl 6 is stupid. -mr is king of early game nuking, so there is no reason to skip it. same reason Q > W. W is great for teamfights. Q is much better early lane and for ganks. you can fire off 2 Q during a gank, meaning you can actually kill that garen or whoever with 800+ hp. also, Q can poke people who hug thier tower. W cannot.
absurdly frail. lol. who are you going to lose to in a fight? why are you being careful of jungle ganks? why are you even in lane at that point? OMG I'M IN A LANE AT LVL 4 I'M SO BAD. 1) MF will simply respond to auto attacks with a rain + auto attacks. You can't move towards her without being stuck in the slow, so you can only hit Q, and you can't run without eating hits that hurt a lot more than your autos. If you don't have stun up even for a second she'll rape you, so you're forced to hold your Q last hit, so you CAN'T auto attack harass without giving up last hits thanks to your abysmally shitty animation. Just don't go there. 2) You've obviously never played her above 1400. Carries usually have MR runes, buy Mercs, and occasionally another Mres items, and a good amount of tanks will rush Negatrons against a team with an Annie. You are not the king (or queen) of burst at any time other than at lvl 6-11. You also don't have the burst to finish off people without ignite until level 5 or so, which gives you a damn limited window. An Annie who stays alive, puts out damage, and stuns at the right time is what you want, not someone who runs up, blows their load to get 1 guy down to 1% health then dies. 3) -Mres is nice, but catalyst is not for laning, but looking towards the lategame. If you're getting insanely farmed, knock yourself out, but if they're any kind of competent, you're not. If you're 4-0 on your first b, then get mejais/guise/zhonya's/void and go around 3 shotting people. Odds are you won't, and you'll want a more defensive item build. All in all, though, Haunting Guise is not a bad choice, I'd just say Catalyst is better.
MF can't respond. she has less range. much less. i dont' think you know how to abuse annie's auto range. MF can't trade a double up for a Q+W (stun). if you actually buy pots like a good annie, she ends up even further behind.
Annie's auto animation can be canceled about halfway through. try it sometime.
Annie doesn't have the burst to kill someone from 100%-0, no. annie however can kill people from ~400 at lvl 3 if you get 2 Q off. THAT is her power. You are suggesting that all she does is stun and output mediocre damage. I am trying to show you that annie's Q is a rediculously short CD strong nuke, that when combined with her rediculous range on auto, makes her a crazy powerhouse in lane and for most of the early and mid game.
3) You're suggesting that you should build a nuker for the end game. I think most people already know that nukers get progressively worse the longer the game goes. why would you build like that. (hence why i like ignite/flash as well) If you know how to dive towers to get kills and flash out to not die, then you will get kills, or get towers. Both will put you ahead. Catalyst does what for you? make you slightly less worse end game? why not straight zhonya? it's better survivability and actually makes you more threatening for the early-mid game.
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On November 11 2010 09:36 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 11:34 deth2munkies wrote:On November 09 2010 09:31 Kaneh wrote:
MF? stand off the the side and use auto to harass. abuse her goddam auto attack range.
you literally cannot lose a lane to anything other than anivia. get pots. get pots. get pots. pots win you the lane early on. doran's ring does shit for that. doran's anything is for people who want to farm or just survive. not for annie. annie doesn't lose in a burst fight. why the hell would you try to buff a part of her that already never loses.
if you aren't playing near-suicidally aggressive as annie, then you aren't playing her right. buying shit that lets you lane well past lvl 6 is stupid. -mr is king of early game nuking, so there is no reason to skip it. same reason Q > W. W is great for teamfights. Q is much better early lane and for ganks. you can fire off 2 Q during a gank, meaning you can actually kill that garen or whoever with 800+ hp. also, Q can poke people who hug thier tower. W cannot.
absurdly frail. lol. who are you going to lose to in a fight? why are you being careful of jungle ganks? why are you even in lane at that point? OMG I'M IN A LANE AT LVL 4 I'M SO BAD. 1) MF will simply respond to auto attacks with a rain + auto attacks. You can't move towards her without being stuck in the slow, so you can only hit Q, and you can't run without eating hits that hurt a lot more than your autos. If you don't have stun up even for a second she'll rape you, so you're forced to hold your Q last hit, so you CAN'T auto attack harass without giving up last hits thanks to your abysmally shitty animation. Just don't go there. 2) You've obviously never played her above 1400. Carries usually have MR runes, buy Mercs, and occasionally another Mres items, and a good amount of tanks will rush Negatrons against a team with an Annie. You are not the king (or queen) of burst at any time other than at lvl 6-11. You also don't have the burst to finish off people without ignite until level 5 or so, which gives you a damn limited window. An Annie who stays alive, puts out damage, and stuns at the right time is what you want, not someone who runs up, blows their load to get 1 guy down to 1% health then dies. 3) -Mres is nice, but catalyst is not for laning, but looking towards the lategame. If you're getting insanely farmed, knock yourself out, but if they're any kind of competent, you're not. If you're 4-0 on your first b, then get mejais/guise/zhonya's/void and go around 3 shotting people. Odds are you won't, and you'll want a more defensive item build. All in all, though, Haunting Guise is not a bad choice, I'd just say Catalyst is better. MF can't respond. she has less range. much less. i dont' think you know how to abuse annie's auto range. MF can't trade a double up for a Q+W (stun). if you actually buy pots like a good annie, she ends up even further behind. Annie's auto animation can be canceled about halfway through. try it sometime. Annie doesn't have the burst to kill someone from 100%-0, no. annie however can kill people from ~400 at lvl 3 if you get 2 Q off. THAT is her power. You are suggesting that all she does is stun and output mediocre damage. I am trying to show you that annie's Q is a rediculously short CD strong nuke, that when combined with her rediculous range on auto, makes her a crazy powerhouse in lane and for most of the early and mid game. 3) You're suggesting that you should build a nuker for the end game. I think most people already know that nukers get progressively worse the longer the game goes. why would you build like that. (hence why i like ignite/flash as well) If you know how to dive towers to get kills and flash out to not die, then you will get kills, or get towers. Both will put you ahead. Catalyst does what for you? make you slightly less worse end game? why not straight zhonya? it's better survivability and actually makes you more threatening for the early-mid game.
1) She does 2-3x as much damage as your auto attack. Double up prevents you from positioning ideally, and with Make it Rain, she can slow you and trade rain + 3 auto attacks for a Q and an autoattack, which is more than fair considering she has lifesteal. She does this at level 1, and can keep you either zoned or force you to bluepill before you can get enough burst to make her pay for it.
2) I guess I can see the point of QWQ, but you should still max W first, especially when you start ganking and especially for the duo lane.
3) No, I'm building her to not die in half a second in the endgame. Zhonya's is great, if you're getting a huge income stream from riding the early burst (which usually happens but not always) you can fit it in after catalyst. Else, you can't really fit it in anywhere because grinding to 1600 for the NLR will take too long and you'll end up gimped. Her income stream slows way, way down around the late-midgame, and if you don't have the NLR by then, you can't afford it. If you're raping, grab mejai's and Zhonya's, if not, go the defensive item build and be a stunbot, because that's where you'll truly shine.
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United States47024 Posts
So I'm curious what situation you'd actually want to start DRing on Annie? It just feels so midrangy on her, considering that if you don't miss Qs for last-hitting, you never have mana problems in lane, and the AP just seems so mediocre. If you need the laning help, DShield just seems to do more for you, and if you don't Sapph Crystal speeding up your midgame items seems better.
On top of which, I have never seen Salce/TheOddOne/any other notable Annie player start DRing on Annie. It's always DShield.
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On December 20 2010 07:19 TheYango wrote:
So I'm curious what situation you'd actually want to start DRing on Annie? It just feels so midrangy on her, considering that if you don't miss Qs for last-hitting, you never have mana problems in lane, and the AP just seems so mediocre. If you need the laning help, DShield just seems to do more for you, and if you don't Sapph Crystal speeding up your midgame items seems better.
On top of which, I have never seen Salce/TheOddOne/any other notable Annie player start DRing on Annie. It's always DShield.
dshield is better for early exchanges (lvl 1 teamfights, early laning) because the hp/5 and armor will allow you to come off exchanges with q->w-> auto as necessary or allowed on the higher side, and will allow you to eat an autoattack or two while charging your q without getting wrecked by autoattack punishment
missing your qs will hurt this opening but i think dshield is more solid on most casters that rely on a poke-y or bursty exchange that don't have natural damage mitigation
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On November 09 2010 07:02 WaveofShadow wrote:
So, upon trying out Annie in a practice game, I noticed I was NOT getting Mejai's stacks for a Tibbers kill.
Is this a bug?
Or is this true for all pets, ie Morde?
You don't get golem when Tibbers kills it either
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now that flash doesn't dodge projectiles, you should always be using Q to start your kill combo in lane. god i love being right 2 months in advance. also d-shield always always on annie as far as i'm concerned. d-ring is such a joke on her
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tibbers-> combo
they can still flash away from q and land under tower range where u'll be unable to hit them without diving, exposing yourself to jungle ganks and tibbers will not do as much dmg/ tower autotargets annie not tibbers.
Flash tibbers allows you to walk tibbers and yourself past the champ in their path to run, allowing you to autoattack and burn them with tibbers,
flash + q does not.
not to mention tibbers range >> q range by far.
Most people underestimate tibbers flash range, but they should be well out of flash+ q range if they're not awful
dring-> dshield, as annie won't take much dmg if you play smart,
- her auto attack is longest
- her stun allows u to combo then safely run out.
if you take hits and need dshield it is because you are playing bad.
- - - - - - -
+ Show Spoiler [tl;dr] +gtrsrs is wrong
flash + tibbers> flash + q
dring> dshield
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what makes dring a joke on annie ~.~
ap is nice, hp is nice, mp5 is nice....
yes, the passive element on q negates some of the mana consumption in lane, but its not like you're sitting there q'ing ONLY to last-hit creeps, you're going to be harassing with your skills too
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United States47024 Posts
On December 20 2010 10:09 HeavOnEarth wrote:
dring-> dshield, as annie won't take much dmg if you play smart,
- her auto attack is longest
- her stun allows u to combo then safely run out.
Playing smart doesn't necessarily entail not taking damage--DShield increases the number of situations where you can make trades, which makes it more likely that you can push people into burst range for when you hit level 6.
DShield is clearly the right start at least some (and probably most) of the time--else TheOddOne, Salce, Reginald and other better Annie players wouldn't be starting with it in virtually every game I've ever seen them play Annie, and they're all good enough players that I wouldn't say that them taking DShield is just a product of them "playing bad". I'd like to distinguish in which situations DRing is the better way to start (if there are such situations at all), and saying that DRing is straight up better is both unhelpful and probably wrong.
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On December 20 2010 10:09 HeavOnEarth wrote:tibbers-> combo they can still flash away from q and land under tower range where u'll be unable to hit them without diving, exposing yourself to jungle ganks and tibbers will not do as much dmg/ tower autotargets annie not tibbers. Flash tibbers allows you to walk tibbers and yourself past the champ in their path to run, allowing you to autoattack and burn them with tibbers, flash + q does not. not to mention tibbers range >> q range by far. Most people underestimate tibbers flash range, but they should be well out of flash+ q range if they're not awful dring-> dshield, as annie won't take much dmg if you play smart, - her auto attack is longest - her stun allows u to combo then safely run out. if you take hits and need dshield it is because you are playing bad. - - - - - - - + Show Spoiler [tl;dr] +gtrsrs is wrong
flash + tibbers> flash + q
dring> dshield
also beware of summoners who take teleport and just teleport out of the lane after you stun, eating greasy foods while playing (which can cause your fingers to slip and accidentally hit E instead of Q), junglers who sit in the brush for hours at a time waiting for you to flash->Q and pounce on you, and people who literally type "u'll"
have to be ready for anything in this game.
to barbsq,
ap is nice but not as nice on annie as it is on other people imo, and armor is a better stat early-game. hp IS nice which is why we want to max it via dshield. mp5 is the worst stat in the game to pay for with gold, take mp5/level yellows. hp regen lets you make mistakes without being forced out of the lane for it. i would only take dring right now when i know i'll be in a lane against another solo caster that wants to spam a lot and i need to keep up with them with constant nuking damage (leblanc maybe, maybe malphite? but i don't think that would turn out well either)
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On December 20 2010 11:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 10:09 HeavOnEarth wrote:
dring-> dshield, as annie won't take much dmg if you play smart,
- her auto attack is longest
- her stun allows u to combo then safely run out. Playing smart doesn't necessarily entail not taking damage--DShield increases the number of situations where you can make trades, which makes it more likely that you can push people into burst range for when you hit level 6. DShield is clearly the right start at least some (and probably most) of the time--else TheOddOne, Salce, Reginald and other better Annie players wouldn't be starting with it in virtually every game I've ever seen them play Annie, and they're all good enough players that I wouldn't say that them taking DShield is just a product of them "playing bad". I'd like to distinguish in which situations DRing is the better way to start (if there are such situations at all), and saying that DRing is straight up better is both unhelpful and probably wrong.
salce and reginald's annies are fucking awful. if they're taking dshield that would be a reason NOT to do it. lol
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I don't understand the complaints about AP being bad. The reason your ratio's are low is because ALL your damage basically benefits from it. The only other damage increasing tool is cooldown reduction and that's less burst which is annie's greatest asset.
I mean, if you're building HP instead of AP that's great but the problem is annie has basically zero base defensive skills, the shield helps in situations where you want to finish the other dude off first thus the magic/armour and damage on hit effect. I find with annie you should keep out of spell range until your spells are off cooldown. Even going in for an incinerate I find VERY risky. As such, I find going heavy defensive items bad because if you are taking that much damage you're probably going to die if you can't get away but its wasted if the tanky or melee's are taking the damage. It makes more sense to get stuff like rod of ages or MAYBE a banshee's veil that gives you enough for laning and to survive some burst with your defensive skills but you get owned by any kind of focus fire. But that's OK, because the way annie works you unload your burst even 5 seconds or so, which benefits the most from only running in to range for 2-3 spells then you run out again, that way you get your maximum damage and maximum survivability, and you have ghost/flash if the teamfight didn't go your way. Getting defensive items on other characters makes a lot of sense when being in range of the other guy for longer means more damage from auto attacks.
Doran's shield is armour and hp/5 vs 15 AP and mp/5. The way I see is that you typically don't get hit by melee in lane phase so you don't really need the armour, and I'd say mp5 vs hp5 depends on the lane opponent(s) and partner if its a 2v2 lane. In any case mp5 allows you to harass with your fireball and unload burst to threaten without being totally defenseless. hp/5 allows you to stay in lane farming but you can't really harass well. The 20 hp difference is not a big deal, and I'd say the 15 AP is useful midgame and helps your laning phase if you harass. Call it a .6 ratio but 10 damage on a tibbers/fireball/incinerate/run/fireball combo is 40 damage which can make the difference between a kill easily.
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On December 20 2010 21:45 Slayer91 wrote:
I don't understand the complaints about AP being bad. The reason your ratio's are low is because ALL your damage basically benefits from it. The only other damage increasing tool is cooldown reduction and that's less burst which is annie's greatest asset.
I mean, if you're building HP instead of AP that's great but the problem is annie has basically zero base defensive skills, the shield helps in situations where you want to finish the other dude off first thus the magic/armour and damage on hit effect. I find with annie you should keep out of spell range until your spells are off cooldown. Even going in for an incinerate I find VERY risky. As such, I find going heavy defensive items bad because if you are taking that much damage you're probably going to die if you can't get away but its wasted if the tanky or melee's are taking the damage. It makes more sense to get stuff like rod of ages or MAYBE a banshee's veil that gives you enough for laning and to survive some burst with your defensive skills but you get owned by any kind of focus fire. But that's OK, because the way annie works you unload your burst even 5 seconds or so, which benefits the most from only running in to range for 2-3 spells then you run out again, that way you get your maximum damage and maximum survivability, and you have ghost/flash if the teamfight didn't go your way. Getting defensive items on other characters makes a lot of sense when being in range of the other guy for longer means more damage from auto attacks.
Doran's shield is armour and hp/5 vs 15 AP and mp/5. The way I see is that you typically don't get hit by melee in lane phase so you don't really need the armour, and I'd say mp5 vs hp5 depends on the lane opponent(s) and partner if its a 2v2 lane. In any case mp5 allows you to harass with your fireball and unload burst to threaten without being totally defenseless. hp/5 allows you to stay in lane farming but you can't really harass well. The 20 hp difference is not a big deal, and I'd say the 15 AP is useful midgame and helps your laning phase if you harass. Call it a .6 ratio but 10 damage on a tibbers/fireball/incinerate/run/fireball combo is 40 damage which can make the difference between a kill easily.
The reason AP is bad is that it doesn't improve your damage as much as Mpen does. Obviously you're not going to build AD, but you want to prioritize the items that give you pen and AP over AP and another stat.
Am I the only one who likes to open Sapphire on Annie? I don't play her often but sapphire for fast catalyst is great.
Also flash->tibbers obviously best =/.
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I do usually do dorans ring -> sorc boots / haunting guise / RoA / void / zhonya when I play annie.
Figured that you might as well get all the mpen that you can get your hands on
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alright mpen it is
I usually only go void staff if they have high mresist though. Not sure if that's smart, base resist is like 50 or sov around the time you can get it, still like 20 mpen.
So i'll probably build annie for my main when i hit 30 and go ranked until i can get good at playing jax since he's hard and requires expensive runes to properly jungle. maybe ill play more with mordekaiser or get a new hero but i doubt it runes are expensive and i only go 13 levels of IP before i can start going ranked.
Mastery build 9/0/21 seems non negotiable, ill build up to lvl 30 asap.
Runes:
Red: Mpen
Yellow: HP
Blue: CD reduction//Mp5//AP/lvl
The reason for hp is that an extra 50 is very nice, especially if you want to go fast catalyst or something. (I'd say sapphire first sounds good if you have a good lane partner, otherwise i find the mp5 hp and ap all very necessary to get any sort of harass in)
I'd originally want to go for AP/lvl since you don't want the AP that much before around lvl 5 where it equalizes with pure AP, but CDR might be good if you guys stress that AP is bad? mp5 is more like a footnote but i often find i buy mana pots to allow me to dominate lanes, should I just take a blue buff, and get mp5 runes?
flash tibbers is obviously good but i try to avoid using flash because everybody keeps talking about the eventual removal into an item or something, i dunno its probably stupid, but i figure relying on it for offensive combos is the kind of thing you shouldn't do too often when you can learn to use your movement speed when you're on CD.
Anybody have a spreadsheet for mpen vs AP and %mpen and how it factors in? I don't want you g uys to make it but they're usually floating around.
Quints: AP or HP i guess.
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if you want flat HP, you get it from your quint slot, not your seal slot. Mana Regen yellows are too strong.
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United States47024 Posts
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Oh shiznits, I just checked, seals give more mp5 than glyphs?!
Cool. Happy to give up AP for hp. So like.
3x HP quint
mpen mark
mp5 seal
AP/lvl glyphs?
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yea, pretty much, though theOddOne suggests CDR or MPen on your blues.
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holy shit just go boot + 3 pots already.
ring is terrible because you don't need mana regen. Q is cheap when harassing, and you should never miss one when last hitting.
I dont' get how annie trades with any traditional solo. none of them have stuns. the ones that do are melee that you can outrange with your auto for harass. with the exception of flash pantheon. he's gay.
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Thanks guys. I'll get whichever T3 runes are cheaper between CDR and MPen, the Oddone guide is very mathematically sound.
Boots + 3 pots seems questionable, you have the longest auto attack range in the game and you generally don't need to chase people down a lot. Meanwhile, I find harassing with Q burns your mana and obviously hp is always good.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:32 Slayer91 wrote:
Thanks guys. I'll get whichever T3 runes are cheaper between CDR and MPen, the Oddone guide is very mathematically sound.
Boots + 3 pots seems questionable, you have the longest auto attack range in the game and you generally don't need to chase people down a lot. Meanwhile, I find harassing with Q burns your mana and obviously hp is always good.
CDR is twice as expensive, but bear in mind that unless you're specifically building an Annie page, flat CDR glyphs are useful on way more champions than MPen glyphs. MPen glyphs are only really good on a small subset of casters, while CDR is usable (though probably not optimal) across a broad range of champions.
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Just Spec 9 Defensive, Flat Armor Seals, Dorans Shield and open E to harass with imba 600 range auto, who needs Q ??
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On December 20 2010 08:43 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 07:02 WaveofShadow wrote:
So, upon trying out Annie in a practice game, I noticed I was NOT getting Mejai's stacks for a Tibbers kill.
Is this a bug?
Or is this true for all pets, ie Morde? You don't get golem when Tibbers kills it either
Not exactly true. If the sunfire aura from Tibbers gets the killing blow, you don't get the golem buff; but if either Annie or Tibbers' autoattack get the kill, then you do get the buff.
On December 21 2010 10:45 Yiruru wrote:
Just Spec 9 Defensive, Flat Armor Seals, Dorans Shield and open E to harass with imba 600 range auto, who needs Q ??
625 range :D
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On December 21 2010 00:32 Slayer91 wrote:
alright mpen it is
I usually only go void staff if they have high mresist though. Not sure if that's smart, base resist is like 50 or sov around the time you can get it, still like 20 mpen.
So i'll probably build annie for my main when i hit 30 and go ranked until i can get good at playing jax since he's hard and requires expensive runes to properly jungle. maybe ill play more with mordekaiser or get a new hero but i doubt it runes are expensive and i only go 13 levels of IP before i can start going ranked.
Mastery build 9/0/21 seems non negotiable, ill build up to lvl 30 asap.
Runes:
Red: Mpen
Yellow: HP
Blue: CD reduction//Mp5//AP/lvl
The reason for hp is that an extra 50 is very nice, especially if you want to go fast catalyst or something. (I'd say sapphire first sounds good if you have a good lane partner, otherwise i find the mp5 hp and ap all very necessary to get any sort of harass in)
I'd originally want to go for AP/lvl since you don't want the AP that much before around lvl 5 where it equalizes with pure AP, but CDR might be good if you guys stress that AP is bad? mp5 is more like a footnote but i often find i buy mana pots to allow me to dominate lanes, should I just take a blue buff, and get mp5 runes?
flash tibbers is obviously good but i try to avoid using flash because everybody keeps talking about the eventual removal into an item or something, i dunno its probably stupid, but i figure relying on it for offensive combos is the kind of thing you shouldn't do too often when you can learn to use your movement speed when you're on CD.
Anybody have a spreadsheet for mpen vs AP and %mpen and how it factors in? I don't want you g uys to make it but they're usually floating around.
Quints: AP or HP i guess.
APen is *vastly* better than AP...if it's used. If you have more pen than your opponent has resist, it's (partially) wasted.
If an opponent has merc treads, they have ~60MR (including base). You can get rid of all of it with sorc boots/guise/abyssal, or most of it with sorc boots/guise/runes/masteries. If they buy a veil, FoN, or hexdrinker, you may want to respond by trading guise + sorc for void staff + treads.
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On December 21 2010 07:32 Slayer91 wrote:
Thanks guys. I'll get whichever T3 runes are cheaper between CDR and MPen, the Oddone guide is very mathematically sound.
Just get mr lol
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Any help on item options for annie? I feel kind of bottled into the same old item routine right now. I don't know how to change based on their team comp.
1: Dorans ring OR shield. (Shield vs strong harassers especially physical, ring vs tanky chars where I need the mana/AP)
2: 20 mpen boots (unless they have sick CC i get treads)
3: Rod of Ages
4: Archangel staff (unless my team has like no tanky chars, I can delay this)
5: Abyssal Sceptre/Banshes veil (sceptre for more damage, veil for surviability)
6; Whichever of 5 I didn't get.
7: Zhonya's, sell ring/shield.
Ideas:
Rylai's? Seems ok but not amazing.
Haunting Guise? Seems awfully cost inefficient for all of its stats.
DFG?
Anyone else feel +armour tanky items aren't really worth it? Like even most physical dps'ers have very large amounts of magic damage and since you don't get autoattacked much as annie you worry mo re about the bursty magic bits. I almost never feel justified after getting a thornmail because I find out katarina does magic or irelia can activate true damage or whatever.
As a tank I guess its worth it since you can soak auto hits but really as annie and most chars it seems magic resist is always the better stat.
Should I be mixing in Rylai's
I feel like archangels is debateable but I find the mana really helpful although perhaps the tears of the godess thing doesn't charge up nearly fast enough.
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United States47024 Posts
AA Staff is meh on Annie because her mana consumption isn't that ridiculous. Kass and Anivia can still blow through their mana even if they have blue, but blue basically covers Annie's mana needs entirely. And if you're not dying for the mana, Zhonya's Ring is just a better way to pick up the AP.
Rylais is meh because a lot of the time the slow is just going to be overlapping your stuns.
Because of Annie's middle-of-the-road AP ratios and high base damage output, MPen is the best stat if you can make use of it. In light of TheOddOne's guide, your build should vary based on how much MRes you're seeing. Skip to your big AP stuff only if you don't see ANY MR, some combination of Sorcs/Guise/Abyssal (Guise is really efficient against low MR values because of how large a % damage increase it is) if they have up to 80 MR, and past that just screw flat pen and get a Void Staff.
I haven't really gotten to play much with DFG, since people always insta-lock solo lane champs, so I can't really comment on its comparative usefulness relative to the other midgame options.
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On December 31 2010 03:46 TheYango wrote:
Because of Annie's middle-of-the-road AP ratios and high base damage output, MPen is the best stat if you can make use of it. In light of TheOddOne's guide, your build should vary based on how much MRes you're seeing. Skip to your big AP stuff only if you don't see any MR, some combination of Sorcs/Guise/Abyssal (Guise is really efficient against low MR values because of how large a % damage increase it is) if they have up to 80 MR, and past that just screw flat pen and get a Void Staff.
the second half of this paragraph is smarter than the first.
MPen is much stronger, the LESS Mres your opponents have. if you see 3 enemies with low MR values, then by all means grab those sorcs and guise first because you're going to have a huge early-game advantage. if you're playing against 5 champs who all spec'd defensive and opened mercs and banshee's, you're much better off buying your big AP items/survivability items and getting your void staff (which brings you to 49% pen with the MPen mastery)
also the build i used to carry myself out of the 700 elo level that worked pretty effectively up til 1300 was d-shield into double RoA, void staff, then aegis then zhonya. earlygame i'd buy sorcs and sell them for mercs latergame. double RoA + aegis plus your W gives you like 3500 HP and 180armor/140MRes, so you're impossible to kill, but void staff + MPen mastery makes you an offensive threat beyond your stuns. i don't like this build any more because it's hard to get that much farm, but at low levels where overextending is the name of the game, this build is very obtainable with as few as 3 kills earlygame and extreme concentration on farming earlygame.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 31 2010 03:56 gtrsrs wrote:
MPen is much stronger, the LESS Mres your opponents have. if you see 3 enemies with low MR values, then by all means grab those sorcs and guise first because you're going to have a huge early-game advantage. if you're playing against 5 champs who all spec'd defensive and opened mercs and banshee's, you're much better off buying your big AP items/survivability items and getting your void staff (which brings you to 49% pen with the MPen mastery)
I sort of worded that poorly but that's what I meant. When I said no MR, I mean they literally got none--e.g. they're sitting at the base 30, and flat pen does you no good because Sorcs + runes = 30 MPen and any extra is doing nothing (it's not a situation relevant against good players, seeing as they will get MR for you, but for someone who needs a guide, players who never buy a single point of MR do show up). And the last part covers everything else. Basically:
30-40 MR (base, base + runes, base + defensive masteries but no items) - Sorcs as your only MPen source, because Guise/Abyssal/Void MPen is wasted when you have 30 MPen and they only have 30 MR.
40-80 MR - Sorcs/Guise/Abyssal; this is the sweet spot for flat pen because the MR is low enough that MPen is a large % damage increase, but its not so low that they hit 0 and make some of your penetration wasted.
80+ MR - Flat pen loses power, and Void Staff gains power, so just get Void Staff and other stuff
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United States2822 Posts
Made a slight edit for the item build post patch. Nothing else really changes.
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Hey guys, I've learned a lot since I was last posting. What are your current build choices on annie?
Right now I'm trying;
Dshield (I <3 autoattacks, so being able to risk taking hits with the hp regen armour and more hp is really helpful, mana crystal +2 makes a lot of sense as well, since it takes like, what 5 minutes of constant regen to overtake 400 hp from 2 hp pots? so you're not hurting that badly, and the mana is nice, especially if you didn't back before 6 so you can actually kill them.
-Catalyst. Can't see is being possible to skip this, going H.G first leaves you with not enough mana to really do anything.
-> RoA or Haunting guise, pick RoA faster if you got some kills or whatever and can get it fast. If you're bot lane or aren't doing well get banshees out of your catalyst instead. Reasoning is that if you're doing worse you're lower level and gold so you're easier to kill, so building survival is more damage anyway. If you're doing well you have more gold to make defensive stuff, are higher level so are naturally tougher and you need the extra mana and AP to carry your team properly, as running out of mana in teamfights which I often do with just banshees (and a lower lvl annie) sucks so bad. Sometimes when you get banshees AND RoA you have way too much mana though, so I'm not totally sold yet, maybe you need to look at their teamcomp first.
-->DFG, since it really boosts your ability to kill 1 target fast, with AP/CDR and the active together, you get your second Q and second W back faster and have a nice active. Not sure if this should be reserered for situations where you aren't farmed though.
Banshee/Zonya hourglass//Death cap//Glacial shroud??. I feel like you need some survival toward the end, so you can get in and get dirty with their squishies. If you've got really solid tanks or melee targets death cap works great as well. I feel like glacial shroud is maybe good if you need that last 15% CDR (which improves DPS by far the most) and armour, and mana helps if they are kinda tanky and you want to be able to kill trucking i.e you're not getting focused and you need to help kill the tanky guys at the end.
Also, running HP quint/Mpen red/Mp5 yellow/mr/lvl blues. Because you always want MR and they were cheap. Thinking about CDR runes though, 6% seems small enough, but if it makes that last difference maybe its worth it?
15% DFG
10% Blue elixir
9% Talents
34%
So CDR runes should bring you exactly to max CDR which is the biggest increase. The only thing is that you need DFG and bluepot, its almost easier just to secure blue buff. Having like 30 more MR at level 18 is pretty good too. I'm not sure. Leaning toward CDR now but they are expensive.
Not the biggest fan of abyssal but maybe if it was arranged team and we were thinking more toward the big picture paying 1k for 20 AoE mpen might be more worthwhile, if you already need magic resist.
Really don't like rylai's btw, just buy a giants belt and go into something else if you need the HP. You can build it into warmogs later or something if they really have spread out damage LOL.
Haunting guise seems to make difference when I really thought it sucked after seeing annie's open it first, which I still think is a bad. It seems really boss with 50 MPEN and even with treads you nuke them down so fast.
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United States47024 Posts
After the nerf, I've stopped using mp5/lvl seals on Annie, and slotted them out for armor seals. Annie really doesn't need the mp5 that much, as you pick up enough regen sources as you go. Running MPen marks/quints, armor seals, and ap/lvl glyphs--I'll replace the ap/lvl glyphs with MPen once I get around to buying them.
Item-wise, I'm finding myself not picking up Guise/Abyssal that often, and just finishing off RoA. Particularly after CDR boots came out, I'm seeing less people getting Mercs and falling in that sweet spot where Guise/Abyssal are worthwhile (usually I end up just seeing Negatron cloaks, for which Void Staff is a better response).
With regard to DFG, I've been a bit hesitant to get it after DCap came out, and I have a hard time justifying it if I'm likely to see continuous blue buffs. I'd still buy it if I'm not guaranteed to see every blue buff on our side of the map.
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Imo:
- Mana crystal (faster catalyst)
- Catalyst (no brainer)
- Sorc boots (cos girls need shoes)
- Soulstealer + haunting guise (if you think you can close the game + have good ward coverage) OR Deathcap (reliable AP source)
- Banshee / Void staff (banshee to give you the edge at the start of fights where an annie stun is really important, void staff to increase damage).
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United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2011 05:38 Juicyfruit wrote:
Imo:
- Mana crystal (faster catalyst)
- Catalyst (no brainer)
- Sorc boots (cos girls need shoes)
- Soulstealer + haunting guise OR Deathcap (increase damage output a little more)
- Banshee / Void staff (banshee to give you the edge at the start of fights where an annie stun is really important, void staff to increase damage).
Rod of Ages is still #1 core item on Annie.
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It's only nice if you are REALLY hurting for a big HP source, and I don't really get too much of that problem.
Catalyst + Sorc + Haunting Guise + Mejai is enough to start closing out the game. Rod of ages is too much money on mana + health. Catalyst + Haunting guise is a lot of health already.
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lol at soulstealer on annie
maybe at 1300 elo
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United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2011 05:44 Juicyfruit wrote:
Catalyst + Sorc + Haunting Guise + Mejai is enough to start closing out the game. Rod of ages is too much money on mana + health. Catalyst + Haunting guise is a lot of health already.
If you already get Catalyst, Catalyst->RoA is strictly a better buy than getting Haunting Guise unless you're getting absolutely full utility out of guise--which rarely happens for me.
EDIT: 1485 for Haunting Guise, 1710 for RoA
RoA gives 160 HP, 200 Mana, 60 AP, and growing bonuses
Haunting Guise gives 180 HP, 20 AP, and 20 MPen
The 20 MPen is basically only useful at that stage of the game if multiple people on the other team have Mercs already, or if a support managed to get Aegis out super-fast, because unless they're using a Null-Magic Mantle-based item, they're not going to be in the MR range where Guise pen actually does anything (Runes + Sorcs gives you about 40 flat pen to begin with, which covers most reasonable combinations of MR runes/masteries). Many squishies eschew Mercs for a later Negatron item (which, by the time they get, the RoA bonuses will have kicked in), so its not inconceivable that Guise would be a worse buy than RoA, even up-front.
Even if you do end up needing Guise, it's totally reasonable to get it after RoA (which is even the preferred item order that TheOddOne suggests in his guide).
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If you aren't planning on winning by midgame, then you start towards deathcap and/or void staff. I just find RoA to really miss the timing on Annie's dominant stage of the game, not to mention banshee's such a good annie item that you never waste that catalyst even if you don't make RoA.
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yeah I switched to flat mana regen seals and might switch them for armour since I can basic attack troll more.
Who gets soulstealer on annie o.O. She is someone who has to go in and deal damage and can't sit back like other soulstealer champs.
That's why I still think RoA is so good, makes you beefy enough to do what you need do and more mana to get more damage out, and some AP in there aswell.
Not too sure about DFG either, but it makes a lot of sense.
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In solo ranked you are probably better off going a rod deathcap void route because games tend to last longer and you need to be more of a lategame threat. I still feel to get the most out of Annie you gotta go a stack flat pen route and give your team amazing midgame initiations with it.
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You only need void staff to kill high MR targets, and unless its SUPER late when most games end in about 30 minutes your targets like ranged carry//ap carry/melee dps//suport aren't going to have more than at most a banshee veil (which you completely penetrate with 50 mpen anyway).
You're never going to be a great tank killer anyway, so normally you don't need void staff.
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I like getting Sorcs/Guise early, and depending on when I go back and how it's going etc. I grab a Mana Crystal or a Catalyst, an extra Amp Tome or a Mejai's. If I have trouble I skip the Guise and aim for an earlier Void Staff. Catalyst usually ends up building into Banshee's because I get lots of focus, but ideally I would build a RoA.
So basically the core is for me: Sorcs, Guise, Cata. Items I like to get after that: Banshee's, RoA, Void Staff, Mejai's. Not a big fan of Deathcap, I like to tank with the rest of my items.
I really like Mejai's on Annie, although I'm used to never ever building snowball items, so I often forget about it. Basically Annie does her QWERGTFO. It's not that useful for your enemies to focus you right after your spells are on cooldown, and ideally most of them are stunned anyways. I don't have much of a problem maintaining a decent amount of stacks that way. And if they keep focusing me, I build more and more tank items so that their focus makes them lose the fight.
Oh and starting without an early Catalyst requires really careful mana management. Especially getting your passive up at the right times without wasting mana is tough. But getting that extra MPen/AP can be REALLY strong.
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Real way to play annie is ERWQ, ghost, run away//around from whoever is on you then go back in for more W and Q while your E is still up.
Flash in or out if necessary of course.
Though I guess if you're going like mpen/mejai's you won't have much mana at all until later on.
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A lot of nonsense being posted. Void staff is very much worth it, especially once their champs have merc treads + banshees.
I don't feel like explaining why if you're winning your lane that you should invest in items that give you a very immediate impact. Rod of ages is not an item catered towards mid-game. In terms of HP + AP it barely surpasses giant's belt + needlessly large rod, so you better justify needing that mana rather than just fight with blue buff. Rod is an item you'd get if you just want to passively dick around and farm some more, but it's not exactly optimal. An annie with Rod + Deathcap + Void staff is absolutely crap compared to Anivia with the same items.
The reason you'd get a haunting guise + a soul stealer when you're decently ahead in lane is because the entire enemy team would have to play around the fact that you have a soulstealer. That is to say, if they don't end up killing you in a teamfight, you probably just ended up with 6 stacks. It's low-risk, high-payoff strategy since Annie basically peaks at sorc boots + haunting guise anyways, but a charged mejai is an immediate "autowin".
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On February 24 2011 07:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Real way to play annie is ERWQ, ghost, run away//around from whoever is on you then go back in for more W and Q while your E is still up.
Flash in or out if necessary of course.
Though I guess if you're going like mpen/mejai's you won't have much mana at all until later on.
Ignite instead of Ghost.
Use E after R to get your second stun up earlier.
Of course you weave in and out while you still can, stay safe until your stun is up and then try to get another clutch W stun off.
As I said, it's tough to manage such a low manapool with such expensive spells. You should try to always enter fights at full mana.
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I always feel crippled without ghost and a lot of mana. Sure for you guys with 100% uptime bluebuff (or can predict when fights happen and time your bluebuff, assuming you're the only one who needs it) you don't need any mana, but at level 11 it takes about 500/700 base mana to use your burst so you can only get 1 more spell after that before you're oom. Even with bluebuff that's kinda sucky. I always prefer to rely on rod of ages//at least banshee's and not only on 1 set of burst so that if I survive then I can keep damaging them. You also get 630 health points after 10 minutes (I dunno if 30-35 minutes is lategame or not) which you can use to put in more damage.
As spines said, generally you're not a prime focus target since you can easily stay away from the AoE spam and still use all your spells and if someone chases you, you can hit them for the second stun.
I'm also terrible about timing my E, sometimes I forget it, sometimes I pop it too early, sometimes I pop it after I unload my burst when it's too late because I'm already under half HP (obviously more relevant lategame, at lvl 1-2 its more like an extra stun charge, but after that its a free chainmail+negatron cloak + some return fire damage which helps you burst down a ranged carry if they try to fight back)
I always play annie kind of tanky/anti-carry more as opposed to like AP carry do shitloads of damage upfront then run away like kassadin/aniv maybe its bad but I think its definitely viable.
Also, its not like
A: YOU WIN IN MIDGAME
B: BUILD DEATHCAP
There's a gentle curve to winning. You can go gain an advantage in midgame while still having a strong lategame. If you built lategame and do poorly in the midgame it might not be worth it. I don't think you should break the game down into 1's and 0's like that.
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Why anyone would skip Catalyst is behind me...
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On February 24 2011 08:30 Yiruru wrote:
Why anyone would skip Catalyst is behind me...
at their elo people pick 4 carries and people with no laning power. Annie rushing magic pen/ap one shots everything.
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On February 24 2011 08:30 Yiruru wrote:
Why anyone would skip Catalyst is behind me...
Not skip. Delay.
When you think you can get away with Haunting Guise before Catalyst (basically when you think that you don't need the lanestaying power and don't expect to have a real big teamfight very soon), you can just get that extra bit of burst.
Guise gives you HP as well, so for short fights it offers about the same survivability as Cata. You trade mana for damage. Which basically means that you concentrate your damage on less spells. In longer fights, Cata probably deals more damage because you will get to cast 2+ extra spells (don't wanna calculate that), but if you only get that one combo off before your enemies flash away or you have to get out yourself then it's probably worth it.
I sometimes get an early Mana Crystal and then finish Sorcs + Guise before Cata.
The other thing is of course to delay Cata for Mejai's, but I would only do that if I know that I'm going to beat the crap out of my enemies.
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just read oddone's guide lol
his so different in writing
for any1 that read his guide plz do note that his quite an asshole in vent lol
User was temp banned for this post.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:11 spinesheath wrote:
So basically the core is for me: Sorcs, Guise, Cata. Items I like to get after that: Banshee's, RoA, Void Staff, Mejai's. Not a big fan of Deathcap, I like to tank with the rest of my items.
What's the point of having 50-60 flat pen that early? People aren't going to beeline Mercs that fast, so you're going to be making use of like 40 of it tops.
Actually, I don't see how you could ever back at 6, and make the decision to return to lane with Sorcs over finishing Cata. It's like, either you get cata and can herp derp around and still win lane, or you get Sorcs, and maybe win the lane if they're dumb and let you combo them to death.
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Or I come back with Sorcs, throw them a Q or 2, and suddenly they are in danger of getting killed by RQW Ignite. Or my jungler joins the fight, instant kill. With Flash and Annie's range, once your enemy is low enough to be bursted down, you essentially have him zoned or killed. If they are not "dumb" in this situation, they sit at their tower and hope for their jungler to help out.
Obviously if your enemies sit at 30 MRes you don't get Sorcs + Guise. However, when you are up against Annie and you know you can beat her if you survive her burst - wouldn't you get a Null Magic Mantle or a Ruby Crystal early?
Also when your enemy can harrass/farm because of longer range or is too tanky to be bursted down, you don't go for the early MPen.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 24 2011 09:41 locodoco wrote:
just read oddone's guide lol
his so different in writing
for any1 that read his guide plz do note that his quite an asshole in vent lol
lol
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Finding the need for earlier zhonya when brawlers start running rampant,
discuss.
Something like
Catalyst -> Sorc -> Guise -> NLR -> Finish Banshee/Zhonya.
Dominant mid-game magic pen + just enough AP from NLR and then straight into very efficient tank items. Zhonya will definitely let you get 1 more Q out, and the best thing you can do as annie is getting out a second AoE stun in teamfights. She`s pretty boss at cleanup if your team wins.
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United States47024 Posts
Just did out some of the math on Guise vs. Rod. The difference between the two is 20 MPen vs 40 AP. Assuming Annie at level 10 with rank 5 W, rank 3 Q, rank 1 W and rank 1 R, you have a burst of 695+1.9xAP damage. Assuming your only additional AP comes from the 20 AP common to both Rod and Guise, this gives you burst of 733 damage before factoring the item-specific benefits. 40 AP gives you 76 additional damage, bringing your pre-MRes damage up to 809, which is a 10% increase in damage. From here on out, I'm assuming a runepage that runs MPen marks/glyphs/quints and Sorc Shoes for a pre-Guise flat pen of 39 Mpen.
~50 MRes is the first breakeven point where the two items do identical damage (e.g. you make use of 10 MPen from Guise, resulting in a ~10% increase in damage). The second breakeven point is at ~140 MRes (you make use of all 20 MPen from Guise, but going from 120 effective MR to 100 effective MR is a 10% damage increase). Guise's maximum effectiveness is at ~60 MRes. The MPen is dead weight until 39 MR, at which point its utility grows for the next 20 points of MR, then dropping off for the next 80 MR.
A squishy target with only Mercs as an MR source is basically at the breakeven point (55 MR, which puts the damage differential of your entire combo at ~30 damage). A tank with Mercs, Negatron, MR/lvl glyphs (assuming that said tank is at level 10 like the Annie in question), and 6 MRes from the defensive tree is also somewhat near the breakeven point (125 MR, which puts the damage differential of your entire combo at only ~6 damage).
It's up to you whether you think the short-term benefits of Guise outweighs Rod's growth. Personally, I think Rod is better unless you're seeing targets significantly within the range of Guise's superiority--at conventional MR values, Rod is going to provide about the same damage immediately, and way more damage later on. Of course, Guise may still be a reasonable buy in addition to Rod of Ages.
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Annie's primary targets typically will not get past 120 MRes (unless you are the only threat on your team). Therefore it's not really reasonable to say that Guise only has short-term benefits.
That aside, Annie needs to abuse her strong early/midgame. RoA doesn't do that.
Imo it's really a decision you have to make again every single game. Can you burst people down if you get a Guise? Can you burst them down no matter what you get? Do you need the HP/Mana more than burst?
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United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2011 18:34 spinesheath wrote:
Annie's primary targets typically will not get past 120 MRes (unless you are the only threat on your team). Therefore it's not really reasonable to say that Guise only has short-term benefits.
That aside, Annie needs to abuse her strong early/midgame. RoA doesn't do that.
Imo it's really a decision you have to make again every single game. Can you burst people down if you get a Guise? Can you burst them down no matter what you get? Do you need the HP/Mana more than burst?
It has short term benefits in the sense that, while her primary targets do not typically get super-high MR, they likely will get to the point where Guise falls behind Void Staff--once you get around to getting Void Staff, Guise becomes way worse.
As an aside, given the way the Poppy thread was turning out, I was very tempted to simply write something along the lines of "TheOddOne suggests Rod-before-Guise and I've never seen him get Guise-before-Rod--therefore you're wrong," just to troll you, but I decided against it. 
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From wrong thread:
On that note ezpz, does annie beat corki in lane? I played a 1v1 yesterday with goshawk (he's like, 1850 EU?) while scip and skies were like testing mundo vs irelia top and basically he went super aggressive. I was running tank runes so we were both trying to get auto hits and Q's off before creeps even spawned. Basically at level 3 I flashed in on him at 223hp and he flashed out of my W (but took my Q) and barely won. But I get the feeling that if I play passive, I'm going to get owned by his bombs. Is this accurate? Normally I'm thinking that I am way too aggressive as annie before level 3. (as when you have lvl 2 Q and lvl 1 W is usually around when you have higher burst than the other champs, assuming you dodge their skillshots, next threshold is level 6, hopefully you were able to comfortably back once by then.) Also, I tend to make a mix of Q and basic attacks to last hit. Normally Q is not an option to harass them since its pretty long range, except when creeps mostly high hp and your stun is up//close, but perhaps its better to use basic attacks most of the time and keep your stun close to ready or ready just so they can't harass you while its on CD? This way will net me personally about like 75% of the CS or something because last hitting primiarily with basic attacks is hard
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w>q will help all annie MUs
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Q is much easier to last hit with and harass with so I QWQWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
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What item do people start with on annie these days?
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Sapphire+2 pots or Doran's Shield; can't see anything else being seriously viable.
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On February 26 2011 18:01 TheYango wrote:
Just did out some of the math on Guise vs. Rod. The difference between the two is 20 MPen vs 40 AP. Assuming Annie at level 10 with rank 5 W, rank 3 Q, rank 1 W and rank 1 R, you have a burst of 695+1.9xAP damage. Assuming your only additional AP comes from the 20 AP common to both Rod and Guise, this gives you burst of 733 damage before factoring the item-specific benefits. 40 AP gives you 76 additional damage, bringing your pre-MRes damage up to 809, which is a 10% increase in damage. From here on out, I'm assuming a runepage that runs MPen marks/glyphs/quints and Sorc Shoes for a pre-Guise flat pen of 39 Mpen.
~50 MRes is the first breakeven point where the two items do identical damage (e.g. you make use of 10 MPen from Guise, resulting in a ~10% increase in damage). The second breakeven point is at ~140 MRes (you make use of all 20 MPen from Guise, but going from 120 effective MR to 100 effective MR is a 10% damage increase). Guise's maximum effectiveness is at ~60 MRes. The MPen is dead weight until 39 MR, at which point its utility grows for the next 20 points of MR, then dropping off for the next 80 MR.
A squishy target with only Mercs as an MR source is basically at the breakeven point (55 MR, which puts the damage differential of your entire combo at ~30 damage). A tank with Mercs, Negatron, MR/lvl glyphs (assuming that said tank is at level 10 like the Annie in question), and 6 MRes from the defensive tree is also somewhat near the breakeven point (125 MR, which puts the damage differential of your entire combo at only ~6 damage).
It's up to you whether you think the short-term benefits of Guise outweighs Rod's growth. Personally, I think Rod is better unless you're seeing targets significantly within the range of Guise's superiority--at conventional MR values, Rod is going to provide about the same damage immediately, and way more damage later on. Of course, Guise may still be a reasonable buy in addition to Rod of Ages.
- Building RoA uses up a catalyst, that not only can still HELP you at this stage when you level up, but will eventually be used for banshee that you probably should have as annie since you really don't want to be a possible initation target while still trying to be an initation threat yourself.
If you build RoA you have to keep in mind this delays your banshee's by 1000g, lowers your damage output for quite a while because of no haunting guise, AND doesn't even give that much more effective mana considering catalyst level ups. Late-game Annie doesn't have any mana problems, and she can always grab blue buff since CDR helps her a whole lot if she's fairly tanky.
It also costs something like 300-400g more than haunting guise? If you build up from catalyst that is
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Deathcap/Rylai/Banshee/Void/Zhonyas/Boots
I don't know why you would ever get Rod, Rylais is better in every scenario
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The "out of mana one"?
That's obviously the scenario when a mana/ap/hp is better than an ap/hp item?
Rylai's vs a fully charged rod is an active that you don't use that much with your stun for 130 hp and 725 mana.
And rylai's costs 75 more gold.
I actually only just directly compared them. I never knew that rylai's was so bad . It always did feel underwhelming though.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
wat? rylai's is 20x better then RoA lol
if you're OOM on Annie you are DEFINITELY doing it wrong.
mana isn't a worthwhile stat unless you are some one that can essentially use infinite mana like kassadin or anivia, thats about it. And ryze of course, but hes another story.
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United States47024 Posts
Then would someone like to explain to me why TheOddOne recommends/gets RoA all the time?
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
probably just because its his playstyle and he doesnt bother to change it because hes used to it. with deathcap out it is probably more productive to go
catalyst --> NLR/BW --> deathcap ---> Rylai's ---> Finish banshee/void ----> do the other
with hourglass being more of a luxury item...wouldnt see it to be too pressing on annie
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On February 27 2011 04:21 Brees wrote:
wat? rylai's is 20x better then RoA lol
if you're OOM on Annie you are DEFINITELY doing it wrong.
mana isn't a worthwhile stat unless you are some one that can essentially use infinite mana like kassadin or anivia, thats about it. And ryze of course, but hes another story.
You're saying that the rylai slow is 20x better than 130 hp and 725 mana?
If I'm oom on annie it just means I'm casting a lot of spells. Maybe a couple hundred elo points higher I need just my burst and the teamfights over but where I am right now any prolonged fight my mana is getting stretched until I get my rod fully charged up.
Like, I can understand skipping rod and getting banshee's (where I usually have mana issues at some point) but skipping rod and getting rylai's which is an equal cost for basically nothing else just boggles me.
I'm also not a big fan of void staff. Like the only real time its cost effective is vs tanks/tanky dps who with your builds won't have nearly enough mana to kill.
If I was skipping rod I'd go
Catalyst-->Haunting Guise-->Deathcap-->-->Banshee->Hourglass//DFG
Maybe getting banshee earlier if I need the mana/survival.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
oh yea, the ability to kite/chase while your stun is down is huge imo.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 27 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm also not a big fan of void staff. Like the only real time its cost effective is vs tanks/tanky dps who with your builds won't have nearly enough mana to kill.
Void Staff is actually already reasonable damage-per-gold against targets with ~100 MR, which is very much within reach of most squishies.
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Does that include sorc pen//runes//masteries and possibly haunting guise though?
Most ranged carries seem to build say a veil as their defense, which puts them at 80+runes/masteries, say just 86 for SoS builds, meaning if you have sorc/mpen marks/masteries/HG you're removing 15% then you have 73 left -50 = about 23 magic resist left, add someone with an abyssal and you're back to about zero.
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So you are level 18 and the only mana item you have is a Catalyst. 1150 Mana total.
R 250 (stun)
Q 120
W 160
E 25
Q 120
Q 120
W 160 (stun)
total: 955
mana left: 195
And that's basically all done in less than 10 seconds. With MP5/lvl seals and 3/3 Meditation you regen about 50 mana during those 10 seconds. So at best you get 2 more Qs off and then you are oom.
Sure, often that's all Annie has to do in a teamfight, but you definitely cannot say that Annie should never run out of mana; there are fights that last longer than 10 seconds. Sometimes you will use your stun in a small fight/gank, and before you can go back home you might have to fight again, but surely you want to get your stun up in time for that. And suddenly you have mana problems.
Imo Rylais is not important on Annie simply because her role is burst and not chase. It's not bad on her though, no doubt.
On February 27 2011 05:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Does that include sorc pen//runes//masteries and possibly haunting guise though?
Most ranged carries seem to build say a veil as their defense, which puts them at 80+runes/masteries, say just 86 for SoS builds, meaning if you have sorc/mpen marks/masteries/HG you're removing 15% then you have 73 left -50 = about 23 magic resist left, add someone with an abyssal and you're back to about zero.
Shouldn't it be flat pen before % pen?
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Ya I think I made that correction my head and swapped it again. ><
So its 15% of 36 so like 30 magic resist without abyssal.
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On February 24 2011 09:41 locodoco wrote:
just read oddone's guide lol
his so different in writing
for any1 that read his guide plz do note that his quite an asshole in vent lol
User was temp banned for this post.
-.-;;
i was 2 days banned for calling oddone an asshole......................
OBVIOUS SARCASM IS NOT SO OBVIOUS
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Annie fits so well with my playstyle. I should really learn how to play something other than caster though, but her burst is just too lol against bad players at my level .
+ Show Spoiler +
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Random question, since this is kinda outdated.
Rush RoA or rush Deathcap? Cata -> DC -> Banshees? Base that on what?
Skill order? I assume QWQE Q > W > E. Or max W instead?
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On July 03 2011 16:40 r.Evo wrote:
Random question, since this is kinda outdated.
Rush RoA or rush Deathcap? Cata -> DC -> Banshees? Base that on what?
Skill order? I assume QWQE Q > W > E. Or max W instead?
I've been playing lots annie lately just cause she's really really powerful right now, and I never get cata/roa first.
I open boots + 3 pots or doran's ring, depends if I feel like I'll get harassment back or not.
Max W first imo, that's how I've always done it, I don't get E until later like the lvl 7-8 level, I like the added burst for level 6 combo
get a few(2-3) doran's rings and sorcerer boots depending on how your lanes going, or just get a NLR, then get Deathcap asap. I then mix it up, most often get a void staff, or get banshees, then I'll usually get the other, after that it's kind of up to you AP is good on her especially if you have a deathcap.
Sometimes I don't get banshees cause im so far ahead, and just get giant's belt instead, then I get abyssal specter, than i get rylai's if the game is really still going that long.
Also, I will get merc treads quite a bit of the time, i've never gotten ionian boots, but I think it's probably ok if you get void staff fast.
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RoA is useless item on annie, you dont need mana and the extra tiny bit of health wont help you if they focus you. You are a burst caster not a sustanied one so its better to do more dmg then have more health.
As the upper poster said - 2-3 dorans, sorc shoes, deathcap and then you chose. Zhyonas is good if they focus you alot since is the only real defensive item that can help you in that case.
I max q over w since it gives me better harass and i dont take a single point in E until both qw are maxed.
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IMO Cata -> Deathcap, RoA -> Deathcap and 2-3 Dorans -> Deathcap are all viable depending on the situation. Ive seen high ELO players go all of these paths.
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deathcap rush really bad. Too squishy. Annie has very low range (625) for an AP carry. Nearly every other AP carry has a lot larger range (kass 700, lux 1k, leblanc 700+, even veigar is 650, anivia is 650 on e and that's her lowest range, etcetc) Basically all have 650+ which already is larger range than annie. You NEED some hp on annie or you are going to get your little 5 year old rear raped.
Doran's and cata are fine. I prefer cata, and more prefer RoA for the extra hp before deathcap, but if you're doing really well deathcap after cata/dorans is never bad to increase your damage output. Her AP ratios aren't huge so usually magic pen is more important early on and you get that from runes + sorc anyway and that covers you for a long while. I'm not a fan of haunting guise even though technically it's good on annie. Fuck that item. Deathcap all the way.
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If you can, rush Deathcap. If you must, get Doran's.
Why the hell would a caster with 600+ range need more HP than a ranged DPS with 550 range? Because the AD has to stay in that range for the whole time and the caster can retreat while waiting for CDs? Oh wait, makes no sense.
Annie goes in, drops Tibbers and W, everyone's stunned while she pulls back a little and spams Q. No need for tons of HP there. If you don't get Deathcap early, you throw away most of your midgame burst potential.
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Im starting to lean towards dorans+cap. It isnt like you dont already die if they decide to focus you. Annies only real defense has always been to just hit a full combo and kill the other person before they kill you.
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Personally I prefer dorans over cata.
I dont find myself having mana problems on Annie honestly. I might get low early game if I combo someone at 6 - 11 but after that the mana per 5 per level runes and the dorans are plenty to keep you at reasonable levels at all times ime.
right now deathcap is too much stronger than other AP items and on most casters I play Im going for dc and void staff as my core items.
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And even with the impending cap nerf it will still be REALLY good. A passive that makes every item I buy afterwards better? Yes please.
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United States47024 Posts
IMO if you get RoA, it's because you're so fed that you can afford to delay your damage before DCap. charged RoA + DCap is pretty much just the most disgustingly efficient combo of AP items ever, but planning around having 7k worth of offensive items for important midgame fights isn't generally realistic, and for ~3.5k, having just DCap beats having just RoA for sure.
I think Cata vs Doran's stack is lane dependent. If you don't expect to get RoA, obviously Doran's Stack gives you a better mix of stats, but there are some lanes where you do want the health-based sustain from Cata because Annie doesn't really have any form of natural in-lane health sustain (though it may not be necessary--I'm sometimes stingy about pots, and it's possible that Doran's + mass pots is still better in those lanes if you mass pots hard enough).
On July 04 2011 00:00 red_b wrote:
I dont find myself having mana problems on Annie honestly. I might get low early game if I combo someone at 6 - 11 but after that the mana per 5 per level runes and the dorans are plenty to keep you at reasonable levels at all times ime.
I don't think anyone reasonably considers mp5/lvl runes useful over armor, HP/lvl, or AP/lvl anymore after the nerf.
EDIT: Running out the numbers, the gold value of just the health restore (measured based on potions) doesn't ever come out to match the 45 AP from 3 DRings, meaning if you don't consider the mana to be useful and only need the health restore from Cata, Dorans wins, even in lanes where you have to mass pot to sustain yourself. If you DO consider the mana proc useful, it's a tossup.
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Does anybody know what some known Annie players (Jiji/Regi etc.) run for runes and skillbuild on her?
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United States47024 Posts
Jiji uses his mass AP page (MPen marks, AP/lvl seals, AP/lvl glyphs, flat AP quints) on her, and goes QWQWQR, R>Q>W>E. He might have switched to W max first, but he was using max Q first last I checked.
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I've been playing a lot of Annie and though I'm certainly not good she absolutely wrecks people who are also not good. As others have said, boots plus 3pot is probably the best opening on her. I usually get 2-3 Doran's Rings after - I never get Cata. Then I try to wait and get my NLR to build into Deathcap. Once I have Deathcap I try to get Zhonya's Hourglass. If game still goes on after I have Zhonya's I build Banshee's Veil or Void Staff depending on the other team.
The reason I think you should go Zhonya's right after Deathcap is because you can get the NLR first for extra damage and honestly Flash + Tibbers stun combo means you can get the jump on all of the enemy team's squishies, blow your load, and then Zhonya's so your team can finish the rest of them off without you having to die. Your team might KS you some, but who cares? You just won the game for your team.
I saw some older posts and one more recent one talking about getting mana on her and it really isn't needed. You don't need mana in laning phase, if you run out you're doing it wrong. You don't need mana in teamfights because you do nothing more than pop three spells and then hope your team is competent enough to finish the enemy team off. I don't like RoA on her, delays Deathcap too much and you have less AP for lane phase as you won't get the 2-3 Drings.
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On July 05 2011 07:39 TheYango wrote:
Jiji uses his mass AP page (MPen marks, AP/lvl seals, AP/lvl glyphs, flat AP quints) on her, and goes QWQWQR, R>Q>W>E. He might have switched to W max first, but he was using max Q first last I checked.
Seems like it's still the endless question of maxing Q or W. Ive always maxed W, seems like W gives you better level 6 burst but Q better harass (you go oom pretty fast tho if you harass a lot with Q in my experience)
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I played with a wicked Annie the other day. Pretty sure she had a lot of CDR runes because she was stunning/ulting very often (without blue most of the time).
CDR quints/blues
MP5 yellows
MRPen reds
9/0/21
Doran's, boots, deathcap... win.
Is CDR worth grabbing on her?
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No, CDR generally not worth it unless you aim for 40% without Blue. Rather get some more nuking power.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 05 2011 22:02 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:39 TheYango wrote:
Jiji uses his mass AP page (MPen marks, AP/lvl seals, AP/lvl glyphs, flat AP quints) on her, and goes QWQWQR, R>Q>W>E. He might have switched to W max first, but he was using max Q first last I checked. Seems like it's still the endless question of maxing Q or W. Ive always maxed W, seems like W gives you better level 6 burst but Q better harass (you go oom pretty fast tho if you harass a lot with Q in my experience)
It goes hand in hand with the Cata vs. Doran's stack question IMO, since Cata gives up early game combo power, but the mana restore allows for extremely spammy Q harass play, particularly from levels 6-10.
It's also dependent on the lane. For example, Kassadin should never allow you to land a QW combo, as he can always either Q you back or R to safety from your lead-off stun. Since most engagements in lane will be Q trades, with W very unlikely to get used, maxing Q makes more sense there IMO.
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I like having w for that first drag fight/any ganks on you. Cant tell you how many times I've gotten double kills off of a jungle who underestimates how much damage w dishes out.
But for someone who thrives on aoe damage, having a maxed w for any drag fight means tibber+w will drop the entire enemy team to lower than half.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 06 2011 02:25 Two_DoWn wrote:
I like having w for that first drag fight/any ganks on you. Cant tell you how many times I've gotten double kills off of a jungle who underestimates how much damage w dishes out.
But for someone who thrives on aoe damage, having a maxed w for any drag fight means tibber+w will drop the entire enemy team to lower than half.
I think this reasoning was much stronger when Dragon was weaker, and junglers could threaten Dragon starting at level 4. As it stands now, the first Dragon often doesn't happen until past 15 minutes, and even then, often when the other team can't/won't fight for it. In many cases Dragon is just too much effort/not enough reward to be worth taking risks for.
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Only you still fight for dragon. Or gank bot. I just like having the ability to hurt more than one person VERY badly.
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United States47024 Posts
I think w max is ideal, but some lanes feel like they should play much easier with Q max, and I think that's worth the tradeoff. I definitely don't think its something you can cookie-cutter your way into every game--it depends on the lane opponent, team comp, and whether you're mid/top.
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is awesome32274 Posts
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This will probably draw their attention over to the incinerate bug too I guess. Then again this has probably been abused for too long now. It was entertaining at times pulling it off.
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On July 14 2011 12:51 Irave wrote:This will probably draw their attention over to the incinerate bug too I guess. Then again this has probably been abused for too long now. It was entertaining at times pulling it off.
Is it similar to the thing with Lee Sins E? Aka just doubletap real fast and hope you play on US servers? =P
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This explains a lot of things
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is awesome32274 Posts
On July 14 2011 13:05 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 12:51 Irave wrote:This will probably draw their attention over to the incinerate bug too I guess. Then again this has probably been abused for too long now. It was entertaining at times pulling it off. Is it similar to the thing with Lee Sins E? Aka just doubletap real fast and hope you play on US servers? =P
People say it has to be done with smartcast, but I haven't seen anything conclusive.
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On July 14 2011 13:12 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 13:05 r.Evo wrote:On July 14 2011 12:51 Irave wrote:This will probably draw their attention over to the incinerate bug too I guess. Then again this has probably been abused for too long now. It was entertaining at times pulling it off. Is it similar to the thing with Lee Sins E? Aka just doubletap real fast and hope you play on US servers? =P People say it has to be done with smartcast, but I haven't seen anything conclusive.
It is done partially with smartcast. It requires good ping and ideally a mouse with buttons. It happens so quickly the game thinks its legit.
I've been able to pull this off with Morde and Karma as well.
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its a variation of the lee sin bug I believe. Same principle.
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Someone said that if you dont use any other skills between tibbers cd's it will do it.
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So basically you smartcast tibbers twice really fast and it should do double damage?
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According to phreak smartcasting has nothing to do with the bug, and it is actually just random, although it could be him just throwing it out to prevent people from abusing it.
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Initially I thought Annie was a poor AP so I never used her.
But recently I realized that she is actually fairly decent. Her AA poke is ridiculous, her burst is decent, her stun is very good, and her farm is crazy.
Does she see any usage in pro-level games?
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On April 21 2012 09:08 Sufficiency wrote:
Initially I thought Annie was a poor AP so I never used her.
But recently I realized that she is actually fairly decent. Her AA poke is ridiculous, her burst is decent, her stun is very good, and her farm is crazy.
Does she see any usage in pro-level games?
If I recall correctly Froggen recently said she was one of the best un-used APs. I saw jiji dominate with her yesterday in a solo queue game (I feel like jiji can dominate with anyone though...).
Don't think she's seen any use in pro games though.
Edit: Apparently Annie is about to be played by Curse vs CLG.na lol
http://www.solomid.net/livestream.php?s=1533
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On April 21 2012 09:20 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 09:08 Sufficiency wrote:
Initially I thought Annie was a poor AP so I never used her.
But recently I realized that she is actually fairly decent. Her AA poke is ridiculous, her burst is decent, her stun is very good, and her farm is crazy.
Does she see any usage in pro-level games? If I recall correctly Froggen recently said she was one of the best un-used APs. I saw jiji dominate with her yesterday in a solo queue game (I feel like jiji can dominate with anyone though...). Don't think she's seen any use in pro games though. Edit: Apparently Annie is about to be played by Curse vs CLG.na lol http://www.solomid.net/livestream.php?s=1533
I am guessing the problem might be that her range is somewhat short and she requires Flash to initiate. I can't think of any other reason why she is supposedly so bad, though...
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On April 21 2012 09:55 overt wrote:There's a more up to date Annie guide on TL. I dunno how you saw this one but not the other one when you searched. In fact I thought this thread was locked. <_< You should check it out though, 'cause some cool guy made it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=245668
Truth be told I saw both in the search, but opted to bump this one because it has more posts >_<.
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Annie is an extremely strong ap
The last 4-5 released aps and the recent fotm has leaned towards very strong pushing aps which makes it difficult for annie to roam flexibly
But with proper jungle holding and support of annie's lane she is a potent roamer, strong laner, and an almost unparalleled initiation ability as an ap
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZC4oy.jpg)
