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A lot of nonsense being posted. Void staff is very much worth it, especially once their champs have merc treads + banshees.
I don't feel like explaining why if you're winning your lane that you should invest in items that give you a very immediate impact. Rod of ages is not an item catered towards mid-game. In terms of HP + AP it barely surpasses giant's belt + needlessly large rod, so you better justify needing that mana rather than just fight with blue buff. Rod is an item you'd get if you just want to passively dick around and farm some more, but it's not exactly optimal. An annie with Rod + Deathcap + Void staff is absolutely crap compared to Anivia with the same items.
The reason you'd get a haunting guise + a soul stealer when you're decently ahead in lane is because the entire enemy team would have to play around the fact that you have a soulstealer. That is to say, if they don't end up killing you in a teamfight, you probably just ended up with 6 stacks. It's low-risk, high-payoff strategy since Annie basically peaks at sorc boots + haunting guise anyways, but a charged mejai is an immediate "autowin".
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On February 24 2011 07:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Real way to play annie is ERWQ, ghost, run away//around from whoever is on you then go back in for more W and Q while your E is still up.
Flash in or out if necessary of course.
Though I guess if you're going like mpen/mejai's you won't have much mana at all until later on.
Ignite instead of Ghost.
Use E after R to get your second stun up earlier.
Of course you weave in and out while you still can, stay safe until your stun is up and then try to get another clutch W stun off.
As I said, it's tough to manage such a low manapool with such expensive spells. You should try to always enter fights at full mana.
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I always feel crippled without ghost and a lot of mana. Sure for you guys with 100% uptime bluebuff (or can predict when fights happen and time your bluebuff, assuming you're the only one who needs it) you don't need any mana, but at level 11 it takes about 500/700 base mana to use your burst so you can only get 1 more spell after that before you're oom. Even with bluebuff that's kinda sucky. I always prefer to rely on rod of ages//at least banshee's and not only on 1 set of burst so that if I survive then I can keep damaging them. You also get 630 health points after 10 minutes (I dunno if 30-35 minutes is lategame or not) which you can use to put in more damage.
As spines said, generally you're not a prime focus target since you can easily stay away from the AoE spam and still use all your spells and if someone chases you, you can hit them for the second stun.
I'm also terrible about timing my E, sometimes I forget it, sometimes I pop it too early, sometimes I pop it after I unload my burst when it's too late because I'm already under half HP (obviously more relevant lategame, at lvl 1-2 its more like an extra stun charge, but after that its a free chainmail+negatron cloak + some return fire damage which helps you burst down a ranged carry if they try to fight back)
I always play annie kind of tanky/anti-carry more as opposed to like AP carry do shitloads of damage upfront then run away like kassadin/aniv maybe its bad but I think its definitely viable.
Also, its not like
A: YOU WIN IN MIDGAME
B: BUILD DEATHCAP
There's a gentle curve to winning. You can go gain an advantage in midgame while still having a strong lategame. If you built lategame and do poorly in the midgame it might not be worth it. I don't think you should break the game down into 1's and 0's like that.
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Why anyone would skip Catalyst is behind me...
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On February 24 2011 08:30 Yiruru wrote:
Why anyone would skip Catalyst is behind me...
at their elo people pick 4 carries and people with no laning power. Annie rushing magic pen/ap one shots everything.
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On February 24 2011 08:30 Yiruru wrote:
Why anyone would skip Catalyst is behind me...
Not skip. Delay.
When you think you can get away with Haunting Guise before Catalyst (basically when you think that you don't need the lanestaying power and don't expect to have a real big teamfight very soon), you can just get that extra bit of burst.
Guise gives you HP as well, so for short fights it offers about the same survivability as Cata. You trade mana for damage. Which basically means that you concentrate your damage on less spells. In longer fights, Cata probably deals more damage because you will get to cast 2+ extra spells (don't wanna calculate that), but if you only get that one combo off before your enemies flash away or you have to get out yourself then it's probably worth it.
I sometimes get an early Mana Crystal and then finish Sorcs + Guise before Cata.
The other thing is of course to delay Cata for Mejai's, but I would only do that if I know that I'm going to beat the crap out of my enemies.
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just read oddone's guide lol
his so different in writing
for any1 that read his guide plz do note that his quite an asshole in vent lol
User was temp banned for this post.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:11 spinesheath wrote:
So basically the core is for me: Sorcs, Guise, Cata. Items I like to get after that: Banshee's, RoA, Void Staff, Mejai's. Not a big fan of Deathcap, I like to tank with the rest of my items.
What's the point of having 50-60 flat pen that early? People aren't going to beeline Mercs that fast, so you're going to be making use of like 40 of it tops.
Actually, I don't see how you could ever back at 6, and make the decision to return to lane with Sorcs over finishing Cata. It's like, either you get cata and can herp derp around and still win lane, or you get Sorcs, and maybe win the lane if they're dumb and let you combo them to death.
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Or I come back with Sorcs, throw them a Q or 2, and suddenly they are in danger of getting killed by RQW Ignite. Or my jungler joins the fight, instant kill. With Flash and Annie's range, once your enemy is low enough to be bursted down, you essentially have him zoned or killed. If they are not "dumb" in this situation, they sit at their tower and hope for their jungler to help out.
Obviously if your enemies sit at 30 MRes you don't get Sorcs + Guise. However, when you are up against Annie and you know you can beat her if you survive her burst - wouldn't you get a Null Magic Mantle or a Ruby Crystal early?
Also when your enemy can harrass/farm because of longer range or is too tanky to be bursted down, you don't go for the early MPen.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 24 2011 09:41 locodoco wrote:
just read oddone's guide lol
his so different in writing
for any1 that read his guide plz do note that his quite an asshole in vent lol
lol
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Finding the need for earlier zhonya when brawlers start running rampant,
discuss.
Something like
Catalyst -> Sorc -> Guise -> NLR -> Finish Banshee/Zhonya.
Dominant mid-game magic pen + just enough AP from NLR and then straight into very efficient tank items. Zhonya will definitely let you get 1 more Q out, and the best thing you can do as annie is getting out a second AoE stun in teamfights. She`s pretty boss at cleanup if your team wins.
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United States47024 Posts
Just did out some of the math on Guise vs. Rod. The difference between the two is 20 MPen vs 40 AP. Assuming Annie at level 10 with rank 5 W, rank 3 Q, rank 1 W and rank 1 R, you have a burst of 695+1.9xAP damage. Assuming your only additional AP comes from the 20 AP common to both Rod and Guise, this gives you burst of 733 damage before factoring the item-specific benefits. 40 AP gives you 76 additional damage, bringing your pre-MRes damage up to 809, which is a 10% increase in damage. From here on out, I'm assuming a runepage that runs MPen marks/glyphs/quints and Sorc Shoes for a pre-Guise flat pen of 39 Mpen.
~50 MRes is the first breakeven point where the two items do identical damage (e.g. you make use of 10 MPen from Guise, resulting in a ~10% increase in damage). The second breakeven point is at ~140 MRes (you make use of all 20 MPen from Guise, but going from 120 effective MR to 100 effective MR is a 10% damage increase). Guise's maximum effectiveness is at ~60 MRes. The MPen is dead weight until 39 MR, at which point its utility grows for the next 20 points of MR, then dropping off for the next 80 MR.
A squishy target with only Mercs as an MR source is basically at the breakeven point (55 MR, which puts the damage differential of your entire combo at ~30 damage). A tank with Mercs, Negatron, MR/lvl glyphs (assuming that said tank is at level 10 like the Annie in question), and 6 MRes from the defensive tree is also somewhat near the breakeven point (125 MR, which puts the damage differential of your entire combo at only ~6 damage).
It's up to you whether you think the short-term benefits of Guise outweighs Rod's growth. Personally, I think Rod is better unless you're seeing targets significantly within the range of Guise's superiority--at conventional MR values, Rod is going to provide about the same damage immediately, and way more damage later on. Of course, Guise may still be a reasonable buy in addition to Rod of Ages.
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Annie's primary targets typically will not get past 120 MRes (unless you are the only threat on your team). Therefore it's not really reasonable to say that Guise only has short-term benefits.
That aside, Annie needs to abuse her strong early/midgame. RoA doesn't do that.
Imo it's really a decision you have to make again every single game. Can you burst people down if you get a Guise? Can you burst them down no matter what you get? Do you need the HP/Mana more than burst?
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United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2011 18:34 spinesheath wrote:
Annie's primary targets typically will not get past 120 MRes (unless you are the only threat on your team). Therefore it's not really reasonable to say that Guise only has short-term benefits.
That aside, Annie needs to abuse her strong early/midgame. RoA doesn't do that.
Imo it's really a decision you have to make again every single game. Can you burst people down if you get a Guise? Can you burst them down no matter what you get? Do you need the HP/Mana more than burst?
It has short term benefits in the sense that, while her primary targets do not typically get super-high MR, they likely will get to the point where Guise falls behind Void Staff--once you get around to getting Void Staff, Guise becomes way worse.
As an aside, given the way the Poppy thread was turning out, I was very tempted to simply write something along the lines of "TheOddOne suggests Rod-before-Guise and I've never seen him get Guise-before-Rod--therefore you're wrong," just to troll you, but I decided against it. 
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From wrong thread:
On that note ezpz, does annie beat corki in lane? I played a 1v1 yesterday with goshawk (he's like, 1850 EU?) while scip and skies were like testing mundo vs irelia top and basically he went super aggressive. I was running tank runes so we were both trying to get auto hits and Q's off before creeps even spawned. Basically at level 3 I flashed in on him at 223hp and he flashed out of my W (but took my Q) and barely won. But I get the feeling that if I play passive, I'm going to get owned by his bombs. Is this accurate? Normally I'm thinking that I am way too aggressive as annie before level 3. (as when you have lvl 2 Q and lvl 1 W is usually around when you have higher burst than the other champs, assuming you dodge their skillshots, next threshold is level 6, hopefully you were able to comfortably back once by then.) Also, I tend to make a mix of Q and basic attacks to last hit. Normally Q is not an option to harass them since its pretty long range, except when creeps mostly high hp and your stun is up//close, but perhaps its better to use basic attacks most of the time and keep your stun close to ready or ready just so they can't harass you while its on CD? This way will net me personally about like 75% of the CS or something because last hitting primiarily with basic attacks is hard 
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w>q will help all annie MUs
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Q is much easier to last hit with and harass with so I QWQWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
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What item do people start with on annie these days?
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Sapphire+2 pots or Doran's Shield; can't see anything else being seriously viable.
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On February 26 2011 18:01 TheYango wrote:
Just did out some of the math on Guise vs. Rod. The difference between the two is 20 MPen vs 40 AP. Assuming Annie at level 10 with rank 5 W, rank 3 Q, rank 1 W and rank 1 R, you have a burst of 695+1.9xAP damage. Assuming your only additional AP comes from the 20 AP common to both Rod and Guise, this gives you burst of 733 damage before factoring the item-specific benefits. 40 AP gives you 76 additional damage, bringing your pre-MRes damage up to 809, which is a 10% increase in damage. From here on out, I'm assuming a runepage that runs MPen marks/glyphs/quints and Sorc Shoes for a pre-Guise flat pen of 39 Mpen.
~50 MRes is the first breakeven point where the two items do identical damage (e.g. you make use of 10 MPen from Guise, resulting in a ~10% increase in damage). The second breakeven point is at ~140 MRes (you make use of all 20 MPen from Guise, but going from 120 effective MR to 100 effective MR is a 10% damage increase). Guise's maximum effectiveness is at ~60 MRes. The MPen is dead weight until 39 MR, at which point its utility grows for the next 20 points of MR, then dropping off for the next 80 MR.
A squishy target with only Mercs as an MR source is basically at the breakeven point (55 MR, which puts the damage differential of your entire combo at ~30 damage). A tank with Mercs, Negatron, MR/lvl glyphs (assuming that said tank is at level 10 like the Annie in question), and 6 MRes from the defensive tree is also somewhat near the breakeven point (125 MR, which puts the damage differential of your entire combo at only ~6 damage).
It's up to you whether you think the short-term benefits of Guise outweighs Rod's growth. Personally, I think Rod is better unless you're seeing targets significantly within the range of Guise's superiority--at conventional MR values, Rod is going to provide about the same damage immediately, and way more damage later on. Of course, Guise may still be a reasonable buy in addition to Rod of Ages.
- Building RoA uses up a catalyst, that not only can still HELP you at this stage when you level up, but will eventually be used for banshee that you probably should have as annie since you really don't want to be a possible initation target while still trying to be an initation threat yourself.
If you build RoA you have to keep in mind this delays your banshee's by 1000g, lowers your damage output for quite a while because of no haunting guise, AND doesn't even give that much more effective mana considering catalyst level ups. Late-game Annie doesn't have any mana problems, and she can always grab blue buff since CDR helps her a whole lot if she's fairly tanky.
It also costs something like 300-400g more than haunting guise? If you build up from catalyst that is
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EPT
