EPT[Champion] Urgot - Page 2
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
old post, old info, who cares ^^ | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
I dont really recommend trying to go for atmas AND manamune, its really hard to eke out the maximum efficiency of both with only 3 item slots. I'd recommend sticking just to 1 and trying to make that work, i chose manamune, simply because i felt frozen heart is such a strong item on urgot, but in reality its much more of a preference thing, i like it alot for the cdr and aura, but at the same time, randuins fulfills most of the same points except it has better synergy with atmas.If you were to go an atmas build, it would probably be the same as mine, except replace heart with randuins, since bveil and locket are stong picks for both mm and atmas. Also, i'm considering moving locket up the priority list since its so damn strong on urgot. You actually regain insane amounts of hp with q, its kinda absurd. I think using urgot on 3s is a really cool idea tho, i havnt really thought about it before, but i do see how he would be pretty strong there. edit: the only thing i forgot about is that i feel like crit is kinda a useless stat on urgot, which was another reason i went for manamune over atmas. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
This was at level 11. For IE I assumed arpen reds/quints, BC/Starks I assumed flat AD reds/quints and 2 stacks of BC. I also assumed that E had hit the target (using 51 armor as base). 3xdorans/IE Before Armor / After Armor (6 armor) Autoattack DPS: 225 / 212 (includes possible crits) Q Damage: 278 / 262 Total DPS: 364 / 343 Starks/BC (2 stacks) Before Armor / After Armor (-13 armor) Autoattack DPS: 209 / 236 Q Damage: 272 / 307 Total dps: 345 / 389 From what I can tell, then, doran's/IE is less situational and scales a lot better with green pot (an important advantage), and crits can be crazy. BC requires a few auto attacks on the target before it can surpass IE, but if you get them into the heavy negatives your dps goes through the roof (you've still got a potential -36 armor there). The BC opening also could have a much stronger early game since AD performs better early and synergizes with his E a lot more than 25 armor pen, though you'd be short a doran's item. In general though, since I don't play Urgot, I'm not sure how you'd weigh his auto attacks vs his Q and how you'd play an Urgot this squishy in a mid-game team fight, considering you have absolutely no defensive items whatsover. You might be able to get away with BC before you start getting focused, but right after that I feel like you'd really need to start piling on the defense. Also, anyone ever thought of using sheen? Sheen has a 2 second cooldown, Q is 2 seconds or less and spammy... I dunno, it sounds like fun. I might buy Urgot and try stuff out depending on Irelia. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
i think the reason i dislike ie/lw build on urgot so much is that A) your q is effectively half of your dmg output and crits dont apply to it and B) urgot's autoattack range is kinda pathetic so that you really cant take full advantage of all that ie/lw has to offer means that it feels so suboptimal. Also, i know you're not necessarily endorsing it, but i feel like urgot doesnt really benefit too much from dblade stacking, simply due to how much of a heavyweight he is in lane. Of all the ad types that could benefit from dblade stacking, i think urgot comes at the bottom of the pool, just because if you're ever put in the position that you need them to get an edge in lane, you're doing it wrong. urgot is such a bully, i still have yet to lose a 1v1 lane and rarely lose 2v2 lanes, despite playing against players i know are better than me. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:13 barbsq wrote: i honestly cant tell you why i disliked sheen way back when i tried it. i think i'll revisit that sometime later today when patch comes out, esp since last time i tried it was pre triforce buff ^.^ i think the reason i dislike ie/lw build on urgot so much is that A) your q is effectively half of your dmg output and crits dont apply to it and B) urgot's autoattack range is kinda pathetic so that you really cant take full advantage of all that ie/lw has to offer means that it feels so suboptimal. Also, i know you're not necessarily endorsing it, but i feel like urgot doesnt really benefit too much from dblade stacking, simply due to how much of a heavyweight he is in lane. Of all the ad types that could benefit from dblade stacking, i think urgot comes at the bottom of the pool, just because if you're ever put in the position that you need them to get an edge in lane, you're doing it wrong. urgot is such a bully, i still have yet to lose a 1v1 lane and rarely lose 2v2 lanes, despite playing against players i know are better than me. I tend not to build any (primary) AD items, only those that offer it as a secondary or co-stat like bruta/manamune etc. specifically for the reasons outlined earlier. Hell if anything I'd go so far as to say Q should be 75% of damage output if done correctly (unless you have sheen/triforce) Also I LOVE Triforce on Urgot. It is great for knocking down towers if you rush it (which I will admit I have stopped doing in favor of Bruta/Frozen heart after rushing manamune), though maybe getting Sheen after Bruta would work then only upgrading it if the game goes on that long...? I also tried locket Urgot and yes the regen is insane, but I didn't find it was helping me in teamfights at all, rather it sort of works like lifesteal after a teamfight where everyone goes off to lick their wounds/farm minions to get health back. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:57 WaveofShadow wrote: I tend not to build any (primary) AD items, only those that offer it as a secondary or co-stat like bruta/manamune etc. specifically for the reasons outlined earlier. Hell if anything I'd go so far as to say Q should be 75% of damage output if done correctly (unless you have sheen/triforce) Also I LOVE Triforce on Urgot. It is great for knocking down towers if you rush it (which I will admit I have stopped doing in favor of Bruta/Frozen heart after rushing manamune), though maybe getting Sheen after Bruta would work then only upgrading it if the game goes on that long...? I also tried locket Urgot and yes the regen is insane, but I didn't find it was helping me in teamfights at all, rather it sort of works like lifesteal after a teamfight where everyone goes off to lick their wounds/farm minions to get health back. I run locket over banshee's when I'm picking up armor and mr on other items and looking specifically to cut corners on gold, as it gives you much more hp/mana for gold than banshee's. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + note: obviously there's no reason not to mix and match from the two groups but this setup is nicely even in gold value, both groups are highly selfsynergistic, and I can't see a build incorporating Locket AND Manamune. The strong points of locket are that it gives you amazing staying power, builds from catalyst (also amazing staying power), actually gives you a source of hp regen and allows for much spamminess. The strong points of Manamune are the large manapool, allowing for spamminess, the big early damage boost that keeps growing all game, and that Tear builds from a great opening item on Urgot. I dunno. Urgot charges a tear fast enough that maybe he could pick one up after Locket, but I feel like Tear alone isn't helpful after locket and 4k gold with only 450 hp of survivability is kinda crappy on someone so naturally squishy as Urgot. The BEAR build gives an early tear for a large mana pool, building nicely out of a strong opening item on Urgot (Meki), then +20 Attack Damage +2% of max mana for 1k gold - that's a lot of damage when Urgot needs it. Opening Locket prevents Urgot from starting Meki, though he CAN rush a Catalyst which is stronger in lane than Tear. This trades the +1k manapool for +290 Health and a crazy heal on each levelup. The upgrade to locket leaves urgot with ~500 less mana and ~50 less damage (depending on how charged the Tear is) than manamune, but 430 health more, a heal/mregen aura, and a passive that amounts to in practice around 100 hp5 and 40 mp5. Also 10% CDR, which is pretty nice - that's 3 Qs per E instead of 2. Randuin versus Banshee: Randuin's gives 150 less hp, no mana, and no MR, but 90 armor, 25 hp5, a mediocre passive and a sweet active. The active synergizes fantastically with urgot's ult (+130 armor and mr, so if you swap into the middle of their team you slow them all for 4 seconds) and you pick up another 15% CDR here. Banshee's passive is useful, though not critical, on Urgot. It'll block the occasional spell, make it a little harder to interrupt your ult, and generally make you harder to take down. The mana also gives an additional 8 damage, putting this build ~70 damage ahead but 25% cdr behind. I think Randuin's builds out of the better item here, Locket having lost some of its value at this point and HoG being imba as ever. Atma's gives the first build some sorely needed damage - around 60 depending on your level, masteries, and fort pot. It's also 45 more armor. Frozen Heart finally gets this build some CDR (disclaimer this order of build isn't necessary or anything either this is just a generalization for simplicity you can get neg cloak then glacial shroud or whatever you want) and the 500 mana is 10 more damage. The passive is another pain for any DPS you might face. I dunno, I like my CDR on Urgot. I think the only real "choice" is Manamune vs Locket opening, and the rest is up to gameflow. Also I've played maybe 10 games with Urgot all on a smurf so don't take me 100% seriously. | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
i now fully realize i do not use "o shiiiii" summoner spells well, so i now go Teleport/Clairvoyance clairvoyance helps me not die to stupid shit, and if people hide in the brush, i can clairvoyance and make sure i land the first e with w active, and do some damage (or just general "hey teammate, i bet your gonna die to whats hiding right HERE, so ill warn you the obvious way lol") new item build meki + 2 hp pots tear of the goddess level 1 boots manamune phage level 2 boots (based on opponents) frozen mallet MR or Armor item (based on opponents) atma's impaler basically the item theme is eliminate mana issues -> add some damage -> go tank/utility mode as you become less relevant damage wise -> atma's because you have enough hp to make it make sense spell build: eqqeqrqw then priority r>q>w>e big thing i noticed going e first instead of q its 100 damage out the gate, its cheap on mana, and it doesnt obstruct with creeps (so you can play safer) 100 is notable damage, and you can just keep your mana in pocket for level 3 and beyond, or go hard at level 2 if you notice his hp like... under 200 (q is 60 a pop, youll get two of those off, plus the 100) add in teammate harass and you can overpower a lane quite fast (and safely) as long as you stay patient until at least level 2 (side note im sure im lowish elo, i dont play a ton and aint level 30 yet, so grain of salt yada yada) | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On November 23 2010 23:37 SaetZero wrote: update on me with urgot ^^ i now fully realize i do not use "o shiiiii" summoner spells well, so i now go Teleport/Clairvoyance clairvoyance helps me not die to stupid shit, and if people hide in the brush, i can clairvoyance and make sure i land the first e with w active, and do some damage (or just general "hey teammate, i bet your gonna die to whats hiding right HERE, so ill warn you the obvious way lol") new item build meki + 2 hp pots tear of the goddess level 1 boots manamune phage level 2 boots (based on opponents) frozen mallet MR or Armor item (based on opponents) atma's impaler basically the item theme is eliminate mana issues -> add some damage -> go tank/utility mode as you become less relevant damage wise -> atma's because you have enough hp to make it make sense spell build: eqqeqrqw then priority r>q>w>e big thing i noticed going e first instead of q its 100 damage out the gate, its cheap on mana, and it doesnt obstruct with creeps (so you can play safer) 100 is notable damage, and you can just keep your mana in pocket for level 3 and beyond, or go hard at level 2 if you notice his hp like... under 200 (q is 60 a pop, youll get two of those off, plus the 100) add in teammate harass and you can overpower a lane quite fast (and safely) as long as you stay patient until at least level 2 (side note im sure im lowish elo, i dont play a ton and aint level 30 yet, so grain of salt yada yada) A couple things I feel I should mention. Frozen Mallet is redundant as with enough CDR (hell, even without) you can have his shield constantly up by midgame and always be slowing people with ANY damage, as opposed to just autoattack damage (Q doesn't apply on-hit effects.) The health is sorta nice but the damage is meh. As for your skill order, I use qe for lvls 1 and 2, then r>q>w>e. The shield is amazing for preventing counter harassment in lane, and the damage on e is pretty mediocre unless you have AP, which to be honest is something I never bothered to try. Urgot is all about spammable Q as early as you can get it because it hits REALLY hard and really fast with armor Pen. | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
as far as first q or first e maybe it changes at 30, but my q hits for 68, my e hits for 100 e is easier to land with creeps around q is easier to land in open ground e hits the side brush (since i generally dual lane) safely q has more potential dps at the cost of more potential mana used e can hit guys tower hugging way easier than q i just like being able to constantly chip some hp here, some hp there, and just keep up a reasonable, mana efficient harass with e until level 3 then i have mana and i can bring the thunder ^^ do the numbers shift that hard towards making q better damage per mana than e with a good runebook at 30? | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Giant's Belt is 1k gold for 500 hp. Frozen MAllet is 3k gold for 20 damage. Pickaxe is 975 gold for 25 damage. Mallet is horribly inefficient in terms of base stats. MOST of what you pay for is the slow. Try Belt/Atmas for almost the same price. | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
But when you put it that way, ill look around ^^ Guess i got a little more of the "need to complete all items all the time!" | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
do the numbers shift that hard towards making q better damage per mana than e with a good runebook at 30? In short, yes, but not exactly how you mean. When you buy mp5/lvl seals, your early skills become much more spammable, especially with a meki start. Mana is not even an issue, rather it becomse 'how much damage can I do in a specific amount of time.' Don't fall into the trap of E being 'easier to hit,' because that becomes a crutch for you not to perfect the Q skillshot. Ask Ezreal players how they do it. | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
ill hafta switch the method when i get the seals to support it | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
comes highly recommended, ive started getting it first after manamune | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
I keep trying to go back to locket, I really do, I just find I have no use for it at all with my build. I also wonder why there is no talk of buffing Urgot at all even though Riot KNOWS he is bottom tier. (Honestly I think I'll be sad if they do buff him because then other people will actually use him and I won't be unique anymore.) I would recommend people give him a try though. It is honestly a LOT of fun wrecking people during the laning phase, and on a personal note it's really helping me learn how to transfer my early-game advantage into late game teamfights/barons/whatnot. In other news, I think I'm going to try the insane-o ArPen build tonight for fun. I'll just have to be a lot less aggressive than usual since I won't have Frozen Heart/Banshees/GA/Tri to beef me up. UPDATE: Ok, tried the ArPen build with Locket to round me out. I can't say I noticed myself doing much more damage than with Bruta/Triforce/MM, and if anything I was much squishier. To be fair there were a lot of squishies in the game, and 130 ArPen won't matter too much when you've only got 40 to begin with. I may have to give it another go another time. | ||
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R04R
United States1631 Posts
I also tried stacking D-ring for his E but I wasn't too successful with that and reverted back to the standard build mid-game. Wasn't enough mana I guess. After standard mananume frozen heart veil and maybe locket, would archangels be good for him? His E has a decent AP ratio and his shield scales off AP also. Anyone want to test it out before I do? I'm not gonna play anymore today. I know his early game is crucial and delaying mananume for early game damage is bad, but is opening dorans ring worth it? His E gets a really early boost with it, and the mana regen isn't too bad if you're running mana regen yellows blues and masteries. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
In related news I have another build to try sometime soon which is somewhat related to this: It seems a popular build with free Urgot week has been Locket --> Spirit Visage. I've seen all sorts of stuff too from Atma's to LW to even Rylai's. Apparently the slow on his shield isn't good enough for people so they want a mix of AP health and AD. (And apparently even though Q is physical damage the Rylai's slow DOES work with it.) I don't none of this really makes sense to me aside from Locket, which I've never liked over Manamune in the first place, and building MM + Locket seems extremely redundant. Any thoughts? It HAS been fun stomping other new Urgot players all day though. Bad at skillshots + no idea how to use R = win. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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