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On August 15 2015 06:21 AdrianHealeyy wrote:
The new 12-worker start has created new cheesy builds.
Triple rax from terran, proxy gates from p, 12 pool.
It's all still there.
How do you proxy gate when your probe to build the proxy pylon will be half the way to your opponents natural if not closer to you? Triple Rax from terran has always been "the plat build" which is really really bad and the economy changes won't help that, rightfully so. And I've never seen a 12 Pool in LotV accomplish anything at all. It probably even sucks against Nexus first I could imagine. And if not, it definitely will suck against normal gateway builds since they come so extremely fast.
You both build your buildings faster, but the rush distance doesn't get shorter. Also scouting becomes relatively cheaper aswell.
I'm not even complaining about this, since those cheeses weren't fun to play against to begin with. Sure there are other cheeses now, especially with the new units, but I don't think they are comparable to proxy gates/2 rax/ early pools.
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On August 15 2015 06:26 AdrianHealeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 06:25 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 15 2015 06:24 AdrianHealeyy wrote:On August 15 2015 06:22 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I thought that, at least in the 12 pool case, it no longer punishes like a 6-10 pool used to 12 pool beats 17 hatch pretty comfortably. (Or I'd like to think that: otherwise I am just bad.) I haven't tried 12 pool against FFE, because P don't reliable FFE anymore. My response is now double extractor trick, 16 hatch, 15 pool, 14 gas, 13 overlord. From my experience, it's a counter to 12 pool and you aren't far behind from 17 hatch. I'm talking outside the mirror match up Fair enough, but 6/7 pool isn't particularly strong in hots/wol against terran either... Against P, it's only reasonable when P goes FFE. If they wall of, you nearly almost lost the game.
While that's true that still adds to the game in a way that the 12 worker start removes for seemingly no good reason. I'd personally really like to see blizzard let the community play with the same economy system but HotS starting workers. Its one thing to say "we tested it, its not that cool" and letting the community see it in action. Maybe I'd actually believe them
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On August 15 2015 06:04 AdrianHealeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 05:53 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The biggest problame is going to be that Zerg will have another 6-8 supply stuck in queens.
But it could be fixed by lowering the supply cost of some units... like roaches and BL and Ultralisk.
I mean Zerg has no god damn 1 supply unit. We do. The drone.
LOL yeah... i was talking about a real 1 supply unit to battle like hydra was in BW
On August 15 2015 06:06 ROOTFayth wrote:protoss and terran don't have half a supply unit 
Right cuz they are the swarm right ?
Man Terran Bio is more swarmy then Zerg, its that bad.
Sometime i miss BW so much... like all games it had some problems but it wasnt this stupid design.
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On August 15 2015 03:34 Energizer wrote:
...especially for zerg since they're going to have an even tougher time remaxing after a fight without as much of a larva bank. May as well let zerg have a larger max army to help with trades.
BINGO.
Zerg will just be forced to do a lot more hatcheries to compensate for the larvae loss.
How about leaving autocast for 2 larva, but also allow inject, and inject adds 1 more larva for those who feel the need for it?
Right cuz they are the swarm right ?
Man Terran Bio is more swarmy then Zerg, its that bad.
Sometime i miss BW so much... like all games it had some problems but it wasnt this stupid design.
Also, a thousand times THIS!!! Zerg has lost its capability to "swarm" effectively a long time ago somewhere between the tons of nerfs and "balancing patches". Im learning some terran nowadays precisely for the swarming factor. Zerg has been reduced to a struggle to survive in both early game and late game.
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Yet again, DK disappoints a lot of the community because it feels like he does not care about the "issues" we are really concerned about... Macro Mechanics? We are really getting ahead of ourselves, why not fix things like the overlapping disruptor, viper etc? And please blizzard really give thought to the economic models that have been proposed. A lot of people put work into creating them because they have clearly seen a problem with LOTV current econ system, a problem a lot of people have seen and are beginning to get hopeless because we are starting to believe you dont take this game seriously since you have done nothing on this matter...
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On August 15 2015 06:27 Obsi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 06:21 AdrianHealeyy wrote:
The new 12-worker start has created new cheesy builds.
Triple rax from terran, proxy gates from p, 12 pool.
It's all still there. How do you proxy gate when your probe to build the proxy pylon will be half the way to your opponents natural if not closer to you? Triple Rax from terran has always been "the plat build" which is really really bad and the economy changes won't help that, rightfully so. And I've never seen a 12 Pool in LotV accomplish anything at all. It probably even sucks against Nexus first I could imagine. And if not, it definitely will suck against normal gateway builds since they come so extremely fast. You both build your buildings faster, but the rush distance doesn't get shorter. Also scouting becomes relatively cheaper aswell. I'm not even complaining about this, since those cheeses weren't fun to play against to begin with. Sure there are other cheeses now, especially with the new units, but I don't think they are comparable to proxy gates/2 rax/ early pools.
Agreed. While it's true cheeses have led to some of the most awesome games in sc2 most of the time it just leads to plain BO losses. I just hate BO losses because they have nothing to do with skill and it comes all down to luck if it works or not.
If I want to watch a game where the winner is decided by luck I watch rock/paper/scissors and not sc2.
Something like PartinG vs Life g7 where PartinG only lost because he lost the rock/paper/scissors game shouldn't happen in sc2.
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On August 15 2015 06:16 Obsi wrote:
sooo... Zergs are going to need pretty much 2/3 Macro Hatcheries per 3 mining bases? Just letting them spawn more larvae all the time would be a way better change imo. Though it would force you to constantly build units/drones instead of a more "in waves" way. Which would probably not even make macro much easier at all. But just the requirement of macro hatches pretty much from 2 Base on seems really odd. Will also require you to build more queens that wont even be able to creep spread with at least every second 25 energy.
The idea of removing macro mechanics could've been nice and everything. But that half ass way without thinking it through (at least it seems like that) is just disappointing and bad. The 900 Mins on half of the patches also still feels wrong.
Speeding up the game with 12 Workers and destroying cheesy proxy builds and early pools? Fine whatever, doesnt change that much in the end. But this ressource change still seems odd.
It's hard to see LotV becoming a great game in like 2.5 months of beta left at most.
8 hatches with 6 queens, it will be the optimal number, it would mean the production of 5 bases in the current patch.
The pros.
- more creep spread
- more attention on other tasks
- if someone snipes a hatch it wont kill the economy since you already have a mcro hatch right next to it, guess ost people will go for drones now then sniping a base.
The cons.
- even less supply when this was a zerg problem already
- less production in early-mid game
- tech switches might happen only 1 as a suprise but never again will you see more tech switches then that.
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The cons.
- even less supply when this was a zerg problem already
- less production in early-mid game
Exactly, these two critical points worry me the most out of everything.
I feel like they simply dont calculate the impact of these changes all the way through.
Early game was already tough, with less larva it will be alt-f4 -> uninstall; i would need additional macro hatcheries to compensate, and no opponent with a functional brain would allow the time for that to happen.
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On August 15 2015 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 06:27 Obsi wrote:On August 15 2015 06:21 AdrianHealeyy wrote:
The new 12-worker start has created new cheesy builds.
Triple rax from terran, proxy gates from p, 12 pool.
It's all still there. How do you proxy gate when your probe to build the proxy pylon will be half the way to your opponents natural if not closer to you? Triple Rax from terran has always been "the plat build" which is really really bad and the economy changes won't help that, rightfully so. And I've never seen a 12 Pool in LotV accomplish anything at all. It probably even sucks against Nexus first I could imagine. And if not, it definitely will suck against normal gateway builds since they come so extremely fast. You both build your buildings faster, but the rush distance doesn't get shorter. Also scouting becomes relatively cheaper aswell. I'm not even complaining about this, since those cheeses weren't fun to play against to begin with. Sure there are other cheeses now, especially with the new units, but I don't think they are comparable to proxy gates/2 rax/ early pools. Agreed. While it's true cheeses have led to some of the most awesome games in sc2 most of the time it just leads to plain BO losses. I just hate BO losses because they have nothing to do with skill and it comes all down to luck if it works or not. If I want to watch a game where the winner is decided by luck I watch rock/paper/scissors and not sc2. Something like PartinG vs Life g7 where PartinG only lost because he lost the rock/paper/scissors game shouldn't happen in sc2.
But that's just a matter of opinion. Everything in the game has a risk, that's an inherent part of a real time strategy game. There's ALWAYS a cost (assuming a balanced game). Two rax/proxy gate/6-10 pool all come with their own share of risks. Parting by every right should have lost because Life read him, he risked it all knowing Parting wouldn't. Mind games and strategies like that are how champions are made and in mine and many other's opinions, are an integral part of the game.
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I have to say I'm pretty sure they will give up on removing macro mechanics if it turns out to be a catastrophe, which is possible. The game is working well with them.
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It's also way too early to talk about the balance implications of it. We know there are going to be massive balance implications all the way up and down the game in every matchup, but it affects so many things in so many ways there's no way to really know what's going to happen for sure without some rigorous testing.
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Hopefully they patch after Battlegrounds, anyone think this is probable?
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On August 15 2015 07:02 GGzerG wrote:
Hopefully they patch after Battlegrounds, anyone think this is probable?
They told on page 4 of that thread the patch is comming Thursday 20 (OUCH)
I will be farming gold or playing StarBow until the next weekend then
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Warping-in at a Pylon takes 16 seconds.
If a Pylon’s power radius is touching a Warp Gate or a Nexus, the color of the power radius changes, and warp-ins take 2 seconds.
Multiple Pylons can be affected by the same Nexus or Warp Gate.
The Warp Prism’s power radius will be the stronger version, and units will only take 2 seconds to warp-in.
Protoss Aggressive warpins nerfed? That is a great step in the right direction. So much of the game is balanced around that mechanic that it could change things hugely. My actually start giving this a go again. Was my biggest balance complaint for the longest time.
Hated that you had to be so safe or perfect scouting to avoid protoss all ins every game. I would guess now they will send some unit buffs protoss way.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Don't really understand why protoss research times should be reduced because chrono is gone
Because they have added time to the important researches over and over and over again due to anticipating them being chrono boosted ~4-8x in all ins centered around them. Blink, Warpgate etc had to be slow when chrono'd, so they'll be really really really slow without chain chrono on them.
Also, with the game starting at 12 workers, way less of the research time is buried in the "people are just getting up economy and doing nothing significant anyway" time period - the upgrades like warpgate and blink were coming in comparitively too late even with chrono.
With the inject change, i'm guessing that at some stages of the game, people will opt for just dropping hatcheries rather than queens. Queens are good for defense, but no longer hugely efficient for production
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I'm baffled that Zergs are complaining about this patch. Your lives are going to be so much easier, and you'll have to build slightly more unit producing structures *gasp*. Yours is the only change that is a nerf, not a removal. And it's not even really a nerf. You'll probably end up with about the same larva, or more, for substantially less APM. Yet the tears run like rivers before they've even tried it.
There is no mechanic that makes up for the Mule being removed.
There is no mechanic that makes up for Chronoboost being removed.
Toss will end up getting buffs to research times, and certain units.
Terran will get ... supply call down and scanner sweep. Get ready for a lot more PF's, fellas! Bahahaha.
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On August 15 2015 07:41 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm baffled that Zergs are complaining about this patch. Your lives are going to be so much easier, and you'll have to build slightly more unit producing structures *gasp*. Yours is the only change that is a nerf, not a removal. And it's not even really a nerf. You'll probably end up with about the same larva, or more, for substantially less APM. Yet the tears run like rivers before they've even tried it.
There is no mechanic that makes up for the Mule being removed.
There is no mechanic that makes up for Chronoboost being removed.
Toss will end up getting buffs to research times, and certain units.
Terran will get ... supply call down and scanner sweep. Get ready for a lot more PF's, fellas! Bahahaha.
I don't know, I assume you are Terran?
So imagine Chronoboost is being removed and Inject is being removed, Mules however, now are autocast. You still have to invest into an orbital, your race is now balanced around something that happens automatically (since it is as tactical of a decision as returning a mineral patch to the hatchery after it was mined). It's just a mess, It's ugly. Should have removed inject, increased the cost of creep tumors, and slightly rebalance the larva spawntime in future updates, like they will with protoss research times.
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On August 15 2015 08:06 HaRuHi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 07:41 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm baffled that Zergs are complaining about this patch. Your lives are going to be so much easier, and you'll have to build slightly more unit producing structures *gasp*. Yours is the only change that is a nerf, not a removal. And it's not even really a nerf. You'll probably end up with about the same larva, or more, for substantially less APM. Yet the tears run like rivers before they've even tried it.
There is no mechanic that makes up for the Mule being removed.
There is no mechanic that makes up for Chronoboost being removed.
Toss will end up getting buffs to research times, and certain units.
Terran will get ... supply call down and scanner sweep. Get ready for a lot more PF's, fellas! Bahahaha. I don't know, I assume you are Terran? So imagine Chronoboost is being removed and Inject is being removed, Mules however, now are autocast. You still have to invest into an orbital, your race is now balanced around something that happens automatically (since it is as tactical of a decision as returning a mineral patch to the hatchery after it was mined). It's just a mess, It's ugly. Should have removed inject, increased the cost of creep tumors, and slightly rebalance the larva spawntime in future updates, like they will with protoss research times.
You assume correctly.
I agree with the last bit, that spawn larva should have been flatly removed, but the rest feels a little flimsy. Often, Zergs will argue that you cannot miss an inject. There is no tactical decision to inject or not, unless you're talking about extreme early game, and you're trying to connect bases with an early tumor. So, essentially, they've taken something that had to be done, every time without fail--with little decision making--and made it automatic. And there are complaints.
Could it have been better for Zerg? Contextually, probably not.
EDITED: Sorry, let me address if Mule was autocast. That would be super terrible, because Terran needs to choose between Mule and scan in meaningful ways.
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On August 15 2015 08:18 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 08:06 HaRuHi wrote:On August 15 2015 07:41 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm baffled that Zergs are complaining about this patch. Your lives are going to be so much easier, and you'll have to build slightly more unit producing structures *gasp*. Yours is the only change that is a nerf, not a removal. And it's not even really a nerf. You'll probably end up with about the same larva, or more, for substantially less APM. Yet the tears run like rivers before they've even tried it.
There is no mechanic that makes up for the Mule being removed.
There is no mechanic that makes up for Chronoboost being removed.
Toss will end up getting buffs to research times, and certain units.
Terran will get ... supply call down and scanner sweep. Get ready for a lot more PF's, fellas! Bahahaha. I don't know, I assume you are Terran? So imagine Chronoboost is being removed and Inject is being removed, Mules however, now are autocast. You still have to invest into an orbital, your race is now balanced around something that happens automatically (since it is as tactical of a decision as returning a mineral patch to the hatchery after it was mined). It's just a mess, It's ugly. Should have removed inject, increased the cost of creep tumors, and slightly rebalance the larva spawntime in future updates, like they will with protoss research times. You assume correctly. I agree with the last bit, that spawn larva should have been flatly removed, but the rest feels a little flimsy. Often, Zergs will argue that you cannot miss an inject. There is no tactical decision to inject or not, unless you're talking about extreme early game, and you're trying to connect bases with an early tumor. So, essentially, they've taken something that had to be done, every time without fail--with little decision making--and made it automatic. And there are complaints. Could it have been better for Zerg? Contextually, probably not.
The complaints that I see are angry about poor game design, not poor balance. As a zerg I hate this change for the reasons that guy stated. Inject should be manual or removed entirely. I don't care at all about whether the race is actually becoming stronger or not. That's something to think about later.
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Wow, more protoss, bullshit, cheesy builds incoming. Protoss players love proxying Stargates, now they will proxy gateways instead, then bang - 2 second warp in. With Adepts supporting the pylon and Stargate they will never lose them and the game will become unplayable for 1/3 of match ups. Try to catch them out of position and PO and defensive 2 second warp in will get them out of jail - mothership core out of position just recall and defend.
How about a change that would make Protoss players have to scout? Or be aware of the map? Or any of the other stuff that real players have to do?
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EPT
