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On August 15 2015 04:02 Sogetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 03:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:
3) Warp-in change : I've said it before, that change is just wrong. It strengthens warp prism adepts all-ins even more, to the point of retardedness, is complicated, inelegant. Splitting warp-in power and energy power achieves the same without any drawback. Warp prisms are going to be the new sentry, even worse... Frustrating to play against, source of all-ins, etc... Stop buffing that unit that is already quite broken with the range.
First, they will tune down the Adept at some point, so it doesn't matter Second, Adepts can't shoot air, so with a Viking you can deny or stop the Prism (even Turrets) The All In warping with Prism could be strong but it is a good thing because right now any sort of warp all in is stupidly strong, even the Adepts early game without any Prism and skipping the Bunkers, etc etc. I really love the whole patch notes, but I want the patch to try it ASAP. And I hope they put the new changes on the Cyclone they were testing as well the new Disruptor.
I wouldn't be as confident as you about Blizzard nerfing what is currently horribly broken like liberators or adepts. New units are cool, better make them strong, huh ?
But anyway, what is the point of making your life complicated with an even more broken warp prism that takes any gateway buff out of the question ? Splitting warp-in power and energy power (= you can warp normally but only around warpgates and Nexi) achieves exactly the same offensive warp-in nerfs without having to overbuff the warp prism, and given that the warp-in time is unchanged leaves some place to zealots buffs for instance.
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Love the patch! Hopefully coming soon!
As for people complaining there is not more info in this community feed back, I think this probably exactly tells us that DK and his team are busy with redesign, patch, and internal testing. The marco change is huge and I don't think they will have enough time to test too many versions of it.
Also this is why I am worry about the 1 month time limit... it is probably not going to be enough with so many big changes going on.
So please, release the next patch soon to get the test going.
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Really disappointing update.
Beta needs more time.
No mention the reaver.
No talk about removing msc or reworking protoss.
He mentions buffing swarmhosts which is awful.
Autocast injects... Jesus.
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On August 15 2015 04:04 Jj_82 wrote:
Only one month to try "bigger" changes? Please no! Take your time Blizzard! Take all you need!
Its already been slated to be released in 2015 - most likely during christmas. More time isn't an option.
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automatic flying locusts? this is a huge nerf. if anything you should play with ground locusts against 200/200 mech.
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On August 15 2015 03:41 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 03:37 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I've never been so disappointed in a community update.
"Hey we're going to help ZvMech, here's the swarm host"
How about you give vipers PB and/or split mech attack upgrades like in lotv, which ACTUALLY balance the match up instead of fucking around with the useless swarmhost. Either give back the old swarmhost or do the changes that are done in the beta that actually solve the problem.
I still find the removal of the macro elements to be the worst decision for the beta yet, but I haven't really thought many of the decisions have been good. I really don't see how this gives any positives while it seemingly just harms match ups. I'm glad that they're at least acknowledging that protoss needs upgrades/build times decreased in some areas to balance it out so at least that's a start. Swarmhost is on the border between being incredibly difficult to deal with, and incredibly useless. Right now I'd argue its the latter. Even in Lotv they feel so underwhelming. Nerfing mech I dont think is the answer, but without the old swarmhost, zerg in hots lost their ability to trade efficiently which is what makes mech so strong in zvt, especially in split map scenarios (ie flash v curious earlier today in gsl).
Zerg in BW can't trade effectively against mech either. The entire game, against Flash's turtle style, is based upon how many minerals zerg can mine on the terran's half of the map.
SC2's economy just doesn't work with that dynamic. Would need a BW style economy for that meta to work.
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Norway839 Posts
Zergs asked for two buttons, one to spawn ground locust and one for air locust, but it never happened.
Locust landing AI is clunky and not fun to use.
Locusts are Light, a few turrets and a PF with blue flame hellbats next to them completely demolish them.
60 seconds waiting time is still a lot.
They move awfully slowly in the air.
Feels like a lot of ways to improve the SH without making it utterly broken.
Reducing its supply from 4 to 3 is probably the best way since it only affects the later maxed-out stages of the game. Pretty much every caster out there has stated it a million times including on the WCS streams ... "the army is so small" ...
But even then, turtle mech players are extremely good at taking close to zero damage from them anyway. It's really impressive to play against players like Happy that position their planetaries, hellbats, turrets etc. well. I've had several scenarios where 10 swarm hosts have only been able to kill one turret and 1-2 hellbats. They're just really weak.
Reducing the supply from 4 to 3 is the most important change, but even then this unit has so many issues and a lot of those issues will transfer over to LOTV if they are not fixed, especially not having separate buttons for ground/air and the clunky, un-enjoyable AI with slow air locusts, stutters before landing, premature landing, etc... still there.
Actually they could just remove the swarm host and buff infested terrans on hive tech. make the eggs beefy, make the marines do damage, especially vs buildings (PF...). Same purpose, better design in every possible way.
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I think people are underestimating how dangerous it is to make "defensive" warp-ins this strong. 2 sec warp-in is pretty much instataneous, so that in the end it even reinforces 1-2 bases all-ins that have a warp prism. Hell, for 2 sec warp-ins, I would even proxy some warpgates while doing a gateway all-in. When you see how long a Protoss pylon can be defended with zealots (imagine what it becomes with adepts), you should probably be able to wall-in and defend a pylon with some warpgates, creating an on steroids warpgate all-in vs Z.
Their first solution, which I'm a big defender of, was to split energy power and warp-in power and have only warpgates, warp prisms and Nexi provide warp-in power. That solution was so much more simple and elegant, I really regret they seem to have given up on that.
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My worst dreams have come true. Autocast? REALLY? Why? Please no...
Also - incoming proxy pylon + warpgate all-ins to be stronger than anything we've seen before  .
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On August 15 2015 04:16 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 03:41 Energizer wrote:On August 15 2015 03:37 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I've never been so disappointed in a community update.
"Hey we're going to help ZvMech, here's the swarm host"
How about you give vipers PB and/or split mech attack upgrades like in lotv, which ACTUALLY balance the match up instead of fucking around with the useless swarmhost. Either give back the old swarmhost or do the changes that are done in the beta that actually solve the problem.
I still find the removal of the macro elements to be the worst decision for the beta yet, but I haven't really thought many of the decisions have been good. I really don't see how this gives any positives while it seemingly just harms match ups. I'm glad that they're at least acknowledging that protoss needs upgrades/build times decreased in some areas to balance it out so at least that's a start. Swarmhost is on the border between being incredibly difficult to deal with, and incredibly useless. Right now I'd argue its the latter. Even in Lotv they feel so underwhelming. Nerfing mech I dont think is the answer, but without the old swarmhost, zerg in hots lost their ability to trade efficiently which is what makes mech so strong in zvt, especially in split map scenarios (ie flash v curious earlier today in gsl). Zerg in BW can't trade effectively against mech either. The entire game, against Flash's turtle style, is based upon how many minerals zerg can mine on the terran's half of the map. SC2's economy just doesn't work with that dynamic. Would need a BW style economy for that meta to work.
Eh, while the economy in BW did help zerg deal with mech, I'd argue that it wasn't the only reason zerg was able to beat mech. A lot of it came down to positioning a much larger army and excellent defiler control, though granted, there wasn't any real way to engage into a terran position and come out ahead - but that was to be expected since you were banking on your third attack. Dont get me wrong, I'd love to see a return of BW's old economy back, but I think at this point its clear DK doesn't want it in sc2 nor does he intend to change the eco system.
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creep spread will be alot easier to do now for every player... looks scary
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On August 15 2015 04:24 Qwyn wrote:Also - incoming proxy pylon + warpgate all-ins to be stronger than anything we've seen before .
I think they're really overlooking this... And don't forget the even more obvious anything + a warp prism scenario.
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On August 15 2015 04:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 04:24 Qwyn wrote:Also - incoming proxy pylon + warpgate all-ins to be stronger than anything we've seen before . I think they're really overlooking this... And don't forget the even more obvious anything + a warp prism scenario.
no more warp prism harras, more like warp prism kill move
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Jesus fucking christ can they please stop ruining the game?
What's the point of having autocast larva injects? That is so fucking stupid. Either make the player do it or remove it completely.
With the piss poor state of the game so far, are MACRO MECHANICS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING?
Any changes to those will obviously require huge rebalancing of the game around them (basically every single protoss build time needs to change).
Can they just work on fixing liberators, cyclones, disruptors, the economy, etc.??
They make the game infinitely harder by insisting on this stupid fucking economy that is change purely for change's sake and then go around dumbing everything down to compensate.
Fuck.
Ugh I'm mad.
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What is the point of having auto-injects? Why not just make more larva spawn at the hatchery with a soft cap where they start to spawn slower, or have some sort of upgrade to have more than 3 available? And then queens can have 50 energy required to poop a tumor since they won't be injecting anymore.
WP needs to take some middle ground on unit spawning, like 5-8 seconds. Otherwise it would defeat the whole point of nerfing the offensive warp if a prism is allowed to spawn units quickly.
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LOOOOOOL
Swarmhosts again? This is the result of all the hard counters in the game so blizzard HAVE to go back to these stupid units. PLEASE Blizzard just remove the swarm host and find some other solution (or make locusts cost money).
I have no idea how the warpgates changes is gonna play out in a game.
Regarding removing the macro stuff.
It sucks that they are removing chronoboost imho it is a really good mechanic. But maybe it could be good for the game?(I am however very doubtful with the current unit interactions)
Suggestion
I feel like zerg wont have to look in their base as much as the other races if they remove inject, so maybe make it so that overlords dont spawn from larvae but you build them with your drones. Maybe the drones morphs in to a 2x2 caccon so you cant just put it down in the mineral line?
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Looking forward to how the new macro mechanics feel, going to be weird for sure 
Yes, the warp prism all ins will be stronger. But at least it will be shut down HARD once the warp prism dies. It will probably be standard to get some ravagers or vikings to counter the warp prism once you scout the all in coming, but so be it. Don't bash it too much before you try to play against it.
Looking forward to the patch.
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On August 15 2015 04:26 Topin wrote:
creep spread will be alot easier to do now for every player... looks scary
with auto-inject you have basically zero chance to creep spread.
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On August 15 2015 04:36 MyrionSC wrote:
Yes, the warp prism all ins will be stronger. But at least it will be shut down HARD once the warp prism dies. It will probably be standard to get some ravagers or vikings to counter the warp prism once you scout the all in coming, but so be it. Don't bash it too much before you try to play against it.
I wouldn't bash it if splitting warp-in power and energy power didn't achieve exactly the same things on the offensive warp-in nerf side, but without the downsides...
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EPT
