EPTYou need such good blink-micro skills to handle that composition though.....in HOTS for most people it's more realistic to just get colossus.
[D] The state of the Colossus in HotS and LotV - Page 2
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phantomfive
Korea (South)404 Posts
You need such good blink-micro skills to handle that composition though.....in HOTS for most people it's more realistic to just get colossus. | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On June 28 2015 22:19 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: I honestly think Colossi should just be removed, Protoss has enough AoE and the unit is just a-move. I dont think there is another unit more a-move then colossi... you dont even need to make a concave or something, just pull a bit back and then a-move I would also want Reaver instead of Disruptor. I mean, there's almost every zerg ground unit... | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
Halve its speed, increase its damage (above what it was before) revert the range, make Viper abducts only have half the effect. Make massive units immune to recall. Suddenly you have a positional/ defensive unit - much like a slow siege. Also fits the "destroyer of worlds" concept. | ||
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Quineotio
Australia128 Posts
On June 29 2015 19:44 weikor wrote: One idea could be - Halve its speed, increase its damage (above what it was before) revert the range, make Viper abducts only have half the effect. Make massive units immune to recall. Suddenly you have a positional/ defensive unit - much like a slow siege. Also fits the "destroyer of worlds" concept. I was thinking something like this too. Make its weakness its speed. At the moment it keeps up pretty well with the protoss army, but if it moved slower there'd be more strategy involved with its positioning - harder to get into battle, harder to escape, but devastating if in the right place and protected. | ||
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MiniFotToss
China2430 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:26 Geiko wrote: Sounds a bit imba to be honest. Put them in warpprism. Siege in front of zerg base and voila. Making units super strong but with a big drawback (such as very low speed) can be good design but it is VERY hard to balance. That'd be no different that a bunch of Medivacs unloading some Siege Tanks and them going into Siege mode in front a Zerg base. The difference is that the cost of a bunch of Warp Prisms plus Colossus is extreme, and Warp Prisms will be slower moving across the map. Remember, the damage is no more than the Colossus in HOTS. As I said, you need to handle the Warp Prism in relation to the Colossus. Give them a long load/unload time, don't allow it to be loaded in "siege mode" and reduce warp prism speed while carrying it, and nerf pick up range and you're there. I know this because I suggested thing change a long time ago (back in the HOTS Beta) and created a balance map to test it, and if anything Colossus were very hard to use and need more buffs I felt. Pick up them in the Warp Prism and the Vikings/Corrupters will just focus down the slowed Warp Prism. Also, the cost and time required to make a Warp Prism makes them even more expensive if you're going to try and pair every Colossus with a Warp Prism. What that change does, is makes attacking with the Colossus a lot more difficult, but improve their defensive abilities. On June 29 2015 22:34 StarscreamG1 wrote: Starcraft logic - Nerf the colossus, it's a-move. And nobodys talks about chargelots abomination. Except for the whole thread on Gateway units... yeah. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On June 29 2015 20:55 Quineotio wrote: I was thinking something like this too. Make its weakness its speed. At the moment it keeps up pretty well with the protoss army, but if it moved slower there'd be more strategy involved with its positioning - harder to get into battle, harder to escape, but devastating if in the right place and protected. Not neccasarily. If you just nerf its speed and buff its core stats somehow, it will be even more of a deathball unit than it is now. In order to be a proper positional unit it needs to enter a state where it cannot move/move extremely slowly, which makes it possible to balance its core stats around being insanely strong. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19384 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
In PvT Colossus use is almost always about making sure you DONT attack into a concave. It's about moving your army around to attack from the optimal side. It's about microing your Colossi back from the Vikings so your Stalkers can shoot them down and bringing the Colos back forward again when he stims his bio and goes in on the Stalkers. In PvZ Colossi can easily be swarmed by groups of Roaches or picked off by corruptors if the Protoss engages from a bad angle or is surprised by a flank. The Colossi need to stay towards the back of the army to avoid abducts and "roach hugs" but they can't wander too far because the Protoss army is highly reliant on their AoE damage. In PvP positioning of Colossus is the single most important thing in late game engagements. How clumped together are they? How big is your concave relative to his? What unist are you focus firing with them? Etc. While we're on the topic of dumb a-move units.. how about the Roach? Or the Hellbat? I agree with OP that LotV Colossus is absolutely useless. Unit needs a few tweaks because in its current form there is no incentive to make it over anything else. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
In PvZ Colossi can easily be swarmed by groups of Roaches or picked off by corruptors if the Protoss engages from a bad angle or is surprised by a flank. The Colossi need to stay towards the back of the army to avoid abducts and "roach hugs" but they can't wander too far because the Protoss army is highly reliant on their AoE damage. Still goes under the amove category. In PvP positioning of Colossus is the single most important thing in late game engagements. How clumped together are they? How big is your concave relative to his? What unist are you focus firing with them? Etc. You also spread out Roaches in ZvZ wars. This is still amove. In PvT Colossus use is almost always about making sure you DONT attack into a concave. It's about moving your army around to attack from the optimal side. It's about microing your Colossi back from the Vikings so your Stalkers can shoot them down and bringing the Colos back forward again when he stims his bio and goes in on the Stalkers. During the engagement you don't move Colosuss very much. Instead you can move arcons/stalkers to focus fire Vikings down. 95% of the time you simply amove with the Coloussus. TLDR: You have a too narrow definition of what amove is. Slight repositions prior to an engagement still fits under amove. The only situation where its not really being amoved is in PvP where one Colossus might get low on HP and you pull it back to save it. While we're on the topic of dumb a-move units.. how about the Roach? Or the Hellbat? Noone are saying these units aren't amovish as well. Except the Roach can be used for burrow micro and hellbat for medivac micro. Colossus doesn't synergize with Warp Prism very well on the other hand. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Single Target. Targets specific spot and hits whatever unit remains in its target spot as the attack sequence finishes. The laser swipe starts outward and closes in on a target area. This gives the unit in the targeted area an opportunity to micro out of the way before the two lasers converge in the middle. Neither are realistic if they are being parts of its auto-attacks. It's simply not practical to manually respond to this type of micro if there are multiple Colossus out on a battle that each fire every other second. These types of effects instead must be part of abilities with significant cooldowns. And honestly, protoss really doesn't need a tier 3 AOE abilitiy on the Robo with the introduction of the Disruptor. I think there are only two solutions that makes sense for the Colossus: (1) Zone-control/postiional unit. (2) Solid single-target unit that is better vs light than armored + has some type of escape tool so it can move out on the map without commiting 100%. Perhaps this can be through the Warp Prism, which implies that it shouldn't be vunerable to AA. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On June 29 2015 23:58 Hider wrote: Still goes under the amove category. You also spread out Roaches in ZvZ wars. This is still amove. During the engagement you don't move Colosuss very much. Instead you can move arcons/stalkers to focus fire Vikings down. 95% of the time you simply amove with the Coloussus. TLDR: You have a too narrow definition of what amove is. Slight repositions prior to an engagement still fits under amove. The only situation where its not really being amoved is in PvP where one Colossus might get low on HP and you pull it back to save it. Noone are saying these units aren't amovish as well. Except the Roach can be used for burrow micro and hellbat for medivac micro. Colossus doesn't synergize with Warp Prism very well on the other hand. What on Earth are you talking about? Your argument is basically "nope, still amove." I've given you a detailed description of exactly all the different kinds of NON a-moves you need to make with your Colossus. A right click back is not an a-move. Focus firing is not an A-move. Kiting bio while moving back with your Colossi and sending your Zealots in is not an A-move. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
The unit does a lot of damage but has a couple of GLARING weaknesses that can be exploited by both Zerg and Terran. Honestly I think it's just fine. Maybe if we had fewer people whining about how "OP" and "a-move" it is and more people actually playing with the damn thing we could have a constructive conversation. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
The unit is just badly designed in how much it promotes deathball play. The disruptor has the potential to be a good replacement. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Various play styles are what make the game interesting. If you have to play a certain style every time the options are limited and the game gets stale. Forcing only small engagements everywhere might not appeal to all players. I have a few friends who like to just make big armies and march across the map. There are people who like this. Similarly, my own play style is much more harass focused. And the players that I like to watch are usually not the ones who are turtling to a deathball. But when you nerf the Colossus into oblivion and tell Protoss "you must play this way" you're making the game shallower. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On June 30 2015 00:31 DinoMight wrote: I for one think that it should be okay to make a deathball if you want to. Various play styles are what make the game interesting. If you have to play a certain style every time the options are limited and the game gets stale. Forcing only small engagements everywhere might not appeal to all players. I have a few friends who like to just make big armies and march across the map. There are people who like this. Similarly, my own play style is much more harass focused. And the players that I like to watch are usually not the ones who are turtling to a deathball. But when you nerf the Colossus into oblivion and tell Protoss "you must play this way" you're making the game shallower. I completely agree about various play styles. However, the Protoss deathball should be like the Terran MMM deathball or Roach Hydra ball. It should lack big time AOE in a straight up fight, and instead should be mobile. Therefore it loses up straight up to positional based compositions that use the Lurker or Siege Tank. The Colossus blurs the line between the playstyles, and ends up leaving Protoss in a weird area. The solution as I mentioned is the make the Colossus into a true positional unit, while making some changes to Gateway units and Archons to supplement it. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
I've given you a detailed description of exactly all the different kinds of NON a-moves you need to make with your Colossus. The problem is that these moves you are talking about is something you do with every single unit. Even Roaches in ZvZ wars and everyone considers that amoves. Hence, your definition of amoving isn't inline with how the majority of the community views it. Your definition is too literral. Based on my observation from how people typically speak of this unit, the following types of micro must be rewarded for a unit to not be considered amosish: - Spliting - Intensive kiting - Heavy focus fire - Pull away unit from focus fire - Using abilities really well Maintaining a concave and staying far away from enemy units??? Very few people will have that on their list. Some people will also point out that Maurauder is an amove unit, and it actually is in situations where it isn't splitting or facing Zealots - even though you always wanna maintain a concave with the unit. The Colossus blurs the line between the playstyles, and ends up leaving Protoss in a weird area. Yes, this is definitely the issue. As a general rule either you give a unit at least 2.75 movement speed or you make it a true positional unit (or spellcaster) that can hold specific locations very well. 2.25 speed units on the other hand (like the Immortal and the Colossus) end up being very deathballish as they cannot retreat from engagements and are also too slow to be microed during engagements. This issue can too an extent be circumvented if they synergize very well with dropships, but Colossus doesn't due to AA-vulnerability. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
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