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[D] The state of the Colossus in HotS and LotV - Page 5

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5225 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-08 06:13:17
July 08 2015 05:23 GMT
#81
On July 02 2015 14:42 AmicusVenti wrote:
...but it seems staggeringly arrogant and premature to claim this over an idea that has not been tested and proven to be good, to take for granted that your idea truly incredible in a discussion thread of multiple ideas.


My Colossus idea was tested and refined during the HOTS Beta. Seems odd that you'd prematurely and arrogantly claim it wasn't... right? I also tested the Colossus splash, and it is as bad as Baneling splash hitting friendly units would be. You don't think someone with a gift for game design wouldn't skip testing, do you?

I am staggeringly arrogant to many people and believe in myself more than you believe in yourself. I guarantee it.

But that isn't a bad thing.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-08 16:24:12
July 08 2015 14:40 GMT
#82

Yes and its way worse because it just becomes even more deathballish. Ask your self this, can you justify a Colossus that moves at 1.5 as a unit that is extremely strong positional? Otherwise it will just be a slow moving deathball unit.


The units that are great in deathballs are all medium-or-faster speed units, not slow units. Like hydra/roach balls. Throwing in Broodlords makes it way less deathbally and more strategic. People don't talk about "Mech balls" because they don't exist. They don't work that way.


Just nerfing the Colossus speed somewhat and buffing its core stats (somewhat) is a receipt for a disaster. If you have a very detailed plan on how you want to make the unit positional, that's great. But trust me, you have to go much further down than 1.5, and the safest solution is to let it be completely immobile once it enters its "High cost efficiency"-state.

But given the current design of the Colossus, it's essential to understand that the main reason for it being so amovish and deathballish is due to its lack of movement speed (not vice versa).


The phrase "trust me" is a little bizarre when we're having an argument.

The fact is that A-move sucks with slow units. A-moving is only effective with units because they have reasonable speed. There are some very powerful slow units in SC2 and if you notice, they totally suck in deathballs. They get crushed. A deathball that is slower becomes a lot scarier to use because it's much more vulnerable to counterattacks, surrounds, and getting caught out of position.

Wanna know why terran bio can move out on the map easily and protoss cannot with their robo units? Because bio units can escape and defend multiple locations at once due to their mobility. Colossus can't escape on the other hand. In fact, the protoss player has the most "commited" army out of any races.

If the Colossus was strong enough positionally so you could split them out all over the map --> That's one possible solution, but it requires huge design changes in multiple ways from its current state.


??? the comparison of Terran's most mobile composition to Protoss's least mobile composition is pointless. The proper comparison would be Protoss deathball compared to Terran mech. And we both know that Protoss deathball is way way way more mobile and way way less committed than Terran mech, so this is just silly.

Colossus is too mobile. It moves around the map too easily. This makes it a much less risky unit to use, and that's what makes it boring and a-movey. If it has more risk to it, more clunky to use, then it would be engaging and funner to play with and play against.
wickedxlax
Profile Joined July 2015
1 Post
July 10 2015 18:49 GMT
#83
The main thing that bothers me about Protoss is that there seems to be only one dominant late game play style ... Skytoss. I would love to see a changeup that similar to what Blizzard did with the Terrans, Make Robo, and Gateway play styles an equally viable path as opposed to just taking to the air in the late game.

Nothing coming out of the robotics facility can currently hit air. If Blizzard changed the Disruptor role to be an AOE anti-Air unit I think it would make Colossi viable again, not compete with the former or the High templar for function. And open up more robotics based builds. I also think the immortal would need a buff of some sort to not make them fall to marines so easily, or something like a range, or speed upgrade, or lengthening the current shield ability. Personally I would love to see a unit that restores shields like the shield battery in SC1

I would love to see the late game improve for gateway units as well by adding more tier 3 abilities, most likely to Archons, and DTs. I would love to see blink archons, or a range upgrade, or something that improves their use vs death balls and mech. So there needs such a heavy reliance on stargate units or to a lesser extent robo units to win the day. Maybe make a tier 3 ability for adepts to possess a unit like banshee's in Warcraft 3. Or make an upgrade option to Sentries so Hallucinations actually do damage similar to the units they mimic, to give the protoss a better ability to counter Raven, and Infestor/Swarmhost armies.

The goal would be to make a gateway army and a robo army as equally effective as a skytoss army.
RoomOfMush
Profile Joined March 2015
1296 Posts
July 10 2015 20:05 GMT
#84
On July 08 2015 08:27 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +

1.5 is not even close to 2.25. It's way way different.


Yes and its way worse because it just becomes even more deathballish. Ask your self this, can you justify a Colossus that moves at 1.5 as a unit that is extremely strong positional? Otherwise it will just be a slow moving deathball unit.

I disagree. A slow moving unit is less a-move and less deathball. Why? Because a slow moving unit can not retreat when it gets into a bad position.
Your enemy can easily surround you or snipe your bases while you are too slow to catch up. With a slow moving unit you have to be very very careful where you want to put it. Moving out is always a risk. Protecting one base with it means it can not protect the other bases because it is too slow to get there in time.

Just think about the Reaver in BW, its the slowest unit ever and it was the pure anti-deathball unit. You got single Reaver harassment or you were using Reavers in shuttles at the front of your army to fire off 1 or 2 shots before the rest marches in. Or you have Reaver defenses with super heavy micro investments.

If Reavers could move as fast as Dragoons they would suddenly become a deathball unit and be massed. But since they were so slow they needed shuttles to be moved and since shuttles required high APM to be used you could never get too many Reavers at once. You were simply not physically capable of actually using them.


Meanwhile the most deathballish armies in SC2 consist entirely of fast or semi-fast moving units.
Pirfiktshon
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1072 Posts
July 10 2015 20:16 GMT
#85
I disagree. A slow moving unit is less a-move and less deathball. Why? Because a slow moving unit can not retreat when it gets into a bad position.
Your enemy can easily surround you or snipe your bases while you are too slow to catch up. With a slow moving unit you have to be very very careful where you want to put it. Moving out is always a risk. Protecting one base with it means it can not protect the other bases because it is too slow to get there in time.

Just think about the Reaver in BW, its the slowest unit ever and it was the pure anti-deathball unit. You got single Reaver harassment or you were using Reavers in shuttles at the front of your army to fire off 1 or 2 shots before the rest marches in. Or you have Reaver defenses with super heavy micro investments.

If Reavers could move as fast as Dragoons they would suddenly become a deathball unit and be massed. But since they were so slow they needed shuttles to be moved and since shuttles required high APM to be used you could never get too many Reavers at once. You were simply not physically capable of actually using them.


Meanwhile the most deathballish armies in SC2 consist entirely of fast or semi-fast moving units.


This is actually a very good analogy imo. There are some drawbacks but I think that the if the speed is reduced then so should the $ for it...
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-11 12:49:10
July 11 2015 12:47 GMT
#86
On July 11 2015 05:16 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Show nested quote +
I disagree. A slow moving unit is less a-move and less deathball. Why? Because a slow moving unit can not retreat when it gets into a bad position.
Your enemy can easily surround you or snipe your bases while you are too slow to catch up. With a slow moving unit you have to be very very careful where you want to put it. Moving out is always a risk. Protecting one base with it means it can not protect the other bases because it is too slow to get there in time.

Just think about the Reaver in BW, its the slowest unit ever and it was the pure anti-deathball unit. You got single Reaver harassment or you were using Reavers in shuttles at the front of your army to fire off 1 or 2 shots before the rest marches in. Or you have Reaver defenses with super heavy micro investments.

If Reavers could move as fast as Dragoons they would suddenly become a deathball unit and be massed. But since they were so slow they needed shuttles to be moved and since shuttles required high APM to be used you could never get too many Reavers at once. You were simply not physically capable of actually using them.


Meanwhile the most deathballish armies in SC2 consist entirely of fast or semi-fast moving units.


This is actually a very good analogy imo. There are some drawbacks but I think that the if the speed is reduced then so should the $ for it...


Well what I was suggesting is that the speed is reduced but maybe the power/damage get raised.

But I guess if they're going to nerf it in LotV anyway, they might as just nerf just the speed rather than the power.
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