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On June 30 2015 22:14 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 08:57 sM.Zik wrote:
I havent watch any starcraft for the past 2-3 months and I must say i'm shocked to read that NO ONE is building colossus anymore.. This is absolutely false. Players are still building Colossi in all matchups. Mass Blink is the new trend in PvZ so Colossus use in that matchup has declined a bit but they are still used extensively in PvT and PvP. And still in PvZ...
I never said that Colossi are not used in any matchup, only PvZ, which is pretty much the case. "No-one" was obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but I'm pretty convinced that no Colossus is built in 9 out of 10 high level Korean PvZ matches nowadays.
Anyway, the discussion was meant to be directed to LotV mainly, considering the current nerfs.
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Colossus nerf makes sense given adept is pretty powerful.
But I think it could use some buff, afterall it is the key unit of protoss, you put lots of focus on it rather than watching a bunch of gateway units.
PvZ gateway heavy army vs colossus gateway army feels incredibly different to watch for example.
I personally think it would be cool if protoss can have two different army type, gateway heavy with disruptor; colossus heavy slower adept heavy army.
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On July 01 2015 01:58 ETisME wrote:
I personally think it would be cool if protoss can have two different army type, gateway heavy with disruptor; colossus heavy slower adept heavy army.
The Colossus isn't good enough right now for any composition I'm afraid.
Also, with Colossi you need antiair given its vulnerability to air units, so it's always going to be accompanied by stalkers, phoenixes or voidrays.
I really hope that they just experiment with removing the walker concept from it at least in some way. I think cliff walking and microing over your units are fine and cool concepts, but sitting on top of your units while attacking is what makes it so annoying to fight.
It's just so well protected that way and the reason why the air vulnerability is so important. That one could also be removed if Colossi would push other ground units away when coming to a halt.
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On June 29 2015 00:35 BronzeKnee wrote:
It's high time to make the Colossus into the positional unit that the Lurker and Siege Tank are. Increase range by 1 (6 to 7 and 9 to 10 with thermal lance), revert the damage nerf, increase shields by 50, and slow the movespeed down to ~1.0.
Then give it a "siege mode" like ability that concentrates it shields against air attacks, making it invulnerable to air units, but the unit can't move while in the mode, has a minimum range of 2-3, and its shields don't protect it against ground attacks.
Volia.
Tons of counter play opportunities. It goes into its "Siege Mode" and Vikings can't damage it from the air? Well they can land very close to it and it can't hit them back. You'll have to nerf the movespeed of Warp Prisms when carrying the Colossus and the pick up range too, but it'd be a fun change.
I don't like the coin flip damage that is the Disruptor.
This is actually a really cool idea imo. Although maybe 1.4 (BL speed) is a better option, with the larger maps and 1.0 movespeed Colossi could be managed and countered by the time they got to the other side of the map. And Warp Prisms could have some sort of movespeed penalty in addition to some sort of minor graphical change, kinda like how the Thor hangs from underneath the Medivac.
Managing where to put the shields (all to air vs. soft defense for all attacks) is also really fun and something I've always wanted to see in gaming in general. Make "switch all power to front deflector screens" something of a reality.
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I don't see any real problem with the existing HOTS Colossus. It counters the usual 'concave beats everything' characteristic of most other SCII units, (which is a good thing on the basic of tactical diversity alone), has at least 1 Zerg and Terran hard counter (Viper, Viking), and provides an interesting challenge/opportunity for Protoss unit positional play (the challenge being that in conjunction with other ground units it must be positioned carefully to protect it, the opportunity lies in its high ground vision and cliff stepping mobility.
Between the economy changes, some dubious looking new units and even dafter ideas for existing units (Ghost), LOTV currently bears a striking resemblance to a dog's breakfast. I know it's only early days in the beta but I think Blizzard has given themselves enough to do to pull the already tabled raft of LOTV changes into something coherent without contemplating a major redesign of a reasonably balanced and somewhat iconic existing unit.
I don't understand those who complain that the unit is excessively a-move. StarCraft is actually suppposed to be a strategy game you know, positioning your forces and them being able to do something vaguely useful without having to micro every single one should be viable to an extent. Not every unit has to have the mechanics of a MOBA hero.
I also don't understand the complaint about it promoting deathball play. It's true that it is a deathball style unit, but it does require a deathball with a diverse unit composition to support it and it doesn't force Protoss down the route of the deathball either, they have just as good options for an harass style play as the other races, and if your opponent spots you going deathball heavy then they also have the opportunity to counter with a more harass based style themselves.
The point has been made that any kind of deathball style should be designed out of the game completely because it isn't fun to watch. Well I wouldn't concede that point in the first place both because I enjoy watching Colossus play but also because I favour tactical diversity, but putting that to one side consider this, on what basis do you want the game balanced? Do you want it to be balanced in terms of what makes it a fun game to play, or what makes it a more viable gameshow? Personally I'd prefer to see it balanced purely on the basis of gameplay and let those who want to watch it do so, because I for one would not want to watch a game that I didn't want to play.
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I've wanted a lot of changes for the Colossus before, including giving it a siege like mode or active ability (both mentioned in this thread), but I don't think those are the best changes for the Colossus. The siege mode is not good I think because it makes it a siege tank copy, which seems kind of lazy and takes away from its identity (DK said in an interview that he doesn't want non-Terran units to have mode transformations, I guess the warp prism is an exception but I think I'll let it go), and people are already complaining about the density of active abilities.
I think the best sort of changes would be the following:
-Make it do friendly fire. That would encourage more careful engagements and positioning from the Protoss end and make the unit interesting and tricky (in a good way, I think!) to use.
-Make it slower. This makes positioning and protecting it as you move across the map more important, the army doesn't easily stick together in the widely disliked deathball-fashion.
-Remove the ability to walk over Protoss units. I worry this, again, delves into the territory of taking away the Colossus identity, since the Colossus no longer stands over the other units as a foreboding guardian, but I think it's ultimately a really good change. For one, the end result of this mechanic is that the Colossus clips through other units more often than not, which looks pretty silly. More importantly, this forces the Protoss army to take up more space and position more carefully. Part of the problem with Colossi is if they're out of position, they can just kite the enemy army while retreating behind the other Protoss stuff. While it's still quite bad to have your Colossi out of position, it's dramatically less punishing than if they couldn't walk over the other units. Between this change at the movement speed change, this becomes a lot less feasible making positioning a lot more important.
These are the changes I would like to see tried that make the Colossus more interesting while still being consistent with the idea of what the Colossus had been. Since these changes are all pretty much nerfs, I think the Colossus should get some decent damage or range buffs to go along with it. In the lore, the Colossus is an ancient Protoss invention that was banned since the Protoss basically committed accidental genocide with them. I think the friendly fire change along with some damage buffs helps drive home the idea of the Colossus being a terrifying war machine that the Protoss would rather not use. I think the current changes of making the Colossus be backup emergency splash really does NOT resonate with that idea. While I'd like to see the Colossus be saved like this, I would rather see it removed and totally replaced by the Disruptor than left in its current sad state. If necessary, the Disruptor can fulfill its role.
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On July 02 2015 10:50 AmicusVenti wrote:
The siege mode is not good I think because it makes it a siege tank copy, which seems kind of lazy and takes away from its identity (DK said in an interview that he doesn't want non-Terran units to have mode transformations
What I mentioned isn't a "siege mode" as much as it is a "defensive mode" (though that doesn't' really fit either). I think it is really important to point that out.
I shouldn't have called it Siege Mode. It wouldn't give extra range or damage, or defense. You'd trade the ability to not to targetable by air to air attacks, but lose shields to ground units, and the ability to move, and have a minimum range.
On July 02 2015 10:50 AmicusVenti wrote:
I think the best sort of changes would be the following:
-Make it do friendly fire. That would encourage more careful engagements and positioning from the Protoss end and make the unit interesting and tricky (in a good way, I think!) to use.
That couldn't happen. Reason is that a Colossus based army would be extremely vulnerable to units dropped on top of itself, far more so than a group of Sieged up tanks. The Colossus splashes a much larger area, therefore a few Marauders or Roaches dropped on top of the army, or Blink Stalkers blinking in to the middle of a Colossus based army would cause critical damage to the force.
And you'd never be able to use Colossus to defend mineral lines from drops. That would force Protoss to defend drops in PvT differently, and open differently in general.
In other words, that change would have much farther reaching effects that giving it a different ability as I discussed above.
On July 01 2015 03:57 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 00:35 BronzeKnee wrote:
It's high time to make the Colossus into the positional unit that the Lurker and Siege Tank are. Increase range by 1 (6 to 7 and 9 to 10 with thermal lance), revert the damage nerf, increase shields by 50, and slow the movespeed down to ~1.0.
Then give it a "siege mode" like ability that concentrates it shields against air attacks, making it invulnerable to air units, but the unit can't move while in the mode, has a minimum range of 2-3, and its shields don't protect it against ground attacks.
Volia.
Tons of counter play opportunities. It goes into its "Siege Mode" and Vikings can't damage it from the air? Well they can land very close to it and it can't hit them back. You'll have to nerf the movespeed of Warp Prisms when carrying the Colossus and the pick up range too, but it'd be a fun change.
I don't like the coin flip damage that is the Disruptor. This is actually a really cool idea imo. Although maybe 1.4 (BL speed) is a better option, with the larger maps and 1.0 movespeed Colossi could be managed and countered by the time they got to the other side of the map..
All fine tuning I suggested would of course be subject to change, that movespeed might be way too slow or fast, but the basic idea is there. I suggested this way back during the HOTS Beta...
I have a gift for game design.
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On July 02 2015 11:29 BronzeKnee wrote:
What I mentioned isn't a "siege mode" as much as it is a "defensive mode" (though that doesn't' really fit either). I think it is really important to point that out.
I shouldn't have called it Siege Mode. It wouldn't give extra range or damage, or defense. You'd trade the ability to not to targetable by air to air attacks, but lose shields to ground units, and the ability to move, and have a minimum range.
The idea that I mentioned and considered was very much like yours, something along the lines of the Colossus crouching down, and I still really don't think it's good. Partly because, as I said, Blizzard doesn't want Protoss units that change modes, and I think they're in the right, partly because it would, well, just sorta look ridiculous. Either they crouch down to avoid air, but I think that would look really absurd, or they're suddenly non-targetable by air attacks for no clear reason. I also suspect that such a mode would be overpowered. I can't imagine your situation with vikings landing on top of them being feasible if there are any Stalkers/Zealots/etc. guarding the Colossi, or even just other Colossi. That hardly ever happens with Tanks. Dropping on top of them I could sort of see, but when you drop on top of Tanks you're mainly doing it to bait out friendly fire, something which you're strongly opposed to.
That couldn't happen. Reason is that a Colossus based army would be extremely vulnerable to units dropped on top of itself, far more so than a group of Sieged up tanks. The Colossus splashes a much larger area, therefore a few Marauders or Roaches dropped on top of the army, or Blink Stalkers blinking in to the middle of a Colossus based army would cause critical damage to the force.
And you'd never be able to use Colossus to defend mineral lines from drops. That would force Protoss to defend drops in PvT differently, and open differently in general.
In other words, that change would have much farther reaching effects that giving it a different ability as I discussed above.
I'm not convinced this is bad. I did almost mention that I think a Hold Fire button would be good if this is implemented, and I think your arguments point towards that, but I'm not sure it's necessary; it is arguably more interesting to need to move command them away. Sure, you would need to keep an eye on your army to prevent drops or blinks on top of you, but that's pretty normal in StarCraft.
I'm also not terribly concerned about the drop defense issue either. Since Colossi are already very rare in LotV anyway, Protoss seems to be having a fine time defending drops without them. For small to normal drops, you probably don't need your Colossi to defend. For massive doom drops, destroying a few probes of your own is probably worth shredding a large portion of you opponents army. This is all pretty moot anyway because you can also run your probes away.I think the situation is similar to Marine-Tank TvT. Whether or not you use your Tanks to defend the drop depends on how big the enemy drop is. And you're probably going to run you workers away well before the army gets home anyway. On top of that, when you've suggested reducing movespeed down to around 1.0-1.4 (for whatever it's worth I think it's far too dramatic), they're not going to be terribly useful against defending drops
I have a gift for game design.
I'm not sure if you're being tongue-in-cheek. I think you've presented some worthwhile ideas that are definitely worth discussing (even if I do disagree to some extent), but it seems staggeringly arrogant and premature to claim this over an idea that has not been tested and proven to be good, to take for granted that your idea truly incredible in a discussion thread of multiple ideas.
Edit: Riperino formatino
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i think it's fine if it's not used in PvZ,
without being a naysayer, bw pvt, t never went bio,
and the now and then u'll have someone bust out the collosus or have some hyper weird disrupter coll warp prism combo 1-shotting thingsin pvz and we'll all be amazed
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On July 02 2015 11:29 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 10:50 AmicusVenti wrote:
I think the best sort of changes would be the following:
-Make it do friendly fire. That would encourage more careful engagements and positioning from the Protoss end and make the unit interesting and tricky (in a good way, I think!) to use.
That couldn't happen. Reason is that a Colossus based army would be extremely vulnerable to units dropped on top of itself, far more so than a group of Sieged up tanks. The Colossus splashes a much larger area, therefore a few Marauders or Roaches dropped on top of the army, or Blink Stalkers blinking in to the middle of a Colossus based army would cause critical damage to the force. And you'd never be able to use Colossus to defend mineral lines from drops. That would force Protoss to defend drops in PvT differently, and open differently in general. In other words, that change would have much farther reaching effects that giving it a different ability as I discussed above.
Take this with a grain of salt, because I've fallen out of touch with StarCraft for a solid year, but what about if Colossus only did friendly fire to units without shields?
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That would be a bit weird mechanically though.
I still think returning Colossus to one of the earlier patches, where it did more damage per swipe but with slower attack time, and maybe a short delay in splash time (since the lance takes a while to swipe from side to side), would encourage more intelligent use of the Colossus. So it would still be powerful, but only with proper positioning and control comparable to other Protoss splash units like the Disruptor or High Templar.
Say the damage was raised from 15x2 to maybe 18x2 (or higher. 24x2 with +2 per upgrade? Then a fully upgraded Colossus could kill a shielded marine with only 2 armor, making +3 attack/armor respecively more crucial for both races). Now in PvZ it one-shots Zerglings. But if all the Colossi are bunched up, and the Zerglings go forth, all of the Colossi will target the same patch of lings, each kill one and maybe 1-2 stragglers with the splash, but most of the contingent will go unharmed, and can inflict massive damage in the seconds while the Colossus gets ready for its next shot. Same in PvT. Colossi kill like 6 marines, the rest can stim and pick off the Colossi better. Players would have to spread their Colossi to make sure they were all whittling down individual groups of marines, with Zealots/Stalkers/Immortals cleaning up the survivors. The spread also encourages Protoss to not completely abandon the deathball where Colossi are involved, but spread it out a bit, weakening it.
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Upgraded damage and slower rate of fire seems interesting.
Make it do friendly fire and give it a minimum range of 1 or 2 would clip it's wings against zerglings too.
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On June 29 2015 00:07 _indigo_ wrote:Colossus is negating the use of concaves, is arguably boring and is severely nerfed in LotV. However, I like the visual design, walking over units and cliffs and I would like to see it redesigned ability-wise. What if Colossus would lose its AOE ability (Adepts kind of imbue the gateway army enough that you can tech to templars and Disruptors and hold your ground) and gain more damage on it's single target beams? This way it would be better vs buildings and bigger units. Range would need to stay as in HotS or even +1 with single target damage. Something like in this screenshot + Show Spoiler +
That's a terrible idea. Reason why people get Colossus is for the splash.
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I have always maintained that the problem with Colossus is that it's just too fast. Protoss armies don't sacrifice enough speed for its power. Other races' siege units are either crazy slow or need to become immobile (burrow or siege mode). Having a siege unit that moves around normally is bizarre, and the cliffwalk only makes it worse.
Honestly, if it was slower, it could probably be made to be even more powerful and turn into a much more interesting positional unit. But right now, you can use it pretty easily in an army and walk around the map with it. You don't need warp prisms to move them around like reavers did.
People talk about 'babysitting colossi' and honestly it's just because Protoss get so careless with their 2.25-move siege unit. They're usually able to reposition it or move it away in time. Terran and Zerg are forced to be way more careful and cognizant of their tanks and broodlords. If Colossi were slower, Protoss would be much more careful about using them.
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Protoss armies don't sacrifice enough speed for its power. Other races' siege units are either crazy slow or need to become immobile (burrow or siege mode). Having a siege unit that moves around normally is bizarre, and the cliffwalk only makes it worse.
Honestly, if it was slower, it could probably be made to be even more powerful and turn into a much more interesting positional unit. But right now, you can use it pretty easily in an army and walk around the map with it. You don't need warp prisms to move them around like reavers did.
Reducing its speed without making it a proper positional unit only makes it even more boring and deathballish.
The problem with all of these 1.5-2.25 speed units (like Colossus, BC, Tempest, Carrier and Broodlord) is that they are in the "middle-of-the road" category where they are remotely close to being a positional unit while still being too slow to be out on the map and do "aggressive" non-allinish stuff.
To become a proper positional unit, it needs to be "sieged up" (read: locked into an immobilized state) where it becomes extremely cost efficient against a larger army size. But that's just not a small speed and numbers change, but a complete redesign. The only other alternative solution is to actually make it faster and balance it around being able to move out on the map while retreating if outnumbered.
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Why try and fix a bad design? I think the Colossus has too many flaws to fix. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses and start again from fresh to make something 'better'.
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On July 08 2015 05:44 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss armies don't sacrifice enough speed for its power. Other races' siege units are either crazy slow or need to become immobile (burrow or siege mode). Having a siege unit that moves around normally is bizarre, and the cliffwalk only makes it worse.
Honestly, if it was slower, it could probably be made to be even more powerful and turn into a much more interesting positional unit. But right now, you can use it pretty easily in an army and walk around the map with it. You don't need warp prisms to move them around like reavers did. Reducing its speed without making it a proper positional unit only makes it even more boring and deathballish. The problem with all of these 1.5-2.25 speed units (like Colossus, BC, Tempest, Carrier and Broodlord) is that they are in the "middle-of-the road" category where they are remotely close to being a positional unit while still being too slow to be out on the map and do "aggressive" non-allinish stuff. To become a proper positional unit, it needs to be "sieged up" (read: locked into an immobilized state) where it becomes extremely cost efficient against a larger army size. But that's just not a small speed and numbers change, but a complete redesign. The only other alternative solution is to actually make it faster and balance it around being able to move out on the map while retreating if outnumbered.
1.5 is not even close to 2.25. It's way way different. Unstimmed marines are 2.25. The Colossus moves significantly faster than BCs, Tempests, Carriers, Broodlords, and Thors. To just lump them all together is missing my entire point. Broodlords, Tempests, Carriers, and Reavers do not siege up and yet they are positional units so that's just random. (I would prefer not to get sidetracked into a discussion of what a 'positional unit' is. I'm not suggesting a complete redesign by any means.)
If the colossus moved nearly as slow as any of those other units, then its movement would be way more committed, and the army movement would be way more committed. It would be far more restrictive in terms of Protoss army movement in general. It would make the choice of Templar have more of a significant mobility advantage (at the cost of raw power), especially in PvP. Right now this advantage (if there is one) comes entirely from warp in.
Movement speed is a big change, and totally changes the feel of the unit. I do not consider it a minor change at all. The fact is that the colossus is strictly more mobile than the siege tank (which is also speed 2.25 but has to siege).
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Colossi is how it should be in LOTV. With a heavy adept comp, it's actually still quite good. Terran thinks they can just rush Colossi Maru style, but heavy adepts will shred you while doing so.
I swear, I say it all the time now, but it really seems like people that complain most about the game don't play enough to fully know what they're talking about. Super annoying.
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1.5 is not even close to 2.25. It's way way different.
Yes and its way worse because it just becomes even more deathballish. Ask your self this, can you justify a Colossus that moves at 1.5 as a unit that is extremely strong positional? Otherwise it will just be a slow moving deathball unit.
Broodlords, Tempests, Carriers, and Reavers do not siege up and yet they are positional units so that's just random.
Your using the term positional incorrectly in this context. In the context of siege units, postionally = Can defend one position extremely efficiently while relying as little as possible on critical mass.
Broods, Tempests, Thors, Carriers.... whatever you can name here are not capable of that. Reaver obviously moved even slower (around 1 movement speed I believe) so you could almost argue that the combination of a warp prism and a Reaver had some type of siege/unsiege-functionalty. On top of that, it was also different in design in several other ways from the Colossus and also benefited from being part of a different game.
Just nerfing the Colossus speed somewhat and buffing its core stats (somewhat) is a receipt for a disaster. If you have a very detailed plan on how you want to make the unit positional, that's great. But trust me, you have to go much further down than 1.5, and the safest solution is to let it be completely immobile once it enters its "High cost efficiency"-state.
But given the current design of the Colossus, it's essential to understand that the main reason for it being so amovish and deathballish is due to its lack of movement speed (not vice versa).
If the colossus moved nearly as slow as any of those other units, then its movement would be way more committed, and the army movement would be way more committed.
Wanna know why terran bio can move out on the map easily and protoss cannot with their robo units? Because bio units can escape and defend multiple locations at once due to their mobility. Colossus can't escape on the other hand. In fact, the protoss player has the most "commited" army out of any races.
If the Colossus was strong enough positionally so you could split them out all over the map --> That's one possible solution, but it requires huge design changes in multiple ways from its current state.
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Remove them from the game, they're boring and force stupid unit compositions.
On July 01 2015 01:58 ETisME wrote:
Colossus nerf makes sense given adept is pretty powerful.
But I think it could use some buff, afterall it is the key unit of protoss, you put lots of focus on it rather than watching a bunch of gateway units.
I really disagree with your idea here.
I feel like the gateway army gets a much more integral and fun role in the game due to the addition of the Adept and the fact that the Disruptor is a supplement to my main army, not the other way around (gateway army as a meatshield for the Colossus)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/strategy_games/starcraft_2/colossus_ownage.jpg)
