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So recently, as everyone must have noticed, no-one is using Colossi in PvZ, which is the consequence of redesigning the Swarm Host, thus effectively removing it from the match-up. It is interesting enough in itself that one of the most hated "imba A-move unit" is simply no longer used without any nerf; simply because there is a better alternative in the Blink Stalker-Sentry-Immortal, later Storm, composition. However, I would not like to discuss this, but the implications this might have in Legacy of the Void.
The Colossus in LotV (as of the current beta patch, at least) will be significantly nerfed. I fear that the Colossus may become more extinct than the Swarm Host is now. (Which some of you wouldn't mind, I know, but having a unit in the game that sees no use is just bad in my opinion.)
So the things to consider:
- If literally no-one makes Colossi in PvZ right now, why would anyone do so if they get a range and damage nerf?
- Would having Lurkers and Ravagers in the game somehow justify making Colossi? Remember Lurkers have a longer range then Colossi!
- With the addition of the Disruptor, wouldn't Protoss players rather make Disruptors instead of Colossi?
- If the number of Lurkers gets too high, wouldn't Protoss players (have to) switch to air, possibly using the buffed Carriers?
With those in mind, I'm almost sure that as things stand currently, chances are we will not see a single Colossus in LotV PvZ's. That is not necessarily a problem, but something that, I think, should be avoided if possible.
I also wonder if the reduced damage and range of the Colossus will switch the PvT meta towards Storm and Disruptors. It seems to me that Adepts are pretty much a core unit now in PvT with the shield upgrade, so if you already have a Twilight for the upgrade, you may want to complete the Templar tech with Storm. On the other hand, an Adept/Storm composition would be susceptible to Widow Mines, and Colossi can conviniently snipe Mines from afar (in HotS at least). I still wonder if Colossi would be the choice instead of Disruptors.
Finally, for PvP. Ever since the Tempest nerf, Colossi are more dominant in this match-up than ever, so PvP is the match-up where I least fear for the Colossus going extinct. However, the recent shield damage buff to Disruptors makes them almost one-shot a whole army on a lucky hit, making such a hit almost an immediate win.
Sure, such a hit should not really happen, and the damage of the Disruptor is less reliable than that of the Colossus, but you can still use the Disruptors to harass and to flank an army, landing that money hit.
Now what do you think about it? Because I think the Colossus is going to disappear from PvZ completely (it already has, in fact), and will likely be underused in the other two match-ups as well.
Do you guys agree? Do you think it would be a problem at all?
Yeah, I know this is a bit of theorycrafting and lots of things are still subject to change, but still, I don't want the Colossus to become the new Swarm Host.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm afraid to say it out loud, but maybe some of the nerfs could be reverted?
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I honestly think Colossi should just be removed, Protoss has enough AoE and the unit is just a-move.
I dont think there is another unit more a-move then colossi... you dont even need to make a concave or something, just pull a bit back and then a-move
I would also want Reaver instead of Disruptor.
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On June 28 2015 22:19 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I honestly think Colossi should just be removed, Protoss has enough AoE and the unit is just a-move.
I dont think there is another unit more a-move then colossi... you dont even need to make a concave or something, just pull a bit back and then a-move
I would also want Reaver instead of Disruptor.
Not true. In PvP colossi are the most positional-based unit you can find. Late game war of worlds are literally only about positioning and concaves.
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On June 28 2015 22:19 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I honestly think Colossi should just be removed, Protoss has enough AoE and the unit is just a-move.
I dont think there is another unit more a-move then colossi... you dont even need to make a concave or something, just pull a bit back and then a-move
I would also want Reaver instead of Disruptor.
There are also other ones too but they are not as bad as the Colossus. Day 9 once said in one of his dailies that the most nooby friendliest units are the Void Ray and the Thor. Maybe Zealots, Roaches and Battle Hellions fall in the same category but I think its ok with these Units since they are more of a meatshield Unit that act as a spearhead during an attack.
They don´t need to completely remove Colossi but rather redesign it so it doesn´t counter a concave. I think that´s the biggest problem with this Unit.
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Either one of the damage or range nerf was OK (maybe damage nerf too severe), but both ? Are you kidding me ?
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Right now they want to see some disruptor usage. They'll probably revert some of the nerfs when the game comes out.
I can't say I'm too pleased with the state of protoss splash damage right now because the whole hit or miss aspect of diruptors is very off-putting. I'm eager to see how they are going to rework the disruptor in the next patch.
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On June 28 2015 23:01 Geiko wrote:
Right now they want to see some disruptor usage. They'll probably revert some of the nerfs when the game comes out.
I can't say I'm too pleased with the state of protoss splash damage right now because the whole hit or miss aspect of diruptors is very off-putting. I'm eager to see how they are going to rework the disruptor in the next patch.
They said they wanted to diminish that hit or miss aspect, and their idea seems decent. I hope you're right and colossi don't just disappear in LotV. I know most people hate them, but when not en masse they introduce interesting dynamics.
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On June 28 2015 22:50 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 22:19 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I honestly think Colossi should just be removed, Protoss has enough AoE and the unit is just a-move.
I dont think there is another unit more a-move then colossi... you dont even need to make a concave or something, just pull a bit back and then a-move
I would also want Reaver instead of Disruptor. Not true. In PvP colossi are the most positional-based unit you can find. Late game war of worlds are literally only about positioning and concaves.
Thats still amoving
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Colossus is negating the use of concaves, is arguably boring and is severely nerfed in LotV. However, I like the visual design, walking over units and cliffs and I would like to see it redesigned ability-wise.
What if Colossus would lose its AOE ability (Adepts kind of imbue the gateway army enough that you can tech to templars and Disruptors and hold your ground) and gain more damage on it's single target beams? This way it would be better vs buildings and bigger units. Range would need to stay as in HotS or even +1 with single target damage.
Something like in this screenshot
+ Show Spoiler +
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@HotS: They are being played in PvZ, and of course both other matchups. You are dead wrong if you say that noone is playing them in PvZ, they are only played less which is pretty good for the game, given that before they were played in every match.
@LotV: I have no clue what blizzard's intentions exactly are for that unit. I agree that content that has been put in the game should have strategical value and the LotV Colossus does not look like it has any. The obvious solution would be to remove it together with all the other useless and badly designed units. But I feel like blizzard has changed their opinion on useless units and is now quite OK with some of them being left (intentionally?) useless (at the higher ranks).
Personally I would rather like to see a heavily redesigned Colossus, than have the game designed and balanced around the disruptor.
If the solution to making Colossi more viable becomes to restore the status HotS, than I don't really like that either. The Colossus needs to lose its air vulnerability and ability to combat whilst standing on top of other units.
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It's high time to make the Colossus into the positional unit that the Lurker and Siege Tank are. Increase range by 1 (6 to 7 and 9 to 10 with thermal lance), revert the damage nerf, increase shields by 50, and slow the movespeed down to ~1.0.
Then give it a "siege mode" like ability that concentrates it shields against air attacks, making it invulnerable to air units, but the unit can't move while in the mode, has a minimum range of 2-3, and its shields don't protect it against ground attacks.
Volia.
Tons of counter play opportunities. It goes into its "Siege Mode" and Vikings can't damage it from the air? Well they can land very close to it and it can't hit them back. You'll have to nerf the movespeed of Warp Prisms when carrying the Colossus and the pick up range too, but it'd be a fun change.
I don't like the coin flip damage that is the Disruptor.
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Range nerf is possibly to enable Lurkers.
The only use they have now, is when you're already far ahead, you just add them on and make the Death Ball push.
It's another problem they suddenly have to solve and it's still the best unit for forcing your way into their production.
Having a weaker Colossus, means you keep all the bad traits, while you don't really get to see the good traits of the unit.
Good Traits: Cliff Walking, AtA weakness, Flanking weakness, unique splash AoE.
Mb redesigning it's role as a smaller, weaker, but faster unit that can harass via. cliff walk abuse?
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The current stats feel like a placeholder, so I think Blizzard will eventually get around to changing it up at some point.
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On June 29 2015 00:54 eviltomahawk wrote:
The current stats feel like a placeholder, so I think Blizzard will eventually get around to chamging it up at some point.
AGreed... probably done on purpose to force other units to be used first
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On June 28 2015 23:34 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 22:50 Geiko wrote:On June 28 2015 22:19 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I honestly think Colossi should just be removed, Protoss has enough AoE and the unit is just a-move.
I dont think there is another unit more a-move then colossi... you dont even need to make a concave or something, just pull a bit back and then a-move
I would also want Reaver instead of Disruptor. Not true. In PvP colossi are the most positional-based unit you can find. Late game war of worlds are literally only about positioning and concaves. Thats still amoving
LOL, no... the example he cited is not a move.
Creating an arc and maintaining it isn't a moving, but it's not just the colo, in pvp maintaining an arc is true for the whole army (for the most part). Nothing really special about colo, I can see how it appears a move to you.
In other match ups I think this is more true.
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the collossus is the worst designed unit in the game and it should be either removed or kept useless.
Whenever collossi are built the game turns into a dance of two deathballs because the unit creates very onesided engagements. either the vikings/vipers are killed before the collossi are dead and the protoss destroys the terran/zerg or vice versa. Constant trading with collossus based armies is impossible because of this mechanic. You don't want to risk taking a bad engagement vs collossus based army because the one engagement is all that decides the outcome of the game.
Do multiprong aggression and kill 2 bases? Doesn't matter if this forces you into a bad engagement and you lose the game.
Once collossi are on the field all small skirmishes and multiprong harassment become irrelevant and everything that matters is the outcome of this one engagement.
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On June 28 2015 23:29 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 23:01 Geiko wrote:
Right now they want to see some disruptor usage. They'll probably revert some of the nerfs when the game comes out.
I can't say I'm too pleased with the state of protoss splash damage right now because the whole hit or miss aspect of diruptors is very off-putting. I'm eager to see how they are going to rework the disruptor in the next patch. They said they wanted to diminish that hit or miss aspect, and their idea seems decent. I hope you're right and colossi don't just disappear in LotV. I know most people hate them, but when not en masse they introduce interesting dynamics.
I have multiple filthy casual friends who primarily play Protoss because they think the Colossus is such a cool unit, aesthetically. I feel like we'd end up missing it if it were completely removed.
On June 29 2015 00:35 BronzeKnee wrote:
It's high time to make the Colossus into the positional unit that the Lurker and Siege Tank are. Increase range by 1 (6 to 7 and 9 to 10 with thermal lance), revert the damage nerf, increase shields by 50, and slow the movespeed down to ~1.0.
Then give it a "siege mode" like ability that concentrates it shields against air attacks, making it invulnerable to air units, but the unit can't move while in the mode, has a minimum range of 2-3, and its shields don't protect it against ground attacks.
I'm not sure about that last idea. You might have to flesh it out a bit more, because right now I'm not sure how it would improve the gameplay around the unit. It sounds like you'd just "siege" it whenever the opponent wants to dive in and pick it off with aerial units, and it would completely shut down their efforts to do so, no matter how skillful. The other parts seem like a good idea though, especially if you gave its attacks a bonus against structures. Right now, they're a bit flimsy in that role, even before the LotV nerf.
I don't like the coin flip damage that is the Disruptor.
Increase the number of coin flips, and decrease the weight of each coin, and coin flips start feeling pretty alright if you go far enough. It's the point where luck all kind of blends together and starts being a game of skill over who can manage those risks best, a la a high ground miss chance and the entire game of WC3.
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On June 29 2015 00:35 BronzeKnee wrote:
It's high time to make the Colossus into the positional unit that the Lurker and Siege Tank are. Increase range by 1 (6 to 7 and 9 to 10 with thermal lance), revert the damage nerf, increase shields by 50, and slow the movespeed down to ~1.0.
Then give it a "siege mode" like ability that concentrates it shields against air attacks, making it invulnerable to air units, but the unit can't move while in the mode, has a minimum range of 2-3, and its shields don't protect it against ground attacks.
Volia.
Tons of counter play opportunities. It goes into its "Siege Mode" and Vikings can't damage it from the air? Well they can land very close to it and it can't hit them back. You'll have to nerf the movespeed of Warp Prisms when carrying the Colossus and the pick up range too, but it'd be a fun change.
I don't like the coin flip damage that is the Disruptor.
Sounds a bit imba to be honest. Put them in warpprism. Siege in front of zerg base and voila.
Making units super strong but with a big drawback (such as very low speed) can be good design but it is VERY hard to balance.
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It's in a good place now. Has some use but things don't revolve around it anymore. Good unit for noobs to play War of the Worlds fantasy.
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On June 29 2015 03:14 Charoisaur wrote:
the collossus is the worst designed unit in the game and it should be either removed or kept useless.
Whenever collossi are built the game turns into a dance of two deathballs because the unit creates very onesided engagements. either the vikings/vipers are killed before the collossi are dead and the protoss destroys the terran/zerg or vice versa. Constant trading with collossus based armies is impossible because of this mechanic. You don't want to risk taking a bad engagement vs collossus based army because the one engagement is all that decides the outcome of the game.
Do multiprong aggression and kill 2 bases? Doesn't matter if this forces you into a bad engagement and you lose the game.
Once collossi are on the field all small skirmishes and multiprong harassment become irrelevant and everything that matters is the outcome of this one engagement.
I agree with this. I feel like the moment one side in any vP matchup starts building colossus, both sides start pulling all their units into one deathball. This is followed by total passivity on both sides as they build their ideal 200/200 composition. The only trading that goes on is when both players are donating units that they don't want in their 200/200 composition. After both sides are happy with their deathball, we see them circle each other until one side decides to start the engagement. 15 seconds late, one player GGs.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/strategy_games/starcraft_2/colossus_ownage.jpg)
