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On June 30 2015 01:56 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
I've given you a detailed description of exactly all the different kinds of NON a-moves you need to make with your Colossus.
The problem is that these moves you are talking about is something you do with every single unit. Even Roaches in ZvZ wars and everyone considers that amoves. Hence, your definition of amoving isn't inline with how the majority of the community views it. Your definition is way too literral while most people believe that you typically need to split, do intensive kiting, focus fire, pull away from focus fire in order for it not to be amoving. TLDR: Maintaining a concave and staying far away from enemy units doesn't make the unit "not amovish".
Then by that overly vague and meaningless definition almost every unit in the game is "A-move" and you shouldn't be isolating the Colossus.
It seems the only "problem" with the Colossus is that you don't like dying to it.
Seriously this "everything but Terran bio is a-move" mentality is not healthy.
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@Bronzeknee re: deathballs
The Protoss Deathball you describe doesn't in fact benefit by being a deathball. As a concept, the deathball needs to move together to work.
The reason the Colossus works well in a deathball is because it's big and expensive and requires a lot of babysitting. But if you can get a solid 140 supply ball of stuff going, it has enough protection to dish out massive damage without dying instantly.
Promoting different styles of play means having units that can work in various roles. The only reason you saw Deathballs is because there was no viable alternative. With the introduction of the disruptor and the adept, you have a Protoss army that is much stronger in small battles and can hold their own vs Terran and Zerg in a scrappy many bases harassy guerilla warfare type game.
Let's leave in the Colossus to provide an alternative to those that don't want to play that style. For every style there will be a style that counters it. And when something is broken beyound counters Blizzard steps in and changes the units/maps accordingly.
More styles of play > fewer styles of play.
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I'm honestly shocked that people want a stronger Colossus?
Simply from the gameplay point on its super boring to use, doesnt give the opponent a chance for fancy micro or any interesting reactions.
It strongholds the whole Protoss race to deathball and not have small armies here and there since you have to be super protective of it,
its forcing other units to be weaker , similar to forcefield.
It doesnt allow Protoss fun lategame transitions into Carriers for example, simply because the colossus already forces the counter to them, it forces totally 1 dimensional unit responses which just screams boring and bad design to me.
Honestly i want a full redesign(bisudagger had some fun ideas on the last page)
or just a removal (which obviously won't happen this far into the game).
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More styles of play > fewer styles of play.
More lame styles of play < Fewer lame styles of play.
There was a reason the old SH style was removed, becasue it was lame. Diversity should instead be rewarded through different interesting styles.
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Then by that overly vague and meaningless definition almost every unit in the game is "A-move" and you shouldn't be isolating the Colossus.
No, check the edit:
- Spliting
- Intensive kiting
- Heavy focus fire
- Pull away unit from focus fire
- Using abilities really well
(hence why I previously wrote that there was a bit of "non-amove"-micro in Colossus vs Colossus wars as it is actually possible to pull back injured Colossus).
The problem with your definition is that you don't keep a distinction between the verb "amove" and the adjective "amove"-unit. Your definition implies that if a unit in a scenario is doing something more than just amoving (the verb) --> Then it cannot be considered an amove"-unit, which simply isn't consistent with how most people use the adjective.
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@Bronzeknee re: deathballs
The Protoss Deathball you describe doesn't in fact benefit by being a deathball. As a concept, the deathball needs to move together to work.
The reason the Colossus works well in a deathball is because it's big and expensive and requires a lot of babysitting. But if you can get a solid 140 supply ball of stuff going, it has enough protection to dish out massive damage without dying instantly.
Promoting different styles of play means having units that can work in various roles. The only reason you saw Deathballs is because there was no viable alternative. With the introduction of the disruptor and the adept, you have a Protoss army that is much stronger in small battles and can hold their own vs Terran and Zerg in a scrappy many bases harassy guerilla warfare type game.
Let's leave in the Colossus to provide an alternative to those that don't want to play that style. For every style there will be a style that counters it. And when something is broken beyound counters Blizzard steps in and changes the units/maps accordingly.
More styles of play > fewer styles of play.
Agreed. I think if they did bring back the original colo there would have to be some type of Terran counter that they could reach in tier 2. Here is why:
Right now Adepts early harass can be orchestrated that 2 adepts can knock on your door by the time you have 4 marines which means adepts into robo into colo with the current warp prism would have no sincere answer from Terran. There would have to be a MASSIVE trip up by protoss in order for Terran to just get some sense of stability. I like how much protoss would have in terms of versatility if that were the case I can imagine like some serious checkmate moves possible from protoss that would be reminiscent of Blink = win days where 2 terrans were barely able to make it in top 32 GSL.
Edit: I would like to see colossus used like reavers with the warp prism upgrade use them to get in a good position drop to fire on the other army and pick up when they tried to get focused down also a retreating harass. I think that would be perfect TBH. we've seen this style of play with puck and a few others with the other colossus the major adjustment would probably be to allow 2 colo in one warp prism.
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On June 30 2015 00:31 DinoMight wrote:
I for one think that it should be okay to make a deathball if you want to.
Various play styles are what make the game interesting. If you have to play a certain style every time the options are limited and the game gets stale. Forcing only small engagements everywhere might not appeal to all players. I have a few friends who like to just make big armies and march across the map. There are people who like this.
Similarly, my own play style is much more harass focused. And the players that I like to watch are usually not the ones who are turtling to a deathball.
But when you nerf the Colossus into oblivion and tell Protoss "you must play this way" you're making the game shallower.
I don't. Deathballs should only be effective for players at the casual level or the people who don't have the apm to handle multiple engagements.
Deathballs are terrible for spectators. They lead to a very stale game where nothing happens for huge stretches of time. It doesn't make the game interesting at all for viewers.
I think the biggest disconnect in the SC2 community right now are between the spectators who don't play the game anymore but are still interested in watching awesome games between pro players versus the people who just want an easy way for their chosen race to win (see: people defending swarm hosts).
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The state of the Colossus is that it should have been removed and Protoss rebalanced accordingly 2-3 years ago.
It is a powerful AOE with a strange crippling weakness vs air that is devoid of micro, skillcap, or spectator fun/viewing.
Remove Colossus from the game, strengthen gateway units accordingly, the Disruptor is already a far superior counterpart to the Colossus for Robotics tech and is in need of a few tweaks more then design changes. All of the design changes in the world couldn't save the Colossus from being the A move noob friendly unit it is now.
Seriously, look at BW (I know I know we are tired of hearing this crap but it is true) to look at how awesome Protoss could be without the Colossus.
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Deathballs are terrible for spectators. They lead to a very stale game where nothing happens for huge stretches of time. It doesn't make the game interesting at all for viewers.
It's not even that they are bad for spectators. But Colossus are also boring to use and boring to play against.
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On June 29 2015 04:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:
It's in a good place now. Has some use but things don't revolve around it anymore. Good unit for noobs to play War of the Worlds fantasy. I agree in the sense that I think it's in an acceptable place, for those exact reasons, but I feel that it could be done better.
Here's an idea from the corresponding reddit OP that I thought was probably the most appealing idea I've yet seen on this topic:
"What is the Protoss Lacking? Anti-Air is a big thing that Protoss is missing (and Zerg -_-), as well as zone control unit similar to the Lurker or Siege Tank. They do have SOME zone control in the form of the Sentry, but not in a way that can be Aggressive like the Siege Tank or Lurker. Should the Colossus shoot air somehow? Should it have some sort of immobile, siege option, similar to other races siege options, or maybe the One-Goal Void-Ray from way back when?"
Like a cross between the Void Ray and the Liberator. Seriously, watch it. It's pretty cool to see.
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On June 30 2015 02:17 DinoMight wrote:
@Bronzeknee re: deathballs
The Protoss Deathball you describe doesn't in fact benefit by being a deathball. As a concept, the deathball needs to move together to work.
But it does? Sentries are pretty useless alone.
Regardless that is a semantical arguement but what I was getting at and what we can probably agree on is that a super strong group of units that synergize well should have some significant drawbacks, as Mech does (Siege Tanks aren't good when not in Siege mode and need protection when in Siege mode). The other races are good template here, Terran has Mech and Bio, while even though Zerg is more mobile in general. it has a similar dynamic between Muta/Ling/Bane play and Roach/Hydra play.
Right now with Protoss there is only one style, stuck somewhere in-between Terran's Mech and Bio. It is very powerful in the straight up fight, but maybe not as powerful as Mech, though much more mobile, but not nearly as mobile as Terran Bio.
And it is a horrible place to be, and makes balancing Terran difficult, because Mech needs to be more powerful than Protoss in a straight up fight, while Bio needs to be extremely mobile to make up for the fact they Protoss is relatively mobile and powerful.
And we've seen the result of this decision, Medivacs flying faster, Hellbats tanking Zealots ect.... stratification of Terran styles (and to a lesser extent Zerg styles) because Protoss has only a single viable style that is supposed to do everything.
So by doing what I said to Colossus (and Gateway units in another thread), we'd actually increase the number of playstyles. Either you'd go for Colossus with Blink Stalkers support or Phoenix and Zealot support (with the Phoenixes or Blink Stalkers providing mobility and harass opportunities, like Hellions and Banshees do for Mech) or for Charge Zealots, Sentries, High Templar and Archons with more limited Stalker support. The difference in playstyle would be obvious: with Gateway units only they could be warped in anywhere and moves quickly. But the Colossus playstyle would be slow and methodical.
And the big change here is you wouldn't have to switch out of one style because your opponent wouldn't be able to hard counter it entirely. Currently if you open Colossus you're on a timer until that is hard countered by Vikings and you need HT's, and the same can be said about opening with HT's once Ghosts hit the field you need Colossus.
In that sense, Protoss would be more like Terran with rigid styles (though still not as rigid as Terran due to the upgrade structure) and less like Zerg (who in fact, are at the moment even more rigid than Protoss due to melee vs range upgrades).
I just need to finish up COTH for WC3 and then get around making my own version of SC2.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Imo Colossus should just replace the immortal.
Give it the same stats, an activate-able shield and you've got the same unit just looking MUCH COOLER.
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Here's an idea from the corresponding reddit OP that I thought was probably the most appealing idea I've yet seen on this topic:
"What is the Protoss Lacking? Anti-Air is a big thing that Protoss is missing (and Zerg -_-), as well as zone control unit similar to the Lurker or Siege Tank. They do have SOME zone control in the form of the Sentry, but not in a way that can be Aggressive like the Siege Tank or Lurker. Should the Colossus shoot air somehow? Should it have some sort of immobile, siege option, similar to other races siege options, or maybe the One-Goal Void-Ray from way back when?"
Like a cross between the Void Ray and the Liberator. Seriously, watch it. It's pretty cool to see.
I think this would be a good exploration but I think it should be one or the other shoot air only or shoot ground only lol (There isn't anyone getting my beloved goliath before Terran -.- LOL)
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On June 30 2015 03:54 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +Here's an idea from the corresponding reddit OP that I thought was probably the most appealing idea I've yet seen on this topic:
"What is the Protoss Lacking? Anti-Air is a big thing that Protoss is missing (and Zerg -_-), as well as zone control unit similar to the Lurker or Siege Tank. They do have SOME zone control in the form of the Sentry, but not in a way that can be Aggressive like the Siege Tank or Lurker. Should the Colossus shoot air somehow? Should it have some sort of immobile, siege option, similar to other races siege options, or maybe the One-Goal Void-Ray from way back when?"
Like a cross between the Void Ray and the Liberator. Seriously, watch it. It's pretty cool to see. I think this would be a good exploration but I think it should be one or the other shoot air only or shoot ground only lol (There isn't anyone getting my beloved goliath before Terran -.- LOL)
Oh jesus, no, that would definitely still only shoot ground if implemented on the Colossus. I should've specified that more clearly. I believe that the Void Ray in OG didn't actually damage both ground and air units at the same time either. In fact, I think that charging effect was limited to when it attacked an area of ground. It was really quite similar to the Liberator.
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The Colossus will never go extinct because it's an "imba A-move unit," with splash, and has been since WoL Beta. A game without the Colossus is a better game overall. A game with a weaker Colossus and better alternatives is an exponentially better game overall.
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I havent watch any starcraft for the past 2-3 months and I must say i'm shocked to read that NO ONE is building colossus anymore..
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Please just remove colossi T_T
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Goofy idea here, reinstate HOTS stats with a default range of 7 instead of 6, BUT, replace extended thermal lance with an upgrade that makes the colossus shorter so it can't be hit by anti air attacks but still looks fairly tall (about thor height) with this change the colossus is significantly more vulnerable to marine-marauder/roach-hydra but doesn't get murdered by vikings, corruptors etc. with the shortened range
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On June 30 2015 08:57 sM.Zik wrote:
I havent watch any starcraft for the past 2-3 months and I must say i'm shocked to read that NO ONE is building colossus anymore..
This is absolutely false.
Players are still building Colossi in all matchups. Mass Blink is the new trend in PvZ so Colossus use in that matchup has declined a bit but they are still used extensively in PvT and PvP. And still in PvZ...
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 30 2015 22:14 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 08:57 sM.Zik wrote:
I havent watch any starcraft for the past 2-3 months and I must say i'm shocked to read that NO ONE is building colossus anymore.. This is absolutely false. Players are still building Colossi in all matchups. Mass Blink is the new trend in PvZ so Colossus use in that matchup has declined a bit but they are still used extensively in PvT and PvP. And still in PvZ...
That's because he's reading in LotV section  In HotS you cannot play without colossi a long macro game as you stated(exception for blink PvZ).
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EPT
