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I'd rather have the Ultra buffed even further and have the 2/3 Ultralisk be added.
Remember, way back when, people? Back in the beginning of your RTS days? When you finally built that Mammoth tank, how awesome that was? That's how ultras felt when you were just starting out in SC as well. Like "wow, I finally got to build this huge thing. I'm gonna go wreck some shit now!"
Maybe it's just because I've been playing Grey Goo, but I really like the legendary unit idea. Remember that amazing Mothership chant during HuK vs SelecT in 2010? I'm into that.
I know we're always addressing every item from an eSport perspective, but I think there's still room for *fun* in SC2.
To TLO's point - having the performance of ZvT entirely predicated on whether or not there's a Drone out is binary and hard-counter and unfun. I completely agree with the 2/3 Ultra, maybe called the Megalisk.
I just also want a gigantic Oh Shit unit too.
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Bisutopia19365 Posts
On June 24 2015 18:33 Gowerly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 18:07 Ej_ wrote:On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote:
I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all.
I mean
- Fungal doesn't slow an ultra
- MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra
So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra?
Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units. drones don't walk, they hover If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently.
Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
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On June 24 2015 22:41 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 18:33 Gowerly wrote:On June 24 2015 18:07 Ej_ wrote:On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote:
I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all.
I mean
- Fungal doesn't slow an ultra
- MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra
So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra?
Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units. drones don't walk, they hover If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently. Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
hovering means that drones maintain the same speed on and off creep 
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Of course they should do that with the ultralisk. TLO is right on the money.
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On June 24 2015 22:41 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 18:33 Gowerly wrote:On June 24 2015 18:07 Ej_ wrote:On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote:
I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all.
I mean
- Fungal doesn't slow an ultra
- MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra
So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra?
Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units. drones don't walk, they hover If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently. Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
TIL.
I was a filthy Total Annihilation player, so the intricacies of SC + BW are lost on me.
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Bisutopia19365 Posts
On June 24 2015 23:02 Gowerly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 22:41 BisuDagger wrote:On June 24 2015 18:33 Gowerly wrote:On June 24 2015 18:07 Ej_ wrote:On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote:
I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all.
I mean
- Fungal doesn't slow an ultra
- MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra
So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra?
Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units. drones don't walk, they hover If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently. Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games. TIL. I was a filthy Total Annihilation player, so the intricacies of SC + BW are lost on me.
Well than praise Bisu I'm here to inform people of all the greatness from SC1 and SC2!
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On June 24 2015 08:16 Hider wrote:
I agree with the analysis (as most others do), but I am not sure you really need that many other changes (like changing HP). I think all it needs is higher off creep movemetn speed and lower movement speed (from its HOTS state).
It needs to be smaller as well.
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On June 24 2015 22:41 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 18:33 Gowerly wrote:On June 24 2015 18:07 Ej_ wrote:On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote:
I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all.
I mean
- Fungal doesn't slow an ultra
- MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra
So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra?
Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units. drones don't walk, they hover If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently. Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
Wasnt the important part of hover that they could be glide microed the same way as air units? Thats not the case in sc2 thou. Hover does not do anything.
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the ghost change is silly but I don't like the idea of a small ultralisk, I think it should be beefy and big.
The idea I always liked most concerning them was letting them walk over other zerg units, like colossi walk over protoss units. Slight visual redesign with longer legs and this should be possible.
Otherwise just tweak a bit and remove that silly ghost ability. Give ghosts like a lockdown for biological units instead or something. Ie, something that will only be good vs zerg anyway and has niche uses elsewhere.
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On June 24 2015 08:38 banjoetheredskin wrote:
With the decreased size, I'm assuming that also means you want to get rid of the massive tag? Or leave it because it should still be able to crush force fields?
A reduced sized ultralisk will still be way bigger than say.. an archon or colossus :-)!
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Let's be real about the gameplay with an ultralisk for a moment:
There is nothing fun about it. All it's epicness comes from it projecting this awesome picture of an unbeatable meat-fortress in your head. But there is nothing that you can do with an ultralisk that would make it cool. Even more, since it isn't ranged like a Colossus or Thor, you cannot even targetfire or do some basic micro with it. It's bad with drop micro. And faster than transports, so combat dropping for extra speed doesn't exist. The unit is plain and boring as it is currently. The only thing it has going is that it is "epic".
TLO's idea goes into the direction of making it a little less of a clunky meatball. It's not something that makes the ultralisk awesome, but it is the right direction and already much further than blizzard would ever experiment with.
What melee units - all of them besides banelings - really need is some fundamental mechanic that makes you want to control them more. Zerglings kind of get by because they are faster than everything else, so they can engage and disengage at will - but only one unit in the game can be fastest, so other melee units can't have that going for them. Banelings explode, which is also kind of cool. Zealots and Ultralisks? They are garbage unfun units, as would be any other melee and close combat unit (e.g. hellbats, to some degree roaches, though they already have quite some okish range to allow for basic kiting and targetfiring) that one would want to design without giving them some fundamental control potential as ranged units have through targetfire and kite mechanics. (examples for such mechanics would be pushing or overunning opponents)
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People have characterized HotS Ultra as practically worthless. Yet in high level casts I have repeatedly seen late game Zerg use half a dozen Ultras to crush a maxed Terran mech army, scything through siege tanks like a knife through butter. It isn't a guaranteed hard counter since positioning is key, the Ultras need space to maneuver and surface area to attack, so the Zerg wants to avoid chokes, maintain good creep spread and use the threat of blinding cloud to encourage tanks to spread out. This strikes me as balanced and fun gameplay.
In the HotS challenge matches I note that in the Terran unit counter exercise Marines are touted as the counter to Ultras with their ability to kite. For shit players like me this is quite hard, but rewarding when you get it right.
So in HotS it seems clear that Ultras counter mech and bio counters Ultras, and the play and counter play potential seems pretty good. Marauders make bio even more effective vs Ultras, but if you dilute your marine ball with too many marauders then you leave yourself open to other counters, plus Marauders are already nerfed in LotV anyway, plus Zerg also has loads of disable casting support units whereas Terran has none.
The issue I have with the LotV changes is it isn't at all clear what vision Blizzard are chasing. If in HotS Ultras counter Mech and bio counters Ultras then what is the logic behind buffing Ultra armour to the point where bio is also useless and Ultras counters both bio _and_ mech?
The same inconsistency is evident in the unit that Blizzard appears to think should be the new Terran counter to Ultras. In HotS Ghosts are not a counter to Ultras at all, with the Ultra armour buff the new drone gimmick still doesn't make Ghosts an actual counter to Ultras, it just means that as long as you have some Ghosts you might not be much worse off than you were in HotS, but even this is tempered by the fact that also having to build these very expensive and slow bio units will dilute the rest of your army and increases the amount of button pushing micro you have to manage.
The removal of snipe also creates an additional asymmetry. In HotS Ghosts had two useful functions against Protoss, EMP drains spellcaster energy and also drains shields, and Ghosts also had two useful functions against Zerg, EMP drains spellcaster energy and snipe.
With the removal of snipe though it seems that Ghosts will actually be less useful against Zerg but that you'll still have to have them anyway because of this new highly artificial drone mechanic whereby they are the only solution to Ultras now hard countering both mech and bio!
I don't see any of this creating potential for more fun gameplay, just more no-decision hard-counters and busywork. I think it's sad that Ghosts don't get used much and I'd like to see them (and BC) buffed with an additional ability (even just perma-cloak for Ghosts would be nice), but despite the fact that they are hardly used in their current form I'd rather see Ghosts and Ultras left as they are than see this gimmicky fiasco of a drone mechanic go live.
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Making ultras smaller would be just another instance of giving up on a concept. We have had enough of that in SC2. Everytime Blzzard came up with something that was not just another shooting unit, the different thing about it got hated and eventually nerfed, or not even realized fully. Void single-target charge-up, Immortal immortality, tempest enormous range, you name it ... even siege tanks are a victim of this. Everyone wants everything to be as much the same bland thing as possible in the name of balance (or, if they don't want to admit that, it's in the name of "design", whatever this stupidest buzzword of the year is supposed to mean).
Ultras should be the super-beefy terror-inducing mamoths - nigh unkillable in the open, however struggling to get close when obstalces are present and of course helpless to air. How they die to bio in a split second in HoTS is just laughable and should be fixed so that they get their glory back. No stupid drones, no cheats around the true essence of the unit. If that really makes balance issues, just lower the fucking damage of the thing, increase resource or supply cost ... do essentially anything that is NOT making it easy to kill because that is the only real quality that is supposed to set it apart!
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On June 24 2015 23:07 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 08:16 Hider wrote:
I agree with the analysis (as most others do), but I am not sure you really need that many other changes (like changing HP). I think all it needs is higher off creep movemetn speed and lower movement speed (from its HOTS state). It needs to be smaller as well.
Oh typo, i meant this:
I think all it needs is higher off creep movement speed and lower model size (from its HOTS state).
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I like this idea.
As much as I like being a late game a move zerg lol, I would let go of that for Dario's suggestion
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@opisska
I don't know about the other changes you mentioned but I don't recall massed players clamouring for the Immortal to be nerfed. My impression is that the godawful change to the Immortal shield was dreamed up by Blizzard all by themselves (and I suspect some of the others were too).
Regarding your views on the Ultra I agree with the sentiment of your post, but when you say Ultras die in a split second to bio just how many Ultras and bio are you talking about? If you are talking about 1 Ultra unsupported vs 10 or more marines/marauders then I think it dying pretty quickly is not unreasonable and should be the expected outcome.
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Drone or in other words, Terrans corruption ability. Mandatory to be used to make something work. Unless if no one uses it the unit will get a 20% damage buff against Massive.
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Reduce their armor (and health a little bit), but bring back burrow charge and allow them to be non-blocked by non-large units.
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TLO's thoughts are quite deep. However, if we (we as "we the community") cwant to see more radical changes in Lotv, why not using the ultralisk and see what terran uses against it?
If I understand TLO right, he does not like the ultralisk to be a game ender versus a bio composition. I don't know if that would be so much an issue in pro games; terran players probably get better scouting the ultralisk tech and reacting accordingly in time.
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Wow dude. A zerg player wanting a zerg nerf. What a real motherfucker. Big ups TLO!
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EPT
