On June 26 2015 11:33 NKexquisite wrote: How are you supposed to deal w/ 8+ ultralisks? Are you just dead if you play Terran? Sounds like it from what Im reading.
This thing of adding "+" at the end of number to make them look larger is starting to get silly. :/ But yes "8+" armour ultras are very good vs bio. 8 armour is hard enough, but then when you go into 9 or 10 it gets silly.
On June 25 2015 23:41 TheFish7 wrote: I think brood war is a good case study supporting the smaller sized ultra. If you look at engagements in BW, where unit AI was pretty bad compared to SC2, you rarely see ultras getting stuck behind other units, stuck on terrain, etc. They're also nice and fast off creep. They're so much more useful because you can actually get them into position.
Completely random but that casters voice reminds me of Randal from Clerks lol =+ Show Spoiler +
1:20 into the clip. Casters just missin the Jersey accent.
Back to the topic, I'd be curious to see some showmatches with a 2/3 ultra, or even just a smaller unit model to see if that fixes the derping. Also would be interesting to see the speed off creep adjusted
On June 25 2015 23:42 ejozl wrote: Immortal with mobility&range? We don't call DT's immortal, because we cannot catch it, I'm pretty sure the purpose is that you keep hitting this guy and he simply won't die. Would love to see a lower range version of this unit.
Name is irrelevant here. The goal should be to create a fun microable unit that fits well into the protoss composition.
Yeah, I gotta echo this. I love the lore as much as the next guy, but retooling the Immortal to be more "immortal" (when it already is plenty that for its cost) is just nonsensical.
What's next, Reapers don't reap enough?
I guess you can make Immortals more "immortal" if you make them far less destructive. Immos have better DPS than VoidRays, that are "Glass cannon" type units. And Voidrays are more expensive and more fragile.
Immortals have around 14 base DPS and 35 DPS vs armored, the same as a Battlecruiser. For comparaison, an Ultralisk has 40DPS. It makes very little sense to have that much DPS on a "supposed" mid-game unit that costs only 100 gas. Immortals are more "Armor Destroyers" than Immortals. But if you reduce the DPS vs armor notably, you can make it fairly more tanky, specially vs Roach/Hydra/Stalkers/Marauders, and less "HighCost huge damage", which is the fail of most protoss units.
In fact, Immortal shields only resist 10 hits, which takes normally 1 volley from a little pack of burst-based units, and that happens in a matter of 1-2 seconds. The lower the attack speed of the units you face, the better immortals are, and more "immortals" they feel. Specially because you will tear them in a matter of seconds.
Hardened shields block a relatively small % of the damage from Roach/Hydra/Stalker/Marauders and shields deplete almost isntantly, compared to the ammount of damage it blocks from high-damage units that attack slower (Tempests, DTs, Archons) and the time it takes to deplete their shields.
Less insane DPS = slight decrease in cost and production time, better tanking, more "immortal" and 5-8 immortal packs instead of 2-3.
Less "Terrible Terrible damage, high cost units" better game, less all-in / win or lose in 1 battle.
Ultras definitely need a speed buff, and increasing their ability to be microed is obviously a good thing. I agree that a armor-decreasing spell is very esoteric.
I wouldn't mind seeing more nukes, but as is, it's very hard to figure out what's being nuked. Putting spores & spines at every base is quite expensive, then getting your spores or overseers blinded seems incredibly strong.
Some kind of adjustment would be needed so zerg can have a chance to react to the nukes, and not just suddenly lose 2-3 bases full of drones to split up ghosts with nukes. Maybe increase the size of the red dot so it's easier to spot or something...
On June 26 2015 11:33 NKexquisite wrote: How are you supposed to deal w/ 8+ ultralisks? Are you just dead if you play Terran? Sounds like it from what Im reading.
no but you might have a problem if you expect to wreck everything from early to late game with only bio/mines/medivacs like usual. you actually have to scout the zergs tech (scans are useful from what i've heard) and then react unit-comp-wise to the zerg teching to ultras.
is there really any need for this stupid ghost buff? why not give terrans "some time to adjust to the new situation"? just like zerg was given plenty of time to adjust to the triple terran buff and the sh nerf. for example, terrans have the cyclon right? the fast thing with the stupid auto cast lock on function and nice dps right? and the liberator, the thing that oneshots everything within that green circle.
Why are they so afraid of copying brood war? Brood war ultralisks actually functioned quite well. Just make them smaller and slightly faster off creep for christs sake. We don't need a math equation fix, except in that 3/3 marauders and tanks (v mech) kill ultras far too quickly for something that is supposed to be "beefy" in HotS.
In fact, just make brood war with better graphics, ai pathing, unlimited unit boxing, and multiple production structure selection
MUCH more depth. Way beyond the simple model of make huge deathball, crush a single engagement, win.
Why are they so afraid of copying brood war? Brood war ultralisks actually functioned quite well. Just make them smaller and slightly faster off creep for christs sake. We don't need a math equation fix, except in that 3/3 marauders and tanks (v mech) kill ultras far too quickly for something that is supposed to be "beefy" in HotS.
My bet is that they want Ultralisk to hardcounter bio play in straight up engagements. But bio play (once it gets the new dropupgrade) are much more mobile than the Ultralisk and thus you can win through multitasking. In order to win straight up engagements, you can get Ghosts.
The issue with their logic is that noone actually desires that type of gameplay. Noone wants to be forced to use a boring spellcaster in order to fight against Ultralisk.
And zergs don't want an unmicroable amove Ultralisk that cannot be killed in straight up engagements while having to chase drops all around the map (and thus indirectly be forced into Mutalisks to deal with the drops).
As you point out, the proper solution is so simple:
(1) Faster off-creep Ultras (2) Lower-model size
With regards to the Ghost, yes Snipe is awfully flawed, but this armor reducing drone thing is not the correct solution. I don't think a skillshot would fit the unit idea (for various reasons), but what about a defensive ability that boosts your own units?
I know I'm no pro here but it feels really crappy to take the tankiness away from the ultra and force a Zerg to rely on some other (less efficient) way to deal with the gobs and gobs of bio they face.
I thought the anti-armor drone was an "OK" way to get ghosts involved in the game again. It's not like that's their only use. Maybe if people felt compelled to use them they're realize they have other tools in their arsenal that are worth the investment.
The way it is now, Ultras are an "in your face" counter to bio and turn the game around. Terran goes from a bio parade pressure to drops everywhere to punish the Zergs immobility. Any game I've played as ZvT has generally gone like so:
Terran harass/scout > Zerg defends and drones > Zerg harass/map control > Terran defends > Terran drop harass > Zerg air or lurker > Terran bio push - constant pressure > Zerg holds or dies > Zerg T3 (ultras) > Zerg pressures and looks for big fight > Terran has enough to stop head on assault or resorts to massive pronged attack strategy.
It has usually felt quite fluid and fast-paced. I like that. I feel changing the ultra will ruin what is (for me, at least) a fun match up with a lot of dynamic gameplay.
Reduce creep modifier from 1,3 -> 1,15 Improve off creep speed by 5% from 2,9531 to 3,1 New On creep speed from: 3,83903 -> 3,396065
The supposed new on-creep speed of 3.396069375 (to be precise) ÷ 1.15 = 2.953125, which is supposedly not the off-creep speed in Dario's mind. If off-creep speed is supposedly increased to this 3.1, and the new creep multiplier for ultralisks is to be 1.15, this would make the on-creep would be 3.565(+ whatever decimals because it probably wouldn't actually have been exactly 3.1 ). 3.565898 by my reckoning.
On June 24 2015 09:05 Charoisaur wrote: passive effect? why not an active ability? Maybe something like a spell you have to activate and then your ultras do 10% more damage for 5 seconds. I should work for blizzard!
Charoisaur, I believe everything I've ever seen you type is garbage. Is that arrogance that causes you to think your reasoning makes you ideal for Blizzard, or is it that you think poorly of Blizzard, so you wish to amplify their mistakes? Active abilities for the sake of having more active abilities does not necessarily make the game a more skill-based one, certainly doesn't make it more fun and forces "micro' that does not feel like micro, or look like micro. More active abilities instead of positioning and actual careful and/or fancy control of the units is impressive. Pressing a button doesn't always have the same "wow" factor (stupid term, sorry), let alone when that's what nearly all the micro becomes. That's exactly what we don't need more of, I though this was pretty much the consensus by now (or years ago).
EDIT: Unless you were being sarcastic... In that case, one not-rubbish post for a change.
On June 30 2015 15:16 Mjolnir wrote:I thought the anti-armor drone was an "OK" way to get ghosts involved in the game again. It's not like that's their only use. Maybe if people felt compelled to use them they're realize they have other tools in their arsenal that are worth the investment.
This is self-evidently not the case. Entire tournaments have run without a single player building a single Ghost, and if the highest rated players in the game don't consider them a useful investment then who's to say they are wrong?
You encourage a unit's use by giving it some genuine utility. An arbitrary gimmick that forces the unit to be created since it is the only hard counter to another unit is a lame approach that lacks depth.
Something else to consider is visual spam. In a large TvZ fight you can have Ravens spamming sentry drones, seeker missiles and point defense turrets, Infesters puking infested Terrans all over the battlefield and the whole thing overlaid with blinding cloud and blobs of air units. It's hard enough to see what's going on as it is, do we really need more drones being spammed out, there has to be a better way.
I don't think most people see making Ultras a bit smaller and faster as a nerf, the intent is to make it easier for them to engage effectively. They are already reasonably tanky, in the light of the Marauder nerf I think the 8 armour buff is unnecessary, it would be doubly unnecessary if siege tank splash damage were toned down a bit in line with the suggestions in the Mech Fixes thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/488487-mech-fixes
neato writeup. I really don't like blizzard just adding a bunch of 1 click things and calling it increasing the micro, it just doesn't look or feel cool to me. nexus cannon, void damage, armor drone, i mean is it really a thoughtful/interesting interaction? I hate to be overly critical to the blizzard team though
On June 28 2015 17:59 Jwrath wrote: Why are they so afraid of copying brood war? Brood war ultralisks actually functioned quite well. Just make them smaller and slightly faster off creep for christs sake. We don't need a math equation fix, except in that 3/3 marauders and tanks (v mech) kill ultras far too quickly for something that is supposed to be "beefy" in HotS.
My guess is that they want ultralisks to look impressive, like Thors, Battlecruisers or Carriers. They want to give Zerg one huge super late game unit so that all the little Zerg newbies can get wet dreams when they are thinking about it.
But I personally think that this is just against the zerg design and doesnt feel zergy at all.
On July 12 2015 18:09 BreakfastBurrito wrote: neato writeup. I really don't like blizzard just adding a bunch of 1 click things and calling it increasing the micro, it just doesn't look or feel cool to me. nexus cannon, void damage, armor drone, i mean is it really a thoughtful/interesting interaction? I hate to be overly critical to the blizzard team though
In general, if you feel overly critical, try to be constructive by suggesting how it can be done better. Then it turns into a helpful suggestion instead of criticism. So in this case, what properties should a thoughtful/interesting/cool interaction have in your mind? Tricky question though! :o
On June 30 2015 15:16 Mjolnir wrote:I thought the anti-armor drone was an "OK" way to get ghosts involved in the game again. It's not like that's their only use. Maybe if people felt compelled to use them they're realize they have other tools in their arsenal that are worth the investment.
This is self-evidently not the case. Entire tournaments have run without a single player building a single Ghost, and if the highest rated players in the game don't consider them a useful investment then who's to say they are wrong?
You encourage a unit's use by giving it some genuine utility. An arbitrary gimmick that forces the unit to be created since it is the only hard counter to another unit is a lame approach that lacks depth.
Something else to consider is visual spam. In a large TvZ fight you can have Ravens spamming sentry drones, seeker missiles and point defense turrets, Infesters puking infested Terrans all over the battlefield and the whole thing overlaid with blinding cloud and blobs of air units. It's hard enough to see what's going on as it is, do we really need more drones being spammed out, there has to be a better way.
I don't think most people see making Ultras a bit smaller and faster as a nerf, the intent is to make it easier for them to engage effectively. They are already reasonably tanky, in the light of the Marauder nerf I think the 8 armour buff is unnecessary, it would be doubly unnecessary if siege tank splash damage were toned down a bit in line with the suggestions in the Mech Fixes thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/488487-mech-fixes
It's self-evidently not the case because Ghosts were nerfed into oblivion. Before they were nerfed, you saw them all the time. If you give people a reason to make them, they will.
As it stands now (and for the last few years), why would Terran want to do anything other than 4M bio when it solves every problem a Terran has?
EPT
). 3.565898 by my reckoning.
