Nice post, it would be amazing to see testing with the suggested Ultra.

But even just testing a plus 3 armor upgrade instead of plus 4 would be better than that silly drone Blizzard introduced. The ghost should get a better Snipe or Lockdown.

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 24 2015 17:37 GMT

#104

This is really no different from collosus and viking, or templar and ghost relationships. I too don't want the game to be hard counter based but that's what blizzard goes for. If P has collosus and T has no viking it's a slaughter, same timing for storm, you need to have ghost out on time, the ultralisk is following the same formula, ultras and no ghosts is slaughter. At least T has liberator to deal with ultras, no alternative is available for collosus or templars, you just need to get vikings and ghosts out on time to deal with P.

Haighstrom

United Kingdom206 Posts

June 24 2015 18:27 GMT

#105

I agree that the ghost drone is a poor design choice and the LOTV ultra is too strong vs Terran right now, so something should be changed, but I don't like the counter suggestion because purely from an aesthetic point of view (c.f. the HOTS intro video) I like the concept of the ultra as the biggest unit in the game.

Fran_

United States1024 Posts

June 24 2015 18:54 GMT

#106

Solid post by TLO. The new ghost ability is very uninspired.

Fran_

United States1024 Posts

June 24 2015 18:56 GMT

#107

On June 25 2015 02:37 w3jjjj wrote:
If P has collosus and T has no viking it's a slaughter, same timing for storm, you need to have ghost out on time,

Unless you micro like Maru

404AlphaSquad

839 Posts

June 24 2015 19:05 GMT

#108

People complain for 5 years about the ultralisk clunkiness due to their size. Blizzard wont change that. They will try EVERYTHING else before they do anything about their size. Even if it means buffing it by such a ridiculous amounts that the other races need certain spells to do anything against them.

DinoMight

United States3725 Posts

June 24 2015 19:10 GMT

#109

I think you can leave the HOTS ultra and the Marauder nerf and be fine. TBH.

But anyway, well written TLO. I could agree with your changes as well.

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

June 24 2015 19:27 GMT

#110

On June 25 2015 04:10 DinoMight wrote:
I think you can leave the HOTS ultra and the Marauder nerf and be fine. TBH.

But anyway, well written TLO. I could agree with your changes as well.

Pretty much this.
I think the Ghost Drone will mess up a lot of things big time. People keep on talking about its interaction with the ultralisk and how it is probably going to be necessary and that sounds true and aweful enough. But the drone sounds like it's going to wreck every bigger unit in the game big time in combination with bio. Like Colossi, Thors, Battlecruisers, Immortals, Broodlords, Carriers, Tempests may all become plainly unplayable if Marines and Marauders do 50 - 100% extra damage to them after a simple tagging. Not as if you couldn't overrun or drop into those units anyways with HotS bio to begin with, but it enforces the issues that players (of Zerg and Protoss) have been voicing since 2010. Play style X against marines, or fuck you.

effecto

France142 Posts

June 24 2015 19:54 GMT

#111

Thanks TLO, good insights. Relevant stuff, I think progamers have a good sense of creativity and they should share it more often!

Riquiz

Netherlands402 Posts

June 24 2015 21:00 GMT

#112

Hmm,
I'd rather see the ultralisk stay the big clunky beefball it is now.
6 supply feels much for what it does, but that happens a lot with zerg supply T_T

The 2/3 ultralisk seems like a pretty shitty idea.
Just give us better zerglings ... ?
Yea, i'll pass for this one, thanks for putting in the time and effort though.

Obeast96

United States106 Posts

June 24 2015 21:24 GMT

#113

So basically TLO wants the ghost to have the Brood War medic ability/grenade launcher......that actually sounds great. Though the ghost would have to be able to use it while painting the nuke since overseers and observers are hard to target otherwise. Another thing I would want is some changes to the nuke. Perhaps increasing the amount of time the nuke takes to land and increasing the damage of the nuke or having a radiation effect that does damage over time after a nuclear detonation.

Nightwishone

Italy391 Posts

June 24 2015 22:56 GMT

#114

I don't know... Resurrecting ultras as units while leaving battlecruisers to rust in the 'half failed revamps' bin

I like the idea and the analysis.

nachtkap

Germany195 Posts

June 24 2015 22:58 GMT

#115

Sidenote:
As for the Ghost, just a random thought. How about instead the drone, give them a 100 or 125 energy blinding grenade that can temporarily disable a detector. Cause you know, we haven't seen enough Nukes since I switched to Zerg.

I wasnt prepared that this good article would have good, funniest and concise part at the end.
It changed the article quality from really good to great =).

Pontius Pirate

United States1557 Posts

June 24 2015 23:22 GMT

#116

Okay, while I was stoned last night, I realized that what TLO wants is a tier 2.5/early 3 melee unit that can help bridge the gap from melee upgrade styles of Zerg play into a solidly tier 3 composition. In BW, this was achieved by the much-faster and splashless Ultralisks being more of a component and less of the core of the tier 3 Zerg army, while the Defiler served more as the core of the army, being the spellcaster that determined the swing of every battle. In LotV, the Ultralisk is the core of a tier 3 army, and their actions are the main determinant of the Zerg's fate. But moving the Ultralisk down to 2/3 strength and it being more of the tier 3.0 unit means that we'd need a new unit to rise to serve as the core of a melee Zerg army. Presumably that would be a spellcaster. Given that fungal growth has a snare effect, this core of the army would likely be the Infestor.

If the Ultralisk were to be weakened somewhat, I'd advocate an Ultralisk Cavern unlocked upgrade on the Infestation Pit that increased the speed of Infestors to be high enough to keep up to some degree with the speedy Zerg melee army. Maybe bump up the speed from 2.0 to 2.5, and bump up their on-creep bonus movement from 1.3 to 1.5, matching the Hydralisk. It would also behoove us to have the snare effect of fungals exchanged for a strong slow effect instead.

This is a bit too late at this stage of development, but the thought of a tier 2.5/3.0 transitional melee unit into a tier 3.5/4.0 final unit gave me the idea for splitting the Ultralisk into two units. One being a slightly smaller and cheaper version of the BW Ultralisk, no splash, 3 or 4 supply and 4.55 speed, meant to serve as the big, meaty support for Zerglings. The other being the true tier 3.5/4.0 final melee unit, and resembling the current LotV Ultralisk, except slightly more expensive, greater health pool, possibly a little bit slower, and with greater splash damage multiplier than just .33x. Perhaps deem it the Omegalisk, after the WoL alpha unit. They'd end up serving very different roles in the army, as one would easily compliment a Zergling and Mutalisk army throughout the mid and late game, and the other would absolutely require support, but could be used as a massive assault unit that can be thrown at sturdy defenses and break through with spellcaster assistance.

NyxNax

United States227 Posts

June 25 2015 00:58 GMT

#117

I agree with TLO about the ultralisk completely. The derping has got to stop. And 1 damage marines... I mean cmon.. and I thought they wanted to end hard counters?

About the ghost Idea he tossed out though.., I think its an awesome idea but would be exploited too much, especially in 2v2. Disabling detectors then send in the DT's. It's gotta work in all aspects of the game, not just 1v1.

Filter

Canada620 Posts

June 25 2015 00:59 GMT

#118

Thanks TLO, I don't have much to add other than I love how you're talking about both players perspectives. I also love that you're thinking along the lines of smaller, better units to micro and mix a comp around rather than big uninteresting amove units that are strong because of their "tier" and not how they are used.

avilo

United States4100 Posts

June 25 2015 02:18 GMT

#119

They basically made the ultralisk the analog to the immortal versus Terran mech. Simply build ultra vs bio and you have a free advantage...it's not a good design and it's not good for game play.

I do not understand why blizzard simply doesn't...revert their mistake...people keep coming up with these ridiculous and far fetched suggestions, and changes...when it's so simple. Just remove the 8 armor ultra abomination and same with that ghost drone that was literally just put in to bandaid patch the 8 armor ultra.

Blizzard needs to really lose some ego in terms of some of their changes. Imo the 8 armor ultra was just a pure mistake...and i feel like a lot of times the blizzard design team is really afraid of reverting a change or admitting that it didn't work out.

KaZeFenrir

United States37 Posts

June 25 2015 03:56 GMT

#120

All these massive units seem to have the same problems. Too weak, or too powerful, and then they need to be weakened.
Thor is a good AA platform in TvT and TvZ but socks at everything else.
Battlecruisers are a joke.
Broodlord are too slow and aren't as good since Infestors aren't great anymore.
Ultralisks have had problems since WOL.
Everyone but Protoss hates Tempest which has too much range and makes massive air pointless.
Carriers are expensive useless money sinks.
COLLUSUS! (shakes fist)

So I dunno. Maybe it's a sign that if you have to keep messing with them with every game release that it's time to just completely rework them. Nostalgia is great and all, but I'd rather see units players are actually going to use, use well, and aren't trash or gimmicky than have the Nostalgia boner the BC or Carrier gives me..