Hello everyone! In the light of the latest discussion about the new armor reducing ghost ability I'd like to share my opinion on the topic. In my opinion, Blizzard is trying to find a counter intuitive solution to a problem they unnecessarily created themselves. First I'd like to compare the old and new ultralisk with and without the armor reducing drone; I'll be using a maxed upgrade scenario for both the marine and the marauder
The Stats:
Marine vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 3 damage = 167 hits LotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hits Lotv + Drone 500hp / 4 damage = 125 hits Not having a drone available will reduce the efficiency of a marine to 25%
Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5%
Game Design: It strikes me as poor design that whether a fight will be won or lost by Terran will mostly depend on having an armor reducing drone. The major deciding factors should be micro, positioning, and lastly composition. Composition however, shouldn't be all or nothing based on a single ability tailored towards a single unit. There's not any smart decisions to be made, it's just getting a ghost in time or not. It's incredibly frustrating and anti-fun having to deal with an almost indestructible unit because you missed your window. It's too severe a punishment that in my opinion feels like another chore added to the game that you need to take care off; instead of rewarding good play, you get punished for poor play.
Lastly, the scenario in which Terran does have the drone doesn't look very different from HotS. (Marine: 167 to 125/Marauder: 25 to 23). I suppose it adds another timing window, but that's not what StarCraft II needs in my opinion, especially not one that makes you feel completely helpless in case you miss it as Terran.
Narration: The new ghost ability introduces a new but also unique concept into the game. Armor reduction doesn't exist yet and will most likely be limited to this niche scenario. The game is already happening at lightning speed and it's difficult for casters to tell viewers about all the details that decide a fight. The anti-armor drone adds another, unnecessary complexity to fights. Positioning and army control is usually far more obvious than an ability that changes one of the most ''hidden'' stats of a unit.
Counter suggestion: I'm purely ball parking here but I want to show a rough idea of where I think the ultralisk should be going in LotV. I believe we're trying to achieve a more dynamic game that is trying to move away from deathball a-moving towards smaller skirmishes and multiple battlefields, so here's my idea:
The 2/3 Ultralisk
HP: 500 -> 335
Attack: 35(+3) -> 25(+3)
Armor: 1+3+2 = 6
Minerals: 300 -> 200
Gas: 200 -> 125
Supply: 6 -> 4
Decrease size to 2/3
Reduce creep modifier from 1,3 -> 1,15
Improve off creep speed by 5% from 2,9531 to 3,1
New On creep speed from: 3,83903 -> 3,396065
Decrease damage point from 0.3332 to 0.167
Ultralisks tend to over-perform on creep and do poorly off creep, so I'd like to address this issue by making them slower on and faster off creep. Decreasing the damage point for ultralisks would also be beneficial to make them more reactive and micro friendly.
I don't believe the new LotV ultralisk is a very fun unit. So instead I'd like to see Blizzard try out a smaller version of the ultralisk. It's slightly faster off creep and slower on creep than before. This might allow Zerg to use ultralisks in several locations and in combination with zergling hit-squads to give late game harass some more punch while making ultralisks less frustrating to control. It could provide the ultralisk with the buff it deserves while not improving it in direct confrontation in which it excels already.
Sidenote: As for the Ghost, just a random thought. How about instead the drone, give them a 100 or 125 energy blinding grenade that can temporarily disable a detector. Cause you know, we haven't seen enough Nukes since I switched to Zerg. Thanks for reading!
I agree with the analysis (as most others do), but I am not sure you really need that many other changes (like changing HP). I think all it needs is higher off creep movement speed and lower model size (from its HOTS state).
With the decreased size, I'm assuming that also means you want to get rid of the massive tag? Or leave it because it should still be able to crush force fields?
It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes. The Ghost ability is way too specific in this instance, yes. But it could be altered to become a positional tool in itself and add much to the game.
Change the effect from reducing armor by 3 to just giving a flat buff to all attacks hitting the targeted unit by 3, and it can gain use against units such as Hellbats, Archons, Queens, and Mutalisks, which are all units that could conceivably be involved in engagements before their armor reaches 3. Protoss units in general have a tendency of engaging during the Ghost phase of TvP before their shields have reached 3 armor. Increase the duration to about 30 seconds, and the drone would also need some more HP in order to survive long enough to make a difference in a long, back and forth fight. At this point in time, you've created something resembling an offensive PDD, in that it helps you DPS down high priority targets within a certain area. Yes, this slightly treads on the toes of the Liberator, but it's a bit quicker and used as part of a different sort of composition, one that requires additional units to make the most of the opportunities the drone provides.
Needless to say, it should not be out of the question to test out a 7 armor Ultralisk, since the 8 armor Ultralisk is proving to cause some extremely hard-counter oriented fights.
I honestly dont like TLO idea and i disagree with him, mainly because the new ultra that has better micro would still be shut down by marauders and marines just like HotS. Ultras melt so fast.
Also why would anyone use this new Ultralisk with those stats instead of using Lurkers ?
I like the ghost ability its very good against Immortals and Ultras, also for once it forces the Terran to finally get a tier 3 bio unit instead of spamming MMM against Ultralisks.
Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a fun balanced match.
If i were to give Ultralisk something its the tower ability, also fix his derpy pathing and increase its speed off creep and make it slower on creep.
On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote: It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.
This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?
On June 24 2015 08:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: I honestly dont like TLO idea and i disagree with him, mainly because the new ultra that has better micro would still be shut down by marauders and marines just like HotS. Ultras melt so fast.
Also why would anyone use this new Ultralisk with those stats instead of using Lurkers ?
I like the ghost ability its very good against Immortals and Ultras, also for once it forces the Terran to finally get a tier 3 bio unit instead of spamming MMM against Ultralisks.
Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a fun balanced match.
If i were to give Ultralisk something its the tower ability, also fix his derpy pathing and increase its speed off creep and make it slower on creep.
pls we both know this argument is bullshit. In current tvz it's marine marauder medivac mine thor vs ling bane muta ultra (infestor). Please count how many tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units both races use and then speak again.
On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote: It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.
This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?
Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strongly agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work.
On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote: It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.
This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?
Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strong agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work.
Do HotS ultras add to the power of the zerg army? I'd argue yes, it's a net power increase. That's why you see them built. I don't think buffing them for the sake of buffing them is a good idea unless you're going to restructure the lategame on both sides. With the nerfed marauder they were already significantly stronger in Legacy to the point where it might have been a balance problem with 6 armor instead of 8!
On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote: It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.
This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?
Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strong agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work.
That's not true. ultras often look bad in tvz because they are such a huge investment that most players who tech to them to early can't afford much support for them and alone they die to marauders. If a zerg manages to stabilize on hive and 3/3 with ultras and infestors + a big ling bane army it becomes extremely hard to win for terran. Buff ultras any more and zvt lategame will be a freewin.
Keep these coming, it's always nice to hear pro perspective on LotV. Thank you TLO.
I like the idea, but just about anything sounds better than lazily giving the ultralisk 8 armor. Personally, I'd like to see them revert the ultralisk to its HotS form but give it some sort of new passive ability to compensate rather than just adjust the stats.
On June 24 2015 09:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Keep these coming, it's always nice to hear pro perspective on LotV. Thank you TLO.
I like the idea, but just about anything sounds better than lazily giving the ultralisk 8 armor. Personally, I'd like to see them revert the ultralisk to its HotS form but give it some sort of new passive effect to compensate.
passive effect? why not an active ability? Maybe something like a spell you have to activate and then your ultras do 10% more damage for 5 seconds. I should work for blizzard!
Thanks for posting. I agree that the ghost ability feels forced and artificial. LIke, they made this change to the ultra for who knows what reasons, then they realise the change is too powerful, so they introduce a new ability that literally reverts the buff they gave the ultra. I mean... Just revert both changes at that point, and everyone will be happy? However, I don't quite see the point of your counter proposal either. :/
So the purpose of the 2/3 ultra is to make it smaller so that it will be easier to fit them in for harass? But at the same time they do less damage, so they won't do more damage per surface area. I don't understand how decreasing all values is supposed achieves less deathballs and more harass. Do you mean that it'll be easier for the ultra to reach the terran bases because they are smaller, but in larger numbers?
Be aware that decreasing the creep bonus reduced the defenders advantage for both sides (harder for zerg to defend with slower ultras on creep, harder to defend for terran with faster ultras off creep), making the matchup more volatile. I can see how faster off creep makes it easier to harass, but as a melee unit, it also makes it much stronger in a straight up fight.
On June 24 2015 08:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: I honestly dont like TLO idea and i disagree with him, mainly because the new ultra that has better micro would still be shut down by marauders and marines just like HotS. Ultras melt so fast.
Also why would anyone use this new Ultralisk with those stats instead of using Lurkers ?
I like the ghost ability its very good against Immortals and Ultras, also for once it forces the Terran to finally get a tier 3 bio unit instead of spamming MMM against Ultralisks.
Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a fun balanced match.
If i were to give Ultralisk something its the tower ability, also fix his derpy pathing and increase its speed off creep and make it slower on creep.
pls we both know this argument is bullshit. In current tvz it's marine marauder medivac mine thor vs ling bane muta ultra (infestor). Please count how many tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units both races use and then speak again.
Its not BS, not all matches are like that.
Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a real thing, play more in the beta if you didnt got to see that or watch more tournaments.
Also most openers are medivacs/tanks and zerg forced into 2 base muta, and some people are still going turtle mech and then change into mass cyclone/hellions/vikings cuz its very hard to deal with that in late game.
On June 24 2015 09:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Keep these coming, it's always nice to hear pro perspective on LotV. Thank you TLO.
I like the idea, but just about anything sounds better than lazily giving the ultralisk 8 armor. Personally, I'd like to see them revert the ultralisk to its HotS form but give it some sort of new passive ability to compensate rather than just adjust the stats.
What was the one that never went into a live build, but made them step over Zerglings and Banelings and block all splash damage to those units that they walked over? Was that "monarch plating"?
On June 24 2015 09:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Keep these coming, it's always nice to hear pro perspective on LotV. Thank you TLO.
I like the idea, but just about anything sounds better than lazily giving the ultralisk 8 armor. Personally, I'd like to see them revert the ultralisk to its HotS form but give it some sort of new passive effect to compensate.
passive effect? why not an active ability? Maybe something like a spell you have to activate and then your ultras do 10% more damage for 5 seconds. I should work for blizzard!
There was burrow charge, it was fun and good to use but Terran with Protoss complained and it got removed. So yeah you guys dont like things no matter what mostly.
On June 24 2015 08:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: I honestly dont like TLO idea and i disagree with him, mainly because the new ultra that has better micro would still be shut down by marauders and marines just like HotS. Ultras melt so fast.
Also why would anyone use this new Ultralisk with those stats instead of using Lurkers ?
I like the ghost ability its very good against Immortals and Ultras, also for once it forces the Terran to finally get a tier 3 bio unit instead of spamming MMM against Ultralisks.
Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a fun balanced match.
If i were to give Ultralisk something its the tower ability, also fix his derpy pathing and increase its speed off creep and make it slower on creep.
pls we both know this argument is bullshit. In current tvz it's marine marauder medivac mine thor vs ling bane muta ultra (infestor). Please count how many tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units both races use and then speak again.
Its not BS, not all matches are like that.
Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a real thing, play more in the beta if you didnt got to see that or watch more tournaments.
Also most openers are medivacs/tanks and zerg forced into 2 base muta, and some people are still going turtle mech and then change into mass cyclone/hellions/vikings cuz its very hard to deal with that in late game.
holy shit, how can people feign knowledge to the degree this guy has in the past 2 days on TL? Like, don't u feel awkward sitting at your computer just typing random shit together pretending you know what you're talking about?
wait.. a.. second... this isn't someone's second account trolling TL trying to be as idiotic as possible...? RIGHT? CHECK ALL THE IPS! GET BACK TO ME ASAP TEAM
oh wait i thought this guy and dullblade were the same guy, holy shit that woulda been even more crazy LOL
On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote: It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.
This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?
Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strong agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work.
That's not true. ultras often look bad in tvz because they are such a huge investment that most players who tech to them to early can't afford much support for them and alone they die to marauders. If a zerg manages to stabilize on hive and 3/3 with ultras and infestors + a big ling bane army it becomes extremely hard to win for terran. Buff ultras any more and zvt lategame will be a freewin.
The reason why it becomes so difficult is because of the combined power of the splash and root effect of fungal growth, the huge economy powering the massive amount of Banelings which can be afforded to be tossed away far more liberally than in lower economy situations, and yes, the Ultralisks do serve a valuable role. It's not that Ultralisks are terrifying in as of themselves. But outside of the context of being able to lock bio in place with fungals, or threaten tech switches, the power of Ultralisks - outside of combined arms - in the lategame is pretty limited. Therefore, it seems that the main issue that should receive patching attention is making Ultralisks better outside of the context of having Infestors and a zillion Banelings available, yet not significantly better in said context.
The main point is reasonable. But I'm getting really bored of these "not rewarded for good play but punished for bad play" arguments. It's a 1v1 between 2 human players, those 2 things are one and the same.
Marine vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 3 damage = 167 hits LotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hits Lotv + Drone 500hp / 4 damage = 125 hits Not having a drone available will reduce the efficiency of a marine to 25%
Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 22 damage = 23 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 70%
On June 24 2015 10:24 ZenithM wrote:But I'm getting really bored of these "not rewarded for good play but punished for bad play" arguments. It's a 1v1 between 2 human players, those 2 things are one and the same.
Sure, when you strip that sentence of all context like that, it sounds tautological. But that's why TLO explains, earlier in the very paragraph that sentence comes from, what he means by bad play: "There's not any smart decisions to be made, it's just getting a ghost in time or not. It's incredibly frustrating and anti-fun having to deal with an almost indestructible unit because you missed your window."
It's up to us (well, Blizzard) to decide what is and is not a bad play in the context of SC2.
Do you want "didn't get Ghosts in time" to be considered a bad play?
Does that sound like an interesting enough challenge to pose to professional players, that is worth both the time they took to train their skills, and the time we took investing in the match leading up to a hard-counter bulldozing?
Do you want a 20 minute long back-and-forth ZvT to be decided by a Zerg successfully hiding an Ultralisk Cavern in a corner of the map and winning because the Terran didn't get Ghosts and thus can do absolutely nothing, even if it's Maru playing against a Woodleague Zerg in the Ro128 qualifiers for Red Bull My Backyard?
On June 24 2015 08:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: I honestly dont like TLO idea and i disagree with him, mainly because the new ultra that has better micro would still be shut down by marauders and marines just like HotS. Ultras melt so fast.
Also why would anyone use this new Ultralisk with those stats instead of using Lurkers ?
I like the ghost ability its very good against Immortals and Ultras, also for once it forces the Terran to finally get a tier 3 bio unit instead of spamming MMM against Ultralisks.
Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a fun balanced match.
If i were to give Ultralisk something its the tower ability, also fix his derpy pathing and increase its speed off creep and make it slower on creep.
pls we both know this argument is bullshit. In current tvz it's marine marauder medivac mine thor vs ling bane muta ultra (infestor). Please count how many tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units both races use and then speak again.
Its not BS, not all matches are like that.
Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a real thing, play more in the beta if you didnt got to see that or watch more tournaments.
Also most openers are medivacs/tanks and zerg forced into 2 base muta, and some people are still going turtle mech and then change into mass cyclone/hellions/vikings cuz its very hard to deal with that in late game.
holy shit, how can people feign knowledge to the degree this guy has in the past 2 days on TL? Like, don't u feel awkward sitting at your computer just typing random shit together pretending you know what you're talking about?
wait.. a.. second... this isn't someone's second account trolling TL trying to be as idiotic as possible...? RIGHT? CHECK ALL THE IPS! GET BACK TO ME ASAP TEAM
oh wait i thought this guy and dullblade were the same guy, holy shit that woulda been even more crazy LOL
tlo post is honest assessment; this user and other zerg player who post about zerg will only offer their perception and complete resistance to anything that is not favor zerg.
there are some user who look at game from total perspective, such as pro player user and TLstaff user who can see value in good game design in big picture.
then there are user who only wish for their own benefit to their ego/experience.
TLO was always excellent in the analysis of this game and I appreciate and agree with this post. Zerg needs a unit against Terran that truly rewarded them getting past the hectic and Terran favored mid game, and the Ultralisk changes have potential to do that. But they also have potential to be too strong, and through standard Blizzard practices, be nerfed until it once again makes far more Zergs cry than Terrans.
Looking forward to changes that are about to take place in this excellent game of ours. It can only get better
On June 24 2015 11:34 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote: Always valued TLO's thoughts, hes a super smart player everyone knows it.
Mechanics always letting him down all these years though, shame.
True, mechanically he was just ever so slightly behind the very best, but let's not forget he spent at least one year playing random and terran before switching to full time zerg.
One year or so of solid, daily practice was essentially missed out on, and he still managed to stay at the very very top. A shame he never won any real majors, at least not yet.
A disclaimer: I'm not in LotV beta and I never was a great player, so everything in this post is coming from the theoretical side.
Starcraft has used binary wins since the beginning: 1) Cloak vs no detection 2) Flying (+ shooting down) vs no anti-air. SC2 is particularly punishing for it where a proxy oracle, banshee, or DTs can be game ending or close to it at a very early stage. Admittedly, those losses tend to be rage inducing and anti-fun and not something I'd like to see more of in SC2. However, I don't put LotV Ultralisks in that same category for two reasons.
1) Yes, they are brutal to deal with in a pure MMM army. However, they can be dealt with through very good micro and proper usage of positioning. They're still probably going to be cost efficient, but they aren't impossible to deal with unlike flying or cloak against the wrong army.
LotV ultralisks aren't a hard counter, nor a soft counter, they're somewhere in between. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing in part due to my next point.
2) Rushing ultralisks is not exactly easy. You can't really rush out pool -> lair -> infestation pit -> hive -> ultralisk cavern unless your opponent is completely blind and passive. It's not the same as a banshee/oracle/DT that can hit reasonably early. In many cases, those are even proxied and if you don't have perfect vision everywhere, it can easily catch you off guard. Even if you can hide the cavern somewhere, you can't really hide the Hive. So your opponent should have a good idea that ultralisks could be coming soon when they see the hive and prepare accordingly. It's not the same as those early game proxy attacks.
If you're a terran that's still on MMM and the zerg is pumping out ultralisks, that is a strategic deficit you have put yourself in. Should you be able to win every game purely with MMM just because you micro well? Shouldn't the strategy part of Real-Time Strategy mean something?
I think you should be forced to add something into your composition to help. The logical addition would be ghosts, whose required building can be built immediately assuming you have a barracks. So, even if you get completely blindsided, you can micro with your MMM and get ghosts out ASAP and still salvage the situation.
The Ghost Solution I like that the ghost is the solution to the ultralisk, but I'm not a huge fan of the drone solution. It's such a small niche ability and I'd rather see more multi-purpose abilities. It's also one more active ability to hit and I'd rather see something passive on the ghost. My suggestion, ditch that ability. Instead, give them armor breaking rounds.
Each regular shot from a ghost gives the target a stacking -1 armor debuff that lasts for 15 seconds (armor can't go below 0).
This way, the ghost is something you'd want to sprinkle into your army against almost any composition, especially with marine support. They may need to increase the reload time on the ghost for balance, but it'd be a useful unit in all matchups while being particularly powerful against the ultralisk.
On June 24 2015 12:49 Wildmoon wrote: One thing is smaller Ultralisk look aesthetically very silly lol. I think I saw it from Starbow or somewhere.
BW too.
Seriously I know a lot of people think a smaller ultra doesn't "feels right" but ultras where smaller in BW and they where amazing there, SC2 ultra was made big and bulky, and also shit. I it feels even more silly that pretty much everything can kite ultra, I'm sure many users here have know about the "ultras into losing" strat, everytime a player makes ultras they lose (this is of course a joke, but shows the perception players have toward the unit).
Not only smaller,faster, lower damage point ultras are more fun to use, more microable, and better from a design perspective, I think they fit the zerg-y feel zerg units should have.
Also seeing ling/ultra do massive surrounds in BW was pretty amazing, it would be something cool to have, instead of these clunky units that are simply kitted for miles before dying.
how about keeping the lotv ultralisk but change the drone to the 'orb of corruption' upgrade from wc3. Every standard attack of Ghosts reduce -5 armor from the target for a few seconds. that should fix it.
On June 24 2015 10:24 ZenithM wrote:But I'm getting really bored of these "not rewarded for good play but punished for bad play" arguments. It's a 1v1 between 2 human players, those 2 things are one and the same.
Sure, when you strip that sentence of all context like that, it sounds tautological. But that's why TLO explains, earlier in the very paragraph that sentence comes from, what he means by bad play: "There's not any smart decisions to be made, it's just getting a ghost in time or not. It's incredibly frustrating and anti-fun having to deal with an almost indestructible unit because you missed your window."
It's up to us (well, Blizzard) to decide what is and is not a bad play in the context of SC2.
Do you want "didn't get Ghosts in time" to be considered a bad play?
Does that sound like an interesting enough challenge to pose to professional players, that is worth both the time they took to train their skills, and the time we took investing in the match leading up to a hard-counter bulldozing?
Do you want a 20 minute long back-and-forth ZvT to be decided by a Zerg successfully hiding an Ultralisk Cavern in a corner of the map and winning because the Terran didn't get Ghosts and thus can do absolutely nothing, even if it's Maru playing against a Woodleague Zerg in the Ro128 qualifiers for Red Bull My Backyard?
Good play is pressuring your opponent so much that he can't get the tech needed in time, let alone hide it. Let's assume a little late-game TvZ scenario here. You fight vs a Zerg with your midgame armies. "Forgetting something" just shouldn't happen in Starcraft 2, and you should be punished for it. Ghosts are obviously in the back of your mind. So let's assume you didn't forgot about ghosts. If you couldn't find a safe window where you can invest in the needed tech in time, you didn't play bad, it's just that your opponent played well enough that you didn't have the necessary extra resources to invest. About "smart decisions", I think it's pretty clear at this point that there won't be much "smart" things going on in the game. Researching zergling speed isn't smart, getting stim isn't smart, so yeah, building an ultralisk den or getting ghosts isn't smart either, but I don't know what kind of things would be smart, in the end. You just do what is needed to win, smart or not.
Edit: I'm exaggerating a bit, mind you, I liked TLO's post overall, I just hate reading that line over and over again. It doesn't sound smart, and it's not smart. But I agree that the ghost-ultralisk interaction may not be the smartest things in SC2 to date, even among all the dumb things in the game ;D
I love how a lot of comments here disagree with TLO's assessment and provide good reasons for doing so instead of simply jumping on the bandwagon of the latest criticism and alternate suggestion randomly pulled out of a hat.
The first two lines of TLO's post especially reeks of arrogance and the kind of dunning kruger sense of entitlement which will only serve to distance any professional game designer from looking at the feedback on this site.
The only pro opinions I take seriously at this moment are probably QXC and gretorp, mainly because they can both be so anally statistically obsessive and purely logical.
On June 24 2015 14:52 KillerInstinctHood wrote: I love how a lot of comments here disagree with TLO's assessment and provide good reasons for doing so instead of simply jumping on the bandwagon of the latest criticism and alternate suggestion randomly pulled out of a hat.
Well, it wasn't written in 58 paragraphs over 7 chapters, so why would the TL community embrace it? get the TL writing team on it, and everyone will shout for the 2/3 ultra in no time, don't worry.
As for the Ghost, just a random thought. How about instead the drone, give them a 100 or 125 energy blinding grenade that can temporarily disable a detector. Cause you know, we haven't seen enough Nukes since I switched to Zerg.
Let's be honest, the armor drone is a bad idea. its a bandaid to give ghosts some meaning where there is none.
Ghosts need not be a hard counter to anything. Or in this case, a requirement for bio. Ghosts should have utility that lets them come in and change the tide against P with EMP or Z with something just as viable.
Armor reduction is playing with fire. It basically says to Blizz game designers: Give units more armor vs Terran because they have armor reduction. That's a joke.
What SC2 needs is a huge revamp of many ignored units like Ultralisk and bring a balance to the damage/armor system where you have less "hard counters" and its based more about compositions, positioning, and engagements. Ultralisks should be able to crush troops but they should also be vulnerable when 100 units fire at them at the same time. That's why zergs have spells like dark swarm to give them cover. So why are ghosts getting armor reduction for a situation created by making Ultras a counter to bio. Why are they a counter in the first place? Why can't they just be a massive unit that can tank for the zerg army once it gets below a % hp? Why is Blizzard so limited in the possibilities they could go with?
Game design is not easy. But its also not impossible. Or is Blizzard's team just not good enough anymore to balance a game like this to today's audience who gives a damn? All I can say for sure is that if SC2 came out this year I'd bet 100% it would be free to play and look completely different.
I agree with increasing the offcreep movement speed. I'm not sure about the 2/3 concept though. The problem will be that any lower armor will greatly reduce the cost efficiency of the ultra even if the unit costs are reduced.
On June 24 2015 12:49 Wildmoon wrote: One thing is smaller Ultralisk look aesthetically very silly lol. I think I saw it from Starbow or somewhere.
BW too.
Seriously I know a lot of people think a smaller ultra doesn't "feels right" but ultras where smaller in BW and they where amazing there, SC2 ultra was made big and bulky, and also shit. I it feels even more silly that pretty much everything can kite ultra, I'm sure many users here have know about the "ultras into losing" strat, everytime a player makes ultras they lose (this is of course a joke, but shows the perception players have toward the unit).
Not only smaller,faster, lower damage point ultras are more fun to use, more microable, and better from a design perspective, I think they fit the zerg-y feel zerg units should have.
Also seeing ling/ultra do massive surrounds in BW was pretty amazing, it would be something cool to have, instead of these clunky units that are simply kitted for miles before dying.
Well M&M could kite anything that could not charge. BW Ultralisk didn't feel as small as in Starbow. It may be because of BW Ultra was made to be that small in the first place not scaled down like Starbow.
The problem with Ultralisks isn't survivability it's their inability to engage effectively and their massive size and unit collision interaction makes them just derp too hard.
None of this is fixed with the + armor, the only thing it fixes is making Ultralisks insanely A move friendly vs. bio and designing (pretty poorly mind you) an ability that is obviously tailor freaking made against said OP Ultralisk is...well I don't even know what that is actually.
"Hey guys, instead of a change that would help the Ultralisk position itself properly, let's just make it so unkillable that it eliminates a style of play from Terran, but on that very same note, instead of buffing the Ghost with a meaningful and strategic ability, let's just give it an ability that directly fights against the new unkillable Ultralisk!"
I know that sounded like total nonsense, but that's all I've got on interpretation on the whole Ultra/Ghost/Drone interaction.
Actually, the ghost is like the hots corruptor. I remember blizzards themselves said that the corruptor concept was boring in zvp, because you absolutely had to build it vs colossus, but it was otherwise useless. Which clearly isn't a very exciting unit interaction. And it is clearly the same thing for ghost and ultra now.
On June 24 2015 16:47 Cascade wrote: Actually, the ghost is like the hots corruptor. I remember blizzards themselves said that the corruptor concept was boring in zvp, because you absolutely had to build it vs colossus, but it was otherwise useless. Which clearly isn't a very exciting unit interaction. And it is clearly the same thing for ghost and ultra now.
at least you can morph corrupors into something useful if you ge the time/ressources.
I never thought I'd quote dustin browder for wisdom, but:
If we study the game, for example, you would say that the corruptor is lame. Don't get us wrong; they're useful. If there are a lot of colossi, you need corruptors. If there are dark templars, you need overseers. They have a battle function for a situation, but what new battle strategies and tactics do they add in the game? Compare the two to the mutalisks; a player can raid, harass. They can get board control; they can decimate opponents without antiair. Party, right? Having those guys around changes the match. Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story.
Isn't it a bit like that with ghost and Ultra? If zerg stops building ultras and goes back to 3-3 ling-bling muta, then what will all the ghosts do? EMP infestors? nuke? snipe banes/mutas? What do you think? Is there a use for the ghost without ultras? Will there ever be a reason to build ghost if not to counter ultras?
If we study the game, for example, you would say that the corruptor is lame. Don't get us wrong; they're useful. If there are a lot of colossi, you need corruptors. If there are dark templars, you need overseers. They have a battle function for a situation, but what new battle strategies and tactics do they add in the game? Compare the two to the mutalisks; a player can raid, harass. They can get board control; they can decimate opponents without antiair. Party, right? Having those guys around changes the match. Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story.
Isn't it a bit like that with ghost and Ultra? If zerg stops building ultras and goes back to 3-3 ling-bling muta, then what will all the ghosts do? EMP infestors? nuke? snipe banes/mutas? What do you think? Is there a use for the ghost without ultras? Will there ever be a reason to build ghost if not to counter ultras?
Ghosts can be relatively effective vs casters, and also vs hydras/mutas in small numbers (rare situations, but it is). To give ghosts a role, you need to reduce costs, give them +1 range upgrade, and reintroduce snipe instead of the damn drone, or just move EMP to the Raven and give Ghosts the damn drone.
However ThorBioMine(+Cyclone/Liberator) does it very well vs Zerg + Ultras, it's just about time they realize them and merge Mech Weapons upgrade, or make them cheaper with armor at higher cost, like Zerg ground.
If we study the game, for example, you would say that the corruptor is lame. Don't get us wrong; they're useful. If there are a lot of colossi, you need corruptors. If there are dark templars, you need overseers. They have a battle function for a situation, but what new battle strategies and tactics do they add in the game? Compare the two to the mutalisks; a player can raid, harass. They can get board control; they can decimate opponents without antiair. Party, right? Having those guys around changes the match. Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story.
Isn't it a bit like that with ghost and Ultra? If zerg stops building ultras and goes back to 3-3 ling-bling muta, then what will all the ghosts do? EMP infestors? nuke? snipe banes/mutas? What do you think? Is there a use for the ghost without ultras? Will there ever be a reason to build ghost if not to counter ultras?
Going off a bit of a tangent here, but I recently thought about the differences in design philosophies between Dustin Browder and David Kim. David Kim is definitely a guy who wants constant action and harass with lots of abilities (so you constantly need to press buttons). On the other hand, DB is more a guy who try to add cool/fun stuff without giving so much detail to the skillcap.
In BW ultra speed was an upgrade that made the ultra as fast as speedlings. With reduced hitpoints and damage, it would make a good addition to late game hitsquads. The problem is how you would deal w marauseurs in a straight up fight. TLO s idea s a good compromise
I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units.
On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote: I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units.
On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote: I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units.
drones don't walk, they hover
If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently.
On June 24 2015 08:19 Athenau wrote: Hmm, where are those Marauder numbers coming from?
LotV Marauder with +3 upgrades = 2x(5+5+3 - 8) = 10 damage, not 16.
For what it's worth, I agree with the overall analysis.
You are correct and OP is wrong.
Here are the actual numbers
Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5%
Marauders were pretty much removed from the game. As even with the drone they are much weaker than in HotS.
On June 24 2015 08:19 Athenau wrote: Hmm, where are those Marauder numbers coming from?
LotV Marauder with +3 upgrades = 2x(5+5+3 - 8) = 10 damage, not 16.
For what it's worth, I agree with the overall analysis.
You are correct and OP is wrong.
Here are the actual numbers
Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5%
Marauders were pretty much removed from the game. As even with the drone they are much weaker than in HotS.
Damn, I had no idea Ultras were so strong and marauders so weak in the beta, that's ridiculous hahaha.
wait LotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hits this is 0-0 marine vs 3-5 ultralisk? or what? When i read 500 hits, i automatically imagine a single player campaign mission, not a competitive multiplayer game. can someone please give a quick link to the stats?
On June 24 2015 08:19 Athenau wrote: Hmm, where are those Marauder numbers coming from?
LotV Marauder with +3 upgrades = 2x(5+5+3 - 8) = 10 damage, not 16.
For what it's worth, I agree with the overall analysis.
You are correct and OP is wrong.
Here are the actual numbers
Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5%
Marauders were pretty much removed from the game. As even with the drone they are much weaker than in HotS.
wow I figured they'd keep marauders +1 for each damage type to keep their anti-armour scaling similar to hots. That actually makes my case stronger. That's plain awful if true.
On June 24 2015 19:30 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: wait LotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hits this is 0-0 marine vs 3-5 ultralisk? or what? When i read 500 hits, i automatically imagine a single player campaign mission, not a competitive multiplayer game. can someone please give a quick link to the stats?
On June 24 2015 08:19 Athenau wrote: Hmm, where are those Marauder numbers coming from?
LotV Marauder with +3 upgrades = 2x(5+5+3 - 8) = 10 damage, not 16.
For what it's worth, I agree with the overall analysis.
You are correct and OP is wrong.
Here are the actual numbers
Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5%
Marauders were pretty much removed from the game. As even with the drone they are much weaker than in HotS.
wow I figured they'd keep marauders +1 for each damage type to keep their anti-armour scaling similar to hots. That actually makes my case stronger. That's plain awful if true.
Yea the marauder rework makes them stronger against targets that have no armour, but anything with 2 or more armour they're weaker. These figures are the correct ones.
On June 24 2015 19:30 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: wait LotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hits this is 0-0 marine vs 3-5 ultralisk? or what? When i read 500 hits, i automatically imagine a single player campaign mission, not a competitive multiplayer game. can someone please give a quick link to the stats?
So, we are back at requesting SC:BW units for SC2. But seriously, I too want this. SC2 units just feel bad compared to the BW units. I want my Goliaths, I want my Vultures, I want my Valkyries, I want my BW Hydras and my BW Ultras and my BW Reavers and my BW Dark Archons and my... and my... and my...
I like big beefy Ultralisks, at this point I think it comes down to balance. If Ghost Drone turns out to suck, it could become a small aura that decreases armour for units in it (non-stackable.) If Ultralisks are too strong, I think a cool way to nerf them is to remove Frenzy. It becomes this huge freaking monster that you have to avoid at all cost, needing Time Warp/Stasis/Abduct/Neural Parasite/Fungal/Drone to hold the beast back. Also will have to abuse the AI and the melee range of the unit, with use of Structures/Cliffs/Kiting/Small chokes, without this you don't stand a chance.
For me at least this is a cooler mechanic than a larger Zergling.
I never thought I'd quote dustin browder for wisdom, but:
If we study the game, for example, you would say that the corruptor is lame. Don't get us wrong; they're useful. If there are a lot of colossi, you need corruptors. If there are dark templars, you need overseers. They have a battle function for a situation, but what new battle strategies and tactics do they add in the game? Compare the two to the mutalisks; a player can raid, harass. They can get board control; they can decimate opponents without antiair. Party, right? Having those guys around changes the match. Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story.
Isn't it a bit like that with ghost and Ultra? If zerg stops building ultras and goes back to 3-3 ling-bling muta, then what will all the ghosts do? EMP infestors? nuke? snipe banes/mutas? What do you think? Is there a use for the ghost without ultras? Will there ever be a reason to build ghost if not to counter ultras?
Going off a bit of a tangent here, but I recently thought about the differences in design philosophies between Dustin Browder and David Kim. David Kim is definitely a guy who wants constant action and harass with lots of abilities (so you constantly need to press buttons). On the other hand, DB is more a guy who try to add cool/fun stuff without giving so much detail to the skillcap.
There is a lot of stuff you say about DB but it's pretty clear from his interviews he tries to make fun games before anything else.
On June 24 2015 08:19 Athenau wrote: Hmm, where are those Marauder numbers coming from?
LotV Marauder with +3 upgrades = 2x(5+5+3 - 8) = 10 damage, not 16.
For what it's worth, I agree with the overall analysis.
You are correct and OP is wrong.
Here are the actual numbers
Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5%
Marauders were pretty much removed from the game. As even with the drone they are much weaker than in HotS.
wow I figured they'd keep marauders +1 for each damage type to keep their anti-armour scaling similar to hots. That actually makes my case stronger. That's plain awful if true.
The bonus damage doesn't seem to scale. If it did, then at max upgrades it's 8+8vs armor x 2 (32 damage) instead of 26, which will turn PvT into the chamber of horrors since shield upgrades are expensive. A 4 armor armored unit would suffer 4+8vs armor x2 (24) which is more than it takes from a full upgraded HotS Marauder (22). And shields will take 32 instead of 26 (26 damage instead of 23 at level 3 shields).
Please, don't give out the idea of Marauders having more firepower, they do very well already. BioMineThor/LIberator does relatively well vs Zerg with Ultras. Give better things to Bio, since it has 2 niche units + an empty space for some additional bio unit, and keep mech usable in conjonction to it.
IMAO bio needs Ghosts and Reapers as more central units, Bio should not be only about MMM spam. Ghosts should be like some kind of Sentry to the Protoss army; a unit you want in low numbers since they are costly but with good abilities but having strategical uses in almost every phase of the game. They could try reducing Ghost's cost to 100/100, keeping snipe, adjusting EMP to 100 energy...
What they have to do is to study closely if Ultras really need that much armor after the first Marauder nerf, and test it with HotS values, then +3 upgrade and then +4, and compare: Balance testing.
Ultras have been buffed various times since the begginings of SC2, can we please study the unit with more attention to things like speed, HP regen, additional functions.... (for example, health burrow regen like Roaches or bonus speed with HP under 50%)? I think that DK's Team always fail at studying subtle details, since they want the game to be very obvious in Rock > Scissors > Paper manner.
I'd rather have the Ultra buffed even further and have the 2/3 Ultralisk be added.
Remember, way back when, people? Back in the beginning of your RTS days? When you finally built that Mammoth tank, how awesome that was? That's how ultras felt when you were just starting out in SC as well. Like "wow, I finally got to build this huge thing. I'm gonna go wreck some shit now!"
Maybe it's just because I've been playing Grey Goo, but I really like the legendary unit idea. Remember that amazing Mothership chant during HuK vs SelecT in 2010? I'm into that.
I know we're always addressing every item from an eSport perspective, but I think there's still room for *fun* in SC2.
To TLO's point - having the performance of ZvT entirely predicated on whether or not there's a Drone out is binary and hard-counter and unfun. I completely agree with the 2/3 Ultra, maybe called the Megalisk.
On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote: I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units.
drones don't walk, they hover
If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently.
Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote: I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units.
drones don't walk, they hover
If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently.
Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
hovering means that drones maintain the same speed on and off creep
On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote: I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units.
drones don't walk, they hover
If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently.
Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
TIL. I was a filthy Total Annihilation player, so the intricacies of SC + BW are lost on me.
On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote: I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units.
drones don't walk, they hover
If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently.
Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
TIL. I was a filthy Total Annihilation player, so the intricacies of SC + BW are lost on me.
Well than praise Bisu I'm here to inform people of all the greatness from SC1 and SC2!
On June 24 2015 08:16 Hider wrote: I agree with the analysis (as most others do), but I am not sure you really need that many other changes (like changing HP). I think all it needs is higher off creep movemetn speed and lower movement speed (from its HOTS state).
On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote: I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed.
The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units.
drones don't walk, they hover
If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently.
Hover is an important component of worker units carried over from SC1. It meant they wouldn't trigger stuff like spider mines that required a walking unit to set off. Vultures could hover over mines too. I do wonder what advantages hovering actually adds to SC2 units although I do appreciate the consistency between games.
Wasnt the important part of hover that they could be glide microed the same way as air units? Thats not the case in sc2 thou. Hover does not do anything.
the ghost change is silly but I don't like the idea of a small ultralisk, I think it should be beefy and big. The idea I always liked most concerning them was letting them walk over other zerg units, like colossi walk over protoss units. Slight visual redesign with longer legs and this should be possible.
Otherwise just tweak a bit and remove that silly ghost ability. Give ghosts like a lockdown for biological units instead or something. Ie, something that will only be good vs zerg anyway and has niche uses elsewhere.
On June 24 2015 08:38 banjoetheredskin wrote: With the decreased size, I'm assuming that also means you want to get rid of the massive tag? Or leave it because it should still be able to crush force fields?
A reduced sized ultralisk will still be way bigger than say.. an archon or colossus :-)!
Let's be real about the gameplay with an ultralisk for a moment: There is nothing fun about it. All it's epicness comes from it projecting this awesome picture of an unbeatable meat-fortress in your head. But there is nothing that you can do with an ultralisk that would make it cool. Even more, since it isn't ranged like a Colossus or Thor, you cannot even targetfire or do some basic micro with it. It's bad with drop micro. And faster than transports, so combat dropping for extra speed doesn't exist. The unit is plain and boring as it is currently. The only thing it has going is that it is "epic".
TLO's idea goes into the direction of making it a little less of a clunky meatball. It's not something that makes the ultralisk awesome, but it is the right direction and already much further than blizzard would ever experiment with.
What melee units - all of them besides banelings - really need is some fundamental mechanic that makes you want to control them more. Zerglings kind of get by because they are faster than everything else, so they can engage and disengage at will - but only one unit in the game can be fastest, so other melee units can't have that going for them. Banelings explode, which is also kind of cool. Zealots and Ultralisks? They are garbage unfun units, as would be any other melee and close combat unit (e.g. hellbats, to some degree roaches, though they already have quite some okish range to allow for basic kiting and targetfiring) that one would want to design without giving them some fundamental control potential as ranged units have through targetfire and kite mechanics. (examples for such mechanics would be pushing or overunning opponents)
People have characterized HotS Ultra as practically worthless. Yet in high level casts I have repeatedly seen late game Zerg use half a dozen Ultras to crush a maxed Terran mech army, scything through siege tanks like a knife through butter. It isn't a guaranteed hard counter since positioning is key, the Ultras need space to maneuver and surface area to attack, so the Zerg wants to avoid chokes, maintain good creep spread and use the threat of blinding cloud to encourage tanks to spread out. This strikes me as balanced and fun gameplay.
In the HotS challenge matches I note that in the Terran unit counter exercise Marines are touted as the counter to Ultras with their ability to kite. For shit players like me this is quite hard, but rewarding when you get it right.
So in HotS it seems clear that Ultras counter mech and bio counters Ultras, and the play and counter play potential seems pretty good. Marauders make bio even more effective vs Ultras, but if you dilute your marine ball with too many marauders then you leave yourself open to other counters, plus Marauders are already nerfed in LotV anyway, plus Zerg also has loads of disable casting support units whereas Terran has none.
The issue I have with the LotV changes is it isn't at all clear what vision Blizzard are chasing. If in HotS Ultras counter Mech and bio counters Ultras then what is the logic behind buffing Ultra armour to the point where bio is also useless and Ultras counters both bio _and_ mech?
The same inconsistency is evident in the unit that Blizzard appears to think should be the new Terran counter to Ultras. In HotS Ghosts are not a counter to Ultras at all, with the Ultra armour buff the new drone gimmick still doesn't make Ghosts an actual counter to Ultras, it just means that as long as you have some Ghosts you might not be much worse off than you were in HotS, but even this is tempered by the fact that also having to build these very expensive and slow bio units will dilute the rest of your army and increases the amount of button pushing micro you have to manage.
The removal of snipe also creates an additional asymmetry. In HotS Ghosts had two useful functions against Protoss, EMP drains spellcaster energy and also drains shields, and Ghosts also had two useful functions against Zerg, EMP drains spellcaster energy and snipe.
With the removal of snipe though it seems that Ghosts will actually be less useful against Zerg but that you'll still have to have them anyway because of this new highly artificial drone mechanic whereby they are the only solution to Ultras now hard countering both mech and bio!
I don't see any of this creating potential for more fun gameplay, just more no-decision hard-counters and busywork. I think it's sad that Ghosts don't get used much and I'd like to see them (and BC) buffed with an additional ability (even just perma-cloak for Ghosts would be nice), but despite the fact that they are hardly used in their current form I'd rather see Ghosts and Ultras left as they are than see this gimmicky fiasco of a drone mechanic go live.
Making ultras smaller would be just another instance of giving up on a concept. We have had enough of that in SC2. Everytime Blzzard came up with something that was not just another shooting unit, the different thing about it got hated and eventually nerfed, or not even realized fully. Void single-target charge-up, Immortal immortality, tempest enormous range, you name it ... even siege tanks are a victim of this. Everyone wants everything to be as much the same bland thing as possible in the name of balance (or, if they don't want to admit that, it's in the name of "design", whatever this stupidest buzzword of the year is supposed to mean).
Ultras should be the super-beefy terror-inducing mamoths - nigh unkillable in the open, however struggling to get close when obstalces are present and of course helpless to air. How they die to bio in a split second in HoTS is just laughable and should be fixed so that they get their glory back. No stupid drones, no cheats around the true essence of the unit. If that really makes balance issues, just lower the fucking damage of the thing, increase resource or supply cost ... do essentially anything that is NOT making it easy to kill because that is the only real quality that is supposed to set it apart!
On June 24 2015 08:16 Hider wrote: I agree with the analysis (as most others do), but I am not sure you really need that many other changes (like changing HP). I think all it needs is higher off creep movemetn speed and lower movement speed (from its HOTS state).
It needs to be smaller as well.
Oh typo, i meant this:
I think all it needs is higher off creep movement speed and lower model size (from its HOTS state).
I don't know about the other changes you mentioned but I don't recall massed players clamouring for the Immortal to be nerfed. My impression is that the godawful change to the Immortal shield was dreamed up by Blizzard all by themselves (and I suspect some of the others were too).
Regarding your views on the Ultra I agree with the sentiment of your post, but when you say Ultras die in a split second to bio just how many Ultras and bio are you talking about? If you are talking about 1 Ultra unsupported vs 10 or more marines/marauders then I think it dying pretty quickly is not unreasonable and should be the expected outcome.
Drone or in other words, Terrans corruption ability. Mandatory to be used to make something work. Unless if no one uses it the unit will get a 20% damage buff against Massive.
TLO's thoughts are quite deep. However, if we (we as "we the community") cwant to see more radical changes in Lotv, why not using the ultralisk and see what terran uses against it?
If I understand TLO right, he does not like the ultralisk to be a game ender versus a bio composition. I don't know if that would be so much an issue in pro games; terran players probably get better scouting the ultralisk tech and reacting accordingly in time.
Nice post, it would be amazing to see testing with the suggested Ultra.
But even just testing a plus 3 armor upgrade instead of plus 4 would be better than that silly drone Blizzard introduced. The ghost should get a better Snipe or Lockdown.
This is really no different from collosus and viking, or templar and ghost relationships. I too don't want the game to be hard counter based but that's what blizzard goes for. If P has collosus and T has no viking it's a slaughter, same timing for storm, you need to have ghost out on time, the ultralisk is following the same formula, ultras and no ghosts is slaughter. At least T has liberator to deal with ultras, no alternative is available for collosus or templars, you just need to get vikings and ghosts out on time to deal with P.
I agree that the ghost drone is a poor design choice and the LOTV ultra is too strong vs Terran right now, so something should be changed, but I don't like the counter suggestion because purely from an aesthetic point of view (c.f. the HOTS intro video) I like the concept of the ultra as the biggest unit in the game.
People complain for 5 years about the ultralisk clunkiness due to their size. Blizzard wont change that. They will try EVERYTHING else before they do anything about their size. Even if it means buffing it by such a ridiculous amounts that the other races need certain spells to do anything against them.
On June 25 2015 04:10 DinoMight wrote: I think you can leave the HOTS ultra and the Marauder nerf and be fine. TBH.
But anyway, well written TLO. I could agree with your changes as well.
Pretty much this. I think the Ghost Drone will mess up a lot of things big time. People keep on talking about its interaction with the ultralisk and how it is probably going to be necessary and that sounds true and aweful enough. But the drone sounds like it's going to wreck every bigger unit in the game big time in combination with bio. Like Colossi, Thors, Battlecruisers, Immortals, Broodlords, Carriers, Tempests may all become plainly unplayable if Marines and Marauders do 50 - 100% extra damage to them after a simple tagging. Not as if you couldn't overrun or drop into those units anyways with HotS bio to begin with, but it enforces the issues that players (of Zerg and Protoss) have been voicing since 2010. Play style X against marines, or fuck you.
Hmm, I'd rather see the ultralisk stay the big clunky beefball it is now. 6 supply feels much for what it does, but that happens a lot with zerg supply T_T
The 2/3 ultralisk seems like a pretty shitty idea. Just give us better zerglings ... ? Yea, i'll pass for this one, thanks for putting in the time and effort though.
So basically TLO wants the ghost to have the Brood War medic ability/grenade launcher......that actually sounds great. Though the ghost would have to be able to use it while painting the nuke since overseers and observers are hard to target otherwise. Another thing I would want is some changes to the nuke. Perhaps increasing the amount of time the nuke takes to land and increasing the damage of the nuke or having a radiation effect that does damage over time after a nuclear detonation.
Sidenote: As for the Ghost, just a random thought. How about instead the drone, give them a 100 or 125 energy blinding grenade that can temporarily disable a detector. Cause you know, we haven't seen enough Nukes since I switched to Zerg.
I wasnt prepared that this good article would have good, funniest and concise part at the end. It changed the article quality from really good to great =).
Okay, while I was stoned last night, I realized that what TLO wants is a tier 2.5/early 3 melee unit that can help bridge the gap from melee upgrade styles of Zerg play into a solidly tier 3 composition. In BW, this was achieved by the much-faster and splashless Ultralisks being more of a component and less of the core of the tier 3 Zerg army, while the Defiler served more as the core of the army, being the spellcaster that determined the swing of every battle. In LotV, the Ultralisk is the core of a tier 3 army, and their actions are the main determinant of the Zerg's fate. But moving the Ultralisk down to 2/3 strength and it being more of the tier 3.0 unit means that we'd need a new unit to rise to serve as the core of a melee Zerg army. Presumably that would be a spellcaster. Given that fungal growth has a snare effect, this core of the army would likely be the Infestor.
If the Ultralisk were to be weakened somewhat, I'd advocate an Ultralisk Cavern unlocked upgrade on the Infestation Pit that increased the speed of Infestors to be high enough to keep up to some degree with the speedy Zerg melee army. Maybe bump up the speed from 2.0 to 2.5, and bump up their on-creep bonus movement from 1.3 to 1.5, matching the Hydralisk. It would also behoove us to have the snare effect of fungals exchanged for a strong slow effect instead.
This is a bit too late at this stage of development, but the thought of a tier 2.5/3.0 transitional melee unit into a tier 3.5/4.0 final unit gave me the idea for splitting the Ultralisk into two units. One being a slightly smaller and cheaper version of the BW Ultralisk, no splash, 3 or 4 supply and 4.55 speed, meant to serve as the big, meaty support for Zerglings. The other being the true tier 3.5/4.0 final melee unit, and resembling the current LotV Ultralisk, except slightly more expensive, greater health pool, possibly a little bit slower, and with greater splash damage multiplier than just .33x. Perhaps deem it the Omegalisk, after the WoL alpha unit. They'd end up serving very different roles in the army, as one would easily compliment a Zergling and Mutalisk army throughout the mid and late game, and the other would absolutely require support, but could be used as a massive assault unit that can be thrown at sturdy defenses and break through with spellcaster assistance.
I agree with TLO about the ultralisk completely. The derping has got to stop. And 1 damage marines... I mean cmon.. and I thought they wanted to end hard counters?
About the ghost Idea he tossed out though.., I think its an awesome idea but would be exploited too much, especially in 2v2. Disabling detectors then send in the DT's. It's gotta work in all aspects of the game, not just 1v1.
Thanks TLO, I don't have much to add other than I love how you're talking about both players perspectives. I also love that you're thinking along the lines of smaller, better units to micro and mix a comp around rather than big uninteresting amove units that are strong because of their "tier" and not how they are used.
They basically made the ultralisk the analog to the immortal versus Terran mech. Simply build ultra vs bio and you have a free advantage...it's not a good design and it's not good for game play.
I do not understand why blizzard simply doesn't...revert their mistake...people keep coming up with these ridiculous and far fetched suggestions, and changes...when it's so simple. Just remove the 8 armor ultra abomination and same with that ghost drone that was literally just put in to bandaid patch the 8 armor ultra.
Blizzard needs to really lose some ego in terms of some of their changes. Imo the 8 armor ultra was just a pure mistake...and i feel like a lot of times the blizzard design team is really afraid of reverting a change or admitting that it didn't work out.
All these massive units seem to have the same problems. Too weak, or too powerful, and then they need to be weakened. Thor is a good AA platform in TvT and TvZ but socks at everything else. Battlecruisers are a joke. Broodlord are too slow and aren't as good since Infestors aren't great anymore. Ultralisks have had problems since WOL. Everyone but Protoss hates Tempest which has too much range and makes massive air pointless. Carriers are expensive useless money sinks. COLLUSUS! (shakes fist)
So I dunno. Maybe it's a sign that if you have to keep messing with them with every game release that it's time to just completely rework them. Nostalgia is great and all, but I'd rather see units players are actually going to use, use well, and aren't trash or gimmicky than have the Nostalgia boner the BC or Carrier gives me..
I would like to see Nuke back in action. I haven't seen anyone use Ghost to deal with Hydra/Muta even in Just for Fun games, so what is the point of getting Ghost early. More NUKE. I miss those WoL days when the King using Ghost vs Zerg
The idea of this drone ability alone is so bad that it should stand as testimony to the designers' incompetence. Who the hell would come up with something like that, seriously? Let alone a videogame professional. FLABBERGASTING REALLY
I really like TLO's suggestion about adding a new Terran ghost ability that disables detectors, to try and coax more nuke play.
As far as the ultralisk goes, I agree with most other people that making it a 2/3 ultralisk isn't the best option... but I'm really happy to hear feedback from pros who know what the hell they're talking about
On June 25 2015 13:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I really like TLO's suggestion about adding a new Terran ghost ability that disables detectors, to try and coax more nuke play.
This would be exploited too much, mainly in 2v2, its gotta work for all aspects of the game. Imagine disabling detectors and sending in DT's. I would love to see more nukes as well though :D
On June 24 2015 12:49 Wildmoon wrote: One thing is smaller Ultralisk look aesthetically very silly lol. I think I saw it from Starbow or somewhere.
BW too.
Seriously I know a lot of people think a smaller ultra doesn't "feels right" but ultras where smaller in BW and they where amazing there, SC2 ultra was made big and bulky, and also shit. I it feels even more silly that pretty much everything can kite ultra, I'm sure many users here have know about the "ultras into losing" strat, everytime a player makes ultras they lose (this is of course a joke, but shows the perception players have toward the unit).
Not only smaller,faster, lower damage point ultras are more fun to use, more microable, and better from a design perspective, I think they fit the zerg-y feel zerg units should have.
Also seeing ling/ultra do massive surrounds in BW was pretty amazing, it would be something cool to have, instead of these clunky units that are simply kitted for miles before dying.
Hit the nail on the head, Looking at zerg as a race, they are always about numbers, and having a bit smaller/cheaper ultra just seems right. Not to mention one that doesnt derp.... Too much to ask?
I don't know about the other changes you mentioned but I don't recall massed players clamouring for the Immortal to be nerfed. My impression is that the godawful change to the Immortal shield was dreamed up by Blizzard all by themselves (and I suspect some of the others were too).
Regarding your views on the Ultra I agree with the sentiment of your post, but when you say Ultras die in a split second to bio just how many Ultras and bio are you talking about? If you are talking about 1 Ultra unsupported vs 10 or more marines/marauders then I think it dying pretty quickly is not unreasonable and should be the expected outcome.
With the immortal, I was not talking about the LoTV change, but about the fact that it never really lived up to the original concept - even Blizzard admitted it in patch notes (very long time ago, in WoL), something along the lines that "we noticed players use it more for the burst damagae than then shield" - and instead of trying to change that, they buffed the range, turning it completely to a damage dealer (when instead they imho should have kept the range low to force it to be in the front lines taking fire and buff the shield, the indetitiy of the unit).
afaik the biggest issue of the ultra in HotS was that it just sucked off creep and was way too bulky. That way, it wasn't really good against fast bio nor against a raven composition. auto turret spam would just fuck up the pathing so heavily. maybe a decrease in size would already do the job? I feel like the ghost approach is wrong.
Composition however, shouldn't be all or nothing based on a single ability tailored towards a single unit. There's not any smart decisions to be made, it's just getting a ghost in time or not. It's incredibly frustrating and anti-fun having to deal with an almost indestructible unit because you missed your window.
ok then let's also adress: dt (got detection in place?), oracle (got spore/turret?), banshee (got aa/detection?), flyingsiegetank (are you perfectly prepared and make not a single micro mistake?) because these are all - as good as - indestructible and can kill you early game just because you missed your window.
so now that there's one thing that terrans really have to look out for (they have scans btw and ultralisk cave is lategame, plus building time) even a pro zerg thinks this is too harsh on our poor terrans. that is sweet.
I don't know about the other changes you mentioned but I don't recall massed players clamouring for the Immortal to be nerfed. My impression is that the godawful change to the Immortal shield was dreamed up by Blizzard all by themselves (and I suspect some of the others were too).
Regarding your views on the Ultra I agree with the sentiment of your post, but when you say Ultras die in a split second to bio just how many Ultras and bio are you talking about? If you are talking about 1 Ultra unsupported vs 10 or more marines/marauders then I think it dying pretty quickly is not unreasonable and should be the expected outcome.
With the immortal, I was not talking about the LoTV change, but about the fact that it never really lived up to the original concept - even Blizzard admitted it in patch notes (very long time ago, in WoL), something along the lines that "we noticed players use it more for the burst damagae than then shield" - and instead of trying to change that, they buffed the range, turning it completely to a damage dealer (when instead they imho should have kept the range low to force it to be in the front lines taking fire and buff the shield, the indetitiy of the unit).
I don't think range is as defining as you think, since Immortals are based on a dragoon, which was a mid-ranged unit. Having more range reduces casualities even more, since it means less exposition. Even with 7 range makes Immortals harder to access, so less mortality rates in that aspect.
I think that the problem is that they made the Immortal not immortal at all, just very resistant against tanks because of how the passive, but the unit needed an insane burst damage to feel useful. They adjusted to a lore that said that they gave Immortals a shield to resist big impacts.
An "inmmortal" should be a unit that:
1- Is not that easy to catch (decent mobility and range) 2- When caught, is not that easy to burst it down. Either via passive abilities (as a constant) or active (less constant) 3 - It has inmense survival between fights (easy retreat, can go out and in) 4 - Regenerates fast. 5 - Tanks more damage than it deals, and scale very well with shield upgrades. 6 - Forces the opponent to attack indirectly or by absolute bruteforce (swarming, harrasing or stomping heavily with endgame units) 7 - Can be present in moderate numbers (7-10, like archons) setting up a hit squad that it is able to relevate themselves at tanking and regenerating out of the fight, taking good advantage of micro (like the original idea for Roach Burrow regen).
IMAO the immortal should be a bit more countering towards mid-game units and stronger vs earlygame units, but not so hardcountering to some units like Tanks and Ultralisks, which has cut that units out of the meta vP.
Immortal design fails:
- Immortals fail at mobility, there is hardly any retreat maneuvers you can pull off them; - Hardened Shields are very strong vs tanks and lategame units (blocks a big % of the damage and that units attack very slow) but much less effective vs minor units (only 10 hits), and since there is no big range advantage (6) other units with 5-6 range have an easy time picking them. - Shields regenerate slow (also new active) - It can't do much if focused. - As the unit doesn't work as intended, it is given big damage to mitigate the ineffectiveness of it.
They should try new things. So far barrier doesn't work very well, and some of the core problems of the Immortal persist.
I don't think range is as defining as you think, since Immortals are based on a dragoon, which was a mid-ranged unit. Having more range reduces casualities even more, since it means less exposition. Even with 7 range makes Immortals harder to access, so less mortality rates in that aspect.
A little side comment, but I think the Immortal could benefit from both higher range and mobility. 7 range for instance would make it more rewarded for focus firing specific enemy targets during engagements. As a general, it makes more sense for more expensive "high burst based units" to have slightly more range than massable cheap units (where FFing isn't really practical anyway).
I think brood war is a good case study supporting the smaller sized ultra. If you look at engagements in BW, where unit AI was pretty bad compared to SC2, you rarely see ultras getting stuck behind other units, stuck on terrain, etc. They're also nice and fast off creep. They're so much more useful because you can actually get them into position.
Immortal with mobility&range? We don't call DT's immortal, because we cannot catch it, I'm pretty sure the purpose is that you keep hitting this guy and he simply won't die. Would love to see a lower range version of this unit.
On June 25 2015 23:42 ejozl wrote: Immortal with mobility&range? We don't call DT's immortal, because we cannot catch it, I'm pretty sure the purpose is that you keep hitting this guy and he simply won't die. Would love to see a lower range version of this unit.
Name is irrelevant here. The goal should be to create a fun microable unit that fits well into the protoss composition.
On June 25 2015 23:42 ejozl wrote: Immortal with mobility&range? We don't call DT's immortal, because we cannot catch it, I'm pretty sure the purpose is that you keep hitting this guy and he simply won't die. Would love to see a lower range version of this unit.
DTs cannot be called immortals since they are very, very squisy, and any army with detection will just shit on them with minimal effort.
If DT's had 8 range (lower exposition), 400HP/400 shields and 3.5 speed for example, they would seem immortal, because it would be damn hard to focus them correctly, since 8 units can place themselves in a comfort zone behind the fire line of most units (5-6) and even when focused, 800HP per unit and big speed just would allow them to run, recharge shields, and go. Imagine also Siege Tanks with blink, even with 10 damage only. Would you touch them?
Immortality is about having traits that keep you safe and prevent death (escape, regenereration, zoning, low exposition, tanking). So far, the Immortal only has 1, which is tanking, balanced with big DPS to be somewhat useful.
Immortals are supposed to be relatively weak vs meele and minor units, and stand heavy fire. However, Immortals seem only Immortals vs SiegeTanks and Archons in 1v1. In other cases, they seem more Destroyers/Busters than Immortals. Immortals are practically shit vs another thing that is not Stalkers, pure Roach or SiegeTanks/ Ultralisks (the units they counter more because the high damage mitigation proportionally)
A 5/4 range inmortal is very unviable, mainly because of the low speed, but also because of the high exposition. 5-6 range units in SC2 have very good DPS density, so being in range disadvantage implies that even before firing you can take a lot of damage. Just look at how the Ultralisk has been buffed continously. Consider that range also balances the exposition of the unit, and that is part of how Immortal it feels.
If you decrease the range on Immortals and give them better tanking ( 200/300 stats for example) then it becomes a glorified almost-meele unit.Also, it doesn't make any sense to have a semimeele unit that deals heavy damage on low range and tanks damage: That's what Archons are for to some extent, but you need shield upgrades for it. Archons don't take bonus damage from any source and that is stronger than it seems, for sure.
If you give better passive and damage at low range, then you have a similar unit like the one you have now, very similar to the case before: almost semimeele. It makes very little sense game-play wise, and even more lore-wise, considering that Immortals are GtG specialized Dragoons. I have a unit with two megacannons on top of it, derivated from a dragoon and it's... almost meele¿? WTF?
I don't know if you know about the Immortal design, but originally, they were 5 range because there was a range upgrade up to 7 range. They were renewed dragoons. The passive went trhoug various designs with the same concept, and the damage kept rising to justify the increasing cost and tech level of the Immortal, which was too strong to be at Gateway.
I think the Immortal would take advantage of a design that prefered microability and diminished exposition+ good tanking instead of busting damage. Right now, there is little difference between the roles of the Immortal and the VoidRay.
Did not know of this, interesting, then it makes more sense that they buffed their range at some point. Still would not mind seeing a beefier close-quarter Immortal, kind of like a shotgun, but it does make my point of possible intended design moot.
On June 25 2015 23:42 ejozl wrote: Immortal with mobility&range? We don't call DT's immortal, because we cannot catch it, I'm pretty sure the purpose is that you keep hitting this guy and he simply won't die. Would love to see a lower range version of this unit.
Name is irrelevant here. The goal should be to create a fun microable unit that fits well into the protoss composition.
Yeah, I gotta echo this. I love the lore as much as the next guy, but retooling the Immortal to be more "immortal" (when it already is plenty that for its cost) is just nonsensical.
On June 26 2015 11:33 NKexquisite wrote: How are you supposed to deal w/ 8+ ultralisks? Are you just dead if you play Terran? Sounds like it from what Im reading.
This thing of adding "+" at the end of number to make them look larger is starting to get silly. :/ But yes "8+" armour ultras are very good vs bio. 8 armour is hard enough, but then when you go into 9 or 10 it gets silly.
On June 25 2015 23:41 TheFish7 wrote: I think brood war is a good case study supporting the smaller sized ultra. If you look at engagements in BW, where unit AI was pretty bad compared to SC2, you rarely see ultras getting stuck behind other units, stuck on terrain, etc. They're also nice and fast off creep. They're so much more useful because you can actually get them into position.
Completely random but that casters voice reminds me of Randal from Clerks lol =+ Show Spoiler +
1:20 into the clip. Casters just missin the Jersey accent.
Back to the topic, I'd be curious to see some showmatches with a 2/3 ultra, or even just a smaller unit model to see if that fixes the derping. Also would be interesting to see the speed off creep adjusted
On June 25 2015 23:42 ejozl wrote: Immortal with mobility&range? We don't call DT's immortal, because we cannot catch it, I'm pretty sure the purpose is that you keep hitting this guy and he simply won't die. Would love to see a lower range version of this unit.
Name is irrelevant here. The goal should be to create a fun microable unit that fits well into the protoss composition.
Yeah, I gotta echo this. I love the lore as much as the next guy, but retooling the Immortal to be more "immortal" (when it already is plenty that for its cost) is just nonsensical.
What's next, Reapers don't reap enough?
I guess you can make Immortals more "immortal" if you make them far less destructive. Immos have better DPS than VoidRays, that are "Glass cannon" type units. And Voidrays are more expensive and more fragile.
Immortals have around 14 base DPS and 35 DPS vs armored, the same as a Battlecruiser. For comparaison, an Ultralisk has 40DPS. It makes very little sense to have that much DPS on a "supposed" mid-game unit that costs only 100 gas. Immortals are more "Armor Destroyers" than Immortals. But if you reduce the DPS vs armor notably, you can make it fairly more tanky, specially vs Roach/Hydra/Stalkers/Marauders, and less "HighCost huge damage", which is the fail of most protoss units.
In fact, Immortal shields only resist 10 hits, which takes normally 1 volley from a little pack of burst-based units, and that happens in a matter of 1-2 seconds. The lower the attack speed of the units you face, the better immortals are, and more "immortals" they feel. Specially because you will tear them in a matter of seconds.
Hardened shields block a relatively small % of the damage from Roach/Hydra/Stalker/Marauders and shields deplete almost isntantly, compared to the ammount of damage it blocks from high-damage units that attack slower (Tempests, DTs, Archons) and the time it takes to deplete their shields.
Less insane DPS = slight decrease in cost and production time, better tanking, more "immortal" and 5-8 immortal packs instead of 2-3.
Less "Terrible Terrible damage, high cost units" better game, less all-in / win or lose in 1 battle.
Ultras definitely need a speed buff, and increasing their ability to be microed is obviously a good thing. I agree that a armor-decreasing spell is very esoteric.
I wouldn't mind seeing more nukes, but as is, it's very hard to figure out what's being nuked. Putting spores & spines at every base is quite expensive, then getting your spores or overseers blinded seems incredibly strong.
Some kind of adjustment would be needed so zerg can have a chance to react to the nukes, and not just suddenly lose 2-3 bases full of drones to split up ghosts with nukes. Maybe increase the size of the red dot so it's easier to spot or something...
On June 26 2015 11:33 NKexquisite wrote: How are you supposed to deal w/ 8+ ultralisks? Are you just dead if you play Terran? Sounds like it from what Im reading.
no but you might have a problem if you expect to wreck everything from early to late game with only bio/mines/medivacs like usual. you actually have to scout the zergs tech (scans are useful from what i've heard) and then react unit-comp-wise to the zerg teching to ultras.
is there really any need for this stupid ghost buff? why not give terrans "some time to adjust to the new situation"? just like zerg was given plenty of time to adjust to the triple terran buff and the sh nerf. for example, terrans have the cyclon right? the fast thing with the stupid auto cast lock on function and nice dps right? and the liberator, the thing that oneshots everything within that green circle.
Why are they so afraid of copying brood war? Brood war ultralisks actually functioned quite well. Just make them smaller and slightly faster off creep for christs sake. We don't need a math equation fix, except in that 3/3 marauders and tanks (v mech) kill ultras far too quickly for something that is supposed to be "beefy" in HotS.
In fact, just make brood war with better graphics, ai pathing, unlimited unit boxing, and multiple production structure selection
MUCH more depth. Way beyond the simple model of make huge deathball, crush a single engagement, win.
Why are they so afraid of copying brood war? Brood war ultralisks actually functioned quite well. Just make them smaller and slightly faster off creep for christs sake. We don't need a math equation fix, except in that 3/3 marauders and tanks (v mech) kill ultras far too quickly for something that is supposed to be "beefy" in HotS.
My bet is that they want Ultralisk to hardcounter bio play in straight up engagements. But bio play (once it gets the new dropupgrade) are much more mobile than the Ultralisk and thus you can win through multitasking. In order to win straight up engagements, you can get Ghosts.
The issue with their logic is that noone actually desires that type of gameplay. Noone wants to be forced to use a boring spellcaster in order to fight against Ultralisk.
And zergs don't want an unmicroable amove Ultralisk that cannot be killed in straight up engagements while having to chase drops all around the map (and thus indirectly be forced into Mutalisks to deal with the drops).
As you point out, the proper solution is so simple:
(1) Faster off-creep Ultras (2) Lower-model size
With regards to the Ghost, yes Snipe is awfully flawed, but this armor reducing drone thing is not the correct solution. I don't think a skillshot would fit the unit idea (for various reasons), but what about a defensive ability that boosts your own units?
I know I'm no pro here but it feels really crappy to take the tankiness away from the ultra and force a Zerg to rely on some other (less efficient) way to deal with the gobs and gobs of bio they face.
I thought the anti-armor drone was an "OK" way to get ghosts involved in the game again. It's not like that's their only use. Maybe if people felt compelled to use them they're realize they have other tools in their arsenal that are worth the investment.
The way it is now, Ultras are an "in your face" counter to bio and turn the game around. Terran goes from a bio parade pressure to drops everywhere to punish the Zergs immobility. Any game I've played as ZvT has generally gone like so:
Terran harass/scout > Zerg defends and drones > Zerg harass/map control > Terran defends > Terran drop harass > Zerg air or lurker > Terran bio push - constant pressure > Zerg holds or dies > Zerg T3 (ultras) > Zerg pressures and looks for big fight > Terran has enough to stop head on assault or resorts to massive pronged attack strategy.
It has usually felt quite fluid and fast-paced. I like that. I feel changing the ultra will ruin what is (for me, at least) a fun match up with a lot of dynamic gameplay.
Reduce creep modifier from 1,3 -> 1,15 Improve off creep speed by 5% from 2,9531 to 3,1 New On creep speed from: 3,83903 -> 3,396065
The supposed new on-creep speed of 3.396069375 (to be precise) ÷ 1.15 = 2.953125, which is supposedly not the off-creep speed in Dario's mind. If off-creep speed is supposedly increased to this 3.1, and the new creep multiplier for ultralisks is to be 1.15, this would make the on-creep would be 3.565(+ whatever decimals because it probably wouldn't actually have been exactly 3.1 ). 3.565898 by my reckoning.
On June 24 2015 09:05 Charoisaur wrote: passive effect? why not an active ability? Maybe something like a spell you have to activate and then your ultras do 10% more damage for 5 seconds. I should work for blizzard!
Charoisaur, I believe everything I've ever seen you type is garbage. Is that arrogance that causes you to think your reasoning makes you ideal for Blizzard, or is it that you think poorly of Blizzard, so you wish to amplify their mistakes? Active abilities for the sake of having more active abilities does not necessarily make the game a more skill-based one, certainly doesn't make it more fun and forces "micro' that does not feel like micro, or look like micro. More active abilities instead of positioning and actual careful and/or fancy control of the units is impressive. Pressing a button doesn't always have the same "wow" factor (stupid term, sorry), let alone when that's what nearly all the micro becomes. That's exactly what we don't need more of, I though this was pretty much the consensus by now (or years ago).
EDIT: Unless you were being sarcastic... In that case, one not-rubbish post for a change.
On June 30 2015 15:16 Mjolnir wrote:I thought the anti-armor drone was an "OK" way to get ghosts involved in the game again. It's not like that's their only use. Maybe if people felt compelled to use them they're realize they have other tools in their arsenal that are worth the investment.
This is self-evidently not the case. Entire tournaments have run without a single player building a single Ghost, and if the highest rated players in the game don't consider them a useful investment then who's to say they are wrong?
You encourage a unit's use by giving it some genuine utility. An arbitrary gimmick that forces the unit to be created since it is the only hard counter to another unit is a lame approach that lacks depth.
Something else to consider is visual spam. In a large TvZ fight you can have Ravens spamming sentry drones, seeker missiles and point defense turrets, Infesters puking infested Terrans all over the battlefield and the whole thing overlaid with blinding cloud and blobs of air units. It's hard enough to see what's going on as it is, do we really need more drones being spammed out, there has to be a better way.
I don't think most people see making Ultras a bit smaller and faster as a nerf, the intent is to make it easier for them to engage effectively. They are already reasonably tanky, in the light of the Marauder nerf I think the 8 armour buff is unnecessary, it would be doubly unnecessary if siege tank splash damage were toned down a bit in line with the suggestions in the Mech Fixes thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/488487-mech-fixes
neato writeup. I really don't like blizzard just adding a bunch of 1 click things and calling it increasing the micro, it just doesn't look or feel cool to me. nexus cannon, void damage, armor drone, i mean is it really a thoughtful/interesting interaction? I hate to be overly critical to the blizzard team though
On June 28 2015 17:59 Jwrath wrote: Why are they so afraid of copying brood war? Brood war ultralisks actually functioned quite well. Just make them smaller and slightly faster off creep for christs sake. We don't need a math equation fix, except in that 3/3 marauders and tanks (v mech) kill ultras far too quickly for something that is supposed to be "beefy" in HotS.
My guess is that they want ultralisks to look impressive, like Thors, Battlecruisers or Carriers. They want to give Zerg one huge super late game unit so that all the little Zerg newbies can get wet dreams when they are thinking about it.
But I personally think that this is just against the zerg design and doesnt feel zergy at all.
On July 12 2015 18:09 BreakfastBurrito wrote: neato writeup. I really don't like blizzard just adding a bunch of 1 click things and calling it increasing the micro, it just doesn't look or feel cool to me. nexus cannon, void damage, armor drone, i mean is it really a thoughtful/interesting interaction? I hate to be overly critical to the blizzard team though
In general, if you feel overly critical, try to be constructive by suggesting how it can be done better. Then it turns into a helpful suggestion instead of criticism. So in this case, what properties should a thoughtful/interesting/cool interaction have in your mind? Tricky question though! :o
On June 30 2015 15:16 Mjolnir wrote:I thought the anti-armor drone was an "OK" way to get ghosts involved in the game again. It's not like that's their only use. Maybe if people felt compelled to use them they're realize they have other tools in their arsenal that are worth the investment.
This is self-evidently not the case. Entire tournaments have run without a single player building a single Ghost, and if the highest rated players in the game don't consider them a useful investment then who's to say they are wrong?
You encourage a unit's use by giving it some genuine utility. An arbitrary gimmick that forces the unit to be created since it is the only hard counter to another unit is a lame approach that lacks depth.
Something else to consider is visual spam. In a large TvZ fight you can have Ravens spamming sentry drones, seeker missiles and point defense turrets, Infesters puking infested Terrans all over the battlefield and the whole thing overlaid with blinding cloud and blobs of air units. It's hard enough to see what's going on as it is, do we really need more drones being spammed out, there has to be a better way.
I don't think most people see making Ultras a bit smaller and faster as a nerf, the intent is to make it easier for them to engage effectively. They are already reasonably tanky, in the light of the Marauder nerf I think the 8 armour buff is unnecessary, it would be doubly unnecessary if siege tank splash damage were toned down a bit in line with the suggestions in the Mech Fixes thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/488487-mech-fixes
It's self-evidently not the case because Ghosts were nerfed into oblivion. Before they were nerfed, you saw them all the time. If you give people a reason to make them, they will.
As it stands now (and for the last few years), why would Terran want to do anything other than 4M bio when it solves every problem a Terran has?
EPT
