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Straight forward into the issues of Mech:
1. Tanks are weak in small numbers and too strong in large numbers.
2. Cyclones are very good vs ground but don't have AA anymore in early-mid game.
3. Thors does not have a clear role with Liberator coming to the game.
Discussion of Tanks:
The reason the tanks sucks in small numbers is because how weak their attack vs single target.
The reason the tanks too strong in large numbers is because they don't overkill.
What can be done to fix this issue?
1. Tanks can have the campaign single target damage upgrade in tech lap unlocked with armory or fusion core that affects ONLY single target attack and the splash damage remains the same. This fixes the tanks issue in small numbers.
2. Tanks can use reduction on the attack speed from 2.8 to 3.5 for example or they can be made to overkill. This fixes the tanks issue in large numbers.
Discussion of Cyclones:
In my opinion, Cyclones should be exact the opposite of what they are now. They should be mainly AA and maybe have AG attack that supports mech later. The issue that resulted in making cyclones too good at shutting everything early game is because they have the same attack for air and ground. Thus it was hard to be balanced against one without affecting the other. If it was like the Goliath, missiles for air and gun for ground, they could have been balanced easily.
What can be done to fix the Cyclones?
1. Introduce a different attack mode for the cyclones to separate the AG and AA so it can be easily balanced.
2. Make the Cyclone mainly AA unit as mech should have Hellion/Hellbats + Tanks as AG.
3. Cost fixes to be around 150/100 (for example) along with nerfs to HP (maybe around 140 would be good?).
Discussion of Thors:
Well... This is the hard part for me as I have no idea what thors could do. I hope to hear ideas from you about it.
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Already having BW tanks with BW stats would help mech alot.
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I agree with everything but this are not fixes IMO but a different direction. Blizz want speed speed speed, that's why the Cyclone is an "alternative" anti ground to the Tank. Even the Liberator is an alternative to the siege weapon.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 24 2015 07:58 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Already having BW tanks with BW stats would help mech alot.
You would need to turn off their smart shooting AI. Remember that BW tanks are different than SC2 tanks. SC2 tanks won't all shoot at 1 zergling.
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1. Tanks are weak in small numbers and too strong in large numbers.
im convinced this is how it should be
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On June 24 2015 17:09 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I agree with everything but this are not fixes IMO but a different direction. Blizz want speed speed speed, that's why the Cyclone is an "alternative" anti ground to the Tank. Even the Liberator is an alternative to the siege weapon.
This is stupid. This kind of design that resulted in all this mess. For example, we don't want colossus, thus lets make it useless and introduce a new unit to fill its role. Why not either remove it completely or redesign it completely? Why do we have to end with tons of useless units?
Mech suffers from lack of reliable AA. Cyclone can handle that part, why make it take the tanks role, making tanks useless and leave the AA gap remaining? Seriously how the hell did they come up with this design philosophy.
On June 24 2015 19:37 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
1. Tanks are weak in small numbers and too strong in large numbers.
im convinced this is how it should be
What I mean they suck in small numbers is that they are bad in small numbers is that you cannot afford doing small pushes with them, you are forced to turtle to get large number and go out. What I mean by too strong in large numbers is that they can obliterate armies in 2-3 shot. Thus it is promoting turtling and deathballing.
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The Medivac pick up on Tanks is something that definitely buffs low number of Tanks vs large number of Tanks.
I think Thors will get some kind of ability along the way, they've tried with the mm Strike Cannons and the Reconstruct ability.
I think anti air is okay atm, with Widow Mine+Thor+Turret->Cyclones late game. That's without incorperating units from non-Factory, it's definitely not Mechs strength, but I think the Anti Air is decent.
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Why do you think that tanks are too strong in large numbers? They are the ultimate GtG weapon, they are supposed to be strong, that is their whole point of existence! On the other hand, they are immobile (barring the rather silly siege pickup, but you won't be able to have medivacs for every tank, if you have a lot of them), have no AA, can kill eachother when dropped on etc...
The reluctance to have a strong tank, often supported by community whining about imaginary "tank abuse" is the main reason why "mech" struggles to be an interresting way to play Terran in SC2. I for one would support having tanks even stronger than now.
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When they let you shoot backwards while moving as suggested by David Kim and you can fly them with medivacs... Tanks will be scary awesome in pro-matches.
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1. I think tanks are quite OK the way they are right now (in HotS). I really don't like the idea of them being lifted and dropped around by Medivacs. It feels just dumb, it does not promonte positioning while promoting APM only. (If you are fast enough, you can, and should, save your tanks from any position.) If they could be lifted but would emerge unsieged, that would be a much better option, in my opinion. That way you could still save them with good micro, but you could not abuse them by attacking with their insane siege range instantly after they are saved.
2. I'm not a fan of the Cyclones, either, because you can build mass Cyclone which is pretty efficient against everything, especially with the AA upgrade. It's true that due to the AA upgrade, Cyclones remain less defining, but I'm fine with it.
3. Liberators and Thors do overlap quite a bit. It seems to me that the Liberator is actually a flying Thor+Siege Tank combo (kind of). Since Thors are mainly built as AA, Liberators seem to be a bit better in that role. I like the concept of the Liberator, but I would love to see some nerfs to it, so Thors will be used as well.
For example: make the Liberator require a Tech Lab. And nerf its speed already! Oh and the AG damage. Is it still 85? I get that it is single target, but what other unit hits for 85 damage? Not to mention that it scales very well with upgrades, with +3/+3 it's like 94 or something. I think it is way too much.
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On June 24 2015 21:58 nottapro wrote:
When they let you shoot backwards while moving as suggested by David Kim and you can fly them with medivacs... Tanks will be scary awesome in pro-matches.
Shooting backward and moving won't do much other than on retreat- Siege tank excells when its sieged, not when it is unsieged.
Being able to drop-pickup with medivac is just plain silly in my opinion though.It goes against the very soul of the unit idea. Maybe being able to pick them up while being sieged is fine but there has to be bigger trade off.
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I guess I need to make some clarification.
I'm totally against the idea of picking sieged tanks. It is totally stupid as many already said, it goes against the definition of the unit. Beside the only reason they made it so is to promote harass as explained in LOTV beta video, as the worker massacre methods we have in HOTS needed more buffs...
I'm against massing Cyclones and call it mech. Mech is about composition. Not one unit army like the Cyclone was. Cyclone needs to have a defined role. I think the best role it can have is the anti air units (Mainly armored + capital ships) like the goliath was.
Thor is just too clunky and slow, the only reason it was created in the first place is to fulfill Blizzard's fantasy of the super T3 ultimate ground weapon that costs 300/200/6 for all races. Seriously we need to fill missing roles first. Thor is just... I don't know, I don't see a place for thor in the mech army and I'm with its removal though I know it won't happen.
Were BW tanks OP vs single target? Majority of the units in SC2 got heath buff and Tanks got damage nerf. IMO it is too weak vs 1 target hit. I'm all for allowing that upgrade to increase the single target damage WITHOUT affecting the splash.
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On June 24 2015 07:58 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Already having BW tanks with BW stats would help mech alot.
No thank you. There is a good reason why BW tanks are not back here. It would completely destroy the balance of the game.
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On June 24 2015 22:16 Sholip wrote:
1. I think tanks are quite OK the way they are right now (in HotS). I really don't like the idea of them being lifted and dropped around by Medivacs. It feels just dumb
Not only does it feel dumb, it is dumb indeed ! Tanks strength should rely on careful positioning, medivac dropping gets around that far too easily. Fortunately DK and the dev team seem to be aware of the issue and I like the solution they're envisioning (you can rescue a sieged tank in a medivac but he'll be dropped unsieged again).
I'm not a fan of cyclones either. The design and the role of the unit seem unclear, while the profusion of range indicators dots everywhere is plain irritating.
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On June 24 2015 22:59 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 07:58 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Already having BW tanks with BW stats would help mech alot. No thank you. There is a good reason why BW tanks are not back here. It would completely destroy the balance of the game.
Please explain.
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On June 24 2015 23:54 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 22:59 parkufarku wrote:On June 24 2015 07:58 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Already having BW tanks with BW stats would help mech alot. No thank you. There is a good reason why BW tanks are not back here. It would completely destroy the balance of the game. Please explain.
2 Supply Siege Tanks that have smart fire and 70+ damage? At least BW had dragoons which were much tankier than Stalkers. Even in BW, Protoss army had a hard time engaging a T mech army head on 200/200, and had to resort to all kinds of spells and tricks (zealot bombs, storm, etc.)
These tanks on the weaker SC2 gateway army would just wreak havoc. Storms are weaker too in SC2.
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BW tanks were not OP. And protoss could have stasis most of the mech army and engage. Anyway we are not here to discuss BW TvP mech. We are talking about making Tanks hit harder on a single target. That would be much better than trolling with medivac.
What are your ideas about that and the mech design in general and how can it be improved?
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On June 25 2015 01:00 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 23:54 WrathSCII wrote:On June 24 2015 22:59 parkufarku wrote:On June 24 2015 07:58 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Already having BW tanks with BW stats would help mech alot. No thank you. There is a good reason why BW tanks are not back here. It would completely destroy the balance of the game. Please explain. 2 Supply Siege Tanks that have smart fire and 70+ damage? At least BW had dragoons which were much tankier than Stalkers. Even in BW, Protoss army had a hard time engaging a T mech army head on 200/200, and had to resort to all kinds of spells and tricks (zealot bombs, storm, etc.) These tanks on the weaker SC2 gateway army would just wreak havoc. Storms are weaker too in SC2.
Dragoons had a little bit more hitpoints and dealt a little less dps than stalkers, were slower, more expensive, and needed an upgrade to match the range.
Stalkers are cheaper range goons with better mobility. They are literally buffed dragoons.
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On June 25 2015 01:00 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 23:54 WrathSCII wrote:On June 24 2015 22:59 parkufarku wrote:On June 24 2015 07:58 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Already having BW tanks with BW stats would help mech alot. No thank you. There is a good reason why BW tanks are not back here. It would completely destroy the balance of the game. Please explain. 2 Supply Siege Tanks that have smart fire and 70+ damage? At least BW had dragoons which were much tankier than Stalkers. Even in BW, Protoss army had a hard time engaging a T mech army head on 200/200, and had to resort to all kinds of spells and tricks (zealot bombs, storm, etc.) These tanks on the weaker SC2 gateway army would just wreak havoc. Storms are weaker too in SC2.
If they have smart fire, then they aren't BW tanks.
I think you miss the point.
However I agree, since Blizz won't take away the smart fire ever, BW tanks may not be the best solution, though we do need stronger tanks somehow.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dORF46X.png)
