EPTGames have to be decided by control and positioning not stupid abilities and composition wars.
TLO's thoughts: The LotV ultralisk - Page 4
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
Games have to be decided by control and positioning not stupid abilities and composition wars. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On June 24 2015 17:09 Cascade wrote: Ah, found the link: Gamespot interview with dustin browder during hots beta I never thought I'd quote dustin browder for wisdom, but: Isn't it a bit like that with ghost and Ultra? If zerg stops building ultras and goes back to 3-3 ling-bling muta, then what will all the ghosts do? EMP infestors? nuke? snipe banes/mutas? What do you think? Is there a use for the ghost without ultras? Will there ever be a reason to build ghost if not to counter ultras? Going off a bit of a tangent here, but I recently thought about the differences in design philosophies between Dustin Browder and David Kim. David Kim is definitely a guy who wants constant action and harass with lots of abilities (so you constantly need to press buttons). On the other hand, DB is more a guy who try to add cool/fun stuff without giving so much detail to the skillcap. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3357 Posts
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed. The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 24 2015 18:04 Gowerly wrote: I would argue that Ultras shouldn't get speed bonus on creep at all. I mean - Fungal doesn't slow an ultra - MSC Timewarp, a spell that literally warps time, does not slow an ultra So why should the fact that the ground isn't purple slow an ultra? Drones currently don't slow down off creep, so there's a precedent for it. I think it'd give the ultra a way for zerg to engage late game off creep if it was just a base 3.2 move speed. The idea of composition wars is cool (read: no it isn't), but in general you won't have an army of ghosts, you'll have a few, so a switch back to 3-3 ling bling or whatever would just go back to getting minced by MMM, especially with how fast T can replenish those units. drones don't walk, they hover | ||
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
If that's the case it's the most pointless hovering I've ever seen, they can't do anything units with legs can't. I guess then the queen's increased on/off creep difference still applies and I stand by the idea that ultras shouldn't have an off-creep penalty at all, as it would fit with the rest of their behavior more consistently. | ||
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On June 24 2015 08:19 Athenau wrote: Hmm, where are those Marauder numbers coming from? LotV Marauder with +3 upgrades = 2x(5+5+3 - 8) = 10 damage, not 16. For what it's worth, I agree with the overall analysis. You are correct and OP is wrong. Here are the actual numbers Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5% Marauders were pretty much removed from the game. As even with the drone they are much weaker than in HotS. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 24 2015 19:05 NasusAndDraven wrote: You are correct and OP is wrong. Here are the actual numbers Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5% Marauders were pretty much removed from the game. As even with the drone they are much weaker than in HotS. Damn, I had no idea Ultras were so strong and marauders so weak in the beta, that's ridiculous hahaha. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4001 Posts
LotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hits this is 0-0 marine vs 3-5 ultralisk? or what? When i read 500 hits, i automatically imagine a single player campaign mission, not a competitive multiplayer game. can someone please give a quick link to the stats? | ||
Liquid`TLO
Germany767 Posts
On June 24 2015 19:05 NasusAndDraven wrote: You are correct and OP is wrong. Here are the actual numbers Marauder vs Ultra: HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5% Marauders were pretty much removed from the game. As even with the drone they are much weaker than in HotS. wow I figured they'd keep marauders +1 for each damage type to keep their anti-armour scaling similar to hots. That actually makes my case stronger. That's plain awful if true. | ||
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
On June 24 2015 19:30 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: wait LotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hits this is 0-0 marine vs 3-5 ultralisk? or what? When i read 500 hits, i automatically imagine a single player campaign mission, not a competitive multiplayer game. can someone please give a quick link to the stats? Fully upgraded ultralisk in LotV has 8 armour. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On June 24 2015 19:30 Liquid`TLO wrote: wow I figured they'd keep marauders +1 for each damage type to keep their anti-armour scaling similar to hots. That actually makes my case stronger. That's plain awful if true. Yea the marauder rework makes them stronger against targets that have no armour, but anything with 2 or more armour they're weaker. These figures are the correct ones. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4001 Posts
On June 24 2015 19:37 Gowerly wrote: Fully upgraded ultralisk in LotV has 8 armour. Weapon of choice for my zerg LOTV beta. | ||
Jer99
Canada8157 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24193 Posts
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
But seriously, I too want this. SC2 units just feel bad compared to the BW units. I want my Goliaths, I want my Vultures, I want my Valkyries, I want my BW Hydras and my BW Ultras and my BW Reavers and my BW Dark Archons and my... and my... and my... | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3367 Posts
If Ultralisks are too strong, I think a cool way to nerf them is to remove Frenzy. It becomes this huge freaking monster that you have to avoid at all cost, needing Time Warp/Stasis/Abduct/Neural Parasite/Fungal/Drone to hold the beast back. Also will have to abuse the AI and the melee range of the unit, with use of Structures/Cliffs/Kiting/Small chokes, without this you don't stand a chance. For me at least this is a cooler mechanic than a larger Zergling. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On June 24 2015 17:50 Hider wrote: Going off a bit of a tangent here, but I recently thought about the differences in design philosophies between Dustin Browder and David Kim. David Kim is definitely a guy who wants constant action and harass with lots of abilities (so you constantly need to press buttons). On the other hand, DB is more a guy who try to add cool/fun stuff without giving so much detail to the skillcap. There is a lot of stuff you say about DB but it's pretty clear from his interviews he tries to make fun games before anything else. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On June 24 2015 19:30 Liquid`TLO wrote: wow I figured they'd keep marauders +1 for each damage type to keep their anti-armour scaling similar to hots. That actually makes my case stronger. That's plain awful if true. The bonus damage doesn't seem to scale. If it did, then at max upgrades it's 8+8vs armor x 2 (32 damage) instead of 26, which will turn PvT into the chamber of horrors since shield upgrades are expensive. A 4 armor armored unit would suffer 4+8vs armor x2 (24) which is more than it takes from a full upgraded HotS Marauder (22). And shields will take 32 instead of 26 (26 damage instead of 23 at level 3 shields). Please, don't give out the idea of Marauders having more firepower, they do very well already. BioMineThor/LIberator does relatively well vs Zerg with Ultras. Give better things to Bio, since it has 2 niche units + an empty space for some additional bio unit, and keep mech usable in conjonction to it. IMAO bio needs Ghosts and Reapers as more central units, Bio should not be only about MMM spam. Ghosts should be like some kind of Sentry to the Protoss army; a unit you want in low numbers since they are costly but with good abilities but having strategical uses in almost every phase of the game. They could try reducing Ghost's cost to 100/100, keeping snipe, adjusting EMP to 100 energy... What they have to do is to study closely if Ultras really need that much armor after the first Marauder nerf, and test it with HotS values, then +3 upgrade and then +4, and compare: Balance testing. Ultras have been buffed various times since the begginings of SC2, can we please study the unit with more attention to things like speed, HP regen, additional functions.... (for example, health burrow regen like Roaches or bonus speed with HP under 50%)? I think that DK's Team always fail at studying subtle details, since they want the game to be very obvious in Rock > Scissors > Paper manner. | ||
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cortesmaltose
France8 Posts
Let's hope Blizzard let us test this novel design of the ultralisk... I am really not fond of the new ghost spell so far. | ||
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