EPTTLO's thoughts: The LotV ultralisk - Page 3
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oneill12
Romania1222 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
On June 24 2015 12:49 Wildmoon wrote: One thing is smaller Ultralisk look aesthetically very silly lol. I think I saw it from Starbow or somewhere. BW too. Seriously I know a lot of people think a smaller ultra doesn't "feels right" but ultras where smaller in BW and they where amazing there, SC2 ultra was made big and bulky, and also shit. I it feels even more silly that pretty much everything can kite ultra, I'm sure many users here have know about the "ultras into losing" strat, everytime a player makes ultras they lose (this is of course a joke, but shows the perception players have toward the unit). Not only smaller,faster, lower damage point ultras are more fun to use, more microable, and better from a design perspective, I think they fit the zerg-y feel zerg units should have. Also seeing ling/ultra do massive surrounds in BW was pretty amazing, it would be something cool to have, instead of these clunky units that are simply kitted for miles before dying. | ||
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capu
Finland224 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 24 2015 11:17 pure.Wasted wrote: Sure, when you strip that sentence of all context like that, it sounds tautological. But that's why TLO explains, earlier in the very paragraph that sentence comes from, what he means by bad play: "There's not any smart decisions to be made, it's just getting a ghost in time or not. It's incredibly frustrating and anti-fun having to deal with an almost indestructible unit because you missed your window." It's up to us (well, Blizzard) to decide what is and is not a bad play in the context of SC2. Do you want "didn't get Ghosts in time" to be considered a bad play? Does that sound like an interesting enough challenge to pose to professional players, that is worth both the time they took to train their skills, and the time we took investing in the match leading up to a hard-counter bulldozing? Do you want a 20 minute long back-and-forth ZvT to be decided by a Zerg successfully hiding an Ultralisk Cavern in a corner of the map and winning because the Terran didn't get Ghosts and thus can do absolutely nothing, even if it's Maru playing against a Woodleague Zerg in the Ro128 qualifiers for Red Bull My Backyard? Good play is pressuring your opponent so much that he can't get the tech needed in time, let alone hide it. Let's assume a little late-game TvZ scenario here. You fight vs a Zerg with your midgame armies. "Forgetting something" just shouldn't happen in Starcraft 2, and you should be punished for it. Ghosts are obviously in the back of your mind. So let's assume you didn't forgot about ghosts. If you couldn't find a safe window where you can invest in the needed tech in time, you didn't play bad, it's just that your opponent played well enough that you didn't have the necessary extra resources to invest. About "smart decisions", I think it's pretty clear at this point that there won't be much "smart" things going on in the game. Researching zergling speed isn't smart, getting stim isn't smart, so yeah, building an ultralisk den or getting ghosts isn't smart either, but I don't know what kind of things would be smart, in the end. You just do what is needed to win, smart or not. Edit: I'm exaggerating a bit, mind you, I liked TLO's post overall, I just hate reading that line over and over again. It doesn't sound smart, and it's not smart. But I agree that the ghost-ultralisk interaction may not be the smartest things in SC2 to date, even among all the dumb things in the game ;D | ||
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KillerInstinctHood
3 Posts
The first two lines of TLO's post especially reeks of arrogance and the kind of dunning kruger sense of entitlement which will only serve to distance any professional game designer from looking at the feedback on this site. The only pro opinions I take seriously at this moment are probably QXC and gretorp, mainly because they can both be so anally statistically obsessive and purely logical. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On June 24 2015 14:52 KillerInstinctHood wrote: I love how a lot of comments here disagree with TLO's assessment and provide good reasons for doing so instead of simply jumping on the bandwagon of the latest criticism and alternate suggestion randomly pulled out of a hat. Well, it wasn't written in 58 paragraphs over 7 chapters, so why would the TL community embrace it?  get the TL writing team on it, and everyone will shout for the 2/3 ultra in no time, don't worry. | ||
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Xylaire
Norway24 Posts
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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playnice
Malaysia302 Posts
As for the Ghost, just a random thought. How about instead the drone, give them a 100 or 125 energy blinding grenade that can temporarily disable a detector. Cause you know, we haven't seen enough Nukes since I switched to Zerg. Giving Optic Flare to Ghosts? | ||
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Corgi
United States408 Posts
Ghosts need not be a hard counter to anything. Or in this case, a requirement for bio. Ghosts should have utility that lets them come in and change the tide against P with EMP or Z with something just as viable. Armor reduction is playing with fire. It basically says to Blizz game designers: Give units more armor vs Terran because they have armor reduction. That's a joke. What SC2 needs is a huge revamp of many ignored units like Ultralisk and bring a balance to the damage/armor system where you have less "hard counters" and its based more about compositions, positioning, and engagements. Ultralisks should be able to crush troops but they should also be vulnerable when 100 units fire at them at the same time. That's why zergs have spells like dark swarm to give them cover. So why are ghosts getting armor reduction for a situation created by making Ultras a counter to bio. Why are they a counter in the first place? Why can't they just be a massive unit that can tank for the zerg army once it gets below a % hp? Why is Blizzard so limited in the possibilities they could go with? Game design is not easy. But its also not impossible. Or is Blizzard's team just not good enough anymore to balance a game like this to today's audience who gives a damn? All I can say for sure is that if SC2 came out this year I'd bet 100% it would be free to play and look completely different. | ||
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On June 24 2015 13:14 Lexender wrote: BW too. Seriously I know a lot of people think a smaller ultra doesn't "feels right" but ultras where smaller in BW and they where amazing there, SC2 ultra was made big and bulky, and also shit. I it feels even more silly that pretty much everything can kite ultra, I'm sure many users here have know about the "ultras into losing" strat, everytime a player makes ultras they lose (this is of course a joke, but shows the perception players have toward the unit). Not only smaller,faster, lower damage point ultras are more fun to use, more microable, and better from a design perspective, I think they fit the zerg-y feel zerg units should have. Also seeing ling/ultra do massive surrounds in BW was pretty amazing, it would be something cool to have, instead of these clunky units that are simply kitted for miles before dying. Well M&M could kite anything that could not charge. BW Ultralisk didn't feel as small as in Starbow. It may be because of BW Ultra was made to be that small in the first place not scaled down like Starbow. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
None of this is fixed with the + armor, the only thing it fixes is making Ultralisks insanely A move friendly vs. bio and designing (pretty poorly mind you) an ability that is obviously tailor freaking made against said OP Ultralisk is...well I don't even know what that is actually. "Hey guys, instead of a change that would help the Ultralisk position itself properly, let's just make it so unkillable that it eliminates a style of play from Terran, but on that very same note, instead of buffing the Ghost with a meaningful and strategic ability, let's just give it an ability that directly fights against the new unkillable Ultralisk!" I know that sounded like total nonsense, but that's all I've got on interpretation on the whole Ultra/Ghost/Drone interaction. | ||
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Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
On June 24 2015 16:47 Cascade wrote: Actually, the ghost is like the hots corruptor. I remember blizzards themselves said that the corruptor concept was boring in zvp, because you absolutely had to build it vs colossus, but it was otherwise useless. Which clearly isn't a very exciting unit interaction. And it is clearly the same thing for ghost and ultra now. at least you can morph corrupors into something useful if you ge the time/ressources. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Gamespot interview with dustin browder during hots beta I never thought I'd quote dustin browder for wisdom, but: If we study the game, for example, you would say that the corruptor is lame. Don't get us wrong; they're useful. If there are a lot of colossi, you need corruptors. If there are dark templars, you need overseers. They have a battle function for a situation, but what new battle strategies and tactics do they add in the game? Compare the two to the mutalisks; a player can raid, harass. They can get board control; they can decimate opponents without antiair. Party, right? Having those guys around changes the match. Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story. Isn't it a bit like that with ghost and Ultra? If zerg stops building ultras and goes back to 3-3 ling-bling muta, then what will all the ghosts do? EMP infestors? nuke? snipe banes/mutas? What do you think? Is there a use for the ghost without ultras? Will there ever be a reason to build ghost if not to counter ultras? | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On June 24 2015 17:09 Cascade wrote: Ah, found the link: Gamespot interview with dustin browder during hots beta I never thought I'd quote dustin browder for wisdom, but: Isn't it a bit like that with ghost and Ultra? If zerg stops building ultras and goes back to 3-3 ling-bling muta, then what will all the ghosts do? EMP infestors? nuke? snipe banes/mutas? What do you think? Is there a use for the ghost without ultras? Will there ever be a reason to build ghost if not to counter ultras? Ghosts can be relatively effective vs casters, and also vs hydras/mutas in small numbers (rare situations, but it is). To give ghosts a role, you need to reduce costs, give them +1 range upgrade, and reintroduce snipe instead of the damn drone, or just move EMP to the Raven and give Ghosts the damn drone. However ThorBioMine(+Cyclone/Liberator) does it very well vs Zerg + Ultras, it's just about time they realize them and merge Mech Weapons upgrade, or make them cheaper with armor at higher cost, like Zerg ground. | ||
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