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On May 12 2015 05:13 Nirel wrote:
Isn't there a danger that if they start putting a timer on the game, people in certain situations will start playing for the clock, thus defeating its purpose in the first place?
Of course. I mean, given how the game works, some race will just get more XP with a standard playstyle as another. Like Zerg just mines more and produces more, so they get more XP. Or Terran is just more costefficient, hence they get more XP. Or Protoss can trade a lot of energy for XP. Something along those lines will be figured out in a fleshed out game, and the race that has the advantage in the XP of a particular matchup will eventually just start playing to not give the opponent any favorable engagements if it gets towards that point in the game.
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On May 12 2015 04:56 Shinespark wrote:
Serious question: is SC2 still even in the top 15 most watched esports right now?
I don't know, but I don't think we should care about that anymore. Blizzard should try to make it a good competitive game, but it's pretty clear that its future as an "eSports" has been forfeit since a long time ago.
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On May 12 2015 04:56 Liquid`Snute wrote:I had one idea recently for recall. 1. Remove Recall as we know it from the MSC 2. Put a SMALL radius "Mini Recall" as a 25 energy ability on the Nexus. This way, it will strategically compete with Chrono Boost. For extra versatility: 3. allow Protoss to perform mini recall to any pylon power field somehow, not only to nexi. Great defensively, offensively, and limited by Nexus energy. The more nexi, the more opportunities. Obviously recalling a bunch of units offensively is still dangerous if they're stunned/vulnerable  i think this would make for a better strategy game rather than essentially designing the entire race around the mothership core 
Starbow has that. The recall is on the nexus and it has a limit of 5 units. I didn't it that much until they added a longer delay on it. It made reaver and storm drops too low risk imo. I like more it now.
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On May 12 2015 03:39 Matt` wrote:
i cant even bring myself to play this game until they do something about the 12 worker start
I like that you arent happy. It brings up warm feelings.
On May 12 2015 05:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 04:56 Shinespark wrote:
Serious question: is SC2 still even in the top 15 most watched esports right now? I don't know, but I don't think we should care about that anymore. Blizzard should try to make it a good competitive game, but it's pretty clear that its future as an "eSports" has been forfeit since a long time ago.
Yes, thats why they are pumping Millions into the game.
You guys are 100% MMO-Champion. Even asking if Starcraft 2 is even Top 15 is quite mental.
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On May 12 2015 04:58 Elendur wrote:
Rather than simply having a timer expire in tournament play, and XP counted, has Blizzard considered something potentially more exciting such as first to control 3 out of 5 watchtowers spawning on the map at the 25 minute mark as the victory trigger? That would seem much more exciting to me than to watch games end with some turtling when ahead in XP?
Unfortunately, that could still end up being a bit of a stalemate, especially if neither player feels confident that they can take the 5th tower if they each hold 2. Yes, it would be more exciting. But they're really looking for a hard limit, and that would not necessarily be provided by a space control oriented win condition.
A bit disappointed that the mobility of Terran Mech does not seem to be addressed. I don't see how a single new starport unit will do much for Mech, given the current state of that play style.
The new unit, as far as I remember their statements on it, is not actually intended to address the low mobility of mech. It's more to address some specific holes in mech, such as their issues dealing with Mutas, except when they get some great Thor shots off and just obliterate 60 supply of Mutas in one volley. It's a less binary and hopefully more interesting unit interaction than the current Thor vs Mutalisk relationship. I suspect that it's also intended to be fast enough to chase down unupgraded Warp Prisms. The immobile form that deal single-target damage may be intended to help pick off Zealots that close in on Siege Tanks and approaching Immortals. Keep in mind that high single-target damage is crazy good against Immortals now, if they don't time their barriers correctly. In TvT, it will be better at chasing down Banshees than Vikings are, thus reducing Banshee efficacy in TvT (which is pretty frustrating to play against, imho) until the lategame speed upgrade. In TvZ bio, it may be used in immobile form to help tear down Ultralisks. I thought Widow Mines were already fairly effective in that, but I guess now you'll be able to save your WM shots for big clumps of massed Banelings. It remains to be seen, based on exactly what the numbers are.
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On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
>Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises:
1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad
2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
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Best patch so far, by far. Finally, touching Zealots and other "Core" things that need some adjustements.
New units and so can't solve every issue, we need additional rebalances.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
The second thing we want to address also relates to time. As you likely know, the StarCraft II development team is currently working on an automated tournament feature. Just as it was in Warcraft 3 automated tournaments, we can’t have two people that play for hours drag out a result for everyone else in the same automated tournament. The solution that we are currently testing for this dilemma is to end every automated tournament game at the 30 min mark (~42 min or so in HoTS time), at which point the winner is determined by whichever player earned more XP in that game.
NO
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On May 12 2015 05:33 showBanquo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
>Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is. That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises: 1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad 2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
And how is that different for the other races? How often do you see a zerg attacking you before 10mins in HotS? How often do you see a Terran moving out before medivacs?
It's part of the game, or rather most of the RTS genre, that if you commit to army before economy, you are allin because you can't replace your stuff and move forward in tech/upgrade/base progression if it dies, because you never built up the economy for it.
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I don't know about the effect of every change they implement for the beta players to test, but it sounds overall very promising.
If I see a theme, it is to flesh out unit roles a bit more. For example, the small Zealot movement speed increase with the leg upgrade seems negligible, but should make it easier to use the Zealots as 'meat shield'.
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On May 12 2015 04:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
The recall change is adding another 2 continues to a protoss player.
Made a mistake? just recall, 3 continues left try again.
Over-committed on static defense? let's just salvage and get most of the money back.
Lacks game sense? Just build a sensor tower
Didn't scout an area with a unit? Just scan instantly for instant reveal
Forgot to free up supply? Bring down a depot
Forgot to spend energy of OC? Just save them up for the gold minerals while Z / P suffer late upgrades / worker production economy
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On May 12 2015 05:09 Foxxan wrote:Since blizzard rly love actionpacked games why dont they introduce a teleport on a spellcaster instead? A fast spellcaster, blizzard would love it iam sure Show nested quote +Can enter a stationary-mode where it changes to attack vs ground. This attack targets an area where any units within that area receive high single-target damage. This sounds cool.
Meh.... Instead of making viking transformation useful, they just add another instead?
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On May 12 2015 04:14 Foxxan wrote:
The zealot movementspeed buff is funny. I have no idea why they dont change existing units NOW instead of LATER. Maybe this speedbuff is what they mean with existing changes? Then its depressing for me.
Good thing i always care for the editor tho
I think Blizzard is already trying to consolidate and making changes only in response to balance concerns and for potential issues with the new units. They're not going to redesign protoss and I would bet my life DH is not going to be publically tested.
I'm not sure why they even bothered with the lengthy beta, because it doesn't really seem like they're planning to make use of the extra time available. I suppose they wanted to test the economy changes a bit more just to be sure it wouldn't break the game and that's why they started early?
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On May 12 2015 05:50 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 04:14 Foxxan wrote:
The zealot movementspeed buff is funny. I have no idea why they dont change existing units NOW instead of LATER. Maybe this speedbuff is what they mean with existing changes? Then its depressing for me.
Good thing i always care for the editor tho I think Blizzard is already trying to consolidate and making changes only in response to balance concerns and for potential issues with the new units. They're not going to redesign protoss and I would bet my life DH is not going to be publically tested. I'm not sure why they even bothered with the lengthy beta, because it doesn't really seem like they're planning to make use of the extra time available. I suppose they wanted to test the economy changes a bit more just to be sure it wouldn't break the game and that's why they started early?
Do we even know that the beta is going to be longer than usual? How long was the beta last time? Like 6-8months? Who is to say that this isn't their concept of a long beta anyways. Maybe they will push it out at christmas.
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Having a time limit will only work as a turtle incentive for players who have a small advantage. George Saint-Pierre, welcome to e-sports.
P.S.: faster zealots sound cool! Want to see that!
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What Protoss needs is a Reaver instead of the Adept and Colossus. Having a mobile-immobile axis of choice for protoss would greatly improve the dynamics of the game. Also, the Widow Mine needs to stop being a hardcounter to Carriers and Chargelots. Literally all the bad dynamics that involve PvT and PvZ arise because the Colossus is such a powerful and mobile unit that begs for accessible hard counters. Disruptor is just too gimmicky to be a good substitute for the other two aoe's. It doesn't feel very rewarding as it simply feels like a win button if the opponents skills is below a certain threshold.
EDIT: Also, I don't know why they don't just make an armored slow-move-attacking high burst valkyrie that is capable of soft countering phoenix and mutalisks with a speed buff in the tech lab? Doesn't need another transformer.
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I love the changes, especially the zealot speed.
I agree that stacking stasis was pretty stupid but I don't think this is the best way to address it. It could be unstackable, and after units are released they could have a small (3 seconds-ish?) cooldown where they weren't vulnerable to another one. The manual detenation rewarded vigilent play and I don't like that it's gone.
Lurkers were incredibly hard to engage but I like that they're so formidable. The damage change isn't going to affect protoss very much. We want carriers eventually, regardless of composition, lurkers just provide an incentive to start tech switching earlier. I do wonder how it will play out with bio, though.
The recall change isn't my favorite but it's a decent fit assuming they're not going to rework the protoss early game from the ground up.
I'm struggling to get my head around the fact that some people are arguing against it as if protoss mobility and retreat options are on par with the other races. Retreating is too expensive and trading is too ineffecient. Maybe the adept changes that, but for the time being I'm ok with it.
Might just be the people I play but I do think bio might be a little lackluster in tvp right now. Then again walling your natural against adepts seems pretty much necessary unless you open mech and maybe that just needs to be popularized. Better players probably have commentary on that.
I'm actually really enjoying lotv protoss, warpgate notwithstanding. It feels a lot more robust and aggressive than it ever has to me. The economy is the only thing really bothering me, I feel like removing worker pairing is kind of an obvious step when you already have to "pre-expand" to avoid starvation.
The disruptor is gambly, especially against zerg. It feels like you almost never get your value out of it and at times I think building colossi is better just to have reliable damage.
It fucking rocks vs bio though, so many terran tears were drank this weekend.
Edit: spelling
And on PvT, I think the cyclone got the wrong nerf. It's pretty easy to pressure the front with adepts and backstab with disruptor drops and vikings don't seem to come out fast enough to cut the mustard. Even if its AA was like 4 range with a range upgrade later on (I like that it's so late that protoss can still push out carriers without comitting suicide) it seems to me that would help shoo off warp prisms without just being a hard counter. And maybe a health or damage reduction on top of that. Then again, opening mech entirely solves the adept problem. Maybe there are some cool bio mech openings that we haven't seen yet. I dunno, kind of rambling now.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote:
People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit)
Stalkers (Blink imba etc)
Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now)
Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it)
DTs (no explanation needed).
Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP)
Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!)
Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill)
Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks)
Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range)
Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.)
Oracles (coinflippy bullshit)
Void Rays (OP)
Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???)
Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
Think about it......
I'm more inclined to think what would REALLY piss off those salty, salty Terrans and Zergs?
Personally I think we'd see the real tears flow with some faster A-move skill-less Zealots and dumb, OP, A-move stupid Immortal changes, as well as some changes to Protoss's garbage EZ mode no thought Warpgate mechanic. ;P
Really though, I think Snute's idea is great, what do they NEVER complain about? Thats right! The Nexus... let's change that!
The Protoss army being dictated by the Mothership Core would kind of suck though, I've never really been fond of the MSC, and I'd rather have it's place taken by the Nexus in some form.
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Yo! Brood Lord buff hype!
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EPT
