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LotV Balance Update Preview - May 11 - Page 3

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
320 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 15 16 17 Next All
Liquid`Ret
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Netherlands4511 Posts
May 11 2015 19:23 GMT
#41
I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.

The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.
Team Liquid
SoleSteeler
Profile Joined April 2003
Canada5417 Posts
May 11 2015 19:24 GMT
#42
On May 12 2015 04:04 Aquila- wrote:
Completely random changes instead of changing things that really need it at the moment? Like mass adept with like 6 gates and warpprism is literally unstoppable as Terran?


I've been away for about 10 days or so. Is this a legit strat now? 10 days ago adepts seemed gimmicky/weak. Guess I should start watching some streams again...
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
May 11 2015 19:26 GMT
#43
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.

The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.

Agree 100%. Instand, downside-free teleportation should not be an RTS mechanic, but it's all Protoss is about and it just doesn't work no matter how much Blizzard tries to pretend it does. Recall + warp gates is just bad mechanics, and now they've made it even better.
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 19:34:08
May 11 2015 19:31 GMT
#44
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.

The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.


Well put! I think i's more than 4 though, with the energy regeneration I'd say it's close to infinite recalls as long as they use them offensively. They can walk over the map, get surrounded, recall. By the time they repeated that mistake 3 more times, enough energy for 2 or 3 more recalls should be ready. Defensively, when recalling from Nexus to Nexus it's "only" 4 though.

Town Portal didn't cost 350 gold in wc3 for no reason, it's fucking OP. You can run around, snipe bases and port out, no risk. The balance doesn't even matter right now since it's beta, but just the design decision is mind boggling. You can't make a mistake as Protoss, you don't need units in position or scout the opponents army movement and you don't need to worry about being careful when getting aggressive. Nothing can happen.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Shinespark
Profile Joined June 2011
Chile843 Posts
May 11 2015 19:35 GMT
#45
50 energy for recall means that there's practically no consequence or punishment for protoss screwing up their engagement, other than losing a few units that get killed before recall is cast, or are left behind. So, no, this is a horrible change.
"I, for one, welcome our new Korean overlords."
TurboMaN
Profile Joined October 2005
Germany925 Posts
May 11 2015 19:38 GMT
#46
Oh my the direction in which LotV is going now is very strange. I hope for the best, that they can somehow rescue this "new" style.
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
May 11 2015 19:39 GMT
#47
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.

The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.


Let's just remove the MSC core from the game and buff Protoss Gateway units.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
May 11 2015 19:39 GMT
#48
blizz please stop making units faster.
vibeo gane,
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 11 2015 19:40 GMT
#49
On May 12 2015 04:31 Musicus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.

The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.


Well put! I think i's more than 4 though, with the energy regeneration I'd say it's close to infinite recalls as long as they use them offensively. They can walk over the map, get surrounded, recall. By the time they repeated that mistake 3 more times, enough energy for 2 or 3 more recalls should be ready. Defensively, when recalling from Nexus to Nexus it's "only" 4 though.

Town Portal didn't cost 350 gold in wc3 for no reason, it's fucking OP. You can run around, snipe bases and port out, no risk. The balance doesn't even matter right now since it's beta, but just the design decision is mind boggling. You can't make a mistake as Protoss, you don't need units in position or scout the opponents army movement and you don't need to worry about being careful when getting aggressive. Nothing can happen.


But you know what will happen? Since attack-->recall-->attack-->recall ad infinum is very obviously going to be overpowered, especially in combination with forcefields, blinks, shadow walks, disruptors, storms and shields making sure you get the better end of the first seconds of a battle before recalling, the only way to balance will be that Protoss never gets to attack before they have a deathball. NEVER. The moment they can start to attack, they snowball. Basically every Protoss unit becomes a locusts with this change. You think you have broken through to them and can finally start doing damage? HAHAHAHAHA, they aren't even there anymore.

I guess Terran can snipe the MsC with Vikings or EMP it.
Bakawanko
Profile Joined May 2015
3 Posts
May 11 2015 19:41 GMT
#50
I think its clear that even in LotV beta the problems with terran and zerg can be fixed with relatively easy number tweaks to the new/existing units. Protoss has been left poorly designed for so long, problems keeps cropping up with every expansion when they try to add new stuff. Adding more to a really bad foundation just wont cut it.

Protoss more than the other races NEED to make gimmicky spell caster units to cover up the glaring design flaws in the race, this shouldnt be the case, but its sad that it is and Blizzard sees nothing wrong with it.
Shinespark
Profile Joined June 2011
Chile843 Posts
May 11 2015 19:42 GMT
#51
If protoss wants to make effective use of their 4 recalls if the change goes through, they need to keep the mothership core with their army, which reduces the speed of the army to that of the core. If Blizz wants to give protoss more mobility, maybe not forcing them to have the core with their army would be a start. Or giving the core a speed boost through an upgrade, that invariably no one will get at first. In any case, templar are also slow as molasses, and colossi are not much faster.

Seems to me that the problem is that important protoss units in general are too slow, and giving the core 4 recalls instead of 2 doesn't fix that, if anything, no protoss will ever dare walk out without their core anymore, making them even slower.
"I, for one, welcome our new Korean overlords."
astray71
Profile Joined February 2012
United States325 Posts
May 11 2015 19:43 GMT
#52
The only change I really like is the zealot speed change because it lets zealots match speedlings. Also, the 12 worker start really needs to change... if the mining rate is going back to the Brood War model (haven't kept up with the current decision), set the worker start at 8 or 9
There is no victory without the blessing of god, and there is no god but Madlife.
magicallypuzzled
Profile Joined June 2011
United States588 Posts
May 11 2015 19:43 GMT
#53
and yet protoss is supposedly weaker than the other races so how is them being more forgiving a bad thing when just about any engagement they make apparently has a higher chance of being a stupid one when compared to terran or zerg?
is depressed
fireforce7
Profile Joined June 2010
United States334 Posts
May 11 2015 19:43 GMT
#54
the mothership core recall change is a bit much...This makes it so that a protoss player can instantly come home multiple times with their full army. There's almost no incentive for a protoss player to leave a couple of units at home because Photon cannons and Overcharge already hit the ground. Adding 50 energy for recall only allows them to deathball even more...
I'm terranfying
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
May 11 2015 19:45 GMT
#55
On May 12 2015 04:42 Shinespark wrote:
If protoss wants to make effective use of their 4 recalls if the change goes through, they need to keep the mothership core with their army, which reduces the speed of the army to that of the core. If Blizz wants to give protoss more mobility, maybe not forcing them to have the core with their army would be a start. Or giving the core a speed boost through an upgrade, that invariably no one will get at first. In any case, templar are also slow as molasses, and colossi are not much faster.

Seems to me that the problem is that important protoss units in general are too slow, and giving the core 4 recalls instead of 2 doesn't fix that, if anything, no protoss will ever dare walk out without their core anymore, making them even slower.


Very good point, increasing the dependency of the protoss army on the MSC is the worst they can do. Strategies will focus around it, once it gets sniped Protoss is fucked.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 11 2015 19:45 GMT
#56
David Kim was probably watching Stats vs Maru on Proleague today and thought:
"Stats has a base on the other side of the biggest map in the mappool that he cannot defend with his whole army while getting dropped at home. This isn't right!"
Jenia6109
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Russian Federation1612 Posts
May 11 2015 19:46 GMT
#57
New economy force you to expand more. If you expand more you need to defence more. So every race need to be mobile and becomes more similar. But it's opposite to the idea of making races more different.
Why not to try new economy model first and then tweaking units towards this model? Or is it final?
INnoVation TY Maru | Classic Stats Dear sOs Zest herO | Rogue Dark soO
PinoKotsBeer
Profile Joined February 2014
Netherlands1385 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 19:47:59
May 11 2015 19:47 GMT
#58
The recall change is adding another 2 continues to a protoss player.
Made a mistake? just recall, 3 continues left try again.
http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
May 11 2015 19:47 GMT
#59
On May 12 2015 04:04 Aquila- wrote:
Completely random changes instead of changing things that really need it at the moment? Like mass adept with like 6 gates and warpprism is literally unstoppable as Terran?


I figured this out and wrecked my friend with it lol. It's fun!
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
May 11 2015 19:48 GMT
#60
Oh so you're not done with patch threads?
LiquipediaWanderer
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