EPTLotV closed beta announced to start on March 31 - Page 40
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Thanks to Reddit sleuths, everyone can try the LotV test maps by following instructions here. Note: This is not a beta key, it is simply access to Vs. AI and a Unit Tester. I have no idea how cool with this Blizzard is or is not, use at your own risk. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On March 21 2015 23:55 JCoto wrote: The statment about SCV pulls is a bit more discussable, since they have a quite decent risk/reward factor when hitting on timings, supported by MULE mechanic (20 SCVs mining = 5 mules mining so hey, losing aorund 15 workers when on 3-4 Orbitals shouldn't be game ending). I honestly think that Ghosts work fairly well, since there is a lot of micro involved in that fights and ability to counter from both sides. EMPs are also very strong vs Protoss. So I wouldn't say that Ghosts don't work. Pros achieve a lot with them, so maybe it is because proper control is hard, but that is common on dedicated spell casters. I mean, let's take for example Maru. Maru has phenomenal army control, possibly the best of all Terrans. He prefers pulling SCVs 3 times in one game to making a ghost transition. I also distinctly remember Hurricane vs INnoVation from Proleague, after a certain point INno just stopped making ghosts and made marauders instead. So something about the ghost is wrong, whether it's cost/supply efficiency or the control being too difficult or whatever. If you can reach a point where the much cheaper marauder does better against storms/HTs than your ghosts, something about the ghost doesn't really work that well. On March 21 2015 23:59 Xequecal wrote: How does Protoss beat mass-Battlecruiser without the Tempest shooting up? Void Rays die in 1 yamato shot and nothing else in the Protoss arsenal is even remotely cost effective. I guess option A is to prevent that at all costs, while option B probably involves massing HTs, archons, voidrays and whatever else you can afford <.< I think this will largely depend on the upcoming PDD change aswell. | ||
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ETisME
12365 Posts
in WoL, it was a big deal when terran did a big stim and medviacs were less massable. bio tank had more moments such as tanks getting destroyed by run bys or sniped by mutas. similar to protoss loses colossus or immortal due to rally/unprotected. We used to have it in TvZ where infestors get caught. It's fun to see these happened because it's a big part of the game. TvX right now is always terran picking off key units and rarely otherwise. The closest we have right now is HT vs Ghost which is extremely difficult but not very spectator friendly ,for TvZ it's probably mines but it is also not that spectator friendly. The only case is probably medivacs but it is extremely rare due to the medivac boost now. They aren't nearly as major (worthy of a zoom by the spectator) as losing a colossus. Thor despite the low numbers and expensive, just do not really have that key element to it as well. It would be also nice to finally have other ways to micro the bio ball, not just "place mine/tank" and split. | ||
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wongfeihung
United States763 Posts
On March 21 2015 23:59 Xequecal wrote: How does Protoss beat mass-Battlecruiser without the Tempest shooting up? Void Rays die in 1 yamato shot and nothing else in the Protoss arsenal is even remotely cost effective. The Tempest has the Disintegration ability and Carriers can launch Interceptors at an area from a long range. Both of these can be used to force an engagement or pick off units from far away. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
Science Vessels would be the gas heavy spellcaster unit bio needs late game. Its speed would have great synergy with the bio ball. I think TvZ and even TvP would play out similar to broodwar bio TvZ. Vultures would allow mech map control, mobility and the ability to push with much lower suppy. Being a spammable mineral unit also helps. Goliaths for anti air obviously. I would have no problems with blizzard sacking the cyclone, and the hellion for these changes. Hellbats could be replaced by an actual firebat. Ghosts and thors could be redesigned (I won't miss thors if they're removed entirely). The cyclone seems to be very similar to both the vulture and goliath. However, I'm not convinced it fills either role as well and the actual vulture and goliath. Even though its better than both it just seems to expensive and really cuts into tank production when I was playing the lotv custom map. Its also stupidly strong. | ||
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On March 22 2015 00:38 wongfeihung wrote: The Tempest has the Disintegration ability and Carriers can launch Interceptors at an area from a long range. Both of these can be used to force an engagement or pick off units from far away. As a Terran, I would say that isn't an argument. He specifically asked how to beat mass-BC. Disintegration's effect can be hugely mitigated by repairing and while the carrier's new ability is nice, it does nothing against mass-BC because BCs shred the interceptors. | ||
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wongfeihung
United States763 Posts
On March 22 2015 00:56 Elentos wrote: As a Terran, I would say that isn't an argument. He specifically asked how to beat mass-BC. Disintegration's effect can be hugely mitigated by repairing and while the carrier's new ability is nice, it does nothing against mass-BC because BCs shred the interceptors. I guess you can throw some Disruptors in there for good measure? There's a ton of theorycrafting that can be brought up to find a solution to this problem. One could even say that Stasis Wards are a possible solution in order to disable portions of the opponent's army. By forcing an engagement, these other factors come into play. I'm not trying to solve it for him and present him with the solution in its entirety, because everyone has a different opinion on what the outcome could be. I'm trying to show him an open door so that he can find what leads to his own solution. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On March 22 2015 01:17 Teoita wrote: Afaik disruptors dont damage air units. Again, it's too early to tell and frankly at beta release im 100% sure that a -lot- of things will be hilariously broken beyond reason. Sure, that's why the beta will take at least half a year, and the balancing will keep going for long after that. I mean, really, a huge part of the beta is going to be simply showing them what changes they better scrap and what other changes might be needed. | ||
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On March 22 2015 00:56 Elentos wrote: As a Terran, I would say that isn't an argument. He specifically asked how to beat mass-BC. Disintegration's effect can be hugely mitigated by repairing and while the carrier's new ability is nice, it does nothing against mass-BC because BCs shred the interceptors. When the fuck do we see mass BC? I really don't think this is a pressing issue... | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On March 22 2015 00:09 Elentos wrote: I mean, let's take for example Maru. Maru has phenomenal army control, possibly the best of all Terrans. He prefers pulling SCVs 3 times in one game to making a ghost transition. I also distinctly remember Hurricane vs INnoVation from Proleague, after a certain point INno just stopped making ghosts and made marauders instead. So something about the ghost is wrong, whether it's cost/supply efficiency or the control being too difficult or whatever. If you can reach a point where the much cheaper marauder does better against storms/HTs than your ghosts, something about the ghost doesn't really work that well. The fact that a someone can pull up his workers up to three times in a suicide fashion and be still in the game is quite irritating, isn't it? Would you do it as a Zerg or as a Protoss? I find that more wrong that the Ghost not being used in that engagements. The problem there (with SCV pulls and MMMV strategies) is that a T1 heavy infantry army with air support is basically trying to beat a fairly superior teched army based around huge AoE damage (which is their natural counter), when with a good racial design, the Terran should have some superior tech included in the army, not only Vikings. With LotV Siegevacs, this will potentially change a lot. However, this situation happens because the balance line is so tight that the infantry can in fact beat their counter, mainly due to marauders. Now talking about the game you described: Ghosts aren't really used because the Protoss commits into Colossi Gateway over HTs. In many engagements, HTs are kept as a defensive measure to defend the pressure most of the time: The protoss is playing defensive and moving to Archon Zealot with Colossi. Mass Marauder is a big counter for Archon Zealot, it cost much less than Ghosts, and they are ball friendly an easy to use, while Ghosts are not. The Marauder DPS, tankiness + slow is possibly more appealing than EMP when facing zealots. In fact, marauders basically softcounter or hardcounter every Gateway unit, and they can pick low colossi with ease while Ghosts not. They are extremely efficient against the protoss army, while replacing them for Ghosts means a huge DPS and tankiness lost. BTW, in this game the Ghost control was far from desireable on a pro level. See for example this game: More of the same thing. But you also see some Ghosts some times, and not many SCVs pulled. If the Protoss hits hard on a timing, they can win; if there are Vikings out, then the war starts. I bet a tenner that if Marauders countered less, we'd see far more Ghosts, specially in TvP, simply because of the need for them. However, Ghosts are still quite tricky to use, specially microing snipes vs HT feedback and because their lack of speed compared to the rest of the bio army. | ||
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On March 22 2015 01:47 ohmylanta1003 wrote: When the fuck do we see mass BC? I really don't think this is a pressing issue... I mean, in WoL Protoss could deal with it via the Archon Toilet, so it wasn't as prevalent (although Mvp still went for the air option at times, no?) and in HotS Protoss could deal with BCs via the tempest. Neither of these counters exist anymore in the current LotV build and BCs will probably get buffed, so who are we to say whether or not BCs will become all the rage in late game TvP? And if that guy is concerned for his ladder points being endangered by mass BC, let him be concerned about it. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On March 22 2015 01:47 ohmylanta1003 wrote: When the fuck do we see mass BC? I really don't think this is a pressing issue... mass BC/Raven + a few ghosts/tanks to zone out HTs is the endgame TvP composition when going mech. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On March 22 2015 01:54 Elentos wrote: I mean, in WoL Protoss could deal with it via the Archon Toilet, so it wasn't as prevalent (although Mvp still went for the air option at times, no?) and in HotS Protoss could deal with BCs via the tempest. Neither of these counters exist anymore in the current LotV build and BCs will probably get buffed, so who are we to say whether or not BCs will become all the rage in late game TvP? And if that guy is concerned for his ladder points being endangered by mass BC, let him be concerned about it. I'm saying this for like the past 3 years and I will say it again. If there is a race that is supposed to have the strongest late-game army, be it air (mass BC's in our case here), or anything else, it should be Terran. Because Terran has the slowest unit production and remax capabilities. I'm not saying there should be something like BL/Infestor for Terran, but concidering the race macro mechanics and production, it really only makes sense. | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
On March 20 2015 22:10 Ramiz1989 wrote: I have a feeling that you guys haven't seen a video or read anything about it. First, Stasis Field is trap-like ability and it has casting time, you can't just fly in with 3 Oracles and freeze whole enemy army. Second, that "trap" can be destroyed before it activates, it is like Mine on the field that activates when you come near and unlike Widow Mine that can unburrow, this will activate even on one Zergling passing by. Third, you can't attack frozen units, they are invulnerable. Stasis from Arbitur was a lot stronger than this. And still it is a really boring and imo stupid way to make the complete opposite of what this game makes so interesting and prevent microing affected units for a 30!! seconds duration. With the last expansion there is the last chance of bringing in some awesome new spells and then i see this, wow.. what a shame. Come on devs, you can do better and i know it. I just don´t see the benefits of this kind of spell, not from the players perspective and even less for spectators. | ||
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On March 22 2015 01:53 JCoto wrote: The fact that a someone can pull up his workers up to three times in a suicide fashion and be still in the game is quite irritating, isn't it? Would you do it as a Zerg or as a Protoss? I find that more wrong that the Ghost not being used in that engagements. A Zerg or Protoss could do it when 100% sure it wins them the game, but they'll never be in a position where it makes sense (except maybe herO vs Maru on Deadwing in GSL), because neither race is in a position where they so desperately want to hit a certain timing. The SCV pull is meant to end the game before storm research is done, neither Toss nor Zerg are that "afraid" of a single tech hitting the battlefield. And there even are SCV pulls that include Ghosts, but no more than 3. But that doesn't make it better, the Ghost is criminally underused, even in the only matchup it would currently serve a purpose in. And part of that has to be the Ghost itself, the other part of that is the fact that SCV pulls are way to strong. But the Disruptor can change the SCV pull landscape, it will allow Protoss to defend them efficiently without storm being done. So then you're forced to pick a Protoss apart the Polt route, or play the long Ghost vs HT game, maybe even culminating in the eventual air transition. But the fact that Ghosts cost so much more than HTs and can be insta-killed by them as soon as they are at 100 energy doesn't help the Ghost at all. On March 22 2015 01:53 JCoto wrote: The problem there (with SCV pulls and MMMV strategies) is that a T1 heavy infantry army with air support is basically trying to beat a fairly superior teched army based around huge AoE damage (which is their natural counter), when with a good racial design, the Terran should have some superior tech included in the army. With LotV Siegevacs, this will potentially change a lot. However, this situation happens because the balance line is so tight that the infantry can in fact beat their counter, Mainly due to marauders. I don't think so, because tanks still suck shit against Protoss, even if they fly, and losing them to blink Stalkers is too expensive. This is more likely to be some sort of cheesy harass tactic akin to the mine drop than anything else, really. On March 22 2015 01:53 JCoto wrote: In fact, marauders basically softcounter or hardcounter every Gateway unit That's a blatant lie, Marauders don't counter Chargelots or Archons, they can only win with kiting and proper micro, that's far from a soft or hardcounter, it's like saying Mutas counter Thors, and even their counter function against Stalkers is not supreme early on, as seen in every successful blink all-in ever. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
A Zerg or Protoss could do it when 100% sure it wins them the game, but they'll never be in a position where it makes sense (except maybe herO vs Maru on Deadwing in GSL), because neither race is in a position where they so desperately want to hit a certain timing. The SCV pull is meant to end the game before storm research is done, neither Toss nor Zerg are that "afraid" of a single tech hitting the battlefield. Yeah during WoL we did 3base timings with probes vs infestor broodlord, right. Oh wait. The reason Terran can pull scvs and the other races cant are mules. | ||
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On March 22 2015 02:22 Teoita wrote: Yeah during WoL we did 3base timings with probes vs infestor broodlord, right. Oh wait. The reason Terran can pull scvs and the other races cant are mules. If it gets shut down well enough, the game's done, MULEs or no MULEs. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 22 2015 02:22 Teoita wrote: Yeah during WoL we did 3base timings with probes vs infestor broodlord, right. Oh wait. The reason Terran can pull scvs and the other races cant are mules. The reason Terran can pull scvs in tvp is that protoss gateway armies without aoe lose every time against bio. Mules are hardly a reason, if you don't win with your scv pull no mule in the world will win you the game | ||
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