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Thanks to Reddit sleuths, everyone can try the LotV test maps by following instructions here. Note: This is not a beta key, it is simply access to Vs. AI and a Unit Tester. I have no idea how cool with this Blizzard is or is not, use at your own risk. |
On March 21 2015 07:22 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:12 KeksX wrote:You're going about this the wrong way. It's not a problem that needed to be fixed, but an opportunity waiting to be used.
If the expansion was about fixing problems, it would be a balance patch. The potential is there in TvT, but I don't see it in matchups 'CannonsNCarriers' brought up. It's the same with the new cattlebruiser ability -- Terran as an afterthought.
Do you remember early WOL when Marine+Tank was really a thing versus Zerg? Medivacs picking up tanks will bring that back. You will have 1-2 that you make off 1 factory solely to help focus fire banes. Also, tanks are pretty much the only response to lurkers.
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On March 21 2015 09:17 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 08:49 Uvantak wrote:On March 21 2015 05:00 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 01:25 Uvantak wrote:I just want to know if the Adepts have splash damage as gameinformer reported, that could allow Toss to take farther third bases and be more independent of high tech splash units. So yeah looking forward to more info on the unit. Or they have yet another unit they can add to their deathball. Seriously Protoss doesn't need more splash. :/On March 21 2015 04:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Not much new stuff for Terran. Hopefully it's not more fun to play the other two races since they're getting new stuff. Are you kidding? Tank pickups in siege are almost the best thing to be added in LotV, the micro potential is huge. They actually do, atm every toss splash unit is a high tech unit, meanwhile in the early to midgame toss does not have a way of dealing with mass cheap units that isn't the force field or a high committal to gateway units which will rapidly lose value as the game drags on. A splash unit that can teleport would allow Toss to be more mobile and active on the map. When massed it would still be problematic tho I agree with you that it would be a strong deathball unit, but a nerf to the collosus coupled with this new unit would be very interesting. Still we need to wait and see, the only confirmation I have gotten from Adepts having splash came from a single source, so it can't really be reliable. As I said it is wait and see. The way it was phrased, Adept's don't do splash. But might hit multiple units. Kindda like mutas maybe ?
Yes, in the way the source says, i would expect it to be a bounce/splash like mutas only weaker (maybe 1 bounce instead of 2?) because the unit is from gateway.
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On March 21 2015 07:56 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:30 ohmylanta1003 wrote:I'm just curious: have you watched any TvT matches lately? Because the current meta is bio + tank. Almost every game. We weren't talking about TvT.
If you look back, you can actually see that you mentioned TvT. And since you never specified what matchup we were talking about, I chose a match where tanks are prevalent. In LOTV, I guarentee we will still be seeing bio + tank TvTs and we will be seeing medivacs picking up sieged tanks.
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On March 21 2015 09:17 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:22 Gnosis wrote:On March 21 2015 07:12 KeksX wrote:You're going about this the wrong way. It's not a problem that needed to be fixed, but an opportunity waiting to be used.
If the expansion was about fixing problems, it would be a balance patch. The potential is there in TvT, but I don't see it in matchups 'CannonsNCarriers' brought up. It's the same with the new cattlebruiser ability -- Terran as an afterthought. Do you remember early WOL when Marine+Tank was really a thing versus Zerg? Medivacs picking up tanks will bring that back. You will have 1-2 that you make off 1 factory solely to help focus fire banes. Also, tanks are pretty much the only response to lurkers.
I thought that at first too - I gave up on bio v Zerg because it only takes a second or two of inattention to have everything die to banelings. My APM was not up to the job of stimming and splitting and target firing banelings (he says as Nerd Alert's Banelings started playing on his Chromecast - what a coincidence - Void Rays will be next on the playlist then Linkin Park).
Will it be Marine/Tank and Viking to counter the Viper's abduct and blinding cloud? Excited for the expansion.
BTW - I think the current balance is really good even if unit choices are limited. A bunch of Terran, Protoss and Zerg wins of late. I must admit the Zerg wins are due to Life though.
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On March 21 2015 09:17 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:22 Gnosis wrote:On March 21 2015 07:12 KeksX wrote:You're going about this the wrong way. It's not a problem that needed to be fixed, but an opportunity waiting to be used.
If the expansion was about fixing problems, it would be a balance patch. The potential is there in TvT, but I don't see it in matchups 'CannonsNCarriers' brought up. It's the same with the new cattlebruiser ability -- Terran as an afterthought. Do you remember early WOL when Marine+Tank was really a thing versus Zerg? Medivacs picking up tanks will bring that back. You will have 1-2 that you make off 1 factory solely to help focus fire banes. Also, tanks are pretty much the only response to lurkers.
I don't think so, current mutas are too good to allow for tank play outside of mech tbh. If they don't get the tank or the medivac with the tank, that's a huge error. Now, I'm all for bio/tank, I think it's pretty awesome, but with the way mut-muts work, you're better off without the supply intensive tanks. Also widow mines are better than tanks could ever be if they get good hits.
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On March 21 2015 05:00 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 01:25 Uvantak wrote:I just want to know if the Adepts have splash damage as gameinformer reported, that could allow Toss to take farther third bases and be more independent of high tech splash units. So yeah looking forward to more info on the unit. Or they have yet another unit they can add to their deathball. Seriously Protoss doesn't need more splash. :/ Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Not much new stuff for Terran. Hopefully it's not more fun to play the other two races since they're getting new stuff. Are you kidding? Tank pickups in siege are almost the best thing to be added in LotV, the micro potential is huge.
Well that's just one change, which potentially offers less fun than having a bunch of changes in other races.
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On March 21 2015 10:29 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 05:00 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 01:25 Uvantak wrote:I just want to know if the Adepts have splash damage as gameinformer reported, that could allow Toss to take farther third bases and be more independent of high tech splash units. So yeah looking forward to more info on the unit. Or they have yet another unit they can add to their deathball. Seriously Protoss doesn't need more splash. :/ On March 21 2015 04:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Not much new stuff for Terran. Hopefully it's not more fun to play the other two races since they're getting new stuff. Are you kidding? Tank pickups in siege are almost the best thing to be added in LotV, the micro potential is huge. Well that's just one change, which potentially offers less fun than having a bunch of changes in other races.
Things are going to change A LOT. At Blizzcon everyone was saying how Terran got the most fun new toys and Protoss got the least, now it seems to be the other way around.
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The disruptor does friendly fire to non-disruptor units (so it will kill your zealots stalkrrs etc.). So its not really part of the deathball...!
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On March 21 2015 11:04 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 10:29 Doodsmack wrote:On March 21 2015 05:00 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 01:25 Uvantak wrote:I just want to know if the Adepts have splash damage as gameinformer reported, that could allow Toss to take farther third bases and be more independent of high tech splash units. So yeah looking forward to more info on the unit. Or they have yet another unit they can add to their deathball. Seriously Protoss doesn't need more splash. :/ On March 21 2015 04:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Not much new stuff for Terran. Hopefully it's not more fun to play the other two races since they're getting new stuff. Are you kidding? Tank pickups in siege are almost the best thing to be added in LotV, the micro potential is huge. Well that's just one change, which potentially offers less fun than having a bunch of changes in other races. Things are going to change A LOT. At Blizzcon everyone was saying how Terran got the most fun new toys and Protoss got the least, now it seems to be the other way around.
+1 Protoss unit and -1 Terrain unit will obviously do that. I'm more excited about big changes during beta. Medivac boost, muta regen, and killer Oracles were all big changes from the HotS beta that significantly changed the game.
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The Herc was so much cooler than the cyclone... Why not make it a melee unit? Have it specifically deal with charge lots plus allow it to retreat by grabbing allied units. Plus no knock back because that looked ridiculous.
From what I saw at the Blizzcon games. The cyclone was really boring.
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All the people already complaining about the Adept having chain damage, do you know that this type of damage becomes pure shit in the lategame whith armor upgrades¿ Just see mutas vs 3/3 Marines.
The adept is probably concieved as an early/midgame unit to keep up and trade with cheap units (MMM / lingroach) so in the lategame they are not going to be that strong at all.
It's fun to see the Terran complain about Toss having a good infantry unit when in fact Terrans have the best infantry units (by far) in the game and a combined healer/dropship.
I'd like to see my "Deathball" being as simple, cheap and and effective as a mass T1 army.
However, it is true that Terran suffers from transitioning and using mixed styles, because they don't have the good synergy that the Protoss ball has.
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On March 21 2015 19:16 JCoto wrote:
All the people already complaining about the Adept having chain damage, do you know that this type of damage becomes pure shit in the lategame whith armor upgrades¿ Just see mutas vs 3/3 Marines.
The adept is probably concieved as an early/midgame unit to keep up and trade with cheap units (MMM / lingroach) so in the lategame they are not going to be that strong at all.
It's fun to see the Terran complain about Toss having a good infantry unit when in fact Terrans have the best infantry units (by far) in the game and a combined healer/dropship.
I'd like to see my "Deathball" being as simple, cheap and and effective as a mass T1 army.
I wish I had collossi and only would need to amove my army without having to worry about micro. Just in general, having a good lategame would be nice.
To compare the races one by one is shitty logic.
Now on a higher educated discussion level:
An early splash damage unit for Protoss could be really beneficial, the only problem I have with the adept is its ability which just makes it a blink stalker basically. Does this unit really need an ability just to be cool? Cant we just have a normal fighting unit again? Most BW units were simple attacking units without requiring gimmicks to make them good and every single one of them was interesting of their own.
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On March 21 2015 19:16 JCoto wrote:
It's fun to see the Terran complain about Toss having a good infantry unit when in fact Terrans have the best infantry units (by far) in the game and a combined healer/dropship.
Terran also has the shittiest late game by far, that has to be compensated somewhere. And you're basically saying stalkers, zealots, sentries, HTs and DTs aren't good units, which is BS.
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New unit for Terran idea: a fast flying unit please.
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On March 21 2015 20:56 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 19:16 JCoto wrote:
It's fun to see the Terran complain about Toss having a good infantry unit when in fact Terrans have the best infantry units (by far) in the game and a combined healer/dropship.
Terran also has the shittiest late game by far, that has to be compensated somewhere. And you're basically saying stalkers, zealots, sentries, HTs and DTs aren't good units, which is BS.
That's not really true, it's just bio that cannot transition very well in Terrans strongest compositions. Or at least trying to do so is worse than just trying to win earlier.
Protoss getting some earlier low tier splash could be very good for the game and could justify getting rid of/severely nerfing/greatly redesigning crap like Photon Overcharge and Forcefield.
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On March 21 2015 20:56 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 19:16 JCoto wrote:
It's fun to see the Terran complain about Toss having a good infantry unit when in fact Terrans have the best infantry units (by far) in the game and a combined healer/dropship.
Terran also has the shittiest late game by far, that has to be compensated somewhere. And you're basically saying stalkers, zealots, sentries, HTs and DTs aren't good units, which is BS.
I'm trying hard to find anything that reliably beats Viking/Raven/ + Mech. Most of the time it's just "don't let Terran get there".
I'm pretty sure that Terran has the strongest lategame, question is just how can Terran get there. "Meching it happen" certainly helped. (Damn I'm still bitter about this. Why did people want to buff Mech so hard? It's the same as SH games.)
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On March 21 2015 22:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 20:56 Elentos wrote:On March 21 2015 19:16 JCoto wrote:
It's fun to see the Terran complain about Toss having a good infantry unit when in fact Terrans have the best infantry units (by far) in the game and a combined healer/dropship.
Terran also has the shittiest late game by far, that has to be compensated somewhere. And you're basically saying stalkers, zealots, sentries, HTs and DTs aren't good units, which is BS. That's not really true, it's just bio that cannot transition very well in Terrans strongest compositions. Or at least trying to do so is worse than just trying to win earlier. Protoss getting some earlier low tier splash could be very good for the game and could justify getting rid of/severely nerfing/greatly redesigning crap like Photon Overcharge and Forcefield.
What would you consider Terran's strongest compositions in late game? BC/raven/viking? That's still easily worse than late game Zerg and Protoss if properly controlled. And bio, as you said, is very difficult to transition out of to begin with. And that's why Terran needs strong infantry, because getting away from it is almost impossible.
That's why, what I want for Terrans with LotV, is a unit that helps a bio player in the late game. I'd be fine if they did something to the ghost to make that work, whatever. But when you see that most Terrans opt to SCV pull rather than enter the ghost-HT wars, you know something's not going well past a certain point in the game.
I mean, the cyclone is a step to making mech more viable against Protoss, but I'm not sure that's gonna work either.
On March 21 2015 22:34 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 20:56 Elentos wrote:On March 21 2015 19:16 JCoto wrote:
It's fun to see the Terran complain about Toss having a good infantry unit when in fact Terrans have the best infantry units (by far) in the game and a combined healer/dropship.
Terran also has the shittiest late game by far, that has to be compensated somewhere. And you're basically saying stalkers, zealots, sentries, HTs and DTs aren't good units, which is BS. I'm trying hard to find anything that reliably beats Viking/Raven/ + Mech. Most of the time it's just "don't let Terran get there". I'm pretty sure that Terran has the strongest lategame, question is just how can Terran get there. "Meching it happen" certainly helped. (Damn I'm still bitter about this. Why did people want to buff Mech so hard? It's the same as SH games.)
Sky Terran is unbelievably weak to templars on the Protoss front, and it struggles with infestors. It's arguably harder for Zerg, but it's not going to be that big of a deal anymore if the new viper ability gets in. And maybe I should have been clearer, a player that starts with playing bio has the weakest possible late game, because Terran tech switches are very difficult.
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Terran doesn't even need to tech switch much against zerg late game.
the nature of zerg tech tree is that it gets much more immobile and it gets harder to defend against all kinds of runbys and drops as zerg gives up muta for more late game units.
That is why broodlords have completely disappeared and ultras are only good until terran gets more marauders/PFs.
either way with the new economy shaping up, the late late game will be much harder to get to. we are mostly talking about which deathball is stronger is more because the mid game often leads to both players entering late game more or less in equal ground, other than TvP.
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i bet 1 day later on first of april they announce a new terra unit that will be an april fool xD and totaly overpowerd shit xDD
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On March 21 2015 22:44 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 22:25 Big J wrote:On March 21 2015 20:56 Elentos wrote:On March 21 2015 19:16 JCoto wrote:
It's fun to see the Terran complain about Toss having a good infantry unit when in fact Terrans have the best infantry units (by far) in the game and a combined healer/dropship.
Terran also has the shittiest late game by far, that has to be compensated somewhere. And you're basically saying stalkers, zealots, sentries, HTs and DTs aren't good units, which is BS. That's not really true, it's just bio that cannot transition very well in Terrans strongest compositions. Or at least trying to do so is worse than just trying to win earlier. Protoss getting some earlier low tier splash could be very good for the game and could justify getting rid of/severely nerfing/greatly redesigning crap like Photon Overcharge and Forcefield. What would you consider Terran's strongest compositions in late game? BC/raven/viking? That's still easily worse than late game Zerg and Protoss if properly controlled. And bio, as you said, is very difficult to transition out of to begin with. And that's why Terran needs strong infantry, because getting away from it is almost impossible. That's why, what I want for Terrans with LotV, is a unit that helps a bio player in the late game. I'd be fine if they did something to the ghost to make that work, whatever. But when you see that most Terrans opt to SCV pull rather than enter the ghost-HT wars, you know something's not going well past a certain point in the game. I mean, the cyclone is a step to making mech more viable against Protoss, but I'm not sure that's gonna work either.
You pointed it really well the weak terran point. Both mech transitioning and Biomech compossitions suffer a lot against P, but even also against Z, where Hellbats and WMines work somewhat better. The statment about SCV pulls is a bit more discussable, since they have a quite decent risk/reward factor when hitting on timings, supported by MULE mechanic (20 SCVs mining = 5 mules mining so hey, losing aorund 15 workers when on 3-4 Orbitals shouldn't be game ending). I honestly think that Ghosts work fairly well, since there is a lot of micro involved in that fights and ability to counter from both sides. EMPs are also very strong vs Protoss. So I wouldn't say that Ghosts don't work. Pros achieve a lot with them, so maybe it is because proper control is hard, but that is common on dedicated spell casters.
However, it is true that the lack of flexibility in Terran styles, and with infantry being really strong to compensate (but very sensitive to AoE) makes the metagame narrow, boring, and not exactly fun. Being forced to tech to high tier AoE units is as boring as being stuck at playing Bio because mech is not reliable, hard to transition to and quite easier to counter.
With the LotV buffs to the Terran Mech play (SiegeTank Medivac, Cyclone) and the Immortal nerf, BioMech and Mech are going to be really strong and fairly more viable against Protoss. However I have to say that I dislike the Cyclone concept, but maybe that is because the demos we've seen so far show a really broken unit, with good damage, mobility and insane kiting range.
I don't exactly agree with the Disruptor stats neither, but the microable scarab concept it's a ton of fun. A unit that replaces 50% Storms and Colossi because it has huge damage at very high cost is not exactly a really good option for the Protoss tech tree. Maybe it should be reworked to be more solid instead of looking for the big lucky shot, or be something a bit more refined with the same utility but having less damage (insta storm damage is crazy) and being cheaper. In LotV we are looking for continous trading and skirmishes over insta-"Brutal Damage" as the video said, aren't we? There was a concept around the US forums that was really cool, and with a strong Reaver Flavor.
About the protoss early game discussion, I wouldn't mind some Forcefield nerf in cost or duration, but a slight one, as it is needed for the early game defense but also to counter some of the Gateway unit's weaknesses. Remove Photon Overcharge any day, it's pure shit and an quite an insult to the race. That was needed (a bit) to be implemented because the early game design from the Protoss was messed up mostly becuause of the Chornoboost problematic during SC2 alpha balancing, and they have never touched it again. Meanwhile research times have become longer and longer to prevent abuse and timings. You can easily track this by looking at the balance history of Zealot build times and the time increase in Warpgate tech.
Macro production booster since the very first second = ton of problems, shitty early game balance, and discussable dessign quality. Both Terran and Zerg have their Macroboosters delayed a bit but acessible after few minutes, as they would be broken if they were avaiblable since the very first minute. Protoss shouldn't have their early game balanced around minute 1 Chronoboost and inmediate access to Warpgate (because this improves production drastically apart from negating wait times/travelling) to match the enemy macro once they acess their macroboosters.
This could be easily balanced by delaying Chronoboost access to match other the two other races a bit and empowering Gateway play with production advantage, while nerfing the Warpgate production, and we might not need that proposed LotV nerfs, also giving a natural progression to the Protoss play instead of encouraging "turtling until high tech is done".
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EPT
