EPTLotV closed beta announced to start on March 31 - Page 34
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Thanks to Reddit sleuths, everyone can try the LotV test maps by following instructions here. Note: This is not a beta key, it is simply access to Vs. AI and a Unit Tester. I have no idea how cool with this Blizzard is or is not, use at your own risk. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On March 20 2015 11:05 Gamegene wrote: meanwhile no one cares about zerg drops :c Honestly overlords can move fast and can drop they just cost upgrades  If they already arent both one upgrade, they probably should be but idk what you would wanna drop out of an overlord Roaches and lings wont be useful to drop. Hydras maybe and ultras i guess, perhaps old baneling bombs would come back but they only stopped cuz it was too much to invest to get a bane nest vs Protoss and vs terran its better to actually have the banelings to defend while harassing with mutas. | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On March 20 2015 11:24 ZeromuS wrote: Honestly overlords can move fast and can drop they just cost upgrades If they already arent both one upgrade, they probably should be but idk what you would wanna drop out of an overlord Roaches and lings wont be useful to drop. Hydras maybe and ultras i guess, perhaps old baneling bombs would come back but they only stopped cuz it was too much to invest to get a bane nest vs Protoss and vs terran its better to actually have the banelings to defend while harassing with mutas. Dropping a few banelings and zerglings might not be a terrible idea in the mid-game, I would think (heck, even multiple drops). It's probably better than the "try to sneak into his third with 8 banelings" method we see a lot. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 20 2015 11:24 ZeromuS wrote: Honestly overlords can move fast and can drop they just cost upgrades If they already arent both one upgrade, they probably should be but idk what you would wanna drop out of an overlord Roaches and lings wont be useful to drop. Hydras maybe and ultras i guess, perhaps old baneling bombs would come back but they only stopped cuz it was too much to invest to get a bane nest vs Protoss and vs terran its better to actually have the banelings to defend while harassing with mutas. Lurker drops man | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
I hope they also increase the damage for sentries back to 8 now that they are going to suck a bit in PvZ. | ||
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On March 20 2015 11:00 ZeromuS wrote: There wont be randomness. But i think the power of the nydus in being able to send units wherever you want on the map alongside it being invulnerable is not the best design choice. I feel like it takes away the whole notion of positioning for the thing. I could understand if the nydus worm was invincible when burrowing if it was purely defensive -- that is a fantastic design choice, maybe make it break forcefields when it pops (massive tag). This would mean the protoss cant just ff it to keep drones from running. Especially since we are encouraging more expansions, making it defensive is great idea. Without its offensive capability it could then be cheaper making it a more viable option. How do we make it more defensive? Well if it requires creep to be down then that offers an interesting option for the zerg. The only way it can be used offensively then is to get a lair, get a nydus, get an overlord into the offensive position THEN drop creep then place they nydus worm. The extra steps provide more counterplay like having control of the air space in your base for example. Make creep drop from ovie interruptable so that on damage the overlord stops dropping creep and bam. Nydus is easier to defend than the vision only invulnerable nydus, AND it requires the zerg to commit his overlord more than JUST providing vision for nydus placement. As to rate of creep, how much you need before nydus can go up, etc, thats all up for tweaking but I feel like just having an invulnerable nydus in the name of harass is not the best way to go. The fact it can transport so much of an army so easily is a little problematic. Its the same reason Mothership recall in WoL was changed. And that was at a very high tier of tech, whereas the nydus is on a much lower tech tier. Being able to transport THAT much of an army that quickly is problematic. The mothership core had very high HP and moved slowly, but there were the odd backdoor strats though rare. The nydus if unscouted is already very powerful, making it so that you need to prevent pathing of units trying to exit it is, IMO, a problem. I know it might not be broken but its terribly unfun. It becomes very binary in the other way. Right now it feels bad if zerg has it scouted, the other way it will feel bad if you cant perfectly surround it. The role of harassing is also going to be filled by swarmhosts possibly and this in addition to already existing mutalisks. I think that zerg could use more base to base mobility or control of their creep spread. Thematically the more defensive nydus that is on creep only i think also fits zerg better. It helps improve the mobility of their ground units, making ultralisks better without actually changing the ultralisk. that my 2 cents on the nydus, Ill wait to play with it but i think there are more subtle and fun changes they can make through redesign imo. Good post. I like the idea of the creep requirement that you mentioned above, but only if they changed something else about the nydus (such as no noise upon map placement). However, with the way it is set up now and adding the stipulation that it must be placed on creep, we would see nydus networks even less than we already do at the professional level. I think Blizzard is simply looking for a way to make the nydus a more desirable option. Do I think invincibility is the answer? As a zerg lover, no. Do I have an answer? Again, no. There are lots of things we could modify about the nydus, such as spawning time, health, noise upon placement, rate of unit regurgitation, price, tier available, the list goes on. I think it makes more sense to possibly modify one of these to make the nydus more viable, as opposed to making it invincible. But it's up to Blizzard to experiment with those and determine what change is best, if any at all. I'm sure they've thought of everything that I have said in this post, so they must have a good reason for implementing this change. Personally, I have faith that they'll get it right. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On March 20 2015 11:05 Gamegene wrote: meanwhile no one cares about zerg drops :c omg I do!  One of the coolest things that's nearly obsolete in HotS. I really hope ventral sacs makes a comeback in LotV. | ||
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On March 20 2015 11:49 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: omg I do! One of the coolest things that's nearly obsolete in HotS. I really hope ventral sacs makes a comeback in LotV. The only time I've ever seen it is when a pro accidentely researches it. :-( I think it should be lumped with overlord speed and then have the upgrade cost a little more than speed (150/150 maybe?). | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On March 20 2015 10:06 Blisse wrote: The best part of BC warp is on huge maps your BCs can be more mobile and teleport out if they're caught out of position instead of sniped away by 4 vikings. Or they can harass at one point and have your ground army attack at another, then teleport to the ground army if needed. It makes BCs more mobile on large maps. Also gets you crazy snipe opportunities in late late game, 5 BC suicide to snipe greater spire when Zerg is stalling Broodlords? I would happily trade a greater spire for 5 BCs. 5 Battle Cruisers represents an absurd about of money and supply. Once they are dead, a move across the map and win. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On March 20 2015 12:03 ohmylanta1003 wrote: The only time I've ever seen it is when a pro accidentely researches it. :-( I think it should be lumped with overlord speed and then have the upgrade cost a little more than speed (150/150 maybe?). Watch more of Hyun, he uses overlord drops pretty often (often with nydus for reinforcements too), and it's also not incredibly uncommon in ZvT / ZvP to see a big roach drop timing / all-in. It's just pretty much never worth dropping a small # of zerg units to harass, especially fast moving units like lings or roaches that you could just have do a runbye / burrow move past anyway. Maybe the lurker will change that. | ||
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On March 20 2015 12:14 Pursuit_ wrote: Watch more of Hyun, he uses overlord drops pretty often (often with nydus for reinforcements too), and it's also not incredibly uncommon in ZvT / ZvP to see a big roach drop timing / all-in. It's just pretty much never worth dropping a small # of zerg units to harass, especially fast moving units like lings or roaches that you could just have do a runbye / burrow move past anyway. Maybe the lurker will change that. Interesting! I only pay close attention to the Korean scene and he's really not a big part of it currently. It'd be cool to see that actually happen! | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
SSSHHHHH. No one needs to remember that crap. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On March 20 2015 11:46 ohmylanta1003 wrote: Good post. I like the idea of the creep requirement that you mentioned above, but only if they changed something else about the nydus (such as no noise upon map placement). However, with the way it is set up now and adding the stipulation that it must be placed on creep, we would see nydus networks even less than we already do at the professional level. I think Blizzard is simply looking for a way to make the nydus a more desirable option. Do I think invincibility is the answer? As a zerg lover, no. Do I have an answer? Again, no. There are lots of things we could modify about the nydus, such as spawning time, health, noise upon placement, rate of unit regurgitation, price, tier available, the list goes on. I think it makes more sense to possibly modify one of these to make the nydus more viable, as opposed to making it invincible. But it's up to Blizzard to experiment with those and determine what change is best, if any at all. I'm sure they've thought of everything that I have said in this post, so they must have a good reason for implementing this change. Personally, I have faith that they'll get it right. I'm just of the opinion that the nydus is a terrible aggressive option for anything other than very gimmicky play. IMO its better to look at the BW nydus as it served its purpose pretty well. Also with creep spread in SC2 and how it works we will definitely see it as an aggressive option to supply attacks or offer a retreat option for zerg. It makes the creep on the map much more valuable if you can set nyduses up on it more easily than you can use nydus now. I know zerg doesnt need more mobility in the mid game for things like lings or banes, but they come out of the nydus so slowly they wouldn't use it anyway. It would be a boon again to lategame units like ultras and also offer great counterattack options for things like roaches or hydras against protoss or other zergs (maybe vs mech not sure what the zerg comp will be vs. mech but i dont think ling/bane would benefit from the nydus as much as roach/hydra/infestor so vs bio its less useful). | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3392 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On March 20 2015 13:17 ejozl wrote: What would be a good way to encourage overlord drops more? Other than a reduction in cost. Thing is, LotV meta might indirectly help. I think drops fell out of popularity in HotS for a number of reasons. SHs and Vipers allowed Zerg a much more reliable means of breaking a fortified position or just to flat out turtle themselves. The popularity of Stargate openings and the great scouting tools now available to protoss make drops a much more risky option. Nydus worms are safer. In ZvT mutas are even more reliable for harassment damage than in WoL. Drops require too much effort for little payoff most of the time. Now for LotV, the SH is drastically being changed. It's not confirmed yet, but I'd imagine the viper is going to lose abduct for that irradiate knockoff. Then there's the lurker, which seems like it would actually have good synergy with drops. So maybe on that alone we could see a comeback of ventral sacs to some extent. In addition, I hope they scrap the current nydus idea and move it to Hive tech with quicker unload speed and a reduced cost. That would help eliminate some of the overlap it has with drop tech imo. | ||
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On March 20 2015 13:17 ejozl wrote: What would be a good way to encourage overlord drops more? Other than a reduction in cost. I like to use Ovie drops in roach wars ZvZ when I'm behind, they are very effective I must say, specially if you have burrow/roach movement while burrowed, but the cost is simply Huugggeeee for them to be effective. The main problem with overlord drops is that Zerg does not really have anything to drop that's cost effective, you won't be dropping Hidras or Roaches on a PvZ or TvZ, now with ravagers and lurkers you may start seeing more ovie drops because these units can actually dish out damage without fearing static D as much. | ||
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ETisME
12414 Posts
TvZ bio mine is non stop aggression, you might as well get more mutas. Plus muta is needed so that the trades are harder for terran. For mech, it can work but I think the option to go swarmhost and vipers are better. in late game drip is pointless too. ZvZ you might as well just go burrow movement roach. ZvP same as tvz mech, how much are you really gonna achieve? You kill off some production but loses a big part of your army, everything more or less just resets I hope we will see more in lotv but I don't think it's that high in priority. I would love to see more nydus actions instead. | ||
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duckk
United States622 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On March 20 2015 15:13 duckk wrote: so does this mean zerg can use three nydus wyrms to forcefield ramps, or are you able to walk through them since they cant be targeted? I will gladly make 5 nydus wyrms just to forcefield in fights. Pretty sure they'll still have standard building pathing requirements, but it might work as a pretty cool (if expensive) tool to prevent your opponent's army from running away. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Combine muta harass with lurker drop. Mutas take out turrets, lurkers kill marines. Don't have tanks or thors? gg! I think the lurker will force the terran to go at least partial mech: tanks or thors, because I really don't see what would beat muta-lurker in the usual TvZ bio force. Or does the hurricane kill lurkers? | ||
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