Note: This is not a beta key, it is simply access to Vs. AI and a Unit Tester. I have no idea how cool with this Blizzard is or is not, use at your own risk.
On March 20 2015 08:43 Elentos wrote: Can we stop complaining about the invincible nydus worm already? When reacted to appropriately, it's not going to do more than it does currently and it's still going to die a horrible death.
The concern is about Nydus all-ins mainly against Protoss who barely have anything out when Nydus hits; and the players in that video weren't taking it seriously at all >_>.
On March 20 2015 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Have they talked about whether the battlecruiser ability would require you to cast it for each individual bc or if you could control + click a group and select a point to warp them all to? If its individual (meaning you need to click a new location for each bc) I can't help but feel like the ability will be near useless. Though if you can warp all at once I think it would be awesome to use with ravens. Spend a few PDDs to keep them safe during the teleport and then warp them all to one location
The problem with BC warp will be, even if executed ... what will the BCs accomplish once they warp in? They are still hard countered by Vikings / Voids / Stalkers / Corrupters. And if you warp in 50 supply of BCs without the rest of you army, they will fare just as badly. Maybe you can warp out and let the rest of your army (Ravens / Vikings) die. If the warp in costs more than Yamato, then a huge portion of the utility of the BC goes away when you use that warp in. And you also cant use warp in to quickly reinforce newly built BCs (which would be the best thing you could possibly do with this ability).
On March 20 2015 08:43 Elentos wrote: Can we stop complaining about the invincible nydus worm already? When reacted to appropriately, it's not going to do more than it does currently and it's still going to die a horrible death.
The concern is about Nydus all-ins mainly against Protoss who barely have anything out when Nydus hits; and the players in that video weren't taking it seriously at all >_>.
Yes but for that to happen you need to: -miss the Nydus Network in the Zerg's base when scouting -miss the Overlord giving vision to the Zerg player at the edge of your base -miss the Nydus Worm emerging inside of your base for 20 seconds
If all of that happens, I might as well kill you with Overlord drops.
On March 20 2015 08:43 Elentos wrote: Can we stop complaining about the invincible nydus worm already? When reacted to appropriately, it's not going to do more than it does currently and it's still going to die a horrible death.
The concern is about Nydus all-ins mainly against Protoss who barely have anything out when Nydus hits; and the players in that video weren't taking it seriously at all >_>.
Yes but for that to happen you need to: -miss the Nydus Network in the Zerg's base when scouting -miss the Overlord giving vision to the Zerg player at the edge of your base -miss the Nydus Worm emerging inside of your base for 20 seconds
If all of that happens, I might as well kill you with Overlord drops.
How are you meant to kill the Nydus Worm when you opened Forge expand and have a Zealot, Stalker and MSc? I think the worker change could change the timings so you just about have enough if your units stay at home and don't wander off on the map.
On March 20 2015 08:43 Elentos wrote: Can we stop complaining about the invincible nydus worm already? When reacted to appropriately, it's not going to do more than it does currently and it's still going to die a horrible death.
The concern is about Nydus all-ins mainly against Protoss who barely have anything out when Nydus hits; and the players in that video weren't taking it seriously at all >_>.
Yes but for that to happen you need to: -miss the Nydus Network in the Zerg's base when scouting -miss the Overlord giving vision to the Zerg player at the edge of your base -miss the Nydus Worm emerging inside of your base for 20 seconds
If all of that happens, I might as well kill you with Overlord drops.
How are you meant to kill the Nydus Worm when you opened Forge expand and have a Zealot, Stalker and MSc? I think the worker change could change the timings so you just about have enough if your units stay at home and don't wander off on the map.
If you get a full surround on the worm, there is not enough space for units to come out, meaning you can kill it with a full worker surround without losing the workers. Or you build pylons all around it and wall it in. Or something like that. Then it does nothing and nyduses are too expensive to do nothing.
On March 20 2015 08:43 Elentos wrote: Can we stop complaining about the invincible nydus worm already? When reacted to appropriately, it's not going to do more than it does currently and it's still going to die a horrible death.
The concern is about Nydus all-ins mainly against Protoss who barely have anything out when Nydus hits; and the players in that video weren't taking it seriously at all >_>.
Yes but for that to happen you need to: -miss the Nydus Network in the Zerg's base when scouting -miss the Overlord giving vision to the Zerg player at the edge of your base -miss the Nydus Worm emerging inside of your base for 20 seconds
If all of that happens, I might as well kill you with Overlord drops.
How are you meant to kill the Nydus Worm when you opened Forge expand and have a Zealot, Stalker and MSc? I think the worker change could change the timings so you just about have enough if your units stay at home and don't wander off on the map.
If you get a full surround on the worm, there is not enough space for units to come out, meaning you can kill it with a full worker surround without losing the workers. Or you build pylons all around it and wall it in. Or something like that. Then it does nothing and nyduses are too expensive to do nothing.
If the worker surround works then it'll be fine, but I don't think it will. Building a wall of Pylons? You aren't going to have 1000 minerals to waste, and there will still probably be room around it for units to come out.
On March 20 2015 08:43 Elentos wrote: Can we stop complaining about the invincible nydus worm already? When reacted to appropriately, it's not going to do more than it does currently and it's still going to die a horrible death.
The concern is about Nydus all-ins mainly against Protoss who barely have anything out when Nydus hits; and the players in that video weren't taking it seriously at all >_>.
Yes but for that to happen you need to: -miss the Nydus Network in the Zerg's base when scouting -miss the Overlord giving vision to the Zerg player at the edge of your base -miss the Nydus Worm emerging inside of your base for 20 seconds
If all of that happens, I might as well kill you with Overlord drops.
How are you meant to kill the Nydus Worm when you opened Forge expand and have a Zealot, Stalker and MSc? I think the worker change could change the timings so you just about have enough if your units stay at home and don't wander off on the map.
If you get a full surround on the worm, there is not enough space for units to come out, meaning you can kill it with a full worker surround without losing the workers. Or you build pylons all around it and wall it in. Or something like that. Then it does nothing and nyduses are too expensive to do nothing.
If the worker surround works then it'll be fine, but I don't think it will. Building a wall of Pylons? You aren't going to have 1000 minerals to waste, and there will still probably be room around it for units to come out.
Full worker surround + stalker + mothership core should be enough. If it's not it's obviously a matter of questionable balance, but that's what the beta's for. I wouldn't condemn this change yet, though. And I guess when you opened forge expand you're more likely to get roach/ravager busted anyway because of your lack of units.
Lots of things will change in the beta. Existing units in hots will change...Blizzard said so themself.
Maybe protoss will be able to scout easier in lotv. Maybe lotv will make it easier to react to things for all races. Less rng crap. Nydus might become a thing, which can be good. Not only can they be used to attack but also to defend, to get mapcontrol and such.
Its pointless drawing conclusions..Really, its rly pointless. Discuss what you want to see design wise instead.
On March 20 2015 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Have they talked about whether the battlecruiser ability would require you to cast it for each individual bc or if you could control + click a group and select a point to warp them all to? If its individual (meaning you need to click a new location for each bc) I can't help but feel like the ability will be near useless. Though if you can warp all at once I think it would be awesome to use with ravens. Spend a few PDDs to keep them safe during the teleport and then warp them all to one location
The problem with BC warp will be, even if executed ... what will the BCs accomplish once they warp in? They are still hard countered by Vikings / Voids / Stalkers / Corrupters. And if you warp in 50 supply of BCs without the rest of you army, they will fare just as badly. Maybe you can warp out and let the rest of your army (Ravens / Vikings) die. If the warp in costs more than Yamato, then a huge portion of the utility of the BC goes away when you use that warp in. And you also cant use warp in to quickly reinforce newly built BCs (which would be the best thing you could possibly do with this ability).
I'm talking about something more akin to mamma core + a few voidrays come in and snipe a base. Except instead of recall you use a PDD and warp out. Worst case you trade a raven for whatever you get, best case you trade energy.
On March 20 2015 08:43 Elentos wrote: Can we stop complaining about the invincible nydus worm already? When reacted to appropriately, it's not going to do more than it does currently and it's still going to die a horrible death.
The concern is about Nydus all-ins mainly against Protoss who barely have anything out when Nydus hits; and the players in that video weren't taking it seriously at all >_>.
Yes but for that to happen you need to: -miss the Nydus Network in the Zerg's base when scouting -miss the Overlord giving vision to the Zerg player at the edge of your base -miss the Nydus Worm emerging inside of your base for 20 seconds
If all of that happens, I might as well kill you with Overlord drops.
How are you meant to kill the Nydus Worm when you opened Forge expand and have a Zealot, Stalker and MSc? I think the worker change could change the timings so you just about have enough if your units stay at home and don't wander off on the map.
Don't open forge expand. If its a case of balance it will be fixed, but if its a case of "muh build won't work anymore" then LotV will have a bunch of new openers
Ok, so let's say T decides to go Mech which as soon as Z scouts it, they A: spam SH/Viper then we'll see if the new longer cool down and manual launching can counteract the locust buff, the fact that they can launch without burrowing, and the fact that they can fly (I doubt it will). Z also get's vipes to blinding cloud... so then T goes with some air. Ravens Vikings and some BCs just to take care of ground. Z spams corruptors uses the new vipe ability (which is basically a better version of hunterseeker) to easily decimate that air the second it's in range... so... I feel like Terran gets painted into a very very disadvantageous corner. One where they are forced even more to go bio and get crushed by bane muta that requires half the micro and packs 2 times the punch... It seems as though the devs keep coming up with easy ways for Z and P to deal with the only things that T has that works without giving T some nasty things in return... I have no real problem with new things being nasty and potentially broken for Z and P... I just want them to spread the love to T... for once. and Don't just dig up something from BW, spitshine it and throw the bandaid on the bullet would that is T v Z/P... It just doesn't seem like they care...
On March 20 2015 09:35 Disciple7seveN wrote: Ok, so let's say T decides to go Mech which as soon as Z scouts it, they A: spam SH/Viper then we'll see if the new longer cool down and manual launching can counteract the locust buff, the fact that they can launch without burrowing, and the fact that they can fly (I doubt it will). Z also get's vipes to blinding cloud... so then T goes with some air. Ravens Vikings and some BCs just to take care of ground. Z spams corruptors uses the new vipe ability (which is basically a better version of hunterseeker) to easily decimate that air the second it's in range... so... I feel like Terran gets painted into a very very disadvantageous corner. One where they are forced even more to go bio and get crushed by bane muta that requires half the micro and packs 2 times the punch... It seems as though the devs keep coming up with easy ways for Z and P to deal with the only things that T has that works without giving T some nasty things in return... I have no real problem with new things being nasty and potentially broken for Z and P... I just want them to spread the love to T... for once. and Don't just dig up something from BW, spitshine it and throw the bandaid on the bullet would that is T v Z/P... It just doesn't seem like they care...
That's some pretty ridiculous theorycrafting there...
On March 19 2015 07:59 SorrowShine wrote: Best change: Nydus takes no damage while spawning. Good days are coming
:D I honestly sometimes seriously doupt they ever think about a decision they make. They just make them. I mean seriously, add more versatility/randomness onto a game that calls itself a E-SPORT game?
A SPORT-game has a low random factor, the better player /athlete usually wins. Creating more upsets and possibilities for a lesser player to win, doesn't help making the game more towards being taken serious (in a competitive way).
On March 20 2015 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Have they talked about whether the battlecruiser ability would require you to cast it for each individual bc or if you could control + click a group and select a point to warp them all to? If its individual (meaning you need to click a new location for each bc) I can't help but feel like the ability will be near useless. Though if you can warp all at once I think it would be awesome to use with ravens. Spend a few PDDs to keep them safe during the teleport and then warp them all to one location
The problem with BC warp will be, even if executed ... what will the BCs accomplish once they warp in? They are still hard countered by Vikings / Voids / Stalkers / Corrupters. And if you warp in 50 supply of BCs without the rest of you army, they will fare just as badly. Maybe you can warp out and let the rest of your army (Ravens / Vikings) die. If the warp in costs more than Yamato, then a huge portion of the utility of the BC goes away when you use that warp in. And you also cant use warp in to quickly reinforce newly built BCs (which would be the best thing you could possibly do with this ability).
The best part of BC warp is on huge maps your BCs can be more mobile and teleport out if they're caught out of position instead of sniped away by 4 vikings. Or they can harass at one point and have your ground army attack at another, then teleport to the ground army if needed. It makes BCs more mobile on large maps. Also gets you crazy snipe opportunities in late late game, 5 BC suicide to snipe greater spire when Zerg is stalling Broodlords?
Calm down guys, remember what HotS first beta iteration looked like and the game we got -for the better and the worse. The game will change so much until release, and Blizzard finally seems willing to listen to the community/pros. I'm reasonably optimistic as long as they realise a high expansions count game cannot give the attacker/harasser too much of an edge.
On March 19 2015 07:59 SorrowShine wrote: Best change: Nydus takes no damage while spawning. Good days are coming
:D I honestly sometimes seriously doupt they ever think about a decision they make. They just make them. I mean seriously, add more versatility/randomness onto a game that calls itself a E-SPORT game?
A SPORT-game has a low random factor, the better player /athlete usually wins. Creating more upsets and possibilities for a lesser player to win, doesn't help making the game more towards being taken serious (in a competitive way).
How does invincible nydus make the game more random? The better player will find the Nydus sooner and prepare for it properly.
On March 19 2015 07:59 SorrowShine wrote: Best change: Nydus takes no damage while spawning. Good days are coming
:D I honestly sometimes seriously doupt they ever think about a decision they make. They just make them. I mean seriously, add more versatility/randomness onto a game that calls itself a E-SPORT game?
A SPORT-game has a low random factor, the better player /athlete usually wins. Creating more upsets and possibilities for a lesser player to win, doesn't help making the game more towards being taken serious (in a competitive way).
How does invincible nydus make the game more random? The better player will find the Nydus sooner and prepare for it properly.
It doesn't. He just really doesn't know what he is talking about. I'd say that it's incredibly difficult to argue that there is too much randomness in SC. It's not like we're rollin' dice and shit.
btw, is "make everything invulnerable" the new "make everything faster"? Nydus, Stasis, Shade, Disruptor, Immortal; even pick up micro and its buffs are enforcing invulnerability (units inside a transport cannot be attacked)
Do we now hate when stuff dies or what? I always thought stuff blowing other stuff up was the cool part of the game and combat delay tactics was what sucked...
On March 19 2015 07:59 SorrowShine wrote: Best change: Nydus takes no damage while spawning. Good days are coming
:D I honestly sometimes seriously doupt they ever think about a decision they make. They just make them. I mean seriously, add more versatility/randomness onto a game that calls itself a E-SPORT game?
A SPORT-game has a low random factor, the better player /athlete usually wins. Creating more upsets and possibilities for a lesser player to win, doesn't help making the game more towards being taken serious (in a competitive way).
How does invincible nydus make the game more random? The better player will find the Nydus sooner and prepare for it properly.
It doesn't. He just really doesn't know what he is talking about. I'd say that it's incredibly difficult to argue that there is too much randomness in SC. It's not like we're rollin' dice and shit.
There wont be randomness.
But i think the power of the nydus in being able to send units wherever you want on the map alongside it being invulnerable is not the best design choice.
I feel like it takes away the whole notion of positioning for the thing.
I could understand if the nydus worm was invincible when burrowing if it was purely defensive -- that is a fantastic design choice, maybe make it break forcefields when it pops (massive tag). This would mean the protoss cant just ff it to keep drones from running.
Especially since we are encouraging more expansions, making it defensive is great idea. Without its offensive capability it could then be cheaper making it a more viable option.
How do we make it more defensive?
Well if it requires creep to be down then that offers an interesting option for the zerg. The only way it can be used offensively then is to get a lair, get a nydus, get an overlord into the offensive position THEN drop creep then place they nydus worm.
The extra steps provide more counterplay like having control of the air space in your base for example. Make creep drop from ovie interruptable so that on damage the overlord stops dropping creep and bam. Nydus is easier to defend than the vision only invulnerable nydus, AND it requires the zerg to commit his overlord more than JUST providing vision for nydus placement.
As to rate of creep, how much you need before nydus can go up, etc, thats all up for tweaking but I feel like just having an invulnerable nydus in the name of harass is not the best way to go.
The fact it can transport so much of an army so easily is a little problematic.
Its the same reason Mothership recall in WoL was changed. And that was at a very high tier of tech, whereas the nydus is on a much lower tech tier. Being able to transport THAT much of an army that quickly is problematic. The mothership core had very high HP and moved slowly, but there were the odd backdoor strats though rare.
The nydus if unscouted is already very powerful, making it so that you need to prevent pathing of units trying to exit it is, IMO, a problem.
I know it might not be broken but its terribly unfun. It becomes very binary in the other way. Right now it feels bad if zerg has it scouted, the other way it will feel bad if you cant perfectly surround it.
The role of harassing is also going to be filled by swarmhosts possibly and this in addition to already existing mutalisks. I think that zerg could use more base to base mobility or control of their creep spread.
Thematically the more defensive nydus that is on creep only i think also fits zerg better. It helps improve the mobility of their ground units, making ultralisks better without actually changing the ultralisk.
that my 2 cents on the nydus, Ill wait to play with it but i think there are more subtle and fun changes they can make through redesign imo.
EPT
