You final thoughts about the oracle change not being a good option vs banshee or DT is actually a good change though.
Previously it just takes the role of the observer entirely. And it has more hp, can move faster, and can also serve as a harassment or scouting unit. This is a bad overlap, as it allows certain builds to be nearly impervious at no extra cost in tech to be safe to other specific builds.
If that were fair, why not give all overlords detection like bw again then? Zerg needs better detection options too.
Not to be too overly critical but your analysis here is very off. The reason it was acceptable in HotS was that it gave you a different way to play the MUs and they have become very main stream openers off of this. To be restricted to robotics tech for permanent detection as a protoss player is quite terrible. There is no protoss build since mid 2013 where you get a forge early enough to defend against Banshee with cloak now. Terrans have scans AND turrets which are a part of all reasonable builds. Zergs have Overseers and spore which are a part of all reasonable builds. If you open SG and something else, which is very understandable in PvP or PvT -- as we are the tech and attack race-- and then simply die because someone makes cloaked units it is most certainly NOT the fact that the build is bad but rather just an unnecessary nerf to a unit.
I am under the impression most all other pro players will agree with this. I am not sure how else they can go about keeping both of these options unless they want to limit openers from Toss players, which may be what they're attempting to do idk?
The oracle as it was before played a very important role in defending against such attacks and now when they buff things like Banshee so that they start with cloak it only seems reasonable that if you want a Pheonix which kills air you should simultaneously be able to make Oracles to help defend against such a push. It is an investment of 2 units vs 1 unit. Now, that one unit has been buffed with something that used to be an upgrade. Yet the defending player gets nerfed. This is not how it should be.
So, in short, the effective cost of a banshee is much lower than what protoss must build to defend against them. That's just bad all around.
Just in case people buy into what was stated above... No one permanently uses Oracles for detection in any match ups. It's a short temporary fix for transitioning as are turrets and spores. If we're going to accurately discuss implications of the direction their changes are going in please do not post things that may lead other readers to think about the game incorrectly. @_@;;
and edit: disruptors do not hit each other. I do not think they should either. I do think they may need to have their CD nerfed to 45 seconds however. Or something of the sort. 30 seconds might still feel a little too short when you have 5 of them.
you can just make a sentry, hallucinate a pheonix and scout that he is going banshee. As simple as that. You have really no excuse to die from cloaked unit apart from being too greedy with your gas.
Name a reasonable SG opener in HotS for protoss that is "being too greedy" with gas with a SG opener other than 10g 10gas 2nd pylon proxy oracle? You are telling me to make a sentry, get a msc and then defend a scouting reaper for example? I'd be interested to hear this new amazing perspective to the meta game in PvT because uh, last time I checked no one has made a sentry that early since like late 2012 unless they're going stalker > sentry > colo drop...
By choosing to go SG first surely can be a "gamble" but the point I made was that it isn't an all in to simply make a different tech building first. This is common variation in PvP. If doing so is in fact a economic all in, then again as I stated above, there is clearly something wrong with the nerf to the unit.
Again, for all I know this could be what they're trying to achieve but I don't think it makes any reasonable amount of sense in retrospect to how the game is played now (HotS) and will, unless you are choosing to all in, virtually eliminate SG openers in PvP as the video was based on. Two DTs split will literally end a game if your builds clash. This sort of thing is easily avoided due to how the oracle is now.
And to be clear, it doesn't mean PvP is instantly a terrible MU due to this change or that PvT is unwinnable it just means there is less variation for more interesting games. It is sort of incomprehensible because they already have it set up in a good way, but instead nerfed one unit which effects a ton of things and simultaneously buffed another that it is supposed to help counter. That should seem odd to everyone from a balance perspective.
About the Disruptor: I do not think it should do friendly fire to other disruptors because of the role it fills. It is supposed to be an alternative unit to the colossus and allows for the protoss player to stay ground based. This is particularly relevant when playing PvT. You can use disruptors to kill things like widow mines/make the bio split while then using a composition like zealot/immortal/storm. Your disruptors already murder zealots making them kill each other really does not allow you to have them follow suite from one another due to the fact that the trailing disruptors have a possibility to just die to the others. In essence, you'd be microing them /too/ much. It's cool to see disruptors microed vs bio, but when you're controlling multiple ones it seems odd to have to avoid your own other disruptors if you're microing against an army >.>
you're talking of builds like you can never deviate from them... I understand most tryhards follow builds blindly but let me give you my 2 cents.
If the terran doesn't expand, guess what, he could be going for banshee / mines. Maybe in that case you delay whatever techpath your going to build literally one unit that lets you scout the whole map. Or you could just scout with your phoenix if you're going SG.
I mean blizzard made it so that every race can scout pretty easily now. If you don't see a rush coming, it's pretty much your fault. I play Z and when I don't scout something, it's because I didn't try hard enough, not because of "imbalance".
You're saying nobody builds a sentry early? I mean I don't follow the pro scene anymore except finals and interesting games with Z (so rarely PvT) but it seems like an incredibly dumb statement. They must've a reason not to not build sentries in the games you watch. If you're having trouble with cloaked units, build detectors, seems pretty simple to me.
I understand that you're saying that it limits SG opening, but once again, an aggressive / techy cookie-cutter opening is pretty much a gamble, whether you like it or not. It'll win you game, it'll lose you some, but you can still play smartly and recognize a situation where the terran is going for cloak banshees and delay something to get a forge.
Other than that I don't know what to say. The game isn't even out yet, we know nothing of LotV but I doubt that any opening is limited so far.
On December 24 2014 13:13 crbox wrote: you're talking of builds like you can never deviate from them... I understand most tryhards follow builds blindly but let me give you my 2 cents.
You're saying nobody builds a sentry early? I mean I don't follow the pro scene anymore except finals and interesting games with Z (so rarely PvT) but it seems like an incredibly dumb statement. They must've a reason not to not build sentries in the games you watch.
I saw you in the LotV chat channel today so I'll be rather simple in my explanation for you. No. No one builds sentries in PvT until later. No, no one builds SG an oracle and then a robotics + sentries + obs in PvP especially assuming an oracle cannot detect 2 different units.
It might sound incredibly dumb to you due to your aforementioned statement of "I mean I don't follow the pro scene anymore.... so let me give you these reasons why I am clearly right and you are wrong"
It's not about being a "tryhard" it's about doing builds that work vs good players. If that is too hard to comprehend for you then... O.o...
I am hoping that I am not coming off as a random forum person... I actually play the game a bit D; + Show Spoiler +
I am all for reasonable deduction about units/balance etc, but when people post things that is so clearly wrong about the meta and then it just so happens other people from lower leagues read it and internalize it to be correct it is just incredibly detrimental to their understanding and discussion of the game. @_@;;
Static de is hardly a good means of detection or even defense versus drops or banshees early game. Especially when a spore costs you a drone to make as well. So even making the minimal (2 spores) you still lose 2 workers and 250 minerals. At most it acts as a deterrent from free reign, where the player needs to micro manage the workers/bldgs around the spore. Same goes for turrets.
Mainly they serve as a transition or delayer, not an outright counter (at least in the early game). And it could be argued that even late game, they are terrible forms of detection as more units will be around to snipe them off etc.
Protoss can do the same thing with canons and it only costs a forge (which you will probably have for upgrades already, the same as ebay) and 300 minerals minimum, and that cost is obviously higher because it hits air and ground.
Bringing this stuff up is sort of silly as far as mobile detection goes though, that's really what we were talking about.
Protoss - 2 units. (1 is fast and can defend itself, the other is cloaked)
Terran - 1 unit, 1 ability. (1 can defend itself, the other just requires you have energy to get detection instantly)
Zerg - 1 unit. ( assuming you have placed overlords around the map and the opponent hasn't killed them etc, they can be morphed in 20 seconds)
Can you guys mod archon mode so it has a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc.
On December 26 2014 13:58 MarlieChurphy wrote: Can you guys mod archon mode so it has a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc.
On December 26 2014 13:58 MarlieChurphy wrote: Can you guys mod archon mode so it has a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc.
...what? >.>...
Basically, he's saying that you should be able to know where your ally is looking so that you can adjust accordingly. I think.
On December 26 2014 13:58 MarlieChurphy wrote: Can you guys mod archon mode so it has a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc.
...what? >.>...
Basically, he's saying that you should be able to know where your ally is looking so that you can adjust accordingly. I think.
I understood. But if the game tells you how to beat it or all the things your teammate is doing it doesn't seem like much of a challenging game anymore does it? xD Moreover, this is, as far as I understand, not do-able. If you want to see your teammates screeen you need a stream/viewer program not the in game mod >.>
It's still reliant on your ability to macro and know the correct moves to make based on what you see your ally viewing. And also stills relies on your allies skill on using the correct units that you give him.
What?
If a perfect robot played SC2, all that is left to do is decision making anyway. That's the 'star sense'.
I don't play the mod, but I thought you guys might be interested: there was a mini-tournament with 4 Polish GM players: Nerchio, Tefel, Miszu and Indy VODs from twitch are here: http://www.twitch.tv/castplay/b/603780205 no English cast
On December 28 2014 22:17 Babru wrote: Are the latest changes implemented in the fan alpha yet (the latest mineral changes for example)? If not, any information on when that might happen?
yes.
There seems to be a bug with this actually.
On my map (recreated bloodbath from BW) there are mineral chunks that are value 30 in order to aid in early game walling sim city. As well as the gas geysers and side minerals being different values as they were in BW (essentially the map was 2 bases in 1 for total mineral value).
However in the new mod changes, it seems to just ignore all that stuff and randomly assign 750 or 1500 to things. The gas geysers were still the same actually though. (stayed at 5k each)
Can we fix this? Wasn't an issue with the original lotv alpha mod.
On December 26 2014 13:58 MarlieChurphy wrote: Can you guys mod archon mode so it has a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc.
...what? >.>...
Basically, he's saying that you should be able to know where your ally is looking so that you can adjust accordingly. I think.
I understood. But if the game tells you how to beat it or all the things your teammate is doing it doesn't seem like much of a challenging game anymore does it? xD Moreover, this is, as far as I understand, not do-able. If you want to see your teammates screeen you need a stream/viewer program not the in game mod >.>
I imagine this would be possible. When you watch a replay or spectate, you can lock your camera to a player's vision and see where they're looking and what they have selected. You could have a mod that takes the information of where your ally's screen is and displays it as a different colored box on the minimap. I think.
As for the actual mod, when can we expect an update to reflect the announced design changed? That is happening, right?
I saw you in the LotV chat channel today so I'll be rather simple in my explanation for you. No. No one builds sentries in PvT until later. No, no one builds SG an oracle and then a robotics + sentries + obs in PvP especially assuming an oracle cannot detect 2 different units.
and why? Because they can get away with it in the current state of balance and metagame. If the balance is changed, it means nothing what good players are doing and what they don't, its outdated BO decisions. The second part is just absurd, there is no need arguing about that. If PvP is being forced into that I'm sure Blizzard will change things long before release.
Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
EPT
