On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
Played some games with the mod (nothing serious, mostly against AI). I must say I'm favorably impressed ; the flow of the game is to be frank quite interesting and actually encourages expands while 2 base agressions are a real option. It's enjoyable. Of course a lot of balance issues remain but some things are really fun to mess up with ; disruptor could actually be a very good idea. I hate warp prism long range pick up though and the new tempest disgusts me, while the oracle is still as retarded as it ever was -and most probably will always be. But overall I like the feel of that new expansion, I'm a lot more confident after playtesting even that pre alpha alpha version that will not be anything like the final version of the game at all.
A quick remark though : it seems there is no way to avoid a 4-5 sec supply block if you go -as I think should be expected- probe, pylon and then resume probes. I may be wrong here, but wouldn't it be good to increase the initial mineral count from 50 to 100 so that you can go probe -> pylon -> resume probes without probe cut (I guess the same applies to other races too) ?
On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
Can you upload them somewhere? I'm interested.
I suggest you tweet @huskystarcraft to cast some of them ! I sent him 3 replays but he hasn't really moved on any of them yet. I'm waiting to see if he decides to cast any, but if not then I'll go ahead and do some more~
On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
Can you upload them somewhere? I'm interested.
I suggest you tweet @huskystarcraft to cast some of them ! I sent him 3 replays but he hasn't really moved on any of them yet. I'm waiting to see if he decides to cast any, but if not then I'll go ahead and do some more~
Send them to Jakatak, he is casting a lot of LotV games I'm sure he will be happy to do it
On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
I don't think that was immortal being weak, your army were just way smaller than his. sure you had the "perfect" counter units like immortals and archons, he also landed perfect emps. I believe even in hots it wouldn't have beat that mech army
Didn't watch your viewpoint (yet) but I watched thestc play you a few times on his stream. Really entertaining games. Better than the LOTV Axiom tournament to be honest.
On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
I don't think that was immortal being weak, your army were just way smaller than his. sure you had the "perfect" counter units like immortals and archons, he also landed perfect emps. I believe even in hots it wouldn't have beat that mech army
I agree this is the intended efect, in HotS you can 1A immortals into a aiege line with a superior supply and win, here you just 1A your immortals into a well placed siege line, a terran or zerg army can't do that and win I don't see why a protoss army should
On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
I don't think that was immortal being weak, your army were just way smaller than his. sure you had the "perfect" counter units like immortals and archons, he also landed perfect emps. I believe even in hots it wouldn't have beat that mech army
The point of this replay wasn't to showcase either player having perfect play. I also believe that even in HotS I would have lost this game, I don't have any issue admitting that especially vs thestc; however, I think it would have been in a different fashion. In HotS it is okay to engage and disengage with immortals mid map to slow down their push (this is pretty similar to BW PvsMech and you can see me in the middle of the map before his push comes) and let them regenerate shields while running home. However, in LotV you can't really do this due to the fact that immortals do not have the sustainability they used to have. If you use the ability in this current patch the immortal literally becomes useless vs mech after that 3 seconds. I kill like 3 tanks out of his whole army because you can't really dedicate to any attack with such weak units >.>
Honestly, if you cannot tell there is a problem here I don't know what to say @_@;;
I am getting a lost of posters on youtube telling me that you can't play mech at all in HotS so this is clearly the only way to balance the game. I feel like a lot of people are unaware that quite good players still play mech in HotS but it is just map dependent. This change is just silly, and more than likely, has already been reverted in their in-house play development, especially considering they were debating making it an upgrade (??!? this is just >.>...)
On January 13 2015 22:40 SoleSteeler wrote: Didn't watch your viewpoint (yet) but I watched thestc play you a few times on his stream. Really entertaining games. Better than the LOTV Axiom tournament to be honest.
Glad you enjoyed the games. As I mentioned, I definitely have more awesome replays so I'll check out if anyone popular wants to cast some of them. I just made this one to show how weak the immortals are after we decided he should play mech vs toss.
On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
I don't think that was immortal being weak, your army were just way smaller than his. sure you had the "perfect" counter units like immortals and archons, he also landed perfect emps. I believe even in hots it wouldn't have beat that mech army
The point of this replay wasn't to showcase either player having perfect play. I also believe that even in HotS I would have lost this game, I don't have any issue admitting that especially vs thestc; however, I think it would have been in a different fashion. In HotS it is okay to engage and disengage with immortals mid map to slow down their push (this is pretty similar to BW PvsMech and you can see me in the middle of the map before his push comes) and let them regenerate shields while running home. However, in LotV you can't really do this due to the fact that immortals do not have the sustainability they used to have. If you use the ability in this current patch the immortal literally becomes useless vs mech after that 3 seconds. I kill like 3 tanks out of his whole army because you can't really dedicate to any attack with such weak units >.>
Honestly, if you cannot tell there is a problem here I don't know what to say @_@;;
I am getting a lost of posters on youtube telling me that you can't play mech at all in HotS so this is clearly the only way to balance the game. I feel like a lot of people are unaware that quite good players still play mech in HotS but it is just map dependent. This change is just silly, and more than likely, has already been reverted in their in-house play development, especially considering they were debating making it an upgrade (??!? this is just >.>...)
On January 13 2015 22:40 SoleSteeler wrote: Didn't watch your viewpoint (yet) but I watched thestc play you a few times on his stream. Really entertaining games. Better than the LOTV Axiom tournament to be honest.
Glad you enjoyed the games. As I mentioned, I definitely have more awesome replays so I'll check out if anyone popular wants to cast some of them. I just made this one to show how weak the immortals are after we decided he should play mech vs toss.
I agree that immortals are weak now, but I HARDLY doubt they are going to give hardened shield back, its an awful design, as I said in my youtube comment, they will most likely give them something that isn't hardened shield, I'm not sure you understand the problem really, and I see why being a really high level player you are very encased in your play, but the change is not a balance change, hardened shield needs to go, then they can give whatever they wan't to the immortal to make it work.
On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
I don't think that was immortal being weak, your army were just way smaller than his. sure you had the "perfect" counter units like immortals and archons, he also landed perfect emps. I believe even in hots it wouldn't have beat that mech army
The point of this replay wasn't to showcase either player having perfect play. I also believe that even in HotS I would have lost this game, I don't have any issue admitting that especially vs thestc; however, I think it would have been in a different fashion. In HotS it is okay to engage and disengage with immortals mid map to slow down their push (this is pretty similar to BW PvsMech and you can see me in the middle of the map before his push comes) and let them regenerate shields while running home. However, in LotV you can't really do this due to the fact that immortals do not have the sustainability they used to have. If you use the ability in this current patch the immortal literally becomes useless vs mech after that 3 seconds. I kill like 3 tanks out of his whole army because you can't really dedicate to any attack with such weak units >.>
Honestly, if you cannot tell there is a problem here I don't know what to say @_@;;
I am getting a lost of posters on youtube telling me that you can't play mech at all in HotS so this is clearly the only way to balance the game. I feel like a lot of people are unaware that quite good players still play mech in HotS but it is just map dependent. This change is just silly, and more than likely, has already been reverted in their in-house play development, especially considering they were debating making it an upgrade (??!? this is just >.>...)
On January 13 2015 22:40 SoleSteeler wrote: Didn't watch your viewpoint (yet) but I watched thestc play you a few times on his stream. Really entertaining games. Better than the LOTV Axiom tournament to be honest.
Glad you enjoyed the games. As I mentioned, I definitely have more awesome replays so I'll check out if anyone popular wants to cast some of them. I just made this one to show how weak the immortals are after we decided he should play mech vs toss.
I agree that immortals are weak now, but I HARDLY doubt they are going to give hardened shield back, its an awful design, as I said in my youtube comment, they will most likely give them something that isn't hardened shield, I'm not sure you understand the problem really, and I see why being a really high level player you are very encased in your play, but the change is not a balance change, hardened shield needs to go, then they can give whatever they wan't to the immortal to make it work.
I usually try to be rather unbiased in my approach to game design and balance and I posted a blog quite some time ago on many things I think, in general, ought to change. I may adjust some of the suggestions I had from back then to the game now, but nonetheless, I generally speaking want the best game from each race's perspective.
In this case, my point of consideration is not that hardened shields is a must, but that if you're going to change a core ability of a unit that lets you fight against a certain style of play(Mech), and also has an incredibly important role in PvZ, then you ought to be adding something of similar, or near similar, value to the unit. They currently have not, and have not yet announced that they will.
Therefore I wanted to make a basic point with the replay: Immortals are bad vs mech. Tempests don't shoot vikings = Mech is overall a lot harder to even engage/build an army to fight.
So, deductively speaking, you've not only reduced two different ways to fight mech, affected the unit in PvZ, but also, given meching players ways to harass and attack while defending. Whether hardened shields are in the final version or not I think it should be clear that immortals will not remain like this current patch.
They are simply bad.
While I have explained this multiple times I have not really seen a reason from you why hardened shields absolutely have to go. I have already stated that many Terran players still go mech and win. It's mainly map dependent, but that does not mean mech is awful by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I'd say lategame mech is incredibly strong and generally speaking Protoss players don't even end up with immortals to fight against it as they move on to an air army, which as I just mentioned, is also now affected.
It is for these reason that I am not really sure where this 'mech is weak' connotation comes from other than from players like avilo and his fans... who... well...yeah...
On January 13 2015 04:58 -Kyo- wrote: Uploaded another video to my youtube. A protoss vs mech between me and thestc. Just my overall ideas on mech, and basically why I think the immortal is god awful now.
I have a few other replays with mech between us so let me know if u guys want to see more. I have one where I even go mass carriers.
I don't think that was immortal being weak, your army were just way smaller than his. sure you had the "perfect" counter units like immortals and archons, he also landed perfect emps. I believe even in hots it wouldn't have beat that mech army
I'm pretty sure the counter to mech in LotV is meant to be carriers.
That one-base PvP vid from earlier was very interesting to me for the disruptor play. Drops are cool, but I'd like to see more videos of Disruptors in straight-up fights like those!
So, it's been said that rushes and tech are both weaker in the LotV build. I thought that perhaps it would be necessary to rollback some nerfs from the past. Recall that gateway, warpgate research, barracks, reaper, among others, all have had their build times increased in past eras before photon overcharge, before the switch to macro maps and before the new economy changes.
Vods are up. Most of the games are pretty bad though as a lot of the players are jus messing around and don't seem to know what the new units do or what all their options are as their race. EG; I think probably the strongest thing terran got int LOTV is actually the lifted seige tank (especially as a rush tactic) and you only really see it used once quite late and ineffectively.
Couple of things to note about LOTV and this tourney. Firstly QXC and TB seem to keep calling things wrong names, mainly the corrosive bile (as bile shot). The name is kind of bad considering what the spell actually does. I think the name should be explosive bile or something along those lines. Also every time it's used, it's used pretty poorly.
2nd, as I mentioned nearly a month ago, tempest seems to be the strongest most overpowered unit so far. The speed, the range, the large HP/shields, and the free ability is just too much as a package. AA units that are made to counter it have a really tough time doing so. It could use a HP reduction and/or nerf to the ability (give it a mana cost, an upgrade, etc).
3rd, at one point QXC tries to theorize what the best counter to mass tempest/protoss air is and says hydra/infestor or something. Which is pretty wrong. I've played some FFAs where I had to deal with this and the best option really seems to be fungal/corrosive bile with whatever corruptor support you have left over in the transition. Hydras are pretty terrible unless you can get them burrowed and ambush the protoss. However, even then the tempest range+hp+movespeed is just so hard to deal with you have to have an overwhelming advantage in supply as well as a positional advantage/flank. Which is very difficult due to terrain abuse and the burst damage output of the tempest (like half your shit dies getting in range to fungal and cast bile etc). And the protoss needs to have to be clumped up at least partially as the corrosive bile is such a small radius. It could possibly use a bonus damage to air units since it's so hard to land on air stuff (which was mentioned by TB since the game is 3D and it's angled and hard to tell even with the little yellow reticle below).
4th, as far as strong builds overall in the ZvP matchup, I think an early expand 2 base all in style of speedling and a couple of ravagers seems to be really strong if drone production stops and nothing but lings are used as reinforcement. I really think the staple build of protoss will be something like oracle into fenixes as it's sort of the safest catch all build that can easily transition into tempest or whatever really.
5th, the sentiment that 12pool works in ZvP is wrong. It never works if the protoss isn't a retard. If you are going Nexus first, you need to wall your ramp or choke. Derp
In one of the games with the Herc, they talk about the ion cannon (which is the attack of the unit). QXC seems to hint at how absurd that sounds seemingly because of the classic C&C building/attack. And then TB idiotically makes a quip about good thing it's not called powerfist as some other game company would sue without realizing that Dustin Browder definitely straight copied that from C&C and is probably some sort of joke because of how much damage their attack does on such a small scale.
PS- Jakatak, I really appreciate the work in the mod and the videos of lotv games, but most of them are pretty terrible players. And you commentary doesn't at least help to make it entertaining. I know you asked on one of your videos what kind of constructive criticism people would have for you, but it's sort of everything. You don't seem to have much of a grasp on high level gameplay or tactics (which is forgivable to a degree since everything is new), your weird voices and bad jokes are obvious filler that have no place, your constant self deprecation is also repulsive since it's just not funny. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's just my opinion. As far as tips, since you seem to lack that enthusiasm in your voice (that others mentioned) and that's something that takes a lot of development to fake or be genuine with, I'd suggest just sticking to an analytical route and cut out anything that detracts from that. Stick to facts and and build orders and watch the minimap more closely even when you already speaking about 'boring' stuff. It all comes off very 'tryhard' and in order to get away with that you just need to update your knowledge or ditch it entirely and go with a super casual casting style where it's totally nonsensical and unserious. This is an example of sort of the kind of casting you are doing when it has that enthusiasm + Show Spoiler +
. It's something in the cadence, inflection, and tone. I'm not really sure how you learn something like that other than to experience it. Maybe pick up a sales job (like shitty telemarketing) where you are forced to learn it or die.
I think casting is a very difficult job, I've never seen a youtube caster or random stream commentator that could in any way live up to people like Artosis and such. I've often wondered about this, because you would think anyone with an engaging personality and skill at public speaking would be at least promising despite a possible lack of game knowledge or technical ability. But these people don't seem to exist, or at least, they don't decide to become SC2 commentators.
On January 16 2015 21:40 Grumbels wrote: I think casting is a very difficult job, I've never seen a youtube caster or random stream commentator that could in any way live up to people like Artosis and such. I've often wondered about this, because you would think anyone with an engaging personality and skill at public speaking would be at least promising despite a possible lack of game knowledge or technical ability. But these people don't seem to exist, or at least, they don't decide to become SC2 commentators.
I don't think it's as difficult as people make it seem. It's just that sc2 players are less likely to be charismatic or having the social and speaking skills along with all the other requirements. Your last sentence kinda sums it up.
Another video from the replays of TheStC vs myself
Still no casts from Husky, I assume he is really busy since he hasn't had any uploads for over a week now. If you want him to help get more views for the video a simple tweet helps a lot
EPT
! I sent him 3 replays but he hasn't really moved on any of them yet. I'm waiting to see if he decides to cast any, but if not then I'll go ahead and do some more~
