On December 21 2014 04:10 MarlieChurphy wrote: -Kyo-, well IIrc, i said I think that build is good, just bad execution/still need to work on the fine details/timings.
Whole game I had like 1k gas, could have had like 8 lurkers to defend my 3rd.
Also said that I think pheonix is gonna be a mainstay as they seem to be the best counter to ravagers, lurkers, corruptors etc in the mid game.+ tons of map control and scouting, as well as overlord checking. I could never get my lurkers where they needed to be with your fenix everywhere, lost like the initial 5 or so on the transition even though I burrowed immediately upon seeing the fenix, even ahead of time before you even saw the lurkers at some points.
Would be interesting to see how massing corruptors and lings fares against massed fenix with range and whatever other protoss ground they get.
perhaps fenix need a nerf or lurker needs a buff in that regard? Something to do with their channeling time/burrowing time. Or maybe change lurker armor type/unit type?
I think lurkers are quite strong honestly. They were destroying gateway units pretty hard. Pheonix do not need a nerf otherwise they'd be horrible vs muta. I think it's just more of an execution thing. In fact, I could honestly see lurker pushes being incredibly hard to hold. It's definitely something interesting I hope to have other people test out.
On December 21 2014 04:10 MarlieChurphy wrote: -Kyo-, well IIrc, i said I think that build is good, just bad execution/still need to work on the fine details/timings.
Whole game I had like 1k gas, could have had like 8 lurkers to defend my 3rd.
Also said that I think pheonix is gonna be a mainstay as they seem to be the best counter to ravagers, lurkers, corruptors etc in the mid game.+ tons of map control and scouting, as well as overlord checking. I could never get my lurkers where they needed to be with your fenix everywhere, lost like the initial 5 or so on the transition even though I burrowed immediately upon seeing the fenix, even ahead of time before you even saw the lurkers at some points.
Would be interesting to see how massing corruptors and lings fares against massed fenix with range and whatever other protoss ground they get.
perhaps fenix need a nerf or lurker needs a buff in that regard? Something to do with their channeling time/burrowing time. Or maybe change lurker armor type/unit type?
I think lurkers are quite strong honestly. They were destroying gateway units pretty hard. Pheonix do not need a nerf otherwise they'd be horrible vs muta. I think it's just more of an execution thing. In fact, I could honestly see lurker pushes being incredibly hard to hold. It's definitely something interesting I hope to have other people test out.
A nerf in the channelling ability, or mana cost etc. Nothing to do with muta. Just so they can't kill heavy costed armor units so easily. Wether that be making the graviton cost more, or take a bit longer to cast, or not allow to grab lurkers that already began burrowing, or have fenix do less damage to certain unit types so it takes longer, or requires more fenix or nearby units.
On December 21 2014 04:10 MarlieChurphy wrote: -Kyo-, well IIrc, i said I think that build is good, just bad execution/still need to work on the fine details/timings.
Whole game I had like 1k gas, could have had like 8 lurkers to defend my 3rd.
Also said that I think pheonix is gonna be a mainstay as they seem to be the best counter to ravagers, lurkers, corruptors etc in the mid game.+ tons of map control and scouting, as well as overlord checking. I could never get my lurkers where they needed to be with your fenix everywhere, lost like the initial 5 or so on the transition even though I burrowed immediately upon seeing the fenix, even ahead of time before you even saw the lurkers at some points.
Would be interesting to see how massing corruptors and lings fares against massed fenix with range and whatever other protoss ground they get.
perhaps fenix need a nerf or lurker needs a buff in that regard? Something to do with their channeling time/burrowing time. Or maybe change lurker armor type/unit type?
I think lurkers are quite strong honestly. They were destroying gateway units pretty hard. Pheonix do not need a nerf otherwise they'd be horrible vs muta. I think it's just more of an execution thing. In fact, I could honestly see lurker pushes being incredibly hard to hold. It's definitely something interesting I hope to have other people test out.
A nerf in the channelling ability, or mana cost etc. Nothing to do with muta. Just so they can't kill heavy costed armor units so easily.
If you invest into that many phx they definitely should be able to kill a few lurkers. They do not need to be nerfed.
And they have other functions besides denying lurkers.
The point I'm making is that if someone is going lurkers, I don't really think they will have the resources/investment to have AA nearby to deal with the fenix as well. (ling/lurker) so it sort of just hard counters, assuming the fenix user has good map control with them.
It needs more testing, and I could be completely wrong, just saying it's something to note.
You didn't have detection for a long time, and yet I couldn't really do anything with lurkers.
On December 21 2014 10:58 MarlieChurphy wrote: How many did you make though, like 6-8 ?
And they have other functions besides denying lurkers.
The point I'm making is that if someone is going lurkers, I don't really think they will have the resources/investment to have AA nearby to deal with the fenix as well. (ling/lurker) so it sort of just hard counters, assuming the fenix user has good map control with them.
It needs more testing, and I could be completely wrong, just saying it's something to note.
You didn't have detection for a long time, and yet I couldn't really do anything with lurkers.
You will have hydras.... I didn't make detection because I was so far ahead it didn't really matter... @_@;;
Phx are not a hard counter to lurkers. As I stated earlier it is most certainly an execution problem rather than lotv problem.
Random question: is it possible / allowed for one to add changes to the fan-made mod? I'm not affiliated with the creators in any way, but I'd like to let some players experiment with a mod I've created combined with these maps.
I know they're available under the arcade menu, but if they were in the normal maps section, we could just select "play with mod" and combine the two...
I don't think you can combine two extension mods in the game because of possible conflicts and I'm pretty sure the extension mod files are locked by blizzard to prevent piracy.
While I refuse to steal their work, I'd like to have the opportunity for people to play with the known LotV changes and some proposed ones.
*shrug*
Is there a canonical way of doing this and I'm missing it or am I just out of luck short of getting direct permission and files form the creators?
btw, something that is overlooked here, It takes like 4 storms to kill a lurker. And since lurkers seem to unburrow and be able to move away faster than in BW, they are really elusive versus HT.
As far as what disruptors do, I think they do splash all ground units, it's just common that they both have active invulnerability when they explode so they don't die/get damaged.
As far as vs the blink stalker build vs disruptors, did you try making 1 less gate and forgee/canon leap frog out towards your natural? Seems like it could be possible with 2-3 canons maybe?
You final thoughts about the oracle change not being a good option vs banshee or DT is actually a good change though.
Previously it just takes the role of the observer entirely. And it has more hp, can move faster, and can also serve as a harassment or scouting unit. This is a bad overlap, as it allows certain builds to be nearly impervious at no extra cost in tech to be safe to other specific builds.
If that were fair, why not give all overlords detection like bw again then? Zerg needs better detection options too.
On December 24 2014 08:21 MarlieChurphy wrote: Thanks for vids kyo, keep it up.
As far as what disruptors, I think they do splash all ground units, it's just common that they both have active invulnerability when they explode so they don't die/get damaged.
I think it should be same as Widow Mines. And it is now. Widow mines can damage other terran units, but can't damage other widow mines.
On December 24 2014 08:21 MarlieChurphy wrote: Thanks for vids kyo, keep it up.
As far as what disruptors, I think they do splash all ground units, it's just common that they both have active invulnerability when they explode so they don't die/get damaged.
I think it should be same as Widow Mines. And it is now. Widow mines can damage other terran units, but can't damage other widow mines.
I made a post about this before: if disruptors both activate at the same time they shouldn't damage each other since both are invulnerable (if necessary extend the invulnerability effect by a few frames), but if you carelessly activate a single disruptor in the middle of a group of disruptors then why shouldn't all of them die? You are perfectly capable of saving them after all, you can always activate the invulnerability on the other ones, simply split your units or not make such a mistake in the first place. Disruptors are different from widow mines, they already have some way to get immunity, while widow mines would suffer from the baneling effect where if one of them blows up they will kill all other widow mines.
(for reference, when I last tested it in the mod they didn't damage each other period)
You final thoughts about the oracle change not being a good option vs banshee or DT is actually a good change though.
Previously it just takes the role of the observer entirely. And it has more hp, can move faster, and can also serve as a harassment or scouting unit. This is a bad overlap, as it allows certain builds to be nearly impervious at no extra cost in tech to be safe to other specific builds.
If that were fair, why not give all overlords detection like bw again then? Zerg needs better detection options too.
Not to be too overly critical but your analysis here is very off. The reason it was acceptable in HotS was that it gave you a different way to play the MUs and they have become very main stream openers off of this. To be restricted to robotics tech for permanent detection as a protoss player is quite terrible. There is no protoss build since mid 2013 where you get a forge early enough to defend against Banshee with cloak now. Terrans have scans AND turrets which are a part of all reasonable builds. Zergs have Overseers and spore which are a part of all reasonable builds. If you open SG and something else, which is very understandable in PvP or PvT -- as we are the tech and attack race-- and then simply die because someone makes cloaked units it is most certainly NOT the fact that the build is bad but rather just an unnecessary nerf to a unit.
I am under the impression most all other pro players will agree with this. I am not sure how else they can go about keeping both of these options unless they want to limit openers from Toss players, which may be what they're attempting to do idk?
The oracle as it was before played a very important role in defending against such attacks and now when they buff things like Banshee so that they start with cloak it only seems reasonable that if you want a Pheonix which kills air you should simultaneously be able to make Oracles to help defend against such a push. It is an investment of 2 units vs 1 unit. Now, that one unit has been buffed with something that used to be an upgrade. Yet the defending player gets nerfed. This is not how it should be.
So, in short, the effective cost of a banshee is much lower than what protoss must build to defend against them. That's just bad all around.
Just in case people buy into what was stated above... No one permanently uses Oracles for detection in any match ups. It's a short temporary fix for transitioning as are turrets and spores. If we're going to accurately discuss implications of the direction their changes are going in please do not post things that may lead other readers to think about the game incorrectly. @_@;;
and edit: disruptors do not hit each other. I do not think they should either. I do think they may need to have their CD nerfed to 45 seconds however. Or something of the sort. 30 seconds might still feel a little too short when you have 5 of them.
You final thoughts about the oracle change not being a good option vs banshee or DT is actually a good change though.
Previously it just takes the role of the observer entirely. And it has more hp, can move faster, and can also serve as a harassment or scouting unit. This is a bad overlap, as it allows certain builds to be nearly impervious at no extra cost in tech to be safe to other specific builds.
If that were fair, why not give all overlords detection like bw again then? Zerg needs better detection options too.
Not to be too overly critical but your analysis here is very off. The reason it was acceptable in HotS was that it gave you a different way to play the MUs and they have become very main stream openers off of this. To be restricted to robotics tech for permanent detection as a protoss player is quite terrible. There is no protoss build since mid 2013 where you get a forge early enough to defend against Banshee with cloak now. Terrans have scans AND turrets which are a part of all reasonable builds. Zergs have Overseers and spore which are a part of all reasonable builds. If you open SG and something else, which is very understandable in PvP or PvT -- as we are the tech and attack race-- and then simply die because someone makes cloaked units it is most certainly NOT the fact that the build is bad but rather just an unnecessary nerf to a unit.
I am under the impression most all other pro players will agree with this. I am not sure how else they can go about keeping both of these options unless they want to limit openers from Toss players, which may be what they're attempting to do idk?
The oracle as it was before played a very important role in defending against such attacks and now when they buff things like Banshee so that they start with cloak it only seems reasonable that if you want a Pheonix which kills air you should simultaneously be able to make Oracles to help defend against such a push. It is an investment of 2 units vs 1 unit. Now, that one unit has been buffed with something that used to be an upgrade. Yet the defending player gets nerfed. This is not how it should be.
So, in short, the effective cost of a banshee is much lower than what protoss must build to defend against them. That's just bad all around.
Just in case people buy into what was stated above... No one permanently uses Oracles for detection in any match ups. It's a short temporary fix for transitioning as are turrets and spores. If we're going to accurately discuss implications of the direction their changes are going in please do not post things that may lead other readers to think about the game incorrectly. @_@;;
and edit: disruptors do not hit each other. I do not think they should either. I do think they may need to have their CD nerfed to 45 seconds however. Or something of the sort. 30 seconds might still feel a little too short when you have 5 of them.
you can just make a sentry, hallucinate a pheonix and scout that he is going banshee. From there, you either drop a robotic if you have the time, or if you're in a hurry, you get a quick forge.
As simple as that. You have really no excuse to die from cloaked unit apart from being too greedy with your gas. In that case, you are just taking a gamble and sometime it will pay off (in the form of an oracle wiping a whole mineral line because of it arriving earlier) and sometimes it will backfire
EPT
