EPT[Patch 7.8] Xayah & Rakan General Discussion - Page 3
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Sent.
Poland9296 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On April 29 2017 02:46 cLutZ wrote: Yea, IDK why they decided they needed an anti-sustained AP item. That is like...2 characters? The way it's worded it should work vs any kind of dot or multi hit ability. Off the top of my head: DFT Liandry Sunfire Cape Any magic damage on-hit (Wits' End, Varus, Kayle etc etc) Rumble Singed Cass everything not ult Swain dots+ult Ryze Katarina ult + passives whatever might have been reset As worded it's far from just being a FU Ryze/Cass/Karthus item. Heck it should work vs Baron's magic damage too. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4150 Posts
Will this make the skill cap in low elo bigger, games more stompy and more uncontrolable from trying to carry position, coz someone will have 1 brain cell and do the right build and build order? Yes, it will xD | ||
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lgd dragoon noctis
13 Posts
On April 20 2017 09:14 Jek wrote: Rakan is so much fun to play. He's sorta boring early, but once you get a few points into W, E and some random CDR he goes full "fun mode activated!". Their buffs when on the same team are so stupid. I get they are a couple and all but come on Riot that's just lazy... Rakan is insanely fun to play but I disagree about the combined power being problematic. I do think they are strong together but for example I was watching MSI with a thresh/jinx combo tearing it up and I was realizing how busted that pair is when they get going since Thresh basically provides everything Jinx doesn't have, even though the inherent synergy we all know with Thresh is Kalista. Similarly, while Rakan is super strong with Xayah, I don't think he actually compliments her *so much* and personally I get more scared of Rakan + Lucian or Rakan + Ashe/Cait then I do Rakan + Xayah in ranked at the moment. Just my opinion. Besides I think a nerf will come through for their synergy, maybe cutting the length of his dash or their damage a bit. I also am just loving the dynamic of oftentimes one team gets Xayah or one team gets Rakan in champ select if they aren't banned out. It's new. | ||
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lgd dragoon noctis
13 Posts
On April 29 2017 05:48 Jek wrote: The way it's worded it should work vs any kind of dot or multi hit ability. Off the top of my head: DFT Liandry Sunfire Cape Any magic damage on-hit (Wits' End, Varus, Kayle etc etc) Rumble Singed Cass everything not ult Swain dots+ult Ryze Katarina ult + passives whatever might have been reset As worded it's far from just being a FU Ryze/Cass/Karthus item. Heck it should work vs Baron's magic damage too. Wait, wouldn't this also fuck over Teemo? | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On April 29 2017 11:38 lgd dragoon noctis wrote: Wait, wouldn't this also fuck over Teemo? Fuck that yordle with a pointy stick. But yeah, if it works like I think it does, RIP Teemo poison damage. | ||
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lgd dragoon noctis
13 Posts
On April 29 2017 12:03 Amui wrote: Fuck that yordle with a pointy stick. But yeah, if it works like I think it does, RIP Teemo poison damage. I mean, yes, Fuck Teemo, but the way Riot works is they will find some super-heinous way to make him get back to a near-50% win rate so that means some compensation will come | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On April 29 2017 11:36 lgd dragoon noctis wrote: Rakan is insanely fun to play but I disagree about the combined power being problematic. I do think they are strong together but for example I was watching MSI with a thresh/jinx combo tearing it up and I was realizing how busted that pair is when they get going since Thresh basically provides everything Jinx doesn't have, even though the inherent synergy we all know with Thresh is Kalista. Similarly, while Rakan is super strong with Xayah, I don't think he actually compliments her *so much* and personally I get more scared of Rakan + Lucian or Rakan + Ashe/Cait then I do Rakan + Xayah in ranked at the moment. Just my opinion. Besides I think a nerf will come through for their synergy, maybe cutting the length of his dash or their damage a bit. I also am just loving the dynamic of oftentimes one team gets Xayah or one team gets Rakan in champ select if they aren't banned out. It's new. It's not so much that I think their "love buff" or whatever is too strong. It's that it is an incredible lazy way to go about it. Thresh/Kalista is a great example of how to do it right, their kit compliment each other incredible well, they dont just randomly get some bigger numbers. I cannot help but think that part of the design process went something like: Designer 1: We want them to be stronger together! Designer 2: Cool! Any ideas? Designer 1: No. Designer 2: Hmm. We could consider looking into their lore and f a n t a s y to see if we can improve their..... Designer 1: I see. But we must remember s t r a t e g i c d e c i s i o n s and.... <buzzwords and discussion went on for hours> Intern 1: Sup aye jsut attededed sum numberz to deir skelz wen dey r 2gteher lul Designer 1: .... Well that's one way... Designer 2: With that solved lets go grab lunch. Intern 2: Seriously? Focusing on the champions gameplay, strength or weakness and look for synergies between the champions is many times more interesting than just increasing numbers somewhere in the code. Thresh/Kalista, Thresh/Immobile ADC, Lulu/Hyper carry are great examples. On April 29 2017 16:03 phyvo wrote: I keep up with the PBE patches on surrender@20 which usually includes Rioter commentary on the changes. In this case Riot specifically said that adaptive helm doesn't screw over DoTs. My guess is that it does screw over soldiers/turrets/plants though. IDK what category something like Anivia ultimate falls into. Ah. Thank God. they should mention the effect not destroying DoTs in the description ala how they explain Spellvamp with AoE. When I first saw the item I thought it'd basically be a goodbye to a ton of champions in competitive and Spirit Visage for that matter. I'm so interested in the Relic Shield quest. Would love to see if it's actually strong enough for it to be a legit buy on the ADC, would open up a lot of options in botlane. Also looking forward to see just how big Zac can be with the +100% health active on Gargoyle Stoneplate, Steraks, Lulu and Iron pot. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9296 Posts
Xayah 48,2% (13th); 47.99% 15 / 18 Rakan 44,4% (29th); 44.84% 29 / 30 I still think Rakan is poorly designed and will continue to have shitty winrates until Riot buffs him into viability for a few patches and then realizes he needs to be Aatroxed. Didn't want to judge Xayah earlier but now I think she's strong and should dominate the rift if (when) Riot decides to nerf botrk. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4150 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 29 2017 22:45 Jek wrote: It's not so much that I think their "love buff" or whatever is too strong. It's that it is an incredible lazy way to go about it. Thresh/Kalista is a great example of how to do it right, their kit compliment each other incredible well, they dont just randomly get some bigger numbers. I cannot help but think that part of the design process went something like: Designer 1: We want them to be stronger together! Designer 2: Cool! Any ideas? Designer 1: No. Designer 2: Hmm. We could consider looking into their lore and f a n t a s y to see if we can improve their..... Designer 1: I see. But we must remember s t r a t e g i c d e c i s i o n s and.... <buzzwords and discussion went on for hours> Intern 1: Sup aye jsut attededed sum numberz to deir skelz wen dey r 2gteher lul Designer 1: .... Well that's one way... Designer 2: With that solved lets go grab lunch. Intern 2: Seriously? Focusing on the champions gameplay, strength or weakness and look for synergies between the champions is many times more interesting than just increasing numbers somewhere in the code. Thresh/Kalista, Thresh/Immobile ADC, Lulu/Hyper carry are great examples. It's amazing how you can make things sound stupid when you get to make up quotes. Here's my interpretation of what you said: B-b-b-but I don't like what they did wahh wahh wahh because im dum and also smell bad! See how easy that is? In seriousness, I get that from one perspective it's inelegant. But a) there don't exist any other champions in the game that have hard-coded synergy. So it is in fact interesting to have one pair of champions be different in that regard, particularly when there are thematic, lore-related, and other game-extraneous reasons for that interaction. Your argument would have more validity if you're playing a game with dozens of such inelegant interactions. And b), the Xayah/Rakan synergy unlocks what a logician would describe as common knowledge synergy. Lucian/Braum is a synergy but it's not a game-defined synergy. There are people learning the game who don't realize this and have yet to learn it for themselves. Whereas Xayah/Rakan is a stronger form of common knowledge synergy: if you know anything about the champion, then you know it has that built-in mechanic with another champion. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On April 30 2017 05:55 Sent. wrote: I checked the winrates of Xayah and Rakan on op.gg (euw) and champion.gg and here's what I found: Xayah 48,2% (13th); 47.99% 15 / 18 Rakan 44,4% (29th); 44.84% 29 / 30 I still think Rakan is poorly designed and will continue to have shitty winrates until Riot buffs him into viability for a few patches and then realizes he needs to be Aatroxed. Didn't want to judge Xayah earlier but now I think she's strong and should dominate the rift if (when) Riot decides to nerf botrk. Hm I feel like Rakan is stronger than Xayah, Xayah doesn't seem great to me so far but the support is consistently irritating. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On April 30 2017 23:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: It's amazing how you can make things sound stupid when you get to make up quotes. Here's my interpretation of what you said: See how easy that is? In seriousness, I get that from one perspective it's inelegant. But a) there don't exist any other champions in the game that have hard-coded synergy. So it is in fact interesting to have one pair of champions be different in that regard, particularly when there are thematic, lore-related, and other game-extraneous reasons for that interaction. Your argument would have more validity if you're playing a game with dozens of such inelegant interactions. And b), the Xayah/Rakan synergy unlocks what a logician would describe as common knowledge synergy. Lucian/Braum is a synergy but it's not a game-defined synergy. There are people learning the game who don't realize this and have yet to learn it for themselves. Whereas Xayah/Rakan is a stronger form of common knowledge synergy: if you know anything about the champion, then you know it has that built-in mechanic with another champion. The real funny part is that Xayah/Rakan have literally 0 synergy kit wise. Xayah is just stupid. Isn't op but her e damage is incredibly difficult to guess right. They need to make it scale less with multiple feathers and compensate somewhere else considering how fucking easy it is to land 3. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On April 30 2017 23:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: It's amazing how you can make things sound stupid when you get to make up quotes. Here's my interpretation of what you said: See how easy that is? In seriousness, I get that from one perspective it's inelegant. But a) there don't exist any other champions in the game that have hard-coded synergy. So it is in fact interesting to have one pair of champions be different in that regard, particularly when there are thematic, lore-related, and other game-extraneous reasons for that interaction. Your argument would have more validity if you're playing a game with dozens of such inelegant interactions. And b), the Xayah/Rakan synergy unlocks what a logician would describe as common knowledge synergy. Lucian/Braum is a synergy but it's not a game-defined synergy. There are people learning the game who don't realize this and have yet to learn it for themselves. Whereas Xayah/Rakan is a stronger form of common knowledge synergy: if you know anything about the champion, then you know it has that built-in mechanic with another champion. Since League had no such lazy design before is exactly why just randomly having bigger numbers is inelegant design. Their timed recall is interesting, their cute emotes and VA when together is honestly all they would need to solidify them as lovers from a lore-wise perspective. Aside from being lazy design it adds a potential hard issue with balancing the champions there's no reason to force upon youself. If they are strong enough to pick without the other they are likely too strong together, if they are not strong enough to pick without the other they are likely underpowered. In which case there's only 3 options for the pair to be balanced: a) Just accept they are weak without the other. b) Their "pair buff" has to be nerfed. c) One of them has to be weak on it's own to balance them when together. - Forcing a potential balance issue for no reason other than flair is just silly. Their ability to chain their CC is good design, his ability to easily help her strong backwards kiting is good design. I personally dont believe hard-coded synergy is helpful for new players in any long-term situation. Combat situations in the game (before the pair) has been all about indirect champion synergies (or lack of) and something you need to learn if you want to understand the game. Discovering synergies is part of the learning process of any game and a positive experience when you stumble across something "new", realizing Yasuo is strong(er) if you have something that can easily trigger his ult is more satisfying than just having higher numbers because you just so happen to have one specific champion on your team. I totally get why some (probably most) might consider it an interesting take on champion interaction, it is after all unique to them. I just find it's not worth to break the design space up until now and introduce potential balance issues for no reason other than flair. That being said I must concede that their recall interaction is cool. It's an active choice that can be very strong given the right situations, "we might get ganked soonish so I'll start recall channels whenever I can get away with it" or just for the few seconds you can shave off when Xayah is clearing a wave for a back. Rakan having a shield from his passive makes this even cooler since you have to break it before you can interupt the recall with just damage. I've always been a firm believer of a strict Saint-Exupery design philosophy in which the unnecessary hard-coded synergy of Rakan/Xayah is bad design and shouldn't exist. Dont get me started on Riven...  | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On May 01 2017 03:09 Fildun wrote: Rakan seems really good, both his knockup and ult are strong and the jump is always useful, so I don't understand why he has such a low winrate. I wouldn't be surprised if it's mostly because of a lot of non support mains are playing him since he's so new. He has some absolutely horrible match ups too. | ||
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