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On January 02 2016 01:17 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2016 21:40 Prog wrote:
Sister teams are just terrible from a spectator point of view. You can't create hype around Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2. It just does not make for a good story. And esports as a business is first and foremost entertainment, so the story is more important than anything else. Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 00:15 Prog wrote:
For bulding a story of two teams playing against each other you generally want to target at least three different audiences: Fans of team 1, fans of team 2 and neutral spectators. Whenever you have two sister teams play each other, you naturally get a lot of overlap between the first 2 target audiences. Moreover, you also create a situation in which neutral specators might think that nothing is on the line, because the team wins anyway. Sure, if you are heavily invested into the league scene you see differences that give you a sense that they are not the same team. However, if you are not that involved, you likely won't be pulled into viewing the event if it is advertised as "Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2". I believe that OGN/Riot thinks about storylines with the casual viewer in mind. Most people on this site would watch the games regardless what the teams are called, because we know the players and we love to watch the game. But there are lots of people for whom it makes a difference if they perceive a game as important. It is OGN's/Riot's job to make the games feel important. And it is easier to do so if both teams are not obvious sister teams.
On a side note: It is not an accident that two sister teams cannot both get into the highest league in traditional sports (you find something very similar to sister teams in football (soccer) everywhere in europe). I agree, I could not care less about Samsung White vs. Samsung Blue in 2014 and all the storylines mentioned just sounded to me like (failed) desperate attempts to keep the matchup interesting.
Do you watch league for quality games or for personalities and storylines? Sounds to me like you like the latter hence why you have such a reaction. I find it hard to believe that anyone that likes watching league gameplay wouldn't have cared about the White vs Blue games.
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On January 02 2016 01:03 Prog wrote:
I think you understate the difference between teams situated in the same city and sister-teams. The former have nothing in common except their location, whereas sister teams are actually a single organisation. Moreover, the sister-teams in the history of league could be identified as being part of the same organisation with a single look at their names. Actually, two inter-city teams usually do their best to be distinguished from each other, whereas sister-teams in league did not do that.
my point is that to a casual fan, that is meaningless. they aren't going to look up the history of these teams and what they have in common. all they will see is the team names being similar, perhaps ask someone more knowledgeable if they share the same sponsor or whatever, then hope for a good game.
what do you mean by trying their best to be distinguished from each other? as someone who lives in NY with the yankees/mets, giants/jets, islanders/rangers, etc. I never really felt that the organizations 'tried' to distinguish themselves. it just happens. same with how blue/white were very different in playstyle without the organization trying to do so on purpose. different teams, different identity.
the state as a whole usually has a 'fuck the other team' mentality when we're against each other but against anyone else it's 'go new york!'. I imagine its similar for the samsung teams.
also we keep having this imaginary casual fan that hates samsung vs samsung matchups but was such a fan actually anywhere near the majority? I don't think I've seen any such thing even on reddit.
On January 02 2016 01:17 Fusilero wrote:
It can be argued that sister teams create a different kind of hype, like the blue/white rivalry was arguably defined by the fact that they were sister teams. If it was like MVP Blue v Samsung White it could have been less of a big deal. Instead Blue v White was seen as a contest of who is the superior Samsung team. Like remember after winter Dade got moved to blue and everyone was shitting on him because it was seen as a demotion, he was the weak link of Samsung White that got embarrassed at worlds and by Faker. Then he was moved to Blue and when Blue beat White in Spring it was through the roof hype since it was seen as the supposed B-team of Samsung that Dade was demoted to surpassing the A-team.
But inversely it can be argued that's a byproduct of the two Samsungs being the two strongest teams and it is important to remember that perspectives here and on /r/lol are skewed we are the hardcore that appreciate Korean league. Like insult reddit if you want, by virtue of them also following LPL/LCK they also sit on the hardcore side of the viewership. I understand if the people that like, play a few normals with friends then only watch Fnatic and TSM games would probably fail to understand the distinguishing factors between sister teams and they account for the majority of viewership. I understand both sides of the argument but I firmly sit on the side of pro-sister teams on the basis that it provides a better environment for the players (See Anarchy going full orphans for a year when they could have been say, KT Bullets)
I think those type of fans wouldn't care for LCK anyways lol.
when I got a casual friend into league he loved LCK and the samsung matches. He particularly liked White, I preferred Blue. but he couldn't give a shit about the 'el classico's' like TSM vs CLG and was wondering why the audience was hyped for 2 bad teams. and as a casual fan who probably can't even tell accurately who is bad or not (though he wasn't wrong in this guess) its natural as someone who doesn't watch NALCS as much. same with casual NALCS viewers' reactions towards LCK.
I have yet to see a 'casual fan' who actually watches LCK more than once and dislikes sister teams.
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A casual fan wouldn't be watching Korea play anyway. They'd only be tuning in for the TSM/CLG/C9 games and maybe Fnatic.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On January 02 2016 01:23 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 01:17 Zato-1 wrote:On January 01 2016 21:40 Prog wrote:
Sister teams are just terrible from a spectator point of view. You can't create hype around Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2. It just does not make for a good story. And esports as a business is first and foremost entertainment, so the story is more important than anything else. On January 02 2016 00:15 Prog wrote:
For bulding a story of two teams playing against each other you generally want to target at least three different audiences: Fans of team 1, fans of team 2 and neutral spectators. Whenever you have two sister teams play each other, you naturally get a lot of overlap between the first 2 target audiences. Moreover, you also create a situation in which neutral specators might think that nothing is on the line, because the team wins anyway. Sure, if you are heavily invested into the league scene you see differences that give you a sense that they are not the same team. However, if you are not that involved, you likely won't be pulled into viewing the event if it is advertised as "Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2". I believe that OGN/Riot thinks about storylines with the casual viewer in mind. Most people on this site would watch the games regardless what the teams are called, because we know the players and we love to watch the game. But there are lots of people for whom it makes a difference if they perceive a game as important. It is OGN's/Riot's job to make the games feel important. And it is easier to do so if both teams are not obvious sister teams.
On a side note: It is not an accident that two sister teams cannot both get into the highest league in traditional sports (you find something very similar to sister teams in football (soccer) everywhere in europe). I agree, I could not care less about Samsung White vs. Samsung Blue in 2014 and all the storylines mentioned just sounded to me like (failed) desperate attempts to keep the matchup interesting. Do you watch league for quality games or for personalities and storylines? Sounds to me like you like the latter hence why you have such a reaction. I find it hard to believe that anyone that likes watching league gameplay wouldn't have cared about the White vs Blue games.
To be fair, gameplay wise blue v white wasn't always that great. In Spring white failed an MF prick repeatedly in a Yasuo favoured meta, in Summer Pawn fucking tilted and worlds I don't even know. The hype was interesting but in execution it mostly came down to White stubbornly trying to resist Blue's grasp of the meta until worlds where the roles were reversed. It was interesting from the perspective of seeing how Blue had perfected and understood the meta at the time they weren't brilliant games.
I don't particularly like the 10 man roster thing either because either it's a bunch of shit players that won't start so why even bother or if the players are good then we're deprived of seeing great players all the time. Like while it was dank to meme about easyhoon starting over faker he should have been playing every game on another team. Like if I end up never seeing Dardoch because he sits on the bench behind IWD all the time I'd be pretty sad
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Edit: wrong quote, carry on
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To explain inter-city teams distinguishing themselves: I obviously have no idea how it is in New York, but in all the European cities I've lived in the football teams at least use different colour schemes. In comparison: Samsung White and Samsung Blue used the very same jerseys. Even in Worlds semifinals.
Also there are Korean casual viewers, so "I think those type of fans wouldn't care for LCK anyways lol" misses the mark.
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On January 02 2016 01:23 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 01:17 Zato-1 wrote:On January 01 2016 21:40 Prog wrote:
Sister teams are just terrible from a spectator point of view. You can't create hype around Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2. It just does not make for a good story. And esports as a business is first and foremost entertainment, so the story is more important than anything else. On January 02 2016 00:15 Prog wrote:
For bulding a story of two teams playing against each other you generally want to target at least three different audiences: Fans of team 1, fans of team 2 and neutral spectators. Whenever you have two sister teams play each other, you naturally get a lot of overlap between the first 2 target audiences. Moreover, you also create a situation in which neutral specators might think that nothing is on the line, because the team wins anyway. Sure, if you are heavily invested into the league scene you see differences that give you a sense that they are not the same team. However, if you are not that involved, you likely won't be pulled into viewing the event if it is advertised as "Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2". I believe that OGN/Riot thinks about storylines with the casual viewer in mind. Most people on this site would watch the games regardless what the teams are called, because we know the players and we love to watch the game. But there are lots of people for whom it makes a difference if they perceive a game as important. It is OGN's/Riot's job to make the games feel important. And it is easier to do so if both teams are not obvious sister teams.
On a side note: It is not an accident that two sister teams cannot both get into the highest league in traditional sports (you find something very similar to sister teams in football (soccer) everywhere in europe). I agree, I could not care less about Samsung White vs. Samsung Blue in 2014 and all the storylines mentioned just sounded to me like (failed) desperate attempts to keep the matchup interesting. Do you watch league for quality games or for personalities and storylines? Sounds to me like you like the latter hence why you have such a reaction. I find it hard to believe that anyone that likes watching league gameplay wouldn't have cared about the White vs Blue games.
Implying that you can either watch quality Korean games or shitty NA/EU games with personalities and storylines? As far as I'm concerned, NA and EU LCS are also quality games, just not as high quality as KR but more than making up for it with recognizable brands, personalities and storylines. So yes, as a viewer of NA and sometimes EU, Samsung White and Samsung Blue were basically interchangeable to me.
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On January 02 2016 01:42 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 01:23 Numy wrote:On January 02 2016 01:17 Zato-1 wrote:On January 01 2016 21:40 Prog wrote:
Sister teams are just terrible from a spectator point of view. You can't create hype around Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2. It just does not make for a good story. And esports as a business is first and foremost entertainment, so the story is more important than anything else. On January 02 2016 00:15 Prog wrote:
For bulding a story of two teams playing against each other you generally want to target at least three different audiences: Fans of team 1, fans of team 2 and neutral spectators. Whenever you have two sister teams play each other, you naturally get a lot of overlap between the first 2 target audiences. Moreover, you also create a situation in which neutral specators might think that nothing is on the line, because the team wins anyway. Sure, if you are heavily invested into the league scene you see differences that give you a sense that they are not the same team. However, if you are not that involved, you likely won't be pulled into viewing the event if it is advertised as "Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2". I believe that OGN/Riot thinks about storylines with the casual viewer in mind. Most people on this site would watch the games regardless what the teams are called, because we know the players and we love to watch the game. But there are lots of people for whom it makes a difference if they perceive a game as important. It is OGN's/Riot's job to make the games feel important. And it is easier to do so if both teams are not obvious sister teams.
On a side note: It is not an accident that two sister teams cannot both get into the highest league in traditional sports (you find something very similar to sister teams in football (soccer) everywhere in europe). I agree, I could not care less about Samsung White vs. Samsung Blue in 2014 and all the storylines mentioned just sounded to me like (failed) desperate attempts to keep the matchup interesting. Do you watch league for quality games or for personalities and storylines? Sounds to me like you like the latter hence why you have such a reaction. I find it hard to believe that anyone that likes watching league gameplay wouldn't have cared about the White vs Blue games. Implying that you can either watch quality Korean games or shitty NA/EU games with personalities and storylines? As far as I'm concerned, NA and EU LCS are also quality games, just not as high quality as KR but more than making up for it with recognizable brands, personalities and storylines. So yes, as a viewer of NA and sometimes EU, Samsung White and Samsung Blue were basically interchangeable to me.
I wasn't implying that at all but ok.
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On January 02 2016 01:41 Prog wrote:
To explain inter-city teams distinguishing themselves: I obviously have no idea how it is in New York, but in all the European cities I've lived in the football teams at least use different colour schemes. In comparison: Samsung White and Samsung Blue used the very same jerseys. Even in Worlds semifinals.
Also there are Korean casual viewers, so "I think those type of fans wouldn't care for LCK anyways lol" misses the mark.
korean casual viewers don't care about samsung vs samsung except for the fangirls that are sad that watch or flame isn't playing. and you can never satisfy them unless you rig watch to be world champion. not like they aren't used to chaebols dominating everything already. what more is an extra team in some video game? if they cared, korean baseball would be dead already with samsung dominating it for like a decade now? I don't even know.
if you reaaally want to get technical, pretty much every organization branches back up to like a few huge chaebols that are all related l0l so in korea everything is already owned by 'sister teams'
also for jerseys ehh
in traditional sports you have to have different jerseys to differentiate them on the field, can't help that.
but yeah I do think they should at least get different jerseys it just looks dumb when they share jerseys especially in the same match.
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I agree, I do think that it's dumb. But I think that's a separate issue that can be solved with "teams must have different logos/jerseys" than outright banning sister teams.
edit: but then again my body would not be ready for the organizations trolling by just coloring it blue in MS paint or something and dying the original jersey in blue.
or in china's case, just flip the logo
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Or you could just watch the games for the gameplay and not give a shit about meaningless shit like that
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On January 01 2016 19:51 Fildun wrote:
I disagree with your notion that allowing sister teams will 'force' owners to form them. The current scrim system is good enough that you don't necessarily need sister teams to scrim, plus you can also pay teams to do certain things in practice (e.g. scrim after they're already knocked out of playoffs, practice certain strats).
I personally think that it'd just allow companies/people with a lot of money to throw around to invest more in the pro scene, which I think is a pretty good thing.
Being 'forced' to form sister teams to follow the competition was the answer I got when I asked somewhere else about why/how the practice of sister teams originally spread in OGN.
If that reason is not true, then what is the impetus behind the historical case we actually have to examine?
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On January 01 2016 21:40 Prog wrote:
Sister teams are just terrible from a spectator point of view. You can't create hype around Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2. It just does not make for a good story. And esports as a business is first and foremost entertainment, so the story is more important than anything else.
Personally I found it very easy to create hype around Samsung 1 and Samsung 2.
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On December 31 2015 14:30 bbc23 wrote:
Those were separate teams. They can mix and match these 10 players as they want every week. That hasn't been done before.
Some of the Korean teams post-Chinese exodus were very close. I think Najin was at 9? Turned out pretty bad for them when they were actively trying to play everyone.
On December 31 2015 20:40 AsnSensation wrote:
Don't think 10 man roster is really viable in LoL because there is always going to be a "best" roster and it's not like you need subs like in sports because of injuries and fatigue. Most players also don't really have a different champion pool, but only learn the top 3-4 optimal meta picks. Hope it works though and now they have a Coach that can communicate properly with Piglet and Fenix.
Actually, I think a 10 (or at least >5) -man roster is exactly the place where teams should be looking to have players that aren't meta-only. Why would you have your bench practice the same champion pool as the starters, who are presumably better at exactly the same picks? The reason everyone plays meta is because it's stable, but your bench players don't need to be stable. Your starters give you that. Your bench players can just ignore meta and practice 3-5 cheese picks without hurting the team at all.
Not sure what kind of team synergy you can develop in that kind of system, though.
Edit:
Regarding sister teams, definitely in favor. As someone who ignores hype factor almost completely, intra-organisation games are among the most interesting. Even when one team is deemed significantly stronger, you often see that the other knows how to play against them stylistically and you see a lot of weird picks and game dynamics that basically don't exist anywhere else.
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On January 02 2016 02:07 Prog wrote:Logos are also a big thing. I believe that this is not good tv: + Show Spoiler +Whereas this is clearly better: + Show Spoiler +
It's not even just the logos. In the second one "Jets" and "Giants" are clearly bigger and more important than "New York". Not to mention that colors are a boring way to distinguish teams by comparison.
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Putting a guy that lacks self confidence and seems rather immature as head coach is.... questionable I guess.
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On January 02 2016 01:42 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 01:23 Numy wrote:On January 02 2016 01:17 Zato-1 wrote:On January 01 2016 21:40 Prog wrote:
Sister teams are just terrible from a spectator point of view. You can't create hype around Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2. It just does not make for a good story. And esports as a business is first and foremost entertainment, so the story is more important than anything else. On January 02 2016 00:15 Prog wrote:
For bulding a story of two teams playing against each other you generally want to target at least three different audiences: Fans of team 1, fans of team 2 and neutral spectators. Whenever you have two sister teams play each other, you naturally get a lot of overlap between the first 2 target audiences. Moreover, you also create a situation in which neutral specators might think that nothing is on the line, because the team wins anyway. Sure, if you are heavily invested into the league scene you see differences that give you a sense that they are not the same team. However, if you are not that involved, you likely won't be pulled into viewing the event if it is advertised as "Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2". I believe that OGN/Riot thinks about storylines with the casual viewer in mind. Most people on this site would watch the games regardless what the teams are called, because we know the players and we love to watch the game. But there are lots of people for whom it makes a difference if they perceive a game as important. It is OGN's/Riot's job to make the games feel important. And it is easier to do so if both teams are not obvious sister teams.
On a side note: It is not an accident that two sister teams cannot both get into the highest league in traditional sports (you find something very similar to sister teams in football (soccer) everywhere in europe). I agree, I could not care less about Samsung White vs. Samsung Blue in 2014 and all the storylines mentioned just sounded to me like (failed) desperate attempts to keep the matchup interesting. Do you watch league for quality games or for personalities and storylines? Sounds to me like you like the latter hence why you have such a reaction. I find it hard to believe that anyone that likes watching league gameplay wouldn't have cared about the White vs Blue games. Implying that you can either watch quality Korean games or shitty NA/EU games with personalities and storylines? As far as I'm concerned, NA and EU LCS are also quality games, just not as high quality as KR but more than making up for it with recognizable brands, personalities and storylines. So yes, as a viewer of NA and sometimes EU, Samsung White and Samsung Blue were basically interchangeable to me.
So, what you're saying is you 1. Don't watch Korean LOL, and, thus, had no previous experience watching true sister teams in LOL; and 2. Largely only cared for manufactured storylines?
Sorry if I don't quite rate your input on sister teams, quality of games, match-fixing, etc.
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On January 07 2016 07:55 NotMeEver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 01:42 Zato-1 wrote:On January 02 2016 01:23 Numy wrote:On January 02 2016 01:17 Zato-1 wrote:On January 01 2016 21:40 Prog wrote:
Sister teams are just terrible from a spectator point of view. You can't create hype around Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2. It just does not make for a good story. And esports as a business is first and foremost entertainment, so the story is more important than anything else. On January 02 2016 00:15 Prog wrote:
For bulding a story of two teams playing against each other you generally want to target at least three different audiences: Fans of team 1, fans of team 2 and neutral spectators. Whenever you have two sister teams play each other, you naturally get a lot of overlap between the first 2 target audiences. Moreover, you also create a situation in which neutral specators might think that nothing is on the line, because the team wins anyway. Sure, if you are heavily invested into the league scene you see differences that give you a sense that they are not the same team. However, if you are not that involved, you likely won't be pulled into viewing the event if it is advertised as "Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2". I believe that OGN/Riot thinks about storylines with the casual viewer in mind. Most people on this site would watch the games regardless what the teams are called, because we know the players and we love to watch the game. But there are lots of people for whom it makes a difference if they perceive a game as important. It is OGN's/Riot's job to make the games feel important. And it is easier to do so if both teams are not obvious sister teams.
On a side note: It is not an accident that two sister teams cannot both get into the highest league in traditional sports (you find something very similar to sister teams in football (soccer) everywhere in europe). I agree, I could not care less about Samsung White vs. Samsung Blue in 2014 and all the storylines mentioned just sounded to me like (failed) desperate attempts to keep the matchup interesting. Do you watch league for quality games or for personalities and storylines? Sounds to me like you like the latter hence why you have such a reaction. I find it hard to believe that anyone that likes watching league gameplay wouldn't have cared about the White vs Blue games. Implying that you can either watch quality Korean games or shitty NA/EU games with personalities and storylines? As far as I'm concerned, NA and EU LCS are also quality games, just not as high quality as KR but more than making up for it with recognizable brands, personalities and storylines. So yes, as a viewer of NA and sometimes EU, Samsung White and Samsung Blue were basically interchangeable to me. So, what you're saying is you 1. Don't watch Korean LOL, and, thus, had no previous experience watching true sister teams in LOL; and 2. Largely only cared for manufactured storylines? Sorry if I don't quite rate your input on sister teams, quality of games, match-fixing, etc.
Congratulations, you just won the most passive-aggressive post of the week award!
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On January 07 2016 11:39 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2016 07:55 NotMeEver wrote:On January 02 2016 01:42 Zato-1 wrote:On January 02 2016 01:23 Numy wrote:On January 02 2016 01:17 Zato-1 wrote:On January 01 2016 21:40 Prog wrote:
Sister teams are just terrible from a spectator point of view. You can't create hype around Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2. It just does not make for a good story. And esports as a business is first and foremost entertainment, so the story is more important than anything else. On January 02 2016 00:15 Prog wrote:
For bulding a story of two teams playing against each other you generally want to target at least three different audiences: Fans of team 1, fans of team 2 and neutral spectators. Whenever you have two sister teams play each other, you naturally get a lot of overlap between the first 2 target audiences. Moreover, you also create a situation in which neutral specators might think that nothing is on the line, because the team wins anyway. Sure, if you are heavily invested into the league scene you see differences that give you a sense that they are not the same team. However, if you are not that involved, you likely won't be pulled into viewing the event if it is advertised as "Samsung 1 vs Samsung 2". I believe that OGN/Riot thinks about storylines with the casual viewer in mind. Most people on this site would watch the games regardless what the teams are called, because we know the players and we love to watch the game. But there are lots of people for whom it makes a difference if they perceive a game as important. It is OGN's/Riot's job to make the games feel important. And it is easier to do so if both teams are not obvious sister teams.
On a side note: It is not an accident that two sister teams cannot both get into the highest league in traditional sports (you find something very similar to sister teams in football (soccer) everywhere in europe). I agree, I could not care less about Samsung White vs. Samsung Blue in 2014 and all the storylines mentioned just sounded to me like (failed) desperate attempts to keep the matchup interesting. Do you watch league for quality games or for personalities and storylines? Sounds to me like you like the latter hence why you have such a reaction. I find it hard to believe that anyone that likes watching league gameplay wouldn't have cared about the White vs Blue games. Implying that you can either watch quality Korean games or shitty NA/EU games with personalities and storylines? As far as I'm concerned, NA and EU LCS are also quality games, just not as high quality as KR but more than making up for it with recognizable brands, personalities and storylines. So yes, as a viewer of NA and sometimes EU, Samsung White and Samsung Blue were basically interchangeable to me. So, what you're saying is you 1. Don't watch Korean LOL, and, thus, had no previous experience watching true sister teams in LOL; and 2. Largely only cared for manufactured storylines? Sorry if I don't quite rate your input on sister teams, quality of games, match-fixing, etc. Congratulations, you just won the most passive-aggressive post of the week award!
Quite ironic, don't you think?
Anyway that wasn't even close to a passive aggressive post plus he's right. If you don't want to educate yourself about the topic at hand, we're not gonna care much for your opinion.
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