EPTLike, Ori has a ball. All her abilities are based on her awesome ball. The entire champion makes sense around the idea of a floating ball.
What the hell does a Ninja have to do with a mystical sword?
[Patch 5.24] League of Legends General Discussion - Page 32
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Like, Ori has a ball. All her abilities are based on her awesome ball. The entire champion makes sense around the idea of a floating ball. What the hell does a Ninja have to do with a mystical sword? | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
At least the visual update is amazing. Gonna have to buy sub zero shen now. ALSO FINALLY THE RENGAR COUNTER IS HERE | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:30 wei2coolman wrote: I don't really care about the balance of the champion, that's all workable based on numbers, and damage type, and scaling. The biggest problem is the retardation of making a floating weapon based champ, that has minimal interaction with the actual fucking ability. >.> Like, Ori has a ball. All her abilities are based on her awesome ball. The entire champion makes sense around the idea of a floating ball. What the hell does a Ninja have to do with a mystical sword? I assume they tried to tie Shen in with irelia. even though Irelias technique of the floating blade is supposed to be foreign to Ionia, and known only by her dead father. This also changes the way Zed's story works, he trained alongside Shen and used many of the same techniques, he now uses none of them, despite him not relying on the shadow technique heavily when he fought shen initially. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
hard for me to be objective since I hate reworks on principal, as well as think some point and click is healthy for the game. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
If you had the choice of last hitting a minion or Q+hit another to get more sustain, the best choice is almost always to simply hold onto your Q to harass your opponent if he's in range instead. And yeah, removing Shen's R when it fills a specific niche would be dumb, I'd rather see Shen's character reworked so he's not a ninja anymore than his R removed. W is super short (about 2 seconds?) and said to have a cd such that even lategame you won't get to cast 2 in a teamfight. The radius is pretty wide, but if you can cc the target or walk out of the zone as it's cast then it won't do too much. It also won't protect you from LeBlanc or Syndra. It's actually closer to current Jax E too, because it's 100% dodge for a fixed duration, and not a variable dodge% that's always on. As for the support part, if the sword is wherever you put your Q, then if you want to cover your marksman with it you'll either have to Q near him, or have him walk toward you if you're engaging so you cast QW after you land your taunt. The repositioning having downtime with Q's cooldown (and the cost of wasting the steroid if you only reposition without having somebody to hit), and the fact that you can't make it follow you (like Orianna can pick up her ball) means there are avenues to prevent getting all the Q and W bonuses at once in a duo lane, or make it hard/situationnal enough that it feels like a reward. Sure, he's broken since he just got reworked so he's gonna be overtuned, but I feel like design-wise, it's not that bad, and there are reasonable levers in place to put it in a better place once released. On January 14 2016 04:30 wei2coolman wrote: I don't really care about the balance of the champion, that's all workable based on numbers, and damage type, and scaling. The biggest problem is the retardation of making a floating weapon based champ, that has minimal interaction with the actual fucking ability. >.> Like, Ori has a ball. All her abilities are based on her awesome ball. The entire champion makes sense around the idea of a floating ball. What the hell does a Ninja have to do with a mystical sword? I'm not going to try an defend the thematics, though. The fact that he's got some mystical element he can use to play around doesn't bother me, but the whole "special link with a blade remotely controlled" was supposed to be Irelia's thing whenever Rioters talk about how they'd like to remake her kit, so with that being addressed by Shen now, it seems weird. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:37 Slusher wrote: I guess they sort of swapped ki strike to be an active (although not based on your hp now) with his w. I think my only complaint is that this new Q is based on opponent HP instead of your own hp, hard to say without numbers but the current setup allows you to do a lot of burst damage to squishies you taunt successfully, which I think is rewarding gameplay. hard for me to be objective since I hate reworks on principal, as well as think some point and click is healthy for the game. Point and click is a necessary balance. It's the main counter to high mobility. List of Point and click damage with bells and whistles attached; Old Shen Q, Brand E, Akali Q, Anivia E, Annie Q, Caitlyn R, Cassio E, Cho'Gath R, Darius R, Elise Q (both), Gangplank Q, Garen R, Janna W, Kass Q, Kayle Q, Kha'zix Q, Leblanc Q, Lulu E, Malphite Q, Malz E, MF Q, Ryze W, Swain Q and E, trist E, Vik Q, Vlad Q, WW Q, Yorick E. Apparently all these abilities are boring and should be replaced by a minigame. On January 14 2016 04:44 Alaric wrote: There wasn't really that choice with og Shen Q: if you kill a minion with it, it's usually because it's either at range and you can't afford to walk up to it, or you're last hitting another minion and you need Q to last hit that one because you don't have enough AS. If you had the choice of last hitting a minion or Q+hit another to get more sustain, the best choice is almost always to simply hold onto your Q to harass your opponent if he's in range instead. And yeah, removing Shen's R when it fills a specific niche would be dumb, I'd rather see Shen's character reworked so he's not a ninja anymore than his R removed. W is super short (about 2 seconds?) and said to have a cd such that even lategame you won't get to cast 2 in a teamfight. The radius is pretty wide, but if you can cc the target or walk out of the zone as it's cast then it won't do too much. It also won't protect you from LeBlanc or Syndra. It's actually closer to current Jax E too, because it's 100% dodge for a fixed duration, and not a variable dodge% that's always on. As for the support part, if the sword is wherever you put your Q, then if you want to cover your marksman with it you'll either have to Q near him, or have him walk toward you if you're engaging so you cast QW after you land your taunt. The repositioning having downtime with Q's cooldown (and the cost of wasting the steroid if you only reposition without having somebody to hit), and the fact that you can't make it follow you (like Orianna can pick up her ball) means there are avenues to prevent getting all the Q and W bonuses at once in a duo lane, or make it hard/situationnal enough that it feels like a reward. Sure, he's broken since he just got reworked so he's gonna be overtuned, but I feel like design-wise, it's not that bad, and there are reasonable levers in place to put it in a better place once released. I don't think his new Q and W are problems. Just that they'd be better served on a new champ. Like new poppy. I love new poppy. but if the kit was on a new champ (maybe the dude she got the hammer from), it'd be better. and the poppy rework should have been closer to old poppy. These new shen abilities are fucking terrible for shen. they aren't bad in a vacuum though. Add to that the totally made up and BS reasoning (at least i hope its made up, and they aren't that bad truly). and it's easy to see why its a bad rework. Those abilities SCREAM i want to make a new champ, but i got assigned to a rework. Other abilities that would have fit the theme and worked better on a new champ with the new Q and W: and E where it spins the sword around champ at moderately quick speed (800-1100 units), blocking any skillshot that hits it and dealing minor damage to anything it passes through. an ult that lets you command the sword to attack a target on its own, Draining the life from the target and healing the champ. Maybe the sword gains an increasing fraction of the champs Attack speed as you rank it up. Shit you want a theme for the champ, how about a noxian swordsman who always fought along side his brother, always having eachothers backs, until a battle against Azir's forces that caused his brother to become trapped in his sword. new champ continues to fight along side his bro, but in a new way filled with grief and self blame for his mistake, vowing to become stronger to make up for it, in true noxian fashion. his splash art could be him standing back to back with the sword, and a faint outline of his brothers spirit wielding it. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:57 cLutZ wrote: So, basically, his Q is Ori E that you can't cast on teammates? And gives you a shield through passive and an auto steroid? Because if that's the case he has no harassing tools, basically making him the most all-in champion in the game. and his W is literally Ekko W, except it triggers off allies, and just provides dodge change instead of a shield/ enemy stun. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 14 2016 05:00 PrinceXizor wrote: and his W is literally Ekko W, except it triggers off allies, and just provides dodge change instead of a shield/ enemy stun. and his E is literally Rammus E, except he can hit multiple targets, and doesn't last as long, and is a skillshot instead of targeted, and is a dash, and costs energy instead of mana, and restores energy on Q/W. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:57 cLutZ wrote: So, basically, his Q is Ori E that you can't cast on teammates? And gives you a shield through passive and an auto steroid? Because if that's the case he has no harassing tools, basically making him the most all-in champion in the game. Somewhere, Xin Zhao cries thinking of his old glory. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 14 2016 05:11 nafta wrote: Don't see what does shen w have to do with ekko w except that it is a fucking circle. You can't even aim it... a bubble you set up in advance that triggers when someone walks into it giving a defensive benefit. They clearly have the same base-skill. with similar purposes. Ekkos has a stun attached. It's like how kat Q and brand R are the same spell, but have different cast times, ranges, damage values, and buffs they apply. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:28 GrandInquisitor wrote: Welcome to LiquidLegends, where no one knows what the fuck we're talking about, except that we all know that every new thing from Riot is literally garbage all the time. The fact that you wanted Riot to remove Shen's ultimate makes me really glad you aren't in charge of reworks. What the shit would be the point of Shen without his most defining ability? May as well rework Twisted Fate to remove his ultimate too. He didnt need a rework unless his R was what you were planning to rework. If i was in charge I wouldn't have reworked him to begin with. You are one of the biggest riot apologists on this site though so not surprised | ||
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 14 2016 05:14 Alaric wrote: Somewhere, Xin Zhao cries thinking of his old glory. Xin's R is a potential disengage. I guess you can kind of kite and reengage with shen kind of like you do with Ekko shadow, but his Q (aka his damage) seems almost impossible to position correctly unless you have E'd onto your target; If it works how it seems to work. You can certainly color me confused about his whole new design. Obviously he will probably be good at defending against trades within his own minion lines because hitting Q then Wing away the damage should be easy when your going backwards, but his aggressive trading pattern seems pretty limited to E>Q>W>walk away. Could be good, pro play he will probably be played exclusively defensively and balanced pretty similarly to he is now, as an herbivore. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
But ultimately, what the hell? There were definitely more deserving champs. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 14 2016 05:33 JimmiC wrote: I think it's funny how much rage and sadness comes out whenever a rework comes, with screams of useless or op or crappy. Maybe lets at least play a game or two before everyone grabs their pitchforks. Let us not forget how often these theory crafting circle jerks of hate are wrong or even completely backwards. Like I said, I really dislike the rework on just a pure character design basis. Balance is almost always achievable with number changes. | ||
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