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[Patch 5.17] League of Legends General Discussion - Page 15

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
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krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
September 08 2015 15:22 GMT
#281
--- Nuked ---
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
September 08 2015 16:30 GMT
#282
I feel like the majority of complaints about tiers are really just proxies for complaints that you are not in the tier you believe you deserve to be in. Yeah, it's hard to rank up and win promos if your win rate isn't that good. That's what's supposed to happen! If you're winning 70+% of your games and still unable to rank up, then I have some sympathy, but when some redditor is bitching about the League system being unfair when they sport a 45% win rate in Bronze II - dude, you'd be complaining about ranked no matter what system was being used.

More generally, having clearly-defined breakpoints and obscuring MMR with tiers is more meaningful than trying to encapsulate skill in a single number. It allows us to draw generalizations and say "Platinum player" and "Silver player", and have that mean something.
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
September 08 2015 16:34 GMT
#283
fun fact I learned the other day, decaying only changes your visual tier, not your hidden MMR.

So if you really want to troll, let your visual mmr drop an entire tier and see how people respond to a plat 3 being in their diamond 3 game for example. Then they look it up and and you aren't duo'd with anyone and they get mindfucked.
I come in for the scraps
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35172 Posts
September 08 2015 16:36 GMT
#284
On September 09 2015 01:34 VayneAuthority wrote:
fun fact I learned the other day, decaying only changes your visual tier, not your hidden MMR.

So if you really want to troll, let your visual mmr drop an entire tier and see how people respond to a plat 3 being in their diamond 3 game for example. Then they look it up and and you aren't duo'd with anyone and they get mindfucked.

You can't look up duos anymore iirc. Too many duos were being harassed when they didn't do well or defended their partner from an asshole.
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
September 08 2015 16:40 GMT
#285
On September 09 2015 01:36 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2015 01:34 VayneAuthority wrote:
fun fact I learned the other day, decaying only changes your visual tier, not your hidden MMR.

So if you really want to troll, let your visual mmr drop an entire tier and see how people respond to a plat 3 being in their diamond 3 game for example. Then they look it up and and you aren't duo'd with anyone and they get mindfucked.

You can't look up duos anymore iirc. Too many duos were being harassed when they didn't do well or defended their partner from an asshole.


theres lots of popular 3rd party sites that do it pretty sure, i only use lolking though so no idea.

I think the person said they looked at op.na or op.gg or something? dont remember
I come in for the scraps
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35172 Posts
September 08 2015 16:42 GMT
#286
On September 09 2015 01:40 VayneAuthority wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2015 01:36 Gahlo wrote:
On September 09 2015 01:34 VayneAuthority wrote:
fun fact I learned the other day, decaying only changes your visual tier, not your hidden MMR.

So if you really want to troll, let your visual mmr drop an entire tier and see how people respond to a plat 3 being in their diamond 3 game for example. Then they look it up and and you aren't duo'd with anyone and they get mindfucked.

You can't look up duos anymore iirc. Too many duos were being harassed when they didn't do well or defended their partner from an asshole.


theres lots of popular 3rd party sites that do it pretty sure, i only use lolking though so no idea.

I think the person said they looked at op.na or op.gg or something? dont remember

op.gg will pull people in games that you've been on in the last 20 games, but most people don't look that far down.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-08 16:53:25
September 08 2015 16:52 GMT
#287
On September 09 2015 01:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I feel like the majority of complaints about tiers are really just proxies for complaints that you are not in the tier you believe you deserve to be in. Yeah, it's hard to rank up and win promos if your win rate isn't that good. That's what's supposed to happen! If you're winning 70+% of your games and still unable to rank up, then I have some sympathy, but when some redditor is bitching about the League system being unfair when they sport a 45% win rate in Bronze II - dude, you'd be complaining about ranked no matter what system was being used.

More generally, having clearly-defined breakpoints and obscuring MMR with tiers is more meaningful than trying to encapsulate skill in a single number. It allows us to draw generalizations and say "Platinum player" and "Silver player", and have that mean something.

What is the difference between platinum 3 player or "insert random number bracket" player? The only difference is you can't see your actual mmr while before you could.

Obviously this is assuming promos are no different from regular games matchmaking wise.
Sonnington
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1107 Posts
September 08 2015 16:54 GMT
#288
On September 08 2015 23:49 nafta wrote:
If teams are even mmr it would make sense since red side is supposed to be higher to remove the "favored" blue side advantage.

Red side also always has a higher mmr than blue side to even out the blue side advantage. I, personally, don't see much of a difference, but a lot of people complain about going bot lane on red side. Also, you can't argue that the screen widens on the top part and contracts on the bottom part making it easier to see what's coming at you from the top of the screen. It's like the way SC2's minimap camera positioning shows.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The camera widens at the top and contracts at the bottom due to the isometric perspective. Along with that, the hud is at the bottom of the screen which can obstruct view from the red side. I guess you could also argue Baron is safer to do on blue side than red side due to the pit opening up to the blue side. So it's less risky to ward the river and do scuttle when you're on blue side. The causes of blue side advantage are arguable, but the fact blue side wins 5% more than red side doesn't change.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-08 17:00:48
September 08 2015 17:00 GMT
#289
On September 09 2015 01:54 Sonnington wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2015 23:49 nafta wrote:
If teams are even mmr it would make sense since red side is supposed to be higher to remove the "favored" blue side advantage.

Red side also always has a higher mmr than blue side to even out the blue side advantage. I, personally, don't see much of a difference, but a lot of people complain about going bot lane on red side. Also, you can't argue that the screen widens on the top part and contracts on the bottom part making it easier to see what's coming at you from the top of the screen. It's like the way SC2's minimap camera positioning shows.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The camera widens at the top and contracts at the bottom due to the isometric perspective. Along with that, the hud is at the bottom of the screen which can obstruct view from the red side. I guess you could also argue Baron is safer to do on blue side than red side due to the pit opening up to the blue side. So it's less risky to ward the river and do scuttle when you're on blue side. The causes of blue side advantage are arguable, but the fact blue side wins 5% more than red side doesn't change.

except with the new hud there is nothing in the bot left side(unless you change your minimap positioning) and you do frog faster than you do golems

Red side has been better for bot ever since they nerfed the frog.
Nos-
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada12016 Posts
September 08 2015 17:43 GMT
#290
On September 09 2015 01:52 nafta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2015 01:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I feel like the majority of complaints about tiers are really just proxies for complaints that you are not in the tier you believe you deserve to be in. Yeah, it's hard to rank up and win promos if your win rate isn't that good. That's what's supposed to happen! If you're winning 70+% of your games and still unable to rank up, then I have some sympathy, but when some redditor is bitching about the League system being unfair when they sport a 45% win rate in Bronze II - dude, you'd be complaining about ranked no matter what system was being used.

More generally, having clearly-defined breakpoints and obscuring MMR with tiers is more meaningful than trying to encapsulate skill in a single number. It allows us to draw generalizations and say "Platinum player" and "Silver player", and have that mean something.

What is the difference between platinum 3 player or "insert random number bracket" player? The only difference is you can't see your actual mmr while before you could.

Obviously this is assuming promos are no different from regular games matchmaking wise.

don't they match you against stronger opponents during promos?
Bronze player stuck in platinum
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 08 2015 17:53 GMT
#291
On September 09 2015 01:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I feel like the majority of complaints about tiers are really just proxies for complaints that you are not in the tier you believe you deserve to be in. Yeah, it's hard to rank up and win promos if your win rate isn't that good. That's what's supposed to happen! If you're winning 70+% of your games and still unable to rank up, then I have some sympathy, but when some redditor is bitching about the League system being unfair when they sport a 45% win rate in Bronze II - dude, you'd be complaining about ranked no matter what system was being used.

More generally, having clearly-defined breakpoints and obscuring MMR with tiers is more meaningful than trying to encapsulate skill in a single number. It allows us to draw generalizations and say "Platinum player" and "Silver player", and have that mean something.

For me its also related to the randomized pick order.
Freeeeeeedom
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
September 08 2015 18:06 GMT
#292
On September 09 2015 02:43 Nos- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2015 01:52 nafta wrote:
On September 09 2015 01:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I feel like the majority of complaints about tiers are really just proxies for complaints that you are not in the tier you believe you deserve to be in. Yeah, it's hard to rank up and win promos if your win rate isn't that good. That's what's supposed to happen! If you're winning 70+% of your games and still unable to rank up, then I have some sympathy, but when some redditor is bitching about the League system being unfair when they sport a 45% win rate in Bronze II - dude, you'd be complaining about ranked no matter what system was being used.

More generally, having clearly-defined breakpoints and obscuring MMR with tiers is more meaningful than trying to encapsulate skill in a single number. It allows us to draw generalizations and say "Platinum player" and "Silver player", and have that mean something.

What is the difference between platinum 3 player or "insert random number bracket" player? The only difference is you can't see your actual mmr while before you could.

Obviously this is assuming promos are no different from regular games matchmaking wise.

don't they match you against stronger opponents during promos?

They specifically denied this in a red post recently. Its just matchmaking.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
739
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Bearded Elder29904 Posts
September 08 2015 18:16 GMT
#293
http://eune.op.gg/summoner/champions/userName=milanmarkovbrat

Seems like jungle Zilean is a thing.
WriterSalty oldboy that loves memes | One and only back-to-back Liquibet Winner
Sonnington
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1107 Posts
September 08 2015 18:26 GMT
#294
On September 09 2015 03:16 739 wrote:
http://eune.op.gg/summoner/champions/userName=milanmarkovbrat

Seems like jungle Zilean is a thing.

Wow, I can imagine his ganks would be really devastating. His counter gank at level 6 would be amazing as well. But uh, how does it work out? I can't imagine his clear is good.
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
September 08 2015 18:32 GMT
#295
--- Nuked ---
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 08 2015 18:50 GMT
#296
On September 08 2015 23:56 Caiada wrote:
The current system would be great if confirmation bias didn't exist and telling people the system will eventually put them in the right place actually worked. Unfortunately, well, reality.

It's still better than Elo. If people understood the system and allowed for variance, it'd be perfect. But it's underexplained and trying to tell people that Gold V guy in your Silver II game isn't any better than you are and probably isn't the reason you lost doesn't work.


Why is it better than ELO if the ELO system can be easily just pasted on top of the Bronze V - Diamond I system (sans promos and demotion) with a +/- variance number like any statistical study has?
Freeeeeeedom
Sonnington
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1107 Posts
September 08 2015 19:38 GMT
#297
On September 09 2015 03:32 krndandaman wrote:
looks like some random low silver account boosted by a high elo player.

i mean we've had a teemo jungle only challenger, won't be too shocked by anything jungle to diamond.

Oh, yeah, looks like he just started spamming the shit out of Zil jungle the past week with a magical 85% winrate. Doesn't matter though it looks really fun! It's probably really good because it's underestimated, he has tons of cc, and he can get his idiot teammates out of trouble.
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
September 08 2015 20:10 GMT
#298
On September 09 2015 03:50 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2015 23:56 Caiada wrote:
The current system would be great if confirmation bias didn't exist and telling people the system will eventually put them in the right place actually worked. Unfortunately, well, reality.

It's still better than Elo. If people understood the system and allowed for variance, it'd be perfect. But it's underexplained and trying to tell people that Gold V guy in your Silver II game isn't any better than you are and probably isn't the reason you lost doesn't work.


Why is it better than ELO if the ELO system can be easily just pasted on top of the Bronze V - Diamond I system (sans promos and demotion) with a +/- variance number like any statistical study has?


Personal feelings of progress, keeping people playing, all the people posting 'hey, I finally got Gold V' on forums who'd get to whatever Elo that was equivalent to beforehand and be a lot more scared of playing. More delineated tiers instead of faceless numbers. Ups and downs across playing instead of the flat grind of getting one number higher.

XDG Mata
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 08 2015 20:18 GMT
#299
You would still get a sweet new icon when you hit Gold V. No reason for Riot to not just lock in rewards after 20 or so post-placement games. Its not like giving away an extra 10% of Victorious Heimerdinger skins is going to matter.
Freeeeeeedom
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-08 20:19:44
September 08 2015 20:19 GMT
#300
On September 09 2015 05:10 Caiada wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2015 03:50 cLutZ wrote:
On September 08 2015 23:56 Caiada wrote:
The current system would be great if confirmation bias didn't exist and telling people the system will eventually put them in the right place actually worked. Unfortunately, well, reality.

It's still better than Elo. If people understood the system and allowed for variance, it'd be perfect. But it's underexplained and trying to tell people that Gold V guy in your Silver II game isn't any better than you are and probably isn't the reason you lost doesn't work.


Why is it better than ELO if the ELO system can be easily just pasted on top of the Bronze V - Diamond I system (sans promos and demotion) with a +/- variance number like any statistical study has?


Personal feelings of progress, keeping people playing, all the people posting 'hey, I finally got Gold V' on forums who'd get to whatever Elo that was equivalent to beforehand and be a lot more scared of playing. More delineated tiers instead of faceless numbers. Ups and downs across playing instead of the flat grind of getting one number higher.


yea this system is much better for the people who don't actually understand the system. It is definitely focused around the casual playerbase. Even the promos make basically meaningless games feel like they matter.
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