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On June 25 2015 09:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 09:15 LimpingGoat wrote:On June 25 2015 07:01 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote:
I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Pobelter got Challenger in Korea, proceeded to have worst split in his LCS career. Dun dun dun. I'm pretty sure that part of community who understands things (or tries to do it) have already agreed that infrastructure > players at this point, therefore Korea can be still relevant even after losing like 50 players to other regions and so on. But saying that Faker, Mata, Meiko, Koro1 and at least like 20-30 players ain't more talented than their LCS counterparts? Oh, please. Yeah, I'm not saying Western players are some how innately unable to play at that level, the problem is that there's no good way of developing that talent in the West, and considering how fucking stacked talent is on the top team of the East compared to the West, it's just easier to say "Eastern players are more talented". East develops its talent the same way the West does, kids just playing Soloq. This game is not so insanely complex that like, our players are just getting outplayed individually. People stupidly just see one team doing better than another and then think that must mean the players on the winning team are individually better, which at the highest level at least is actually very rarely the case. The difference is soloqueue stars in the East get picked up by teams and developed. When was the last time being #1 in NA meant you got a shot into a team? The closest thing we've seen was Rhux winning a 1v1 tourney.
Go through NA's top ten, almost all of them are in the LCS. If a talent actually comes up people will notice it immediately, especially in NA of all regions.
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Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team
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On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote:
Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team
^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets.
Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese.
We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player.
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On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote:
Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player.
And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players.
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On June 25 2015 10:26 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote:
Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players.
Not to mention orgs that have multiple world-class players in a single position.
EDG Koro, and AmazinJ
EDG U and Pawn (last split)
SKT Faker and Ez hoon.
Flame and Acorn.
like holy shit, can't even compare top western team "talent" to top eastern team talent.
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On June 25 2015 10:29 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:26 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote:
Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players. Not to mention orgs that have multiple world-class players in a single position. EDG Koro, and AmazinJ EDG U and Pawn (last split) SKT Faker and Ez hoon. Flame and Acorn. like holy shit, can't even compare top western team "talent" to top eastern team talent.
You could make the same statement if 80% of the top level EU players went to NA, because in 3/4 of the example you just gave, that's what happened. I'm willing to bet IG has more money invested into Kakao than some LCS orgs have in their entire team.
Also, let's not pretend for one minute that the LGD top situation isn't the result of cockblocking on obvious sister teams.
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On June 25 2015 10:33 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:29 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:26 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote:
Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players. Not to mention orgs that have multiple world-class players in a single position. EDG Koro, and AmazinJ EDG U and Pawn (last split) SKT Faker and Ez hoon. Flame and Acorn. like holy shit, can't even compare top western team "talent" to top eastern team talent. You could make the same statement if 80% of the top level EU players went to NA, because in 3/4 of the example you just gave, that's what happened. I'm willing to bet IG has more money invested into Kakao than some LCS orgs have in their entire team. Also, let's not pretend for one minute that the LGD top situation isn't the result of cockblocking on obvious sister teams.
As opposed to sister team organizations in the previous split? God-tier players everywhere in Korea.
Also more money invested = more infrastructure = more talent development.
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On June 25 2015 10:35 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:33 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 10:29 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:26 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote:
Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players. Not to mention orgs that have multiple world-class players in a single position. EDG Koro, and AmazinJ EDG U and Pawn (last split) SKT Faker and Ez hoon. Flame and Acorn. like holy shit, can't even compare top western team "talent" to top eastern team talent. You could make the same statement if 80% of the top level EU players went to NA, because in 3/4 of the example you just gave, that's what happened. I'm willing to bet IG has more money invested into Kakao than some LCS orgs have in their entire team. Also, let's not pretend for one minute that the LGD top situation isn't the result of cockblocking on obvious sister teams. As opposed to sister team organizations in the previous split? God-tier players everywhere in Korea. Also more money invested = more infrastructure = more talent development.
I never once denied this.
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On June 25 2015 07:01 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote:
I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Pobelter got Challenger in Korea, proceeded to have worst split in his LCS career. Dun dun dun. I'm pretty sure that part of community who understands things (or tries to do it) have already agreed that infrastructure > players at this point, therefore Korea can be still relevant even after losing like 50 players to other regions and so on. But saying that Faker, Mata, Meiko, Koro1 and at least like 20-30 players ain't more talented than their LCS counterparts? Oh, please. Yeah, I'm not saying Western players are some how innately unable to play at that level, the problem is that there's no good way of developing that talent in the West, and considering how fucking stacked talent is on the top team of the East compared to the West, it's just easier to say "Eastern players are more talented".
You know what? I've watched quite a few player streams lately and if there is something I noticed when they stream soloq or duoq. They make all sorts of mistakes that they know and don't really act upon it because everyone just wants to go HAM. They Western players pick up all sort of bad habits where it's okay to them to make many mistakes in one game. It's okay though because I'm just streaming solo q. It's a poor mindset and it's hard to turn that around when they're used to it. It's no different than what their managers and coaches tell us.
"They know these things we tell them, but they don't really act upon it."
I like Regi's mindset in pushing the players to better themselves and try to put their best foot forward. It's a state of mind and in order for them to progress they need their players to start thinking more even when they're streaming or doing solo q.
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So mostly because I am not 100% familiar with the rules of lcs but how is this not considered poaching or something along the lines of that where a contracted player is being offered a chance to play for another organization. Can someone explain this too me?
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On June 25 2015 16:43 Andadog wrote:
So mostly because I am not 100% familiar with the rules of lcs but how is this not considered poaching or something along the lines of that where a contracted player is being offered a chance to play for another organization. Can someone explain this too me?
TSM asked TL, TL said okay.
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Basically if you go to the player directly without first talking to and getting approval from their organization, it's poaching.
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There's 3 parts involved in a player transfer from one team to another: The player, his current team, and his prospective team. If all 3 parts agree to the transfer, then it's perfectly fine. If the prospective team tries to make arrangements with the player behind the back of the players' current team, it's poaching.
In the case of Keith, TSM asked TL and Keith, and both agreed to let TSM try Keith out, so it's not poaching.
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On June 25 2015 23:32 Zato-1 wrote:
There's 3 parts involved in a player transfer from one team to another: The player, his current team, and his prospective team. If all 3 parts agree to the transfer, then it's perfectly fine. If the prospective team tries to make arrangements with the player behind the back of the players' current team, it's poaching.
In the case of Keith, TSM asked TL and Keith, and both agreed to let TSM try Keith out, so it's not poaching.
Depending on how the contracts are written the player might not have a choice, strictly speaking.
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On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote:
I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented.
Theres a larger player base in the east and they do a much better job sifting through it
I don't like the word talent, Id much rather just say the players are better and leave it at that.
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It does bug me a bit that 'talent' as a word is so casually thrown about by the general fanbase, since talent refers to innate aptitudes while people are usually actually referring to skill, which is the end result of talent refined through coaching/quantity of experience/quality of experience.
Heck, I'll slam NA all the time in terms of being poor at searching for and refining raw talent. Or being less than favourable for guiding talents down the path of going pro at all. But I'll never say that a region is lacking in talent. It's a statement that comes off as, 'this area of world is intrinsically worse at producing people with the innate traits suitable for this game, as if it's a genetics thing or there's something in the water'.
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Personally, I think NA definitely has less raw talent than China or Korea both as it regards sheer numbers of professional level play and in regards to average skill cap. This is not to say that NA shouldn't have more just on the basis of sheer numbers. Rather that basic traits that tend to make a good player (hand-eye coordination, quick reflexes, fast decision making, etc.) are poached in essence by other sports. In the US at least, sports are still king (generally football > basketball > soccer/baseball etc.). Wheres, I suspect that the esports subculture in Korean provides far more percentage draw than it does in the states; so Korean, while having a lower number of talented prospects, "captures" a significantly higher percentage of those prospects into the esports system. Whereas because esports are far less normalized, the amount of "capturable" talent is likely very low; in addition, the potential talent is pulled between a variety of games in addition to otherwise self-selecting out (for other sports). This of course also doesn't cover the significantly better farm system that exists in Korea and China (in regards to getting talent not necessarily better for the talented players themselves) to the talent that is found is better refined.
Another important way to look at NA/EU vs China/Korea, is college sports. In college football, there may be 5 pro players on a team; sometimes more but usually less. People who possess the intelligence, athleticism, quickness, strength, etc. in order to play on a professional level. The better schools tend to have more players likely to go pro and are more likely to play against opposing teams with pro candidates. So generally, the talent from bigger/better schools tends to do better in NFL and they tend to have a leg up when entering the NFL. I imagine it's like that in Korea. Higher percentage of raw talent who get used to playing against skilled opponents and improve faster because of it and enter the pro scene at a higher level due to it. Whereas in NA, there's less talent; so players are less likely to play against highly skilled opponents. In turn, they progress in skill more slowly because they aren't challenged as strongly as often. This extends to the pro scene and I'm pretty sure Samsung or Anarchy would both be (in the least) top 3 NA LCS if not better.
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On June 26 2015 04:22 geript wrote:
Personally, I think NA definitely has less raw talent than China or Korea both as it regards sheer numbers of professional level play and in regards to average skill cap. This is not to say that NA shouldn't have more just on the basis of sheer numbers. Rather that basic traits that tend to make a good player (hand-eye coordination, quick reflexes, fast decision making, etc.) are poached in essence by other sports. In the US at least, sports are still king (generally football > basketball > soccer/baseball etc.). Wheres, I suspect that the esports subculture in Korean provides far more percentage draw than it does in the states; so Korean, while having a lower number of talented prospects, "captures" a significantly higher percentage of those prospects into the esports system. Whereas because esports are far less normalized, the amount of "capturable" talent is likely very low; in addition, the potential talent is pulled between a variety of games in addition to otherwise self-selecting out (for other sports). This of course also doesn't cover the significantly better farm system that exists in Korea and China (in regards to getting talent not necessarily better for the talented players themselves) to the talent that is found is better refined.
Another important way to look at NA/EU vs China/Korea, is college sports. In college football, there may be 5 pro players on a team; sometimes more but usually less. People who possess the intelligence, athleticism, quickness, strength, etc. in order to play on a professional level. The better schools tend to have more players likely to go pro and are more likely to play against opposing teams with pro candidates. So generally, the talent from bigger/better schools tends to do better in NFL and they tend to have a leg up when entering the NFL. I imagine it's like that in Korea. Higher percentage of raw talent who get used to playing against skilled opponents and improve faster because of it and enter the pro scene at a higher level due to it. Whereas in NA, there's less talent; so players are less likely to play against highly skilled opponents. In turn, they progress in skill more slowly because they aren't challenged as strongly as often. This extends to the pro scene and I'm pretty sure Samsung or Anarchy would both be (in the least) top 3 NA LCS if not better.
So many things wrong with this post lol.
Koreans when they decide they want to be progamers drop high school and immediately start doing it full time, as early as the age of 12-14. That's not the norm nor the desire of parents, it's something that is somewhat accepted depending on each individual situation. You don't see Americans dropping high school and not getting a diploma to play League. Until that kind of basic gap is bridged there's no reason to compare the solo q ladders directly because the best Koreans started much earlier than the best Americans/Europeans.
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On June 23 2015 05:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:45 MooMooMugi wrote:
Reminds me of Chaox all over again, probably has lack of practice due to a girl Can we just stop with it, lol. Nothing prevented Alex Ich from being dominant mid despite being married for almost 2 years at this point.
There's a big difference between what American women demand of you and what foreign women demand.
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On June 26 2015 05:17 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 05:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 MooMooMugi wrote:
Reminds me of Chaox all over again, probably has lack of practice due to a girl Can we just stop with it, lol. Nothing prevented Alex Ich from being dominant mid despite being married for almost 2 years at this point. There's a big difference between what American women demand of you and what Russian women demand.
i never knew Chaox's excuse was girl troubles lol
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EPT
