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On June 02 2015 08:29 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2015 08:15 wei2coolman wrote:On June 02 2015 07:58 Eiii wrote:On June 02 2015 07:50 wei2coolman wrote:
Caitlyn changes could be pretty massive, that's a lot of free armorpen. will this finally be a reason for caitlyn players to stand in a bush and autoattack?!? will caitlyn's design intents finally be realized?!? only time will tell! Caitlyn + Rumble synergy in jungle will be through the roof. also would like to input. Ekko is a bullshit champ, that ult is absurd, especially if you set it up with your W. Pretty much guaranteed to smash the living shit out of everything. not much to input he's listed as a utility assassin which to me says that either his design is going to be inferior to both normal assassins and normal utility mages OR that he's going to be too strong in both aspects and crush everything. it seems to be the second one. i don't think assassins should have any sort of utility because it goes against what they are designed to do
I just find it funny they wanted didn't want Ekko to 100-0 people, but that's exactly what he does. lol.
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Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that.
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On June 02 2015 08:39 Caiada wrote:
Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that.
I thought the whole idea of an "assassin" is that they burst kill people?
If they have to beat on your for a while I thought that was a fighter or a bruiser....
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On June 02 2015 09:30 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2015 08:39 Caiada wrote:
Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that. I thought the whole idea of an "assassin" is that they burst kill people? If they have to beat on your for a while I thought that was a fighter or a bruiser....
There should be more ways to do that than 100-0ing them. Ekko with normal numbers would be more of a clean up crew assassin, turning fights with Ult/W, finishing low targets, etc. Ahri/Zed/Leb are kinda quintessential 100-0 types and there's not much more design space there, imo. Panth finishes low targets after hard-engaging but can't/shouldn't be able to 100-0 just because of his stun and the power of his E. Nidalee is probably the most directly comparable to Ekko? Or current Kassadin, perhaps. They won't 100-0 anyone except rare scenarios or being super fed but will still kill low targets. They've got personal utility in exchange for damage tradeoffs.
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I don't think a sane person would design a champion who's closest analogues are Nidalee and Kassadin...
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On June 02 2015 09:44 Caiada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2015 09:30 sob3k wrote:On June 02 2015 08:39 Caiada wrote:
Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that. I thought the whole idea of an "assassin" is that they burst kill people? If they have to beat on your for a while I thought that was a fighter or a bruiser.... There should be more ways to do that than 100-0ing them. Ekko with normal numbers would be more of a clean up crew assassin, turning fights with Ult/W, finishing low targets, etc. Ahri/Zed/Leb are kinda quintessential 100-0 types and there's not much more design space there, imo. Panth finishes low targets after hard-engaging but can't/shouldn't be able to 100-0 just because of his stun and the power of his E. Nidalee is probably the most directly comparable to Ekko? Or current Kassadin, perhaps. They won't 100-0 anyone except rare scenarios or being super fed but will still kill low targets. They've got personal utility in exchange for damage tradeoffs.
how else are you going to assassinate someone without burst? you can't really. if you CC them for the rest of the team or gradually dps them you simply aren't an assassin. if you want something else you have to take out the things that make him an assassin and give him something else
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If you're good at killing one single person fairly reliably, especially if he doesn't receive back-up, then you're likely an assassin.
Of course marksmen are like that but they're good at killing everyone, they don't need to focus on one, and all of Riven's shit save for autos (till she builds Tiamat) is AoE.
But the idea is that the assassin removes someone from the fight, usually by killing him (or almost killing him), isn't durable, and relies on alternative means to get in, out, and stay alive.
(Irelia is an assassin with decent base stats, not a bruiser, it's just she stops scaling after one item, pretty much, so people build her tanky after that, and because she can't burst you in 3 seconds she's got to be able to function while buying a bit of defense to survive the off lane.)
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I think they key thing about assassins is the speed in which you kill squishies.
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On June 02 2015 10:05 Ansibled wrote:
I think they key thing about assassins is the speed in which you kill squishies.
hecarim assassin confirmed
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On June 02 2015 09:45 Dandel Ion wrote:
What is a tank assassin?
A miserable little pile of secrets.
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piles of secrets kept are piles of weapons wasted?
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Alaric has the right of it.
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On June 02 2015 10:05 Ansibled wrote:
I think they key thing about assassins is the speed in which you kill squishies.
Well, theoretically you could be a super-Poppy that just disabled yourself and a high-priority target that then engaged in a minigame wherein you kill them or die over several seconds, and it would serve the same purpose.
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On June 02 2015 09:54 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2015 09:44 Caiada wrote:On June 02 2015 09:30 sob3k wrote:On June 02 2015 08:39 Caiada wrote:
Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that. I thought the whole idea of an "assassin" is that they burst kill people? If they have to beat on your for a while I thought that was a fighter or a bruiser.... There should be more ways to do that than 100-0ing them. Ekko with normal numbers would be more of a clean up crew assassin, turning fights with Ult/W, finishing low targets, etc. Ahri/Zed/Leb are kinda quintessential 100-0 types and there's not much more design space there, imo. Panth finishes low targets after hard-engaging but can't/shouldn't be able to 100-0 just because of his stun and the power of his E. Nidalee is probably the most directly comparable to Ekko? Or current Kassadin, perhaps. They won't 100-0 anyone except rare scenarios or being super fed but will still kill low targets. They've got personal utility in exchange for damage tradeoffs. how else are you going to assassinate someone without burst? you can't really. if you CC them for the rest of the team or gradually dps them you simply aren't an assassin. if you want something else you have to take out the things that make him an assassin and give him something else
It's not about burst or no. It's about the amount of burst, time its delivered in, setup and so on. So ideally for an assassin with higher utility, they'd have low burst, or would take a decent amount of time to do it comparatively (1 second for Leb compared to like 4+ for all of Ahri's damage, for example), or would require a lot of setup to get it all off.
Which is where Ekko's numbers being bonkers comes into play.
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Trundle/udyr ultimate assassin, 1v1 me bro.
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On June 02 2015 05:27 Fusilero wrote:
Alright now this is interesting
Surprised Alaric isn't crying about this yet
edit - This might not be as much of a buff as I thought it would
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With the numbers they have now, it's basically a buff to his Q in both forms, a buff to his W, and an improved late-game on everything. But by small amounts, mostly. A lot of slightly reduced CDs and numbers increased only at Rank 6. The Q changes are the only particularly notable thing, especially because you'll level it first 100% of the time still.
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It's just small damage buffs to max rank on his Q, W, and E, and nerfs to his damage when they aren't max rank. So he won't be as strong in the lane phase, still be able to poke/siege well in the mid game, and a SLIGHT damage increase in the late game so he doesn't fall off as hard.
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Everything is slightly lower at 5, I'm bad at reading >.>
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EPT
