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gg ez discussion will not be continued in GD following this post |
On May 27 2015 08:23 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 08:10 TheYango wrote:
Gahlo, I don't even know what you're arguing about when even TSM fans painted the picture of Dyrus feeding and "drawing jungle pressure" with the rest of TSM making it back elsewhere. Even at/after IEM that was TSM's apparent "game plan" to people.
What MSI exposed wasn't Dyrus feeding harder than expected, it was that the "make it back elsewhere" gameplan doesn't work when Santorin doesn't work to make that happen, and when Bjergsen doesn't absolutely dumpster enemy mids and carry by himself, and instead is just winning by like 10-ish CS (which is in and of itself respectable at that level of play, it's just that it's totally unreasonable to expect someone to consistently trash lane opponents by 20+ CS and solo-kills at that level of play). This is TSM's problem. But for me the real problem is that NA couldn't expose it as TSM's problem. Which means that TSM can't have faith in any future strategy it develops to be viable against major international opponents.
The Tigers seem to have been exposed now who knows maybe NA will find a way to expose TSM too I hope.
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Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated.
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On May 27 2015 08:36 thejuju wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 08:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2015 08:10 TheYango wrote:
Gahlo, I don't even know what you're arguing about when even TSM fans painted the picture of Dyrus feeding and "drawing jungle pressure" with the rest of TSM making it back elsewhere. Even at/after IEM that was TSM's apparent "game plan" to people.
What MSI exposed wasn't Dyrus feeding harder than expected, it was that the "make it back elsewhere" gameplan doesn't work when Santorin doesn't work to make that happen, and when Bjergsen doesn't absolutely dumpster enemy mids and carry by himself, and instead is just winning by like 10-ish CS (which is in and of itself respectable at that level of play, it's just that it's totally unreasonable to expect someone to consistently trash lane opponents by 20+ CS and solo-kills at that level of play). This is TSM's problem. But for me the real problem is that NA couldn't expose it as TSM's problem. Which means that TSM can't have faith in any future strategy it develops to be viable against major international opponents. The Tigers seem to have been exposed now who knows maybe NA will find a way to expose TSM too I hope.
Tigers thing seems a bit different because figuring them out was, more or less, "brute force them in lane" which other Korean teams have been able to do. In many ways, that was actually what teams did to TSM at MSI, they just ran over the side lanes while keeping Bjergson in the middle. I have low faith in non-C9 teams replicating that in even mild forms.
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On May 27 2015 09:02 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 08:36 thejuju wrote:On May 27 2015 08:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2015 08:10 TheYango wrote:
Gahlo, I don't even know what you're arguing about when even TSM fans painted the picture of Dyrus feeding and "drawing jungle pressure" with the rest of TSM making it back elsewhere. Even at/after IEM that was TSM's apparent "game plan" to people.
What MSI exposed wasn't Dyrus feeding harder than expected, it was that the "make it back elsewhere" gameplan doesn't work when Santorin doesn't work to make that happen, and when Bjergsen doesn't absolutely dumpster enemy mids and carry by himself, and instead is just winning by like 10-ish CS (which is in and of itself respectable at that level of play, it's just that it's totally unreasonable to expect someone to consistently trash lane opponents by 20+ CS and solo-kills at that level of play). This is TSM's problem. But for me the real problem is that NA couldn't expose it as TSM's problem. Which means that TSM can't have faith in any future strategy it develops to be viable against major international opponents. The Tigers seem to have been exposed now who knows maybe NA will find a way to expose TSM too I hope. Tigers thing seems a bit different because figuring them out was, more or less, "brute force them in lane" which other Korean teams have been able to do. In many ways, that was actually what teams did to TSM at MSI, they just ran over the side lanes while keeping Bjergson in the middle. I have low faith in non-C9 teams replicating that in even mild forms.
No. The Tigers thing was "stall till the lategame and win because we have good scaling lategame champions but a shit early game" and the solution was to ban/pick all the lategame champions and then play aggressive early game. Then you're ahead with harder scaling champions. Because the Tigers can't beat you early game even if they have early game champions and you have lategame champions
The Viktor disable really hurt them as well because he is/was a great mid lane for stalling with very high carry potential. A champion that you would want to pick/ban against them anyway, so having him disabled half the season was like giving everyone else 4 bans.
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After looking through mata ama, I have a feeling that why CN server is so lagging is because they put the server in south China(actually the server is in Shenzhen,maybe that is why I have never had any lag) and all the pros live in East China. Somehow like all of the pros live in west coast but they put the server in Texas.
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On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated.
I would say infrastructure in NA is at least miles better than in EU. Of course still far away from Asia.
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On May 27 2015 09:22 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 09:02 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2015 08:36 thejuju wrote:On May 27 2015 08:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2015 08:10 TheYango wrote:
Gahlo, I don't even know what you're arguing about when even TSM fans painted the picture of Dyrus feeding and "drawing jungle pressure" with the rest of TSM making it back elsewhere. Even at/after IEM that was TSM's apparent "game plan" to people.
What MSI exposed wasn't Dyrus feeding harder than expected, it was that the "make it back elsewhere" gameplan doesn't work when Santorin doesn't work to make that happen, and when Bjergsen doesn't absolutely dumpster enemy mids and carry by himself, and instead is just winning by like 10-ish CS (which is in and of itself respectable at that level of play, it's just that it's totally unreasonable to expect someone to consistently trash lane opponents by 20+ CS and solo-kills at that level of play). This is TSM's problem. But for me the real problem is that NA couldn't expose it as TSM's problem. Which means that TSM can't have faith in any future strategy it develops to be viable against major international opponents. The Tigers seem to have been exposed now who knows maybe NA will find a way to expose TSM too I hope. Tigers thing seems a bit different because figuring them out was, more or less, "brute force them in lane" which other Korean teams have been able to do. In many ways, that was actually what teams did to TSM at MSI, they just ran over the side lanes while keeping Bjergson in the middle. I have low faith in non-C9 teams replicating that in even mild forms. No. The Tigers thing was "stall till the lategame and win because we have good scaling lategame champions but a shit early game" and the solution was to ban/pick all the lategame champions and then play aggressive early game. Then you're ahead with harder scaling champions. Because the Tigers can't beat you early game even if they have early game champions and you have lategame champions The Viktor disable really hurt them as well because he is/was a great mid lane for stalling with very high carry potential. A champion that you would want to pick/ban against them anyway, so having him disabled half the season was like giving everyone else 4 bans.
That isn't really what WE did, its not what KT did (first serioes loss in KR) and defiantly not what SKT did (unless you think the tricked into GE picking Irelia into no toplane bans). I guess Najin kinda did that with the Vayne picks...
So your analysis is kinda silly.
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On May 27 2015 10:15 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 09:22 Goumindong wrote:On May 27 2015 09:02 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2015 08:36 thejuju wrote:On May 27 2015 08:23 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2015 08:10 TheYango wrote:
Gahlo, I don't even know what you're arguing about when even TSM fans painted the picture of Dyrus feeding and "drawing jungle pressure" with the rest of TSM making it back elsewhere. Even at/after IEM that was TSM's apparent "game plan" to people.
What MSI exposed wasn't Dyrus feeding harder than expected, it was that the "make it back elsewhere" gameplan doesn't work when Santorin doesn't work to make that happen, and when Bjergsen doesn't absolutely dumpster enemy mids and carry by himself, and instead is just winning by like 10-ish CS (which is in and of itself respectable at that level of play, it's just that it's totally unreasonable to expect someone to consistently trash lane opponents by 20+ CS and solo-kills at that level of play). This is TSM's problem. But for me the real problem is that NA couldn't expose it as TSM's problem. Which means that TSM can't have faith in any future strategy it develops to be viable against major international opponents. The Tigers seem to have been exposed now who knows maybe NA will find a way to expose TSM too I hope. Tigers thing seems a bit different because figuring them out was, more or less, "brute force them in lane" which other Korean teams have been able to do. In many ways, that was actually what teams did to TSM at MSI, they just ran over the side lanes while keeping Bjergson in the middle. I have low faith in non-C9 teams replicating that in even mild forms. No. The Tigers thing was "stall till the lategame and win because we have good scaling lategame champions but a shit early game" and the solution was to ban/pick all the lategame champions and then play aggressive early game. Then you're ahead with harder scaling champions. Because the Tigers can't beat you early game even if they have early game champions and you have lategame champions The Viktor disable really hurt them as well because he is/was a great mid lane for stalling with very high carry potential. A champion that you would want to pick/ban against them anyway, so having him disabled half the season was like giving everyone else 4 bans. That isn't really what WE did, its not what KT did (first serioes loss in KR) and defiantly not what SKT did (unless you think the tricked into GE picking Irelia into no toplane bans). I guess Najin kinda did that with the Vayne picks... So your analysis is kinda silly.
That is exactly what WE did and what KT did.
Game 2 WE banned Lissandra, Lulu, and Viktor. They took Ezreal away and forced GE into a comp of Rumble, Yasuo, Lee, and Corki. They they played hyper aggressively early and won because they had a harder scaling champions. They did the same thing in game 3.
Each time they banned the hard farming mid lane champions which can stall a game and denied or picked out GET's typical fallback (mid Ezreal)
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WE just banned out comfort champs and exposed that Kuro had a weak champion pool. Yasuo is a shitty champion, but if anything he is a lategame champion, and both times they won with Ahri mid. You might be able to make a case they had slightly better scaling comps, in the games they won; I'd argue they just banned champions that GE was good, took advantage of crappy champ pools, and steamrolled them.
You have to be kidding with harder scaling in the KT series though. Lulu/Sej/Diana/Lucian/Morg vs. Irelia/Jarvan/Cassio/Sivir/Thresh and Lulu/RekSai/Cassio/Kog/Janna vs. Maokai/Sej/Zed/Sivir/Annie. Plus the recently have been losing with the Azir, who is a great waveclear hard, farming, champ. Your narrative is too complicated, when "stomp them early" is simpler and equally (more) valid.
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On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated.
There was a reddit post not long ago about how most NA pros come from the west coast because they have low ping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest entries into LCS that haven't been from the west coast are Quas, Meteos, Sneaky, Sheep, and Turtle. Three of them are number 1 best player at their position in the league without much debate. Turtle was a solo queue god. The newest entry from over a year ago, Sheep, is a support which isn't a mechanically demanding roll. Then there's this graph that shows the lower ping you have the higher rank you are. It also shows EUW averaging a much lower ping all around.
http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tier
No wonder NA doesn't have any talent. The majority of the population is playing with high ping.
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On May 27 2015 11:32 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated. There was a reddit post not long ago about how most NA pros come from the west coast because they have low ping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest entries into LCS that haven't been from the west coast are Quas, Meteos, Sneaky, Sheep, and Turtle. Three of them are number 1 best player at their position in the league without much debate. Turtle was a solo queue god. The newest entry from over a year ago, Sheep, is a support which isn't a mechanically demanding roll. Then there's this graph that shows the lower ping you have the higher rank you are. It also shows EUW averaging a much lower ping all around. http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tierNo wonder NA doesn't have any talent. The majority of the population is playing with high ping.
+ streaming culture.
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On May 27 2015 11:45 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 11:32 Sonnington wrote:On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated. There was a reddit post not long ago about how most NA pros come from the west coast because they have low ping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest entries into LCS that haven't been from the west coast are Quas, Meteos, Sneaky, Sheep, and Turtle. Three of them are number 1 best player at their position in the league without much debate. Turtle was a solo queue god. The newest entry from over a year ago, Sheep, is a support which isn't a mechanically demanding roll. Then there's this graph that shows the lower ping you have the higher rank you are. It also shows EUW averaging a much lower ping all around. http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tierNo wonder NA doesn't have any talent. The majority of the population is playing with high ping. + streaming culture.
Out of curiosity, who do you think is being held back from going pro because they're streaming? Voyboy is really the only one I can think of. I don't pay much attention to streaming though.
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On May 27 2015 11:32 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated. There was a reddit post not long ago about how most NA pros come from the west coast because they have low ping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest entries into LCS that haven't been from the west coast are Quas, Meteos, Sneaky, Sheep, and Turtle. Three of them are number 1 best player at their position in the league without much debate. Turtle was a solo queue god. The newest entry from over a year ago, Sheep, is a support which isn't a mechanically demanding roll. Then there's this graph that shows the lower ping you have the higher rank you are. It also shows EUW averaging a much lower ping all around. http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tierNo wonder NA doesn't have any talent. The majority of the population is playing with high ping.
lol @ support not being mechanically demanding
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On May 27 2015 12:11 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 11:52 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 27 2015 11:32 Sonnington wrote:On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated. There was a reddit post not long ago about how most NA pros come from the west coast because they have low ping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest entries into LCS that haven't been from the west coast are Quas, Meteos, Sneaky, Sheep, and Turtle. Three of them are number 1 best player at their position in the league without much debate. Turtle was a solo queue god. The newest entry from over a year ago, Sheep, is a support which isn't a mechanically demanding roll. Then there's this graph that shows the lower ping you have the higher rank you are. It also shows EUW averaging a much lower ping all around. http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tierNo wonder NA doesn't have any talent. The majority of the population is playing with high ping. lol @ support not being mechanically demanding Mechanics not restricted by role but by champ (I'm agreeing with you) Also anyone else having to log on twice because the first time it's failing and league shutting down? This started happening to me on the weekend.
Yeah, same issue.
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On May 27 2015 11:51 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 11:45 Gahlo wrote:On May 27 2015 11:32 Sonnington wrote:On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated. There was a reddit post not long ago about how most NA pros come from the west coast because they have low ping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest entries into LCS that haven't been from the west coast are Quas, Meteos, Sneaky, Sheep, and Turtle. Three of them are number 1 best player at their position in the league without much debate. Turtle was a solo queue god. The newest entry from over a year ago, Sheep, is a support which isn't a mechanically demanding roll. Then there's this graph that shows the lower ping you have the higher rank you are. It also shows EUW averaging a much lower ping all around. http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tierNo wonder NA doesn't have any talent. The majority of the population is playing with high ping. + streaming culture. Out of curiosity, who do you think is being held back from going pro because they're streaming? Voyboy is really the only one I can think of. I don't pay much attention to streaming though.
It comes down to basically this. On one hand a players has to live with a bunch of other dudes and practice crazy hours just to remain competitive, let alone win. On the other, they could stream and make their own hours that could earn them comparable, if not more, money than if they were in the pro scene. At the very worst, I'm sure there's some streamers that could be pro but take a moderate pay cut for a better quality of living.
In EU, I don't see there being much of a streaming culture. Hell, Nightblue wakes up to stream at 4AM when he's in Cali to take advantage of the dearth of EU streamers.
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On May 27 2015 12:11 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 11:52 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 27 2015 11:32 Sonnington wrote:On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated. There was a reddit post not long ago about how most NA pros come from the west coast because they have low ping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest entries into LCS that haven't been from the west coast are Quas, Meteos, Sneaky, Sheep, and Turtle. Three of them are number 1 best player at their position in the league without much debate. Turtle was a solo queue god. The newest entry from over a year ago, Sheep, is a support which isn't a mechanically demanding roll. Then there's this graph that shows the lower ping you have the higher rank you are. It also shows EUW averaging a much lower ping all around. http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tierNo wonder NA doesn't have any talent. The majority of the population is playing with high ping. lol @ support not being mechanically demanding Mechanics not restricted by role but by champ (I'm agreeing with you) Also anyone else having to log on twice because the first time it's failing and league shutting down? This started happening to me on the weekend.
That's not untrue. Inherently the roll is less mechanically demanding than mid, top, or ADC. You can make the case jungle is less demanding.
Mechanics is a rather broad term. When I talked about mechanics, I'm talking about accurately clicking the mouse and keys at the proper times. Because support isn't required to farm and isn't focused as heavily there are fewer opportunities to make bad mechanical decisions and they aren't punished as heavily. This is from someone who plays a lot of support.
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Someone start a petition to get SmashGizbro into that All chat LCS youtube thing with the corgi.
Just ain't right without him, I tells ya.
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On May 27 2015 12:52 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 12:11 JimmiC wrote:On May 27 2015 11:52 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 27 2015 11:32 Sonnington wrote:On May 27 2015 08:56 petered wrote:
Every time I hear the "inside story" about NA teams it furthers my opinion that team management/coaches are holding back NA more than the players. I think it is an environment rife with nepotism and incompetence.
This isn't to say that NA players are all superstars being held back, but I think the impact of management and coaches is vastly underrated. There was a reddit post not long ago about how most NA pros come from the west coast because they have low ping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest entries into LCS that haven't been from the west coast are Quas, Meteos, Sneaky, Sheep, and Turtle. Three of them are number 1 best player at their position in the league without much debate. Turtle was a solo queue god. The newest entry from over a year ago, Sheep, is a support which isn't a mechanically demanding roll. Then there's this graph that shows the lower ping you have the higher rank you are. It also shows EUW averaging a much lower ping all around. http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tierNo wonder NA doesn't have any talent. The majority of the population is playing with high ping. lol @ support not being mechanically demanding Mechanics not restricted by role but by champ (I'm agreeing with you) Also anyone else having to log on twice because the first time it's failing and league shutting down? This started happening to me on the weekend. That's not untrue. Inherently the roll is less mechanically demanding than mid, top, or ADC. You can make the case jungle is less demanding. Mechanics is a rather broad term. When I talked about mechanics, I'm talking about accurately clicking the mouse and keys at the proper times. Because support isn't required to farm and isn't focused as heavily there are fewer opportunities to make bad mechanical decisions and they aren't punished as heavily. This is from someone who plays a lot of support.
Less clicks =/= less mechanically demanding or less skill. I can make the argument that since you have less clicks, each one is therefore relatively more important.
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EPT
