EPTis it rolled into one? is one applied before the other? in what order, if so?
[Patch 5.8] Ryze Rework General Discussion - Page 34
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Celial
2602 Posts
is it rolled into one? is one applied before the other? in what order, if so? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 10 2015 14:36 Kaethis wrote: What I think Jek's point is and which I agree with is that there are a lot of situations where the difference made by Recovery early on is not an amount that breaks the deal between 'gank' or 'not gank', which makes it pretty much useless, whereas Unyielding is always going to get you something. Obviously the hp regen mastery is gonna regen you more hp, but on a lot of junglers and particularly on the stronger ones picking Unyielding is gonna gain you more over the course of a game. what? why would 24 hp make a difference between a gank and a not gank but then 24 hp makes a difference in a teamfight? but recovery gives you hp in teamfights too. Unless you still full hp at all points meaning you dont farm at all any time near a teamfight and dont get poked then recovery is still as good as unyielding. in any case on junglers people take bladed armour and enchanted armour so they dont even get recovery | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
That's the case of a bunch of people with steroids, with a notable exception being Shyvana (12th natural armour at level 1, 3rd behind Sejuani and Graves if steroids are taken into account; middle of the pack @18 but less than 2 armour away from the top 30%, and she's only behind Sejuani if you add passives (even Jayce's stupid high melee steroid doesn't reach her); it all goes through the window when she gets in dragon form). HP-wise she's ~15th at level 1 and 11th (with only 85 HP differential between the 2nd and her) despite her huge-ass resistances. Interestingly enough, Jayce isn't that far behind. When he's in melee form he has top 5 armour and the highest MR in the game, along with a top 15 HP pool (less than 200 HP away from the 2nd). Combine that with lifesteal and W and it's not surprise he can be so hard to kill even "without" tankiness. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On May 10 2015 19:36 kongoline wrote: but unyielding works after armor/mr and apparently procs vs DoTs on every tick which is pretty big considering most junglers are melee and reduce 2 dmg Enchanted armor is better. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Do you have examples or math to back that up? Also, what's the mastery point you're sacrificing for unyielding, so we can compare 3 points vs 3 instead of 3 vs 2. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On May 10 2015 20:01 kongoline wrote: you are still sacrificing 2 points which wont do jack shit till the very late game where u gain maybe 10 armor from it and thats assuming u go full tank which i often dont Really? Because I'm pretty sure most junglers take armor seals, so they're getting something from it right from level 1. Somebody humor me and do a couple first jungle clears on a champion, one with block and one with enchanted armor, and tell me the HP difference. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
As for pro players I usually check masteries/runes only of top korean teams cuz i trust they actually test their stuff with coaches and do the math, like they were one of the first to use expose weakness on everyone when it was bugged and it took few weeks before western pro players started copying them | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On May 10 2015 20:44 kongoline wrote: in this case soloQ or competitive is irrelevant you dont have to be rocket scientist to see enchanted armor blows(unless u play something like rammus with huge bonus armor/mr) and only provides meaningful amount of stats super late game besides they use those masteries while laddering too, most of the time i can judge which mastery is better but it is hard to compare value of unyielding vs bladed armor. guess i will just stick on using it only on AoE clearers like malph or amumu and skip it on heavy early game gankers/duelists As for pro players I usually check masteries/runes only of top korean teams cuz i trust they actually test their stuff with coaches and do the math, like they were one of the first to use expose weakness on everyone when it was bugged and it took few weeks before western pro players started copying them And exposed weakness got fixed and there's still Koreans using it. zzzz | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
On the Unyielding/Recovery discussion: You have a few choices if you're going down the defense tree. First off is getting Block/Unyielding. Unyielding reduces all incoming damage by 2 (for melee), which is insane when you think about it. If this gained you 200 hp or more per fight midgame I wouldn't be suprised considering how much random damage you take from shit like cinderhulk and random aoe flying by. Block is not nearly as good but still very relevant. The thing about these talents is that, sure, they don't help you all that much when Jinx is autoattacking you for 600 but it does help against janna who's just randomly whacking you because she might as well. Tough Skin is probably the next best option in these two tiers for junglers (I'm assuming Vereran's Scars are mandatory), but if you can clear the jungle on high hp anyhow I can see dropping this too (warwick comes to mind). Overall this will most likely give you the highest amount of effective hp back over a game. Bladed armor's shit. Enchanted Armour's great if you have a lot of armour or have other % defense steroids (because they stack multiplicatively). Otherwise, meh. Junglers oftentimes get cinderhulk or warrior into some other hp item like Glory or something like hexdrinker, which means the talent doesn't do much for you untill 3 items in, at which point most games will be over. Overall, generally better left to toplaners. Recovery gives you 1/2 hp per 5. That's ok, but less good then Tough Skin will be for jungling and less good then Block would be for fights. Considering you probably don't want to spend more points on these two tiers then you need to, I just don't see the reason. You're picking this over Tough Skin or Block, and if you're picking it over Block you're also locking yourself out of unyielding (which is most likely the single most efficient point in the defense tree hp wise). So overall you can pick: All fighting: Block/Unyielding with Enchanted Armour or Recovery. All jungling: Recovery with Tough Skin, leaving you with a point hanging. for Block or Bladed armor, but awkward. mix: Block/unyielding with Tough Skin is most likely most efficient. Overall, you don't want to spend too much here and Unyielding is crazy good, so I don't see the reason to get recovery, because Tough Skin gets you more while jungling and Block gets you more later on. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On May 10 2015 11:28 Ketara wrote: Jek you are so fucking wrong. Let's say you gank once every minute, which nobody does. That's 12 HP from recovery. Its more effective HP because that is then multiplied by your resists,so I'd really go more like 15. In order for unyielding to be better than that, in every one of these ganks you're doing every single minute you have to take 16 autos from champions, assuming the actual gank lasts less than 5 seconds. In what world do you take 16 autos in a gank? Stop being so wrong please. Block and Unyielding both works post resists, so there's no reason to consider the healed HP as more EHP that what is getting blocked - unless you're being hit by true damage of course. Unyielding/Block will block off 4 damage on an auto attack and 2 from an ability, which means it comes down to 6 autos and even less if you count the abilities you will be hit by. Every single jungler on Probuilds.net take Unyielding, and it lists soloQ games - so the whole competetive vs soloQ argument doesn't really hold (which I'd also like to add to the quote below). So they'd be "so fucking wrong" too I suppose. On May 10 2015 20:22 Ketara wrote: There's a reason why pro junglers don't take bladed armor and buy sightstone and trailblazer on every champion too. Its because they're playing professional games that are absolutely nothing like the sort of jungle games that you might be playing in, and have nothing at all to do with any sort of "what mastery is better" discussion in GD. If you're considering to take Enchanted Armor since you took Bladed Armor or whatever, you're better off taking Block since it's actually useful early game as it works off all damage types and not just the ones you've managed to get high enough to actually gain a single bonus armor/MR point from while it still scales indirectly off armor/MR as it reduce damage post resists. On May 10 2015 19:57 Ketara wrote: I don't think its a huge loss in duelling power early/mid game. Do you have examples or math to back that up? Also, what's the mastery point you're sacrificing for unyielding, so we can compare 3 points vs 3 instead of 3 vs 2. The standard is 2 block, 2 tough skin into unyielding and the obvious health boni. Enchanted Armor is absolutely trash until you're like 40+ minutes into the game, Recovery is sort of the only of the two choices you can compare to Block/Unyielding. Block/Unyielding will net you a lot more than what you've recovered from Recovery extremely fast (even if we ignore dot damage, in which case there'd be absolutely no comparison), while still having an actually meaningful scaling to boot. EDIT: Kaethis said everything better. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal. | ||
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