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On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best.
Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake.
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uh Blitz + Kalista is really nasty if you do get caught, like I said earlier your only way to eat a hook and live is to be ahead or have the hook happen before level 4, if you take lvl2 hook damage + all of kalista's skills you are dead even if you flash
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Blitz does fine against Janna in my experience, but I feel every time I do win that lane, it's mostly out of Janna's misplay in lane.
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On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake.
That can be said for basically every single match up.
The fact of the matter is that Janna does not have a lot of good tools to punish Blitzcrank.
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On January 12 2015 07:27 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake. That can be said for basically every single match up. The fact of the matter is that Janna does not have a lot of good tools to punish Blitzcrank.
I mean, what tools do you really need to deal with blitz? You just farm lane it out vs Blitz.
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poke damage that can be used thru minions, like enhanced auto attacks(janna has this), escape (for the purposes of Blitz janna has none), counter engage potential (ali, old taric, leona)
brush checks like Zyra are also nice
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On January 12 2015 07:11 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
How can he even E Vayne without flashing if she's way faster than he is and has tumble, wtf.
I'm even interested in how did it happen now.
1) She isn't faster than blitz unless she is running directly away from him (also assume he has Q at level 1, so you angle accordingly, slowing you down further). If you're auto attacking then you're slower by a good deal. Unfortuantley we don't have good data on champions auto attack animation speed (and how its effected by attack speed) but its very much not free and it most certainly covers the 1.5% difference in their move speeds (which is gone if blitz has the MS bonus from utility and vayne does not)
2) If you're assuming blitz has hook, as soon as he gets into or around around the minion wave you're standing in it and trying to auto him. So he moves to the side and circles around then comes in towards you forcing you into your creep wave. If you kite back to your tower you leave your minion wave safety and are a threat to be hooked. If you kite the other way or towards river you run into Kalista who can easily keep you at bay due to her dash and then you get pincered. You lose both of these trades due to the higher damage of Kalista(at level 1, with E, Kalista needs 1 stack to do more damage than vaynes tumble, plus her E slows) and the potential hook of blitzcrank/higher base damage/armor/AD. So blitz eventually closes the distance into your creep wave, and you get pincered.
On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake.
Yes, but that isn't true against Vayne. Who neither has the burst to make Kalista pay, or higher damage to win a sustained fight or the abilities to get away early. Janna does not help since Kalista's dash negates her slow and makes it harder to land tornado's and negates janna's speed advantage (plus Kalista's slow is stronger than Janna's, even if Janna has it at level 1, which she will not)
Edit: Basically a blitz lane against Janna when janna's AD doesn't have a way to fight early. The Blitz team can just push fights early. You aren't able to "farm it out" because blitz won't let you.
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Janna's pretty ridiculous at the moment, definitely the #1 support and almost banworthy if there weren't so many ridiculous mid and toplaners (+rek sai) to ban.
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On January 12 2015 07:27 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake. That can be said for basically every single match up. The fact of the matter is that Janna does not have a lot of good tools to punish Blitzcrank.
Hybrid pen, AP blues, HP Quint, Armor Yellow. Go play with Graves/Corki and then say that Janna cannot punish Blitz. Unless you get hooked under tower you can win every trade unless you or your AD misplays horribly, individually Janna doesn't counter Blitz, but botlane is about 2v2 counters, not 1v1 counters, so saying Janna vs Blitz is bad for Janna makes no sense because if the Blitz has an Ashe, and you have a Corki you'll win lane. But if you have Vayne and Blitz has Graves you'll probably lose lane, can't say Blitz counters any support other then Sona because huge hitbox + really squishy + no real peel, but thats an exception.
On January 12 2015 07:39 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake. Yes, but that isn't true against Vayne. Who neither has the burst to make Kalista pay, or higher damage to win a sustained fight or the abilities to get away early. Janna does not help since Kalista's dash negates her slow and makes it harder to land tornado's and negates janna's speed advantage (plus Kalista's slow is stronger than Janna's, even if Janna has it at level 1, which she will not) Edit: Basically a blitz lane against Janna when janna's AD doesn't have a way to fight early. The Blitz team can just push fights early. You aren't able to "farm it out" because blitz won't let you.
Is it that hard to let them shove to tower and just sit there and last-hit? You won't win lane, but you won't lose it either and Vayne will out-scale Kalista anyways. There is no reason for you to let level 1 Blitz bully you for a fast level 2 if thats where your losing lane, and if you put yourself in a situation where they can freeze and you cannot cs you've misplayed the lane anyways. Thats not a match-up thing, thats a personal lane control thing.
Oh, and Vayne can trade with Kalista. Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade. Really, Vayne her trades are fairly strong, its her poke and range that makes her weak. If you have issues with playing vs Kalista or Blitz you can just zone off the support and shield your AD to make her win the trade while you keep the Blitz busy.
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On January 12 2015 07:43 Itchy7x wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:27 Sufficiency wrote:On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake. That can be said for basically every single match up. The fact of the matter is that Janna does not have a lot of good tools to punish Blitzcrank. Hybrid pen, AP blues, HP Quint, Armor Yellow. Go play with Graves/Corki and then say that Janna cannot punish Blitz. Unless you get hooked under tower you can win every trade unless you or your AD misplays horribly, individually Janna doesn't counter Blitz, but botlane is about 2v2 counters, not 1v1 counters, so saying Janna vs Blitz is bad for Janna makes no sense because if the Blitz has an Ashe, and you have a Corki you'll win lane. But if you have Vayne and Blitz has Graves you'll probably lose lane, can't say Blitz counters any support other then Sona because huge hitbox + really squishy + no real peel, but thats an exception. Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:39 Goumindong wrote:On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake. Yes, but that isn't true against Vayne. Who neither has the burst to make Kalista pay, or higher damage to win a sustained fight or the abilities to get away early. Janna does not help since Kalista's dash negates her slow and makes it harder to land tornado's and negates janna's speed advantage (plus Kalista's slow is stronger than Janna's, even if Janna has it at level 1, which she will not) Edit: Basically a blitz lane against Janna when janna's AD doesn't have a way to fight early. The Blitz team can just push fights early. You aren't able to "farm it out" because blitz won't let you. Is it that hard to let them shove to tower and just sit there and last-hit? You won't win lane, but you won't lose it either and Vayne will out-scale Kalista anyways. There is no reason for you to let level 1 Blitz bully you for a fast level 2, and if you put yourself in a situation where they can freeze and you cannot cs you've misplayed the lane anyways. Thats not a match-up thing, thats a personal lane control thing.
HP seals and Armor quints tend to be better for supports. You gain 3.78 armor in exchange for 6 health.
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the fact that he was stuck with a Vayne is a staple to his argument lol
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On January 12 2015 07:50 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:43 Itchy7x wrote:On January 12 2015 07:27 Sufficiency wrote:On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake. That can be said for basically every single match up. The fact of the matter is that Janna does not have a lot of good tools to punish Blitzcrank. Hybrid pen, AP blues, HP Quint, Armor Yellow. Go play with Graves/Corki and then say that Janna cannot punish Blitz. Unless you get hooked under tower you can win every trade unless you or your AD misplays horribly, individually Janna doesn't counter Blitz, but botlane is about 2v2 counters, not 1v1 counters, so saying Janna vs Blitz is bad for Janna makes no sense because if the Blitz has an Ashe, and you have a Corki you'll win lane. But if you have Vayne and Blitz has Graves you'll probably lose lane, can't say Blitz counters any support other then Sona because huge hitbox + really squishy + no real peel, but thats an exception. On January 12 2015 07:39 Goumindong wrote:On January 12 2015 07:20 Itchy7x wrote:On January 12 2015 07:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Janna vs Blitz is a pretty mediocre matchup for Janna at best. Eh, Janna can disengage pretty well so she can save herself or AD from the all-in (probably lose the trade though). The main thing is that 99% of the Blitzcrank match-ups are skill dependant, so if you can dodge hooks you win, you cannot dodge hooks you lose. Its that simple. But Kalista's laning is garbage because her range is so low, she cannot actually respond to poke well enough by any of the popular AD champs unless the one that is poking makes a mistake. Yes, but that isn't true against Vayne. Who neither has the burst to make Kalista pay, or higher damage to win a sustained fight or the abilities to get away early. Janna does not help since Kalista's dash negates her slow and makes it harder to land tornado's and negates janna's speed advantage (plus Kalista's slow is stronger than Janna's, even if Janna has it at level 1, which she will not) Edit: Basically a blitz lane against Janna when janna's AD doesn't have a way to fight early. The Blitz team can just push fights early. You aren't able to "farm it out" because blitz won't let you. Is it that hard to let them shove to tower and just sit there and last-hit? You won't win lane, but you won't lose it either and Vayne will out-scale Kalista anyways. There is no reason for you to let level 1 Blitz bully you for a fast level 2, and if you put yourself in a situation where they can freeze and you cannot cs you've misplayed the lane anyways. Thats not a match-up thing, thats a personal lane control thing. HP seals and Armor quints tend to be better for supports. You gain 3.78 armor in exchange for 6 health.
Oh shit yeah, I forgot what my exact Quint + Yellow combination is, but yeah Armor quints > HP quints.
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You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade
At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
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On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote:
You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness.
I pretty much never look at challenger winrates because the sample size is so small. Diamond is the way to go.
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On January 12 2015 07:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote:
You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy.
Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only.
According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness. I pretty much never look at challenger winrates because the sample size is so small. Diamond is the way to go.
I cannot use diamond because the data is not available. However, there are 211 recorded games between blitz and janna, which means that the sample size is not so low that we should be too skeptical of the results. (Std error on this is about 3.4%)
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On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote:You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy. Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only. According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness. Show nested quote +Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying.
Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
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noob question : where does the "donations" made on streams go ?
Other question : Nowadays i encounter a lot of ranged/apc top, such as cassio / lissandra/rumble (even saw some ahri and urgot). I don't have a clue on how to beat them, and often if i die once, it's like game over. What kind of champion can i take for at least have a "no 100%dodge/stress" early laning phase ?
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 12 2015 08:06 derc wrote:
noob question : where does the "donations" made on streams go ?
Other question : Nowadays i encounter a lot of ranged/apc top, such as cassio / lissandra/rumble (even saw some ahri and urgot). I don't have a clue on how to beat them, and often if i die once, it's like game over. What kind of champion can i take for at least have a "no 100%dodge/stress" early laning phase ?
Gnar is cure for everything.
Irelia, Jarvan The Fourth.
Jarvan IV might suck against Urgot early though, call jungler and dunk him later.
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When I used to play Lissandra (was a while ago), Kayle was the bane of my existence.I could never win that match up and it gave her a free ride into her beast late game.Don't know how that match up goes nowadays though.
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On January 12 2015 08:04 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 07:55 Goumindong wrote:You cannot both let them shove to the tower and also get level 2 first. So no, that is not easy. Its hard to find stats on support matchups. Only Elophant has any and its challenger+ only. According to their stats Janna while sporting a global 65% win rate in challenger has a 43% win rate against blitz. Vanye is more evenly matched than Kalista, at 49.7%(diamond, from lolking). This is not a lane that Vayne/Janna have an easy time in at all. Janna's abilities are nearly entirely negated by both of the kits, and vayne just plain does less damage early and possess none of the abilities which exploit kalista's weakness. Unless the Vayne is stupid and tanks 8 AA's and creeps during the trade she can AA 3 times then back out, Janna can zone off Blitz and shield Vayne so she wins the trade At level 1 Kalista with E will do more than Janna's shield more damage in 3 auto attacks than Vayne will with 3 auto attacks, Janna shield, and tumble. If Kalista decides to keep attacking (which she can because of her dash) Vayne will 100% lose that trade. Vayne cannot back out without taking rend damage due to its range. She can only win an all-in in which Kalista does not use rend before dying. Because the 1v1 support matchup is what decides the end result of the game.Cool story bro.
Well, technically, as much as anything else decides the end result of the game, yes. Like the mid vs mid matchup matters and the top vs top matchup matters. Janna is uniquely bad against blitz, she has nothing to save an ally from a hook(or herself really). She has no way to prevent hooks. She has no way to counter engage a hook. She doesn't want to be hooked herself so she cannot body block. Etc etc. She can win, but its not an easy fight.
More realistically, since i was talking about the 2v2 bottom lane matchup then that absolutely does effect the end result of the game, since the enemy AD getting ahead, and your AD being behind is basically a straight gold lead, which well, we are pretty certain has some effect on winning right?
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EPT
